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Old     (k_poulsen)      Join Date: Mar 2008       04-04-2008, 11:13 AM Reply   
Hello I was just reading through some of the posts here and I am confused as to the skim vs surf style. Could anyone one inform me. I thought it was just wakesurfing. Also I see that they have wakesurfing tournaments around the country. That is awesome, I did not know the sport had evolved that far. I would love to hear how the divisions are made up, some details on how it is judged etc. I am familar with waterski events and barefooting events so I have some experience with that.
Old     (new_surfer)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-04-2008, 11:33 AM Reply   
I just recently asked the same question on board styles. It seems complicated to me. I thought it was just free riding behind the boat, but it is far more evolved from what you or myself thought Kris.
Old    surfdad            04-04-2008, 11:46 AM Reply   
This thread from about last year is probably the most exhaustive and authoritative discussion on the subject. You'll probably want to read all of those 175 some-odd posts first. :-) If after that you still have any questions I'm sure folks will answer away :-)

The AWSA has just finished revamping the rules to be more consistent (Thank you Roy Gordon and all), but principally divisions are suggestions based upon age, skill level and gender. There are provisions that allow an organizer to host divisions for longboard, surf and skim style, but that isn't required and any combination thereof that best suits the organizer's needs is available.

We are in the process of developing a judges training document/database...it isn't finalized, as yet, but the intent is to make it available online so that competitors and judges alike can have a consistent understanding of how tricks should be judged.

Principally, there are three components involved in judging tricks - a VERY brief summary of eash - that I snitched from the current iteration of the rules:

11.1 Execution
Execution criterion is an assessment of how well the wakesurfing maneuver was performed. Execution should be applied to the body of maneuvers a surfer completes or attempts. Successful tricks poorly executed should be judged lower than successful tricks masterfully executed.

11.2 Intensity
The intensity criterion is an assessment of aggressiveness of the performance. Higher Aerial tricks are more “intense” than tricks completed with less air. Carving maneuvers that are performed more rapidly, in tighter arcs, throwing more water, and that are more difficult and intense. Other attributes may also be attached to intensity.

11.3 Composition
The composition criterion is an assessment of how well rounded the performance was. Good composition should include a range of tricks, total number of tricks completed, style appropriate tricks, division appropriate tricks, compound tricks, unique tricks with grabs, personal flair, or other embellishments

This is the only document that I am aware of that has been published and distributed, at will and also encourages input so that refinements can be made. That means yell at Roy :-)

There maybe other rule sets and judging criteria in use.

All that said, Kris...is there any possibility that you would be interested in hosting a small grassroots contest in your neck of the woods?
Old    surfdad            04-04-2008, 11:50 AM Reply   
Oh shoot I didn't cut and paste the link!

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/424627.html?1189547165
Old     (k_poulsen)      Join Date: Mar 2008       04-04-2008, 11:25 PM Reply   
Jeff I just read some of the post from the link that you gave. Can I say what a joke. I have been a barefoot and 3 event judge in the past with the ASWA and am familiar with the tournament process. I do not understand the 3 different styles (skim, surf and longboard) that are allowed. I am in total agreement that there needs to be division of ability level, age, gender etc. But it seems to me that dividing it up by the board size is crazy. That would be the same as dividing slalom events into those with 64 inch skis or less are in one division, those with 70 inch skis or more are in another and those with 66 or 68 somewhere in the middle. Or dividing barefooting into those with bigger feet and smaller feet. Is the bottom line not to get behind the boat throw the rope in and the person that can do the most, with the most amplitude and degree of difficulty the winner. I could care less what he or she is riding on skim board, surf board or 2x4. I have be around the AWSA long enough to know that politics plays a major role and I assume that that is what is happening here. Someone with some influnce could not compete so they changed the rules or added a new division if I had to guess. Sorry to be so bold as I have only been on this forum for a short time and am pretty new to the whole wakesurfing thing, but I think that whoever is making these type of decisions needs to take a good look at what they are doing if you want to get people involved in tournaments. My opinion, take it for what it is worth.
Old     (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       04-05-2008, 6:15 AM Reply   
Kris--- As a Competing wakesurfer I think that is the best comparison I have heard yet. This sport isn't big enough to be dividing into categories based on board size. There was alot of talk about them trying to do divisions at worlds last year and I think that is a joke. There are only a handful of big sponsors kicking prize $ for Worlds. If we were to divide into little division on boards size I think everyone that won there division would get $100. And it isn't about the money thats not my point, My point is that we all go behind the same boat with the same objective in mind. Throw the rope and do the best tricks I can do without falling. And he who prevails is the winner. There is no demand on what board you have to ride, That is simply your choice, If you choose a bigger board similiar to a surf board than you have to deal with not being able to do as many tricks. And there are guys that kill it on a surf style board "sleigh, Chase" but they are still limited to there tricks compared to someone on a skim style board. And then were would the "hybrid" boards fit into these categories Skim or surf there as small if not smaller than a skim board but thicker and have big fins on it. There is way to much Gray area to decide all these division I agree with Kris and think that this will kill the sport rather than help push it. Not trying to down anyone this is just my opinion and I am simply just voicing it.

Drew Danielo}

(Message edited by ollies_drew on April 05, 2008)

(Message edited by ollies_drew on April 05, 2008)
Old    surfdad            04-05-2008, 6:21 AM Reply   
We agreed somewhat with that sentiment - changed it mostly to a style component and got rid of all the dimensions etc - I think that is what is discussed in that thread had you taken the time to read it - but I don't suppose that was your intent?. What I always find interesting in responses such as yours as that you completely omit the one salient point. If an organizer does NOT want to offer those divisions then they don't have to. So for example if you want just wakesurfing you can do that.

Let me repeat that - if an organizer doesn't want to offer style divisions they don't have to.

So what is the deal? :-) You are saying that no one should have any freedom to organize as they see fit? Why? Give me one good legitimate reason that an organizer should have their hands tied? Other than it seems to fit in with some boat manufacturers or board manufacturers conceptualtization as to how a contest should be run that fits with a marketing plan.

Regardless...we understand that there are folks who feel there should be no style divisions and respect that 100%. As such, if you wanted to stage a contest and not offer those, it would be fine.

I think what is most telling is that for some reason the opposition to this doesn't like the freedom to allow folks to organize as they see fit and I have yet to see any reason other than "I don't like it".
Old    surfdad            04-05-2008, 6:31 AM Reply   
Drew, I didn't see your response in there. Centurion will do as they see fit as it SHOULD be.

Again, the two of you are not conversant with the rule set and are arging a point that doesn't exist.

I think that you both are misguided and wish only to exercise control. I say get involved don't argue with nonsense that isn't applicable. Stage contests, raise money, get more folks involved. Don't argue against freedoms.
Old     (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       04-05-2008, 7:56 AM Reply   
Jeff, Mine was a little mis leading or I left some stuff out. I do agree for grass roots events the Organizer has the right to do what they would like. I also agree that for anyone doing contest or anything to promote wakesurfing it is great and they should break it down however they want. I guess I was just leaning more to the side of Worlds. And as you said Centurion is going to run it how they say. But I heard last year that the WWSA was getting involved and was trying to do a Skim Pro and a Surf Pro. This is the part I was against. It is a "pro" contest meaning bring what you ride and
do your best. That was the part I was talking about. As for the WWSA I think it is a cool organization and they are trying to help the sport. I just think in a generalization simple is better the less we try to control about wakesurfing the more fun it is to enjoy. Really it is just about getting a boat full of friends and going out and having the time of your life on the water and in the sun. Not trying to sound like I must be controling Like I said these are my opinions and we all are just sharing them on here.

Drew Danielo
Old    surfdad            04-05-2008, 8:26 AM Reply   
Cool Drew,

The AWSA only asked for a separate women's master division. There was discussion amongst a ton of folks, for a surf and skim split at the pro level but that was never the offical AWSA request. As you point out there was little money to be spread amongst a BUNCH of divisions. Centurion has made an effort to accomodate as many different "groups" as possible and added an amateur division skim and surf, but there wasn't any participation for longboard.

I think it's fine for advocates of the divisions to ask for the divisions. In my opinion this is good for an organizer to know, if there is an overwhelming demand - they'll want to hear that. I also think the organizer has the right to say - I don't have the time or money. For advocates of the divisions, you have to bring something to the table and that is MONEY, PARTICIPATION and well wishes. Not just a desire to win a division. Otherwise, the expectation from an organizer's standpoint, is all the extra divisions are just a pain and add expense.

Certainly as you point out a "pro" level contest can be the best of the best in whatever style. If that is how Centurion sees it, they should have that freedom and not be encumbered by some rules that REQUIRE them to split...the rule set reflects that and allows this exact scenario.

Thanks for your opinions and also for your efforts to grow and support the sport.
Old     (k_poulsen)      Join Date: Mar 2008       04-05-2008, 9:22 AM Reply   
Can I say wow. Apparently being new to the wakesurf thing I was not aware this was such a political football. I think that I have discovered who the person that I spoke of before might be. Please feel free to have an event any way you like. Divide your divisions into what ever makes it so you can feel good about it. If you are the organizer you can do what ever you would like. To be honest I really do not care how you do things. It was just a simple question. By the way Drew thank you for the sane response. As I have come to find out you are pretty much the man when it comes to wakesurfing. I agree with you bring what ever you want to ride and let the chips fall where they may. I have a video from my local shop that has you riding in it, I did not know you could even do half the stuff you are doing on it. You have definitely inspired me an my sons just from watching you. You obviously must care about wakesurfing as I do see many world champions taking time help out others. I assume others are finding it difficult to compete with you and that is what has caused this division. Too bad it is all about having a good time.

I don't want to change subjects but it is my thread and I really hesitate to ask but you and Jeff mention Centurion alot. I assume this is Centurion boats. How does a boat company fit into all this. I am interested because I am looking for a new boat and have a thread that asks about surf boats. If it is going to offend anyone never mind but I really am interested.
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       04-05-2008, 10:25 AM Reply   
Kris,
I assume from your statements regarding waterskiing events that you were around as those sports evolved. I am pretty sure that there was some discussion of equipment in the early years. I am also sure that even though 3 event and barefoot are both done behind a boat on water. Why did they split those divisions? Why are surfing events done in the ocean split between longboard and shortboard? You could ride a longboard in an WCT event but you could not do the same maneuvers. The same is true for a shortboard in a longboard event. They are both done in the ocean on waves right. Why do they have skimboarding contests? Still done in the ocean on waves, right. Why don't they allow barefoot events competitors to have 12" attachments to their feet? Different equipment.
The point of all the discussions in the past was not as you "assume" for political reasons. Winning a "surfstyle" division doesn't let you say that you beat Drew in the "skimstyle" division. The real reason that the rules discussion evolved was to better train judges. The fact is that while some of the tricks completed are the same they are not of the same difficulty when performed on certain style of boards. Some tricks are not currently possible on both "style" boards. The judges must be able to have some knowledge of those differences. Would you have wanted judges scoring a barefoot contest that have no idea how difficult each trick is?
I think for you to come on here and make assumptions about the people involved without knowing the full context is a mistake on your part. We are all here to grow a sport that we love. We have never said that you can't ride any type board you want. Centurion sponsors their "world championships" Drew has won the majority of those events as he should have IMO.
Old     (h20k9)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-05-2008, 10:53 AM Reply   
jeff,props..the revamped rules set up is sweet.after being involved in promoting a couple of wakesurf events,the AWSA guidlines helped make it easy to hold a contest.gracias to the AWSA for all they do.it was the best being able to separate surf and skim(because the rules said i could) for the bettering of the sport.it made surfers step up and ride skims and skimmers step up and try it on a surf board.the best was watching my bro brent edwards who ownes maui skimmers,who has landed barrel rolls in the shore break of the north shore,get eliminated in the first round of surf style.thats when i absolutely knew they had to be judged separately.it also made another class which was just another shot at some more money.another perk for the sport and the wallets of the skim champ and the surf champ aswell as the open champ.two wrongs never make a right.combining them because the low rider count and calling it a best trik contest is weak,i think the underlying issue here is pros specific to one style will get owned in the other and the competitivness of these athletes is whats trynig to keep it from separating.
Old     (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       04-05-2008, 11:28 AM Reply   
Kris, Someone will bash me for this and say I am sponsored and shouldn't post this but oh well, YES I DO RIDE FOR CENTURION BOATS, but if you can call me out on any of this feel free. Centurion was the first boat company to have a world wakesurf championship. 1995 It was won by none other the Tim Lopes. Then they were the ones to see the opportunity and held one in 2003. They have since been THE boat to Tow as well as host and put up alot of money and time to have the World Wakesurf Championship every year. The are the one boat company that has been developing things on the boat just for wakesurfing. i.e. Side Swipe exhaust Keep Carbon Monoxide away from rider. Surf right Hull technology, take any wakeboard and weight them the same and tell me centurion doesn't have a bigger, longer, cleaner wake. Other companies are now starting to try and jump on the bandwagon. If you do your research it all leads to Centurion. Also Kris, A lil FYI I will be out your way at Salt Lake City dealership in July doing a 4 day wakesurf camp. IM me for more information. If I post that to it will cause conflict.
Old     (bluto)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-05-2008, 6:10 PM Reply   
Drew,
What exactly is right surf hull technology that only Centurion has? I thought it was just a reverse rotation prop. I know alot of companies have that. In fact a lot of boats actually allow you to surf both sides without buying a new boat
Old     (norris_laker)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-05-2008, 10:35 PM Reply   
Drew, could you elaborate more on how having different style divisions would "kill the sport rather than help push it". Are you referring to killing the sport for a handful of Pro riders or killing the sport in general for everybody? After seeing how different style divisions worked at the NWL National Championships, I thought it was a good idea that helped promote the sport. Before making a final decision I like to weigh both sides of the argument.

Here is why I like different style divisions:
Most events that my kids have entered have consisted of one and done events. The NWL Nationals had three style divisions. This kept my kids actively involved in the tournament for two full days. I see this as promoting the sport, not killing the sport. There were also two world champion women riders at this event that had extremely different styles of riding. Both of theses surfers competed in all three style division and each one won their preferred style. It was very exciting watching these riders compete against eachother. Again, not sure how this "kills" the sport. More competition and participation in my mind promotes the sports.

BTW, I do mostly agree with you about the World Championship being won by the best rider with whatever board and "style" they chose to ride. What I would like to see is an Skim and Surf division (not base on the board but based on the style of riding) with the winner of each competing with each other in a final showdown for the title of Overall World Champion.
Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-06-2008, 6:18 AM Reply   
"Jeff I just read some of the post from the link that you gave. Can I say what a joke. I have been a barefoot and 3 event judge in the past with the ASWA and am familiar with the tournament process. I do not understand the 3 different styles (skim, surf and longboard) that are allowed. I am in total agreement that there needs to be division of ability level, age, gender etc. But it seems to me that dividing it up by the board size is crazy. That would be the same as dividing slalom events into those with 64 inch skis or less are in one division, those with 70 inch skis or more are in another and those with 66 or 68 somewhere in the middle. Or dividing barefooting into those with bigger feet and smaller feet. Is the bottom line not to get behind the boat throw the rope in and the person that can do the most, with the most amplitude and degree of difficulty the winner. I could care less what he or she is riding on skim board, surf board or 2x4. I have be around the AWSA long enough to know that politics plays a major role and I assume that that is what is happening here. Someone with some influnce could not compete so they changed the rules or added a new division if I had to guess. Sorry to be so bold as I have only been on this forum for a short time and am pretty new to the whole wakesurfing thing, but I think that whoever is making these type of decisions needs to take a good look at what they are doing if you want to get people involved in tournaments. My opinion, take it for what it is worth."

quoted for truth/ insight
Old    surfdad            04-06-2008, 7:08 AM Reply   
I'm glad that you quoted Kris fully because this part of his statement is the most telling:

"and I assume".

The style divisions are just fun, allow more riding time and exposure. Since the rules don't require the divisions, if some organizer TRULY feels that the divisions are done strictly to allow someone to win a division - then that organizr doesn't have to offer the divisions. They can say - NO - ride what you brought and stop being a baby.

However, for those that see the contests as a wonderful time to have more riding time, more access to various boards - THAT organizer can be accomodated too. It amazes me that anyone can't see this last scenario as being "truth" that somehow every organizer who chooses to offer several different divisions is doing it strictly to beat a skimboarder or some specific individual and the only way to counter that is to NOT allow style divisions...that just seems so over-the-top obsessive/paranoid to me.

Really guys, you truly believe that in EVERY SINGLE instance of offering several different style divisions that it is about some underhanded unethical contest? You can honestly form that conclusion? and that is the ONLY potential? I just can't even fathom that.

THIS is truth: a great time for all with divisions for style...and having actually attended the contest I can say from experience and fact that it was a total blast.

Upload
Old     (k_poulsen)      Join Date: Mar 2008       04-06-2008, 7:44 AM Reply   
Last post on this one for me. I apologize for opening this can of worms. It is most apparent that this has been discussed for a while. To all of you that are so passionate about this sport thank you. Please do not let this thread discourage anyone from getting involved wakesurfing it is awesome, having a good time is after all the whole reason for having a boat. On that note I just purchased a new boat. Here is a link if anyone is interested.

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/561366.html?1207492279

I will be out soon enjoying it. Oh by the way I got all the questions that I asked here answered by the dealer that I bought my boat from. I asked them to post what they told me up here. They seemed to know alot about it.
Old     (bluto)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-06-2008, 7:51 AM Reply   
Sean,
Why do you get your panties in a wad over this subject? You have never competed in a wakesurfing contest to my knowledge, so nothing done at a contest effects what you do behind your boat. Let your sister comment at least she has the guts to compete.
Old    surfdad            04-06-2008, 9:06 AM Reply   
No Kris, I hope that this doesn't go away that easily. You come in here basically spewing hate and prejudice. You refuse to answer the simple direct question: "Really guys, you truly believe that in EVERY SINGLE instance of offering several different style divisions that it is about some underhanded unethical contest? You can honestly form that conclusion? and that is the ONLY potential?" Although I can understand why.

Drew makes a blanket statement that divisions will KILL the sport. How HUGE is that assumption? Drew is a spokesman for Centurion as a sponsored rider. You Kris, buy a Centurion and share Drew's opinion that style divisions are strictly some unethical practice.

I think it's important that folks contemplating a boat purchase recognize this - that Centurion, their owners and spokesman feel that only their vision of a contest is acceptable and that any deviation is "killing the sport" or is some unethical practice, again without any experience in the matter.

I hope it's something that we all continue to talk about and consider, especially considering all the recent posting on subjects such as this.
Old     (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       04-06-2008, 3:54 PM Reply   
maybe kill the sport is overkill I apologize for that statement. As for a local or grass roots event i think it should be ran however you want to run. I have thought about this for a ferw days and I apologize again for my past assumption. In all reality I guess I just really think that in the "pro" division it shouldn't be seperated/ Pro's are pro and what they rid eis there choice.That is all i was trying to say and got way side tracked and couldn't figure out how to explain myself. In Amatuer i say what ever helps everyone out to enjoy the sport is what is the right thing to do. Sorry for the misexplanation on my part and sorry to get everyone stirred up. Most importantly I just want to travel do clinics and demos and show and teach as many people as I can to wakesurf and enjoy the sport that I love to do. And hit a few more contest on my way. Again
I apologize for the bad explanationa nd assumption on my side. Jeff I appreciate what you guys are doing and if it is going to get more people into wakesurfing I am all for it.

Thanks
Drew Danielo

OH yeah and I will never get into one of these post again YIKES!!!!!
Old    surfdad            04-06-2008, 5:40 PM Reply   
Thank you Drew...when you are a central figure...an icon, you wind up carrying a heavy burden. Folks are enamored by celebrities and also by your incredible talent. I think it's best for everyone if we focus on all the good that folks, including yourself, are attempting to do for the sport.

I look forward to your continued success with the sport and leadership as the World Champion.
Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       04-06-2008, 6:49 PM Reply   
Wow.

The National Wakeboard League (NWL) is USA Wakeboard’s grass roost organization. The 2007 NWL Wakesurf Nationals was a grass roots competition.

At Nationals we had amateurs (AMs) on Saturday and Pros on Sunday. The AM divisions were youth, men, women, master's (old farts like Jeff and myself), and longboard. For Sunday I had planed a Women’s pro and two men's divisions skim and surf. The pro ladies were well enough represented to add both women’s skim and surf and I was able to talk Jeff and Judy into giving up their trophies, we opened up another division.

There was enough ride time available on Saturday to invite the pros to take demo rides along with the AMs. A very cool experience for the AMs, plus it gave the pros some wake time. Since longboard wakesurfing is let’s say novel and new in the sense that there are no pro longboard riders I invited the pros to ride in the longboard division.

On Sunday I encouraged the AMs to compete against the pros. If you’re a sponsored rider you’re a pro. If you’re not a sponsored rider how do you get a chance to become one? Well, surfing against the pros would help. I’ve seen a few of our 2007 Nationals competitors post results on web sites.

Just surfing is fun enough for me. I don’t need a competition to enjoy the sport. For me the competitions are about meeting new friends, learning a little, maybe pushing yourself, and sharing the stoke.

I’m a loyal Centurion owner. I’m not sure I understand how or why Centurion figures into much of this discussion. Well OK there's Worlds. The Centurion Wave might have been the first boat made with at least some consideration for wakesurfing. Add the Avalanche and Enzo products and you’ve got a very solid surf lineup. If we make wakesurfing a Centurion only sport, well that won’t kill the sport, but I think it might stunt its growth. I think by making it a Centurion only sport we would end up making wakesurfing and Centurion an oddity, something novel but not serious or mainstream.

Whatever we’re doing let’s make sure we’re having fun first.

The 2007 NWL Nationals Divisions.
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Old     (bluto)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-06-2008, 8:10 PM Reply   
Why shouldn't these 2 competitors be in the same division? Both in the ocean and both riding a wave. Both professionals.


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Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       04-06-2008, 8:28 PM Reply   
Have these two pros ever competed in the same contest in the same division with the equipement shown?

Why is there more than one kind of car racing? Why are the race cars different?

Why is there more than one type of competition in the Olympic track and field events? Can’t they run just one kind of race? Can’t we just have one sport, let just have walking as the planet sport. No walking might exclude several groups of people, come on folks lets see if we can normalize sport to just one competition, one division, winner takes all.

(Message edited by bigshow on April 06, 2008)
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       04-06-2008, 8:33 PM Reply   
A World Death Match winner takes all.
Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       04-06-2008, 8:36 PM Reply   
Is that you Darth Vader?
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       04-06-2008, 8:44 PM Reply   
I'll bring the Death Star.
Old    surfdad            04-07-2008, 5:18 AM Reply   
LOL - you guys are too funny - we would just have "sport" singular. :-)

I honestly believe that we have to allow folks to have just a single "wakesurf" division if they want. Forcing divisions on folks is just as inherently wrong, IMO, as not allowing ANY divisions.
Old     (t_mann)      Join Date: Mar 2008       04-07-2008, 10:38 AM Reply   
Kris asked me to come and add my two cents worth to this thread. I am not sure that I want to get caught up in this. In the spirit of disclosure in am the owner of M&M Watersports in Utah. We are the oldest and largest Centurion dealer and we do sponsor Drew. So my take on this subject may be skewed.

As far as skim vs surf. I am of the opinion that the organizer can do whatever they want. Please do whatever divisions that work in your area. I do think that the surf vs skim will go away soon. There are too many companies making boards that will grey the lines of how you separate the divisions. A good example of this is when I was vacationing in Florida this last week. I was able to take a day a go riding with Drew. He was riding a prototype bigger phase five board that had larger surf style fins on both sides of it. I would have to say it was a surf style board but Drew was doing shuv's and big spins etc on it. It was pretty amazing to see him throw a 360 shuv with a board that size with 4-5 inch fins under it. As a second example, I rode in the boat at Worlds this last year filming the finals. Chase Hazen was going huge on a shred stix board that had their std large fins and he came very close to pulling off a 180 shuv. I think that the sport will evolve to a point where you will have a hard time separating them.

Arguing about this type of stuff drives people away from doing events. Any way we can bring more people to this sport the better.

On the Centurion subject. Sure Centurion started the whole wake surf revolution that is blowing up all over the country, but that does not mean that it is the only boat out there. People with all types of boats need to be welcomed as long as they are safe to ride behind (ie please no IO's or outboards) I do not think Centurion is trying to tell anyone how to run their events. I know they just don't want an outside organization telling them how to run the event that they started.

Please eveyone try to remember that it is about having a good time with friends and family. I met Drew at a wakesurf event and I consider him a very good personal friend. That is why I sponsor and go to tournaments to meet new people and keep involved.
Old     (norris_laker)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-07-2008, 11:41 AM Reply   
One thing that keeps getting overlooked is the AWSA views Surf vs Skim as a style issue, not a board related issue. The style doesn't dictate a specific board. Use whatever board you want. It you want to ride a nine foot board with 12 inch fins in a skim style division, so be it (although you'll probably lose). To better see this, look up a video of Jessica Oswald and Bri Chmel surfing. Both of these surfers are great surfers but their styles are vastly different. Jessica has a "Surf Style" and Bri has a "Skim" style. At the NWL National Championship, both of these surfers were allowed to demonstrate there strengths in Surf and Skim style divisions and not surprisingly, Jessica won the Surf division and Bri won the skim. As I stated earlier, I would like to see both division winners compete against each other for overall Champ. At the World Championship, these two competed against each other but I bet it had to be hard to compare the two. How many feet of air did Jessica have to get or how hard did she have to attack the wake to equal the 1080's or shuvits that Bri does.
Old    surfdad            04-07-2008, 11:49 AM Reply   
Troy, thanks so much for your input. Why do you need to express this opinion?

"I do think that the surf vs skim will go away soon."

Obviously you aren't clarvoyant and it seems incongruent with the previous statement that you think that organizer's should be allowed to do what suits their area. Anytime you express a negative opinion like this, you're going to offend folks and, of course, based upon your relationship with Centurion and the opinions expressed by "Kris" and Drew, your motvations are suspect, IMO.

No one wants to dictate how Centurion does their contests. The rules were specifically written so that Centurion could have just one division in the open classes. Would it be ok if Centurion, it's dealers, spokesmen, riders, etc stopped expressing negative opinions about different formats?

The World Wakesurfing Championships is one of the greatest contests provided wakesurfers. The format and content is marvelous, everyone that attends has a great time.

If I could ask one change, that would be to stop this sniping from folks that prefer Centurion's format. In small grassroots events, where there is time and the inclination, surf, skim and LONGBOARD (I hate how that keeps getting omitted) is great fun, it offers more riding time and exposure to folks that WANT IT.

You'll notice that nobody in here, or with the American Wakesurf Association speaks negatively of the Centurion format, or makes negative projections about the future and that format. Perhaps Centurion and it's "relations" could do the same? Then all of this would, for the most part, go away.
Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       04-07-2008, 11:59 AM Reply   
Jeff,

Let’s give some due credit to Centurion as well as Malibu. Both of which has sponsored grass roots events that I have organized. Centurion was a gracious 2007 NWL Wakesurf Nationals sponsor. From my perspective they have most certainly supported events that promote surf and longboard styles.
Old    surfdad            04-07-2008, 12:17 PM Reply   
Agreed Ed, Centurion has provided me boats on many occassions. Brand new shiny Enzo's. At Tulloch last year and the World's Centurion actually HAD style divisions. What I would respectfully request is no negative discussions about style divisions. They don't have to offer them EVER AGAIN. They don't have to say - YES IT"S great! They don't have to support style divisions, in any way, shape or form. No one is screaming - say it's better than the sideswipe exhaust! Just don't say anything negative about it. I don't think that is being unreasonable, Ed. I also think that folks that prefer the style divisions have offered this in RETURN for the Centurion format. If you look abve, I went out of my way to be sure that folks know and understand that format is FINE - BETTER than fine.

To me, it seems like marketing 101 - don't publically say anything negative about anything.
Old     (stick)      Join Date: Dec 2007       04-07-2008, 4:04 PM Reply   
I am a rookie to wakesurfing. This winter I got rid of my slalom boat and bought a boat for wakesurfing specifically. I am very excited about wakesurfing.

BUT, it is threads like this that will drive people away from the sport. Who wants to be involved in a community as such?

Just my thoughts from a rookie.
Old     (mhetheridge)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-07-2008, 4:56 PM Reply   
Surfing is the grandaddy of all action sports which require us to stand sideways. Look at how these competitions are based. Such as the NSSA. They do separate divisions. They have a longboard division as well as a shortboard division. On top of that most contests that I've been to or watched have had other divisions as well. Like the expression session where you can ride anything you want. The air show where the only goal is to do big airs. I would say that eliminating the surf versus skim style would be relative to the expression session. Why not have an open surfing division, an open longboard division and an open skim division and then finally an expression session. Ultimately, wakesurfing is about having fun with your crew.
Old     (norris_laker)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-07-2008, 5:24 PM Reply   
John, can you elaborate a little bit more on what in this thread would be so strong that it would have the power to drive people away from the sport of wake surfing. I love to wakesurf and would never let something said by a small group of people in a silly internet thread keep me from surfing. I've been to multiple wakesurfing events and I can tell you they are wonderful events to participant in and to attendance. A lot of camaraderie and good fun. Never have seen any problems or disputes at an event. On second thought, there might have been a sticker problem at last years WWSC. I hope you keep your excitement for wakesurfing and don't let the negativity of a few, jade your opinion of wakesurfing. Since I started wakesurfing, I've only slalomed once. If you have a family, surfing is a great family activity.

(Message edited by norris_laker on April 07, 2008)
Old     (wakerider44)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-07-2008, 7:55 PM Reply   
is it just me or does it seem like its every person in here vs jeff??
Old     (norris_laker)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-07-2008, 8:10 PM Reply   
"is it just me or does it seem like its every person in here vs jeff??"

Not in my replies.
Old    surfdad            04-07-2008, 8:16 PM Reply   
Welcome Matt. Really? Let's count:

In favor of no style divisions:

Kris
Sean - I think it was a little tough to tell from his post. So that's 2.

In favor of ALLOWING style divisions, but not requiring it:

Me
Dennis
Show
Roy
Waterdog
Matt E
Guido

That's 7

In favor of allowing, but would prefer to see no style divisions allowed:

Drew
Troy

That's 2 semi in agreement.

Ambivalent:

John Mclee

That's 1.

In the thread that is referenced from last year when there were a ton more folks online - it was basically just one individual in opposition of style divisions and - wow maybe 80 or so for it.

So I'd guess it's not just everyone against me. :-) Whew! I think it's 2 that are truly opposed to the idea, 7 in favor, 2 semi in favor, semi not and 1 that didn't really weigh in.

(Message edited by surfdad on April 07, 2008)
Old     (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       04-08-2008, 10:38 AM Reply   
add me to list of in favor of the "Allowing" group. and where there are enough people -- actually encouraging skim and surf separate.

i think we've only seen one contest (in Ohio if I recall where there was a longboard division), but would love to see more of that...
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Old    surfdad            04-08-2008, 11:09 AM Reply   
I love the noserider Matt. We had the first ever longboard division at one of the INT League contests we hosted for them...oh man...I want to say two or so years ago. It was such a blast! I think that Jerry Price won that stop. What's interesting to me is that there are all sorts of displaced surfers across the country and when they have a chance to ride a longboard again, after so many years - it's like they are kids again! :-) Honestly, from my perspective the longboard division is the most fun for everyone. :-)
Old     (norris_laker)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-08-2008, 11:39 AM Reply   
Matt, are you going to be at the Texas Championships? Would love to see some of your custom made boards.
Old     (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       04-08-2008, 12:55 PM Reply   
Hey Roy

Will be there for sure - should have a few boards on hand for folks to check out / demo. Look forward to meeting you there -- should be a blast!
Old     (stick)      Join Date: Dec 2007       04-08-2008, 2:55 PM Reply   
Roy,
Let's say this kind of bickering goes on at events (which sounds like it doesn't), who wants to be part of it? It won't keep me from wakesurfing, but it would certainly keep me from attending a competition, thus impacting the growth of the sport. It sounds like the events are a great time. I would love to see one in the Boise, Idaho area sometime.

I don't know Jeff from Adam on this site, but I can certainly appreciate his enthusiasm for the sport and willingness to help others out with their questions.
Old     (mhetheridge)      Join Date: Aug 2006       04-08-2008, 3:37 PM Reply   
Matt that looks like a Walden Magic Model. I love those beveled rails.
Old     (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       04-08-2008, 3:55 PM Reply   
Hey John,
None of this really comes up at a competition. The discussion of surf and skim should really only be about properly training judges to recognize the degree of difficulty of any trick. A judge in ice skating would need to know say that a triple toe loop is easier than a triple axel. Both have three revolutions but are not the same difficulty. Competitors should have the assurance that the judges will judge them fairly in what ever trick they throw. The AWSA has attempted to be inclusive not exclusive. Every event that I have attended and judged have been great fun and I would not hesitate to bring the whole family. The majority of grassroots contests give the best prizes by random drawing not by placing. This promotes the FUN in competing not the placing. We would love to have an event in Boise. We can provide support to organizers. If you are interested in having an event let us know.
Old     (h20k9)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-08-2008, 4:32 PM Reply   
very nice Matt!blue fin and stripe goes well with the wood stringer.how hard was it to keep that bevel straight and consistant?jig?
Old     (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       04-08-2008, 5:31 PM Reply   
This is sport, not too different from art. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You have to have this discussion to help define and explain what is considered to have value. The fact that different folks have different opinions is normal for the human experience. I believe that there is a required level of education required too. Forums like these aid this discussion. Here we can set a standard and put the standard up for critical review. The end result may be a modified standard or one that withstood a challenge. Either way that's good

To some extent I disagree with the notion that an event organizer can do whatever they want to do. Having said that I’ve done what I wanted to do. Something’s worked some didn’t. I listened and learned. If we’re going to develop a national series of wakesurfing competitions it would be beneficial to define a standard. Let’s work on defining what surfing skills are more difficult and therefore more valuable. Let’s work on how to evaluate a surfing performance.

Humor me and accept for a moment that we can have skim and surf styles. Lets say the on the east coat skim boarding rules and on the west coast surf style rules. Two different schools of wake surfing emerge. Then you hold a regional or national level competition. Let's say that the two styles mix like oil and water. Judges may not know how to make meaningful assessments of the different performances. A skimmer on a skim board and a surfer on a surf board both do a shove. Does one take more time to set up and is one more difficult to complete?

Last year I published rules before the Scioto Wakefest and therefore before Nationals. Has anyone ever published rules for a competition before last year? How could a competitor know how to train to achieve the best score given their abilities without access to the evaluation criteria? For the 2008 season the AWSA is developing a judging course and rules. Our effort is most likely imperfect but it will be out there for critical review. USA Wakeboard is adopting wakesurfing in to the 2009 National Championship. The rules for 2009 will most likely be based on the 2008 AWSA rules. Chris Walker has been an amazing supporter of our efforts.

So if there’s “bickering” let’s get over it and work productively to grow our sport.
Old     (stick)      Join Date: Dec 2007       04-08-2008, 6:00 PM Reply   
I agree with Show, that discussions need to take place in order to improve and find the best system. The choice of words and the way things are said is what looks bad in my opinion.

Dennis,
I would love to help bring something to Boise.
Old     (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       04-09-2008, 5:12 PM Reply   
hey waterdog -- thanks for the props.

it is actually a beige pvc stringer so looks deceptively like wood... :-)

the bevel just took time... i think i did a few swipes with the planer (same number on each side), then just took my long block sander (piece of sandpaper drilled into the ends of a 14inch 2x4) and counted passes with the paper to try to keep everything the same on each side -- checking occasionally with my calipers. i'll have to let you ride it sometime soon.

(sorry for the hijack)

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