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Old     (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-19-2015, 10:28 PM Reply   
Cla17, congrats on the cute little kid! Lord knows I love nothing more in this world than my own 2 beautiful daughters!!!!

Now, awesome your on here! But man time to just eat this and take this damn boat back! So what it's gonna cost u $2k in shipping! Also time to fire tal! These guys are scum and obviously only in business to make a quick buck and u know it deep down. Do the right thing! This guys coulda bought a Nautique and MC or even a BU even a MB and been out having a ball with his family but he trusted in Epic and looks where it got him.
Old     (meathead65)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-19-2015, 11:29 PM Reply   
As a dealer, I have been involved in a similar situation two times. Here in Sacramento, we had two large dealer groups go out of business within a year or so of each other. I was running a competing dealership, and Seaswirl boats approached me both times to take the existing inventory into my store and sell it at retail. First, we received a substantial discount on the units. Second, both Hammers and Copes had used the boats as rolling parts departments. The amount of missing stuff was initially almost overwhelming. To Seaswirl's credit, they had any part that they had control over delivered to us ASAP. For motor and trailer parts, they issued warranty checks every 15 days to reimburse us for anything and everything we had to source. They also paid us full shop rate to effect repairs.

When the time came to sell the boasts, I advertised and sold the boats at exceptional prices compared to retail, but because of the initial discount for taking the repo units we made a comfortable margin. Most importantly, we were upfront with the buyers about the boat's histories, explaining the price reflected the journey the boats had taken. The boats still had full factory warranties, were sold as new, and any issues that had been missed or warranty items that came up were handled by the standard dealership warranty procedure.

My guess is this is how this went down: Epic had a dealer go **** up with a few boats on hand. Because the dealer was failing, he was using stock boats as a parts department. Epic couldn't find a "real" dealer to assume the flooring on the boasts, so they went wit TAL thinking they would magically become a competent boat dealer. TAL has neither the staff nor the experience to even inspect the boats to determine what's wrong/missing, not the expertise to repair anything. They flipped the boat to a unsuspecting internet buyer knowing full well they would never have to put hands on it to make it right. They probably banked on shifting as much blame to everyone else as possible. I'm also betting they made a handsome margin on this boat.

In my opinion, a whole bunch of this lies on Epic's doorstep... They had to have known they forwarded these boats to a dealer not equipped to properly repair and represent their product. Epic needs to put a employee qualified to repair the boat on a plane and in a hotel near the boat so he can oversee and assist in the repairs. Short of that, they need to find a service dealer they can trust and give that dealer an open credit card account to allow the dealer to properly repair the boat. If I was closer I'd volunteer to help. The powertrain in that boat is no mystery, any decent shop with current software and a decent tech could get that boat up and running, and they would have relationships with sub vendors to handle all the other issues.
Old     (meathead65)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-19-2015, 11:38 PM Reply   
Sorry for the typos, big thumbs small phone.
Old     (iamcdn)      Join Date: Sep 2010       06-19-2015, 11:48 PM Reply   
#epicboatfail just sayin'
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-19-2015, 11:54 PM Reply   
Thanks for the congrats, the kid is doing well

JJ - The only thing that needs to happen to have this boat fixed properly is to put TAL and Epic into contact with your service agent. I can appreciate and sympathize with the lost time annoyance of ANY issues that arise but we stand ready to help make this boat right. But for now we have no contact to take any corrective actions with this boat... We can ship any parts needed directly to your service agent or authorize them to order parts, and I'm sure they can handle any other outsourced work that is needed. They can ready this boat for your approval with no effort on your part aside from forwarding contact info. But again, if we cannot communicate with them to approve the work and parts needed then neither TAL or Epic can take no corrective actions to help with this boat...
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-20-2015, 5:50 AM Reply   
Why don't you just fly your own tech down to deal with the boat? I don't understand this at all. Also, how do you not know where the boat is now (which shop)?

JJ- post up where the boat is so Chris knows.

At this point, I completely understand JJ's desire to get rid of the boat.

Oh, and where the heck is the title?
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-20-2015, 8:00 AM Reply   
I completely sympathize with the OP on this, as he has a $60k boat that he can't use. That simply should not happen. That being said, I also have some sympathy for Epic here (for what it's worth, I've never even seen an Epic boat, so I don't have owner's goggles). The major issues here are clearly ones that occurred after the boat left the factory. A manufacturer's warranty is there to cover defects in the build of the boat, not to cover damage that occurs after boat leaves the factory. Obviously, if a faulty part was used and subsequently fails, that would fall under a defect in the build. If manufacturers were expected to warranty any and all damage that occurs to its products after leaving the factory, they'd either (a) go out of business or (b) have to significantly raise prices on all of us.

To further complicate matters, this particular boat was then transferred to an area where Epic doesn't have a dealer. I may be in the minority here, but I'm not convinced it's Epics responsibility to incur expense in traveling to a part of the country where they don't do business, simply because someone drug their product there. The only fault I have with Epic here is that they probably need to vette their dealers better. Keep in mind, the dealer is not owned by Epic. It's a separate entity.

Now, I have ZERO sympathy for the dealer in this case. The issues the OP is dealing with appear to mostly lie with the dealer. A few things may relate to the shipper, but the most serious likely do not.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       06-20-2015, 10:05 AM Reply   
Chris, as the clock continues to tick on this it only serves to reinforce JJ's position. Your window of opportunity to make this a success story for Epic's customer service by repairing the boat has closed. Anything short of replacing the boat or providing a refund is now futile. Unless business is so bad that you can't afford to give the money back I don't see why you would drag this out as every day this goes on is another potential customer that buys elsewhere. Think about it. It's pretty bad when even the Epic fan boys on here aren't backing you.

We purchased a new V226 last year and I had some minor issues that I thought were a big deal at the time after plunking down 60K+. Supreme then owned by Fineline and my dealer NWBS stepped up immediately and resolved my concerns. There was no hesitation. There was no finger pointing. The dealer and factory worked together as a unit to put the brands reputation and the customer first. As a repeat Supreme buyer this only further served to solidify my support for the brand. I did talk about some of my issues at the time on these boards but in hindsight my problems were nothing compared to this ***** show. These stories do come up when people ask about our boat. The factory and dealer costs were minimal to know will say "We love our Supreme and the factory support is awesome" while referring them to our dealer.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-20-2015, 2:49 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by illini88 View Post
To further complicate matters, this particular boat was then transferred to an area where Epic doesn't have a dealer. I may be in the minority here, but I'm not convinced it's Epics responsibility to incur expense in traveling to a part of the country where they don't do business, simply because someone drug their product there. The only fault I have with Epic here is that they probably need to vette their dealers better. Keep in mind, the dealer is not owned by Epic. It's a separate entity.
I pretty much agree with this. From the outside it looks like the owner has decided he doesn't want the boat so is manipulating the situation to stall resolution and lever a refund
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-20-2015, 2:50 PM Reply   
^ that.

I still fail to see why any of this is really epics fault... Except the stereo.
Old     (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-20-2015, 3:59 PM Reply   
It's epics fault because they built they boat and they let a shoddy dealer flip the piece of crap.
Yes buyer took a risk dragging it so far from another a authorized dealer which I'd never do but apparently it is at a authorized engine manufacture warranty faculty. Granted the current dealer it's sitting at isn't really doing motor warranty work considering it's missing parts.
I also tend to agree the owner just wants to be done with the boat but he needs to work with epic also on getting this done if Epic only wants to fix and not replace or take it back.
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-20-2015, 4:09 PM Reply   
On the contrary, Chris is pretending to be a hero and saying how "simple and easy" this is. Simple and easy for him. I figure out all this crap and he sends me a few parts and writes a couple checks. I`m stuck inspecting and documenting damages, taking pictures and videos, going back and forth with Epic, TAL and, multiple repair facilities coordinating travel, delivering parts, arranging repairs and scouting multiple repair shops to do the work.
FURTHERMORE I have ALREADY TOLD EPIC where the boat is and what is missing.

Chris really just wants to know where the boat is to try to look good in court. He is only trying to do the absolute minimum and write a couple checks and send me more used parts out of his junk bin to save himself money wherever possible while he holds mine captive. This is a shady deal I rejected as soon as I found out the boat was a banged up, picked over, repo. This is a crooked ass deal and everyone knows it.
If you werent so blinded by your desperation to keep every penny of this sale you would think about the fact that this thread is permanent and will be seen by hundreds of your prospective buyers for 10 years to come. (Although I highly doubt you will be around that long.)
In your shortsightedness you will never even realize how many sales this actually cost you.
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Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-20-2015, 4:19 PM Reply   
On the message above:
Brad is the the guy from Epic that Chris asked to handle this.
Brad was the one that told me the boat was a repo. Thats how I found out. In the email above he said he already sent out the part before the shop here had finished diagnosing what part was missing exactly. So by the time I told him what part I needed, Brad was like no problem, I already sent out what you needed by UPS GROUND (no hurry guys, I have all summer to fix this crap). This alone cost me over a week of waiting to fix this thing. If I would have just ordered the parts from Mercruiser I could have had them in 24 hours. Epic sure is "making this right".

Brad never made any mention that he planned on replacing the most expensive part on my "new" boat with a 4 year old used part that had been used in a repair facility...
Did I buy this from your authorized dealer or a yard sale?

Last edited by SICKSPEED; 06-20-2015 at 4:22 PM.
Old     (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-20-2015, 6:24 PM Reply   
I am surprised at the comments pointing and blaming JJ for this. We do not know all the details and never will, and it is not wise to make judgements based off of limited and or one-sided information, but all along this thread, as a few of you chose to call JJ out and blame him, he brings "proof and evidence" to show how he was telling the truth. JJ's upset, obviously for good reason, and understandably emotional about this, but so far he has proven to be very reliable and truthful. I don't know the guy, but JJ, I am on your side 100% and think that EPIC should take their boat back, give you your money, and you can go buy a 2015 brand new Moomba, MB, Axis, Sanger, or whatever else you can buy new for $60k.

I like Epic boats, I think they look great and the wake speaks for itself.... but I am shocked by the series of events that have transpired. No worries though, I was never going to buy an Epic before this thread, but they could have handled this in a totally different way, righted a wrong, and most likely added a bunch of sales because of their actions... that ship has sailed, unfortunately for JJ and Epic boats.
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-20-2015, 6:39 PM Reply   
You`re right Johnny. I had even offered to accept any other Epic boat that hadnt been run through the mud. Chris wouldnt have even lost even one sale. They could have taken it back and rehabbed it at their convenience.
Why they didnt do that before selling to an unsuspecting customer is beyond me.
All Chris keeps saying is, "sorry, we will pay for repairs". But this goes way beyond that. "Sorry" and a bunch of excuses dont make this right.
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NJ       06-20-2015, 7:05 PM Reply   
Didn't read the whole thread, but I don't get the bashing and shoulda water tested it. It's a brand new boat, it should be fully functional, pristine, and ready to use. A 1 yr old or 30 yr old boat, yes inspect and you get what you get if you havent' seen it personally, but brand new is brand new. You don't order a brand new pair of board shorts and blame the buyer if they're torn, the string won't tie, pocket has a hole, etc. You exchange them under warranty or return for refund. This brand new boat is no different than brand new board shorts that don't function as advertised.
Old     (wiscxstar)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-20-2015, 7:59 PM Reply   
JJ - The only thing that needs to happen to have this boat fixed properly is to put TAL and Epic into contact with your service agent...
Chris - that June 9th e-mail sure makes it look like you already had that info, but here I googled the phone number for you: (509) 452-4440
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-20-2015, 8:01 PM Reply   
I hope you get your situation worked out, but I still don't see Epic's legal liability to you on this. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong, but the way I see it, their relationship to you will be limited to what is required under the warranty. They didn't market the thing for sale, and they didn't complete the sale with you. If I was you, I'd be focusing on TAL, because I don't see filing suit against Epic getting you anywhere. I know above you mentioned you still don't have a title. Has TAL offered any explanation on that?
Old     (cla17)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-20-2015, 9:31 PM Reply   
PROGRESS!!! Brad(Epic's factory rep) must have missed this shipping note but he had asked you again who to contact to fix this ECU issue and you refused. I also asked and you refused to give me a the contact too. But if Don's Dry Dock is who we should be working with then I will inform TAL and Brad. We have lost a week with no one to contact here but hopefully things can progress now.

And I'd humbly like to remind everyone here, whose comments are both appreciated and respected, that this situation is not one of a local dealer refusing to help a customer with problems. If JJ was in Houston this conversation would not be happening. If there was any problem after JJ had picked up this boat then TAL would have asked him to bring it in and they would have fixed it quickly, no questions asked. If Epic sent TAL a wrong ECU then we could have corrected that in a day. Instead, this boat was not only shipped out of state, but out of region, and even out of TAL's half of the country. 2,200 miles of distance makes almost anything difficult.

Neither TAL or Epic have ever said they wouldn't help with any issue that has arisen with this boat, be it their fault or not. And this boat was not a "Nightmare" when it left TAL. These are the pics from before it left: Note; the gel coat is in excellent shape, no holes in the arm rest of the captains chair, both tower bolts installed, Trailer in excellent shape with center caps in all wheels and all lights in order aside from one side indicator cap missing, and the window foam seal is intact. So aside from these easily visual verified issues not existing before shipment there is only the missing ECU and Stereo power to deal with. And there is no reason to assume both were an issue before shipping but neither TAL nor Epic has said we weren't willing to help with any of these issues weather they were caused during transit or not.

To be blunt - Epic produced and very nice boat here, it was sold to TAL in great condition and TAL sold it on to JJ. Epic certainly honors all of its warranty obligations but none of this would qualify. Normal wear and tear, shipping damage and theft is not covered by ANY industry warranty that I know of. This boat was the responsibility of the buyer as soon as it left TAL and the 2,200 miles shipping was not the responsibility of TAL.

Now that there is a list of issues from JJ, all TAL and Epic have tried to do is help put them to bed and get this boat on the water. Epic has already shipped $1,000 in replacement parts(a new custom cover, trailer step pads, and tower mirror) and TAL has approved for $800 in Cosmetic work. To expect that these issues can be fixed without JJ's or a service agents help is just not reasonable. And to then withhold information to keep these repairs moving after Epic forwarded a $1,000+ ECU service part to try to expedite things is illogical. Epic understands that sending out a wrong ECU is a mistake but we only had the HIN # to work with and had no feedback from JJ's service agent so we assumed it was a different ECU. Mistakes happen but we immediately asked how to rectify the situation. Parsing e-mails to post here are not helpful and do not paint an accurate picture of how I, Brad and TAL have tried to press this to a satisfactory solution. We are trying to help and as I've said before we want to make this right. I am not out to bash JJ for his faithful purchase of one of our beautiful boats and just want to work together to find quick and efficient solutions here.

I want to see this boat on the water and JJ happy with his purchase. And I will continue pressing to see both happen!
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-20-2015, 10:54 PM Reply   
Wow. Really Chris? Reality check. How many time do I have to say this?
How the hell can the damage be MY FAULT or responsibility?
Admit it. Your authorized dealer is a joke. Dont you make them do a predelivery checklist?
Now that I have arranged all these repairs you want to act like you`re doing it for me. You`re not.
I guess I should be GRATEFUL that I`m LUCKY enough to be getting this boat rehabbed and ONLY losing a month or so of prime wakeboarding time. Plus all the time wasted with this back and forth, plus taking time off work to expedite repairs and troubleshooting.
By the way. You got a tracking number for that cover you keep talking up? Because it sure as hell aint showed up here on my end. Been borrowing a cover from a friend to keep the dirt and sun off it while it sits in the repair yard. Only thing Ive got from you is a used computer I didnt need need, a couple of pieces of hydromat to cover the rust and scratches on the fenders and a clip on mirror.
And when you say "press this to a satisfactory solution." Please tell us all how you and TAL plan to actually do that.
Thats all I`ve been asking for all along Chris.
Right now I`m about as far from satisfied as you can get.
Old     (BurnMac42)      Join Date: May 2015       06-21-2015, 5:23 AM Reply   
I'm still confused why Epic keeps claiming that the distance is a problem. If your shipping boats on a weekly basis I would assume you have a rather large bulk contract with a shipping company that affords you the opportunity to get shipping at a reduced rate.

The $2k-$4k that it would cost to ship his boat back to Epic's factory to have them repair everything can't be THAT much of a hit to Epic's revenue. Especially considering the amount of negative marketing this thread has produced.
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-21-2015, 6:05 AM Reply   
Oh the blame game. Gotta love it. Still an Epic fail in my book. Lots of dancing around issues here. You want to convince us that the boat was perfect when it left the dealer? How about some time stamped video or pictures verifying the condition as it rolled off the dealer's lot. All of this damage could have occurred at the dealer after the pictures you referenced were taken. And who on earth would steal an ECM out of a boat (except someone working at a dealer who needed it for parts).

I love how Eric's focus has been on the minor parts (cover, bolts, mirror, etc. - stuff that probably cost epic a couple hundred bucks) and not on the real problem, which is getting the damn boat on the water. I don't care if there is no local dealer, Epic and TAL sold an incomplete and non-working boat to a customer. GET ON A PLANE and get this handled. Yeah, you'll be out $500 for a ticket, but the boat will be fixed and you'll avoid paying warranty repair labor rates (unless you're planning on sticking JJ with the bill from his local guy).

I would never ever in a million years consider an Epic after reading this garbage. What this tells me is that a customer's happiness is way way waaaayyyyyyyy down on Epic's list.
Old     (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-21-2015, 6:39 AM Reply   
Chris go ahead and keep posting trying to blame everyone but Texas Auto Liquidators or Epic. Your only screwing your own brand! Not only are u screwing yourself out of future sales your screwing your current owners here that ever plan on selling their boats! Good job! All current epic boats probably just lost some amount of value with this thread!

The way your defending tal is crazy! Does a relative of yours work there or something?

The first thing a potential buyer used or new usually does is internet research. Any epic search is gonna turn this thread up! Again if I'm a current epic owner or epic dealer I certainly wouldn't want to see this thread going this way!
Of course jj u might want to tread lightly also because this is the kinda stuff that Epic could use in a defamation case back against u. So be professional and stick to facts.
Old     (Khyber)      Join Date: Mar 2013       06-21-2015, 7:42 AM Reply   
Buy Local
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-21-2015, 7:59 AM Reply   
LOL "none of this would qualify"...

Boat arrives without ECU? C'mon guys. Maybe EPIC should be taking TAL to the woodshed for selling this "pristine, NEW" boat so far out of its own territory, but certainly shouldn't be shipping used parts as a fix.

Epicfail indeed.
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-21-2015, 8:41 AM Reply   
Are there any hours reading on the hour meter on this thing?
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-21-2015, 8:45 AM Reply   
Someone needs to post a link to this thread on epic's facebook and twitter. It's a damn shame that people have to resort to internet shaming to get a dealer or manufacturer to step up and address a warranty issue.
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-21-2015, 8:48 AM Reply   
SS - that's a great question. I'm not sure if hours are recorded on the ECM or elsewhere (in other words would swapping the ECM cover up prior usage), but that could possibly explain why it was yanked out...
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       06-21-2015, 11:17 AM Reply   
Depending on the dash gauge system will tell hours and if it holds them. But an engine ECU could have been pulled to mislead hours. Does the boat have a mechanical hour meter, where are the hours read? I'm not familiar with epic. I know in my 14 Tige when I was having issues and we were swapping parts actual hours always corrected.
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-21-2015, 12:25 PM Reply   
In the ad, it shows 2 hours on the dash screen. The ad itself states 1 hour. Wouldn't this indicate that the boat had to be running at some point? Which would make some sense, as I'd think they fire the thing up after installing the engine.

In looking at the ad, the only wording in it was as follows:

2014 Epic 23v Wakeboard Boat Brand New**Full Warranty


2014 Epic 23v Wake Boat NEW Full Fact Epic 23v

I really don't find any fault with Epic here. This boat is a 2014, which means it probably left the Epic factory no later than July of 2014, which is nearly a year ago. Subsequently, it has gone to two dealers and has been drug cross country. I certainly have some problems with the dealer. I don't understand how they didn't know the boat didn't run, BUT, their ad is not entirely misleading (assuming he ever gets a title saying he's the original owner, and not a used one). If the title ultimately shows him as the original owner, it's a new boat. There is no wording in there as to condition. There is no listing of additional equipment or options (such as a stereo remote, trailer guide covers, bow filler cushion, tower mirror, etc.). That being said, there are a TON of pics, and they seem to depict a flawless boat, so there are some questions there. I'm in no way supporting the dealer, I just don't think this is as clean of a case for the OP to win as many on here do.
Old     (Medium)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-21-2015, 12:57 PM Reply   
Wow, I can't believe how Epic and TAL are handling this...

Hey Chris, If this is how Epic and TAL are going to handle things, then get out of the boating industry. Your company and dealers' lack of integrity isn't needed.

P.S. So far this thread has over 12,600 views. I wonder how many Epic boat sales will be lost by this thread...
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       06-21-2015, 2:08 PM Reply   
^^ Thats a great point…wonder if Epic ever paid to be a sponsor on here. If so how much longer till this thread gets nuked?????
Old     (biggator)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-21-2015, 6:35 PM Reply   
While Epic should be trying to make this right (for the sake of their brand) - I really view TAL as the prime bad guy here.. selling what seems to be a repo as new, never verifying that it actually RAN before shipping it.. and somehow jacking it all up during shipping. That said, Epic needs to get rid of them as a dealer as fast as humanly possible.

JJ - make sure you keep a copy of this whole thread in case it gets nuked.
Old     (wiscxstar)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-21-2015, 10:25 PM Reply   
But if Don's Dry Dock is who we should be working with then I will inform TAL and Brad. We have lost a week with no one to contact here but hopefully things can progress now.
Seriously Chris, "if that is who we should be working with". There is an e-mail to Brad from June 9th telling him that (posted earlier on this thread). EPIC FAIL.
Old     (MalibuGold)      Join Date: Oct 2014       06-22-2015, 9:23 AM Reply   
Chris, are you really trying to stand behind TAL? Have you seen their facility? The complaints they get? The fact that they are not boat experts only buy crap cars from crap auctions, put band aid's on them, shine them up and re-sell them. This is coming from a guy that didn't even buy anything from them. I almost bid on an ebay item and since they were close went to visit them and immediately knew I would never do business with them. Did you even check these guys out. If you are depending on them to partner with you to resolve this issue it's going to be a train wreck.

You should make it right with the customer and discontinue your relationship with TAL? At least go visit their facility and see for yourself.
Old     (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       06-22-2015, 11:24 AM Reply   
Chris, unless your next post says you gave JJ a new boat, a 10K rebate, and revoked TAL's dealer license, then you may as well find a new career. You need to decide if you want to take a 20K hit today or a million dollar hit tomorrow. On a much smaller scale, I just gave a client $1000 back last week just because they were going to end up upside down on a project I worked on. It's what you do in order to keep your customers happy and future business flowing. Trading this year's bonus for all future bonuses is never a good long term business plan. Wake up before it's too late.
Old     (CPanner)      Join Date: May 2015       06-22-2015, 2:46 PM Reply   
I own an Epic, bought it sight unseen (as I have with many vehicles) and am very pleased with it, and the customer service I've got from Epic has been excellent. That being said, if I was JJ I'd be pissed right now too! 60k for a "new" boat and losing valuable water time... I don't think most of this is really Epic's fault but that fact that they are sticking up for TAL so much is disturbing to say the least. I know I did a pile of research online before I bought my Epic, and if I came across this thread I likely would have ended up with a different boat, just saying... make it right Epic.

On a side note, JJ once you get your boat up and running I think you'll be pumped.. Love my 21v.
Old     (Clamcakes)      Join Date: Jan 2012       06-22-2015, 3:50 PM Reply   
JJ hope you get this resolved soon. I purchased a boat from TAL back in 2011

I bought a 2009 Moomba LSV Liquid Force Edition (repo) from TAL back in 2011. The boat had only 44 hours on it and looked good in the posted pictures. I live in Dallas and TAL wasn't to far from me, so I went up there to go look at the boat. The boat looked good, checked everything out (stereo, switches, navigation light, wakeplate, etc) I checked the ballast bags and noticed the water hadn't been fully drained and there was ice in them and inquired if the boat had been winterized. The salesman (think his name was Brian) assured it had been winterized by their mechanics. I didn't see many inboards, mostly I/O and outboards so I was worried that their mechanics didn't know how 'to work' on inboards. (my first boat purchase so could have been my ignorance). Brian assured me everything was in working order. I asked if I could get the boat independently checked out by a mechanic, he agreed and I left a deposit to go pick up a friends truck. Took the boat to Dallas Skiboats, paid (I think) $75 and they did a thorough examination of the boat. Everything checked out good and we consummated a deal.

I've read all the posts and know what you've gone through and hope you get this resolved soon. I wanted to post for any future boat buyers to please go check out the boat beforehand and line up a competent shop/mechanic to check it out before you sign a deal.

I know this forum doesn't get much Moomba love but this boat has been perfect for what my family does and I got it for 38k

Included a pic of the day I went to go look at it.
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Old     (mike2001)      Join Date: Feb 2008       06-22-2015, 8:09 PM Reply   
"Chris, unless your next post says you gave JJ a new boat, a 10K rebate, and revoked TAL's dealer license, then you may as well find a new career."

Wow, here's to mob mentality and being anonymous on the internet. I wonder how many of you would walk up to Chris in real life and demand all of this on behalf of someone you never met who made semi-coherent accusations on an internet forum.

JJ - how did you have enough wealth to buy a 60k boat sight unseen but couldn't be bothered to check it out or look into Texas Auto Liquidators (sounds like the highest of quality inboard dealer). And what have you done to hold TAL accountable. It seems like you have Epic's attention and you're trying to just force them to fix everything because you can't bothered again to put in the effort and go after all responsible parties.

While Chris isn't completely blameless, I feel sorry he has to come on to this public forum and manage this nonsense under the threat of no one on Wakeworld ever buying an Epic (as if they were about to).

All the pros stopped posting on here, and most of the officers from the larger manufacturers stopped, I guess it's time to chase away the smaller guys too.

Sorry for the rant, I didn't add any value to this discussion, but this discussion hasn't added any value to this site, so oh well.
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-22-2015, 8:22 PM Reply   
To answer questions first, the boat did say 2 hours on the screen when it got here. I`m not sure if having the key turned to the run position will count as "hours"? Perhaps?
I also dont know why Moomba gets a bad rap. My father in law has a Moomba Mobius and it seems like a great boat for the $30,000 he paid last year. If I would have found another like it (in a cool color like his, black) I would have stopped looking and bought it first. Of the used boats I was seeing in my area when I bought this, everything was 2.5 hours away and just ok. I`m a busy guy and I didnt wanna drive 5 hours round trip to look at a boat that might end up being rough. Plus for other reasons travel wasnt gonna work out well. Honestly my mindset when I bought this one was that there wouldnt be any surprises...
Nordicron, you are right. When I go to resell this boat I CANT and WONT try to hide its history. Surely this thread will be a strike against it as far as resale goes.
Oh and as far as TALs low res pics of this boat, I can tell you that they were taken back in Feb or before. That was when the boat was first posted on ebay.
Old     (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-23-2015, 6:51 AM Reply   
Buyers Beware..... Looks as if they are looking to sell another epic.....
Old     (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       06-23-2015, 7:12 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by davez71 View Post
Buyers Beware..... Looks as if they are looking to sell another epic.....
HA Make is listed as a mastercraft...
Old     (LukeR103)      Join Date: Apr 2010       06-23-2015, 7:33 AM Reply   
Attached Images
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 7:36 AM Reply   
Lol scummy dealer is scummy.
Old     (MalibuGold)      Join Date: Oct 2014       06-23-2015, 7:38 AM Reply   
That is the one area in their stealership where they laid down some tiles to make it look decent. Behind this this wall there are 100 migrant workers being paid with chickens and crackers.... LOL
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-23-2015, 7:51 AM Reply   
Wonder what's missing from the green one?
Old     (lashburn1)      Join Date: Oct 2014       06-23-2015, 8:03 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
HA Make is listed as a mastercraft...
Looks like a new boat to me?
No a fan of the Exterior styling and Dated Tower @$78k

I will say the interior looks good and appears to have quite a few features and Massive stereo.

But the price , dated Style , and this thread would omit me as a potential buyer.
Old     (randv)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2015, 8:30 AM Reply   
$80k for that, ouch. I agree it looks dated and the tower doesn't help. No surf system either that I noticed.

TAL must be confident that their excellent customer service track record justifies the high price.
Old     (wiscxstar)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-23-2015, 8:35 AM Reply   
That's because it is a one off Mastercraft/Epic hybrid....
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-23-2015, 8:35 AM Reply   
As a business owner on a public forum, I would never considering choosing here to argue. Why not spend the $5K to have the boat brought back to the factory, repaired and sent back. Sure its lost money, but now you have the attention of a large portion of the wakeboard market watching this unfold. Than you can make sure it is is a "new" boat and go over the top to make sure it is right. Things happen in all businesses and mistakes happen every day in businesses, it is how we handle those issues that make a difference. I would stop blaming everyone including the customer and just knock it out. Let JJ come away happy and he and the rest of us will be impressed by how the owner went the extra mile to take care of a bad situation.

I personally would have serious reservations about buying a Epic at this point and would be nervous recommending them to friends. I want to feel that when I spend $60-100k on anything, that I will have quality service behind it. I realize you have to count on dealers, but when your dealer falters, that is the time to step in and knock it out. I have seen similar situations like this happen with Tige, Malibu, supreme, and MB first hand over the two decades I have been involved in the industry. In all those cases when the local dealer was unable to handle the situation, the owners of the companies found a way to resolve and keep it out of the press. I'm not blaming TAL, EPIC or JJ at this point as these things can get out of control quickly especially in a public world - but it is how Chris personally handles it at this point that will make the difference. I hope that it works out as I believe we need brands like Epic in the industry. In the time this has all gone back and fourth the boat count have been taken back, repaired and back to JJ and he would have been here saying how Epic is the greatest thing since the fat sack.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 8:52 AM Reply   
If a dealer trashes your new car do you call the company or the dealer?

No, you make the dealer handle it, and if they don't make it call the company who makes the dealers life hell.

This is what epic should be doing. Fixing the stereo and few other minor issues on their dime and pressing their dealer to take accountability for their mishandling of the boat for the big stuff.

I find it very unlikely that the boat left the factory missing an ecu among other issues...

The fact that the boat is a re-po just thickens the plot.

No one should be afraid of buying an epic, or any boat, from an authorized retailer that is local to them and can do any warranty work through the proper channels.

A good customer/dealer/manufacturer relationship is important.

TL,DR: Epic should not HAVE to pay to warranty defects NOT CAUSED BY POOR WORKMANSHIP OR REGULAR WEAR AND TEAR. Dealer denies that they or their shipper caused said problems, and here we are...
Old     (meathead65)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-23-2015, 9:03 AM Reply   
I like how they toggled the display screen over to show the radar screen..... Money says if you asked the salesman if it has radar he say "yes".

Engine drain plugs hanging in a bag on throttle..... Think it's been run up and checked out?

100 percent positive feedback on eBay? How is that possible?
Old     (seth)      Join Date: Sep 2002       06-23-2015, 10:04 AM Reply   
If these boats are being sold brand new on ebay by a certified dealer, how does that work out for warranty and other issues getting fixed? Doesnt the dealer have to take some responsibility knowing that they will sell these to anyone, anywhere?
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-23-2015, 10:10 AM Reply   
Just read this on the other boat on eBay - Not sure if this is what was presented to JJ, but if so that may be an issue form a legal matter. It says as is and buyer is responsible to accept before signing. So if this goes to court and this is what he signd, pretty much SOL. That does not excuse the dealer or EPIC, but in terms of court - they would be a big problem.

This vehicle is being sold as is, where is with no warranty, expressed written or implied.
Ask us about extended warranty's, we have very competitive pricing and great coverage options
The seller shall not be responsible for the correct description, authenticity, genuineness, or defects herein, and makes no warranty in connection therewith. No allowance or set aside will be made on account of any incorrectness, imperfection, defect or damage. Any descriptions or representations are for identification purposes only and are not to be construed as a warranty of any type. It is the responsibility of the buyer to have thoroughly inspected the vehicle, and to have satisfied himself or herself as to the condition and value and to bid based upon that judgement solely. The seller shall and will make every reasonable effort to disclose any known defects associated with this vehicle at the buyer's request prior to the close of sale. Seller assumes no responsibility for any repairs regardless of any oral statements about the vehicle.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 10:19 AM Reply   
^ everything vehicle etc you have ever bought will have some form of that written in.
Old     (biggator)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-23-2015, 12:56 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by buffalow View Post
This vehicle is being sold as is, where is with no warranty, expressed written or implied..
It was also advertised as 'new - factory warranty'..
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2015, 1:09 PM Reply   
Yes but when you sell a new vehicle it comes with a federal disclosure form that outlines the warranty. This is a federal requirement and I do have that in writing.
Now is this boat a Mastercraft product or not? Thats some major misrepresentation. That was also one of the reasons I originally decided to buy it. I thought it was a Mastercraft sub brand like Honda/Acura.
Every one they sell they say its a Mastercraft. I`m guessing that was a lie at this point.

Pretty damn dishonest if you ask me.
Old     (Jmaxymek)      Join Date: Feb 2012       06-23-2015, 1:13 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by meathead65 View Post

100 percent positive feedback on eBay? How is that possible?
This is fishy... How does a company have such bad google and BBB reviews, yet 100% feedback on eBay??
Old     (wakesk8er2)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-23-2015, 1:38 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by SICKSPEED View Post
Now is this boat a Mastercraft product or not? Thats some major misrepresentation. That was also one of the reasons I originally decided to buy it. I thought it was a Mastercraft sub brand like Honda/Acura.

Please tell us you aren't serious
Old     (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-23-2015, 1:42 PM Reply   
Sooooo damn sketchy!
Old     (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-23-2015, 1:45 PM Reply   
Epic Boats is in no way, shape or form affiliated with Mastercraft Boats.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 1:54 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by SICKSPEED View Post
Yes but when you sell a new vehicle it comes with a federal disclosure form that outlines the warranty. This is a federal requirement and I do have that in writing.

Now is this boat a Mastercraft product or not? Thats some major misrepresentation. That was also one of the reasons I originally decided to buy it. I thought it was a Mastercraft sub brand like Honda/Acura.

Every one they sell they say its a Mastercraft. I`m guessing that was a lie at this point.

Okay hold the phone here.

You bought a boat, from a sketchy used car dealer 2,000 miles away, site unseen, for 60,000, without ANY other research, because an eBay ad you thought the boat was a by mastercraft?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 1:55 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
Epic Boats is in no way, shape or form affiliated with Mastercraft Boats.

Build quality is about the same though, apparently!

Hey you mean MB doesn't stand for Malibu boats either?
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2015, 2:01 PM Reply   
I actually did a good deal of research on Epic boats. I never saw any other mention of Masetercraft but Acura wont ever tell you they are a Honda product in their literature either so I didnt think much about it.
Old     (beleza)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-23-2015, 2:09 PM Reply   
Holy cow this thread is becoming tiresome. Epic obviously isn't going to do anything and could care less about their name being obliterated on wakeworld. TAL obviously isn't going to do anything and doesn't mind a sub par reputation because people obviously still buy product from them. At this point JJ has to suck it up as a lesson learned and fix everything himself or take legal action and hope he has a strong enough case for lemon law of some sort. It sounds like absolutely no paperwork was signed at this point so he should have some sort of case. JJ let us know what you decide.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 2:11 PM Reply   
Any boat manufactured by MC would be a huge selling point and touted to sell more boats. They use budget boas to not only grow the sub luxury market but also drive the pricing up on their higher boats.
If it was a satellite brand of MC, it would likely be well known. Just like the relationship from Axis and Malibu. Boats are very expensive niche items and won't suffer from brand dilution like automakers might.
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       06-23-2015, 2:11 PM Reply   
You bought a boat, from a sketchy used car dealer 2,000 miles away, site unseen, for 60,000, without ANY other research, because an eBay ad you thought the boat was a by mastercraft?
On top of that, you "never signed a single piece of paper", then sent off $60,000 to Texas and never thought hmmm, that's unusual?

This is also fishy.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 2:13 PM Reply   
I'd take that dealer out to pasture legally.

He has nothing on epic and epic owes him as the consumer nothing but correction to the manufacturer defects. He was delivered damaged goods which is not the fault of the manufacturer.
Old     (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-23-2015, 2:22 PM Reply   
As mentions MC has not affiliation with EPIC. The only other boat company that MC has any stake in is HydraSports.
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-23-2015, 2:32 PM Reply   
Man, I don't know. Epic may have had a hand in relocating these "repo" boats, and may have known, or should have known, the condition of the boats when they were transferred to TAL. For all we know, the boat was missing an ECM when Epic facilitated the transfer of its boat from its prior dealer to TAL. Unfortunately, this is a unique situation, and I fault Epic here more than I normally would.

At the end of the day, the takeaways from all of this are: (1) Do not buy anything from TAL; (2) Do not buy an Epic unless you have a local dealer that you absolutely trust to handle issues that may come up; and (3) Do not expect Epic to go the extra mile to support its customers or protect its image.

Seriously, all of this could have been handled in a week at most. Epic could have flown a rep down with a few ECU's and diagnostic tools, got the boat running, approved gel repairs, had the rest of the small missing parts fedex'ed to JJ's local dealer, and flown home. JJ's dealer could have touched up the cosmetic issues and buttoned up the remaining problems (installed bolts, mirror, etc.). Epic could have paid JJ's dealer for the work, and then dealt with TAL directly for reimbursement. Cost to Epic - a few grand and a few days of travel/work for a tech. But noooooooooooooooooooooooo. Instead, Epic blames everyone else, does the absolute minimum by sending over a used incorrect ECM and minimal parts, TAL ignores the situation entirely, and JJ's left in the lurch.
Old     (Rusty)      Join Date: Mar 2014       06-23-2015, 2:43 PM Reply   
Yep, Chatt pretty much summed it up right there
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-23-2015, 2:49 PM Reply   
Could epic have facilitated the transfer of the boats? Probably.

However, does that mean they a simply authorized a clearance dealership (liquidator) to sell their boats as new? More than likely.

Epic certainly isn't bending over backwards here, but then again, they aren't really responsible for it. It would be NICE for them to do all of that. But it is far from required. Nor should it be expected from them. Will this impact epic? Probably, but for the wrong reasons.

We can't really speculate on what's going on between TAL and Epic, because we don't know. I would hope Epic is penalizing them per the dealer agreement. But this remains to be seen. TAL could be a bunch of thick skulled idiots. When dealing with these types of issues the money in hand becomes relatively important. Again Epic is not responsible for the damages so they may want to help, but are not going to chase TAL after the fact, which could cost them additional time and money. They are a low volume manufacturer, not a large corporation. These things lead to more headaches for smaller businesses.

When the boat was photographed it was clearly in good condition.

I bet most damage occurred in the yard or in transit.

Epic needs to fix their few little bugs such as the stereo etc, but the rest is all accountable to TAL and their shipper.

Last edited by simplej; 06-23-2015 at 2:55 PM.
Old     (CPanner)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2015, 4:17 PM Reply   
Wait, you say you did a fair bit of research but you thought your Epic was a Mastercraft?!?! This level of stupidity makes me question some of the claims you've made in this thread. Epic's entire history from their first prototype has been documented extensively on this website and many other easily searchable places on the internet.

Having "Mastercraft" in the title of an ebay ad is just a search tag, pretty much every item on ebay will have them located somewhere within their item description.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-23-2015, 4:29 PM Reply   
CPanner, it's not just in the search title. If you scroll down to the "Vitals" it actually says the make is Mastercraft and the model is an Epic. I don't think TAL even knows what the heck they are selling.
Old     (CPanner)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2015, 4:33 PM Reply   
Oh no question that TAL sounds like a shady dealership. But don't claim you did any actual research if you don't know the make of boat you bought.
Old     (onthecreek)      Join Date: Apr 2013       06-23-2015, 5:34 PM Reply   
Whether or not the OP thought it was made by a MasterCraft subsidiary makes no difference to the condition of the 'new' boat that was delivered, apparently by the manufacturer authorized dealer. To blame him for inaccurate representation and not the authorized dealer is just a distraction. For the manufacturer to allow this is inexcusable.

TAL's boilerplate disclaimers about sold 'as is' are probably just standard for their used car sales and don't negate the factory warranty. The fact that they can't support boat sales isn't surprising. They're in business to move used cars in volume and have branched out into boat sales....essentially repo'd boat sales at that. Again, doesn't reflect upon the manufacturer very well.

EPIC has some responsibility in that these activities are from one of their authorized dealers. They may not be directly responsible for removing the ECM or whatever happened during shipping but they have authorized TAL to represent them. Failure to take control of a situation that their dealer can't/won't handle is effectively approval of how it's being handled.

Has the correct ECM been delivered to the repair shop yet?
Old     (brodee42)      Join Date: Jun 2015       06-23-2015, 7:09 PM Reply   
Man...I haven't subscribed to a thread like this in a long time! Very entertaining....[eating a handful of popcorn].

JJ-please don't tell me you actually believed EPIC was affiliated with MC. Ha! I'm assuming your just posting that to have more ammunition for the fight against TAL and EPIC - which I don't blame you as I would be looking for any mistakes on their part as well.

I agree with most everyone. It's a complete bummer that EPIC and TAL have not stepped up in the way we feel they should've. Again..."What a MAJOR missed opportunity" for them. I keep checking this thread daily hoping EPIC would be the hero and surprise us all but it's apparent that is not going to happen.

Get your boat fixed and enjoy the remainder of the summer!!! EPIC and TAL will lose in the end. There's plenty of great dealerships and boat manufactures looking to "wow" their customers and make them happy!

Last edited by brodee42; 06-23-2015 at 7:11 PM. Reason: .spelling
Old     (wiscxstar)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-23-2015, 8:17 PM Reply   
Item specifics
Condition: New For Sale By: Dealer
Hull: Fiberglass Year: 2016
Fuel Type: Gas Mileage: 0
Trailer: Included Make: Mastercraft
Fuel Capacity: 51-75 Sub Model: Epic 23v
Type: Ski/Wakeboard Engine Type: 5.7L 350CID V8
Engine Make: Mercury
Old     (wiscxstar)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-23-2015, 8:43 PM Reply   
The above was from their ebay listing. This (below) is from their actual website:

"2016 Mastercraft Epic 23v Wake Boat NEW Full Fact Epic 23v"

They list the boat as a "Mastercraft" there as well. I hope Mastercraft gets wind of this.

JJ - you should talk with you lawyer about misrepresentation, if the ad for your boat also listed your boat as a Mastercraft. This whole thing just gets worse. Shady dealer! It is hard to believe that Chris is actual backing these guys. I wouldn't trust TAL or Epic to make me a cup of coffee at this point.

Last edited by wiscxstar; 06-23-2015 at 8:48 PM.
Old     (SICKSPEED)      Join Date: May 2015       06-23-2015, 8:52 PM Reply   
Before I bought the boat I read articles reviewing them, I watched videos with pro wakeboarders endorsing it, I read some forum posts with people talking about what they liked and disliked. I saw the turbo diesel version. I read about the hybrid version. Etc, etc.
I didnt read the one about the origin of the company and how it was started. It didnt occur to me that it was as important at the time. When you put it in those terms I also cant tell you who exactly started GM or Toyota or who their major shareholders are either. Sure I could have done more in hindsight.
I figured I could trust brand. Now I dont claim to be the most informed guy on this forum by any means. My last boat was a Yamaha. It was about the 4th boat I`ve owned in my lifetime. My first two were old $1500 outboard ski boats from the 70s, lol. I`m just a guy who likes to surf and wakeboard. Figured I`d stray from the beaten path a little and try a lesser known brand. What can go wrong when you buy new? ( Yes, I was a fool. ) Surely theres people on here far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to boats and what brands are better. I do welcome your input, and I realize I`m learning the hard way.


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