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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       04-30-2014, 8:57 PM Reply   
fence what do you know about this?

Seems strange to me. The Sea Fury is a bad a$$ war bird. He is flying in formation with the Cesna 210. The Cesna 210 is taking photos of the Sea Fury near point Richmond. The planes touch and the 210 crashes into the bay, Now this is where im confused. Why did the Sea Fury fly all the way back to its home airport 45 mins away (it's a private airport) There was no less then 5-10 airports that were much closer where the Sea Fury could have landed pretty much right away and accessed dammage ect.
It just seemed strange I think there is more to this story, we will see what they come up with when they pull the 210 out of the bay.
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-30-2014, 11:00 PM Reply   
I wondered about this story too. We'll have to wait I guess... I read the comments after the story on yahoo news and according to a couple of pilots, this was normal for the Sea Fury to do that. I was just out on the boat with a pilot today and forgot to ask him--dang it! I wonder if the Sea Fury at least circled around afterwards to check on the condition of the Cesna they collided with. Not a lot of info in the article I read yesterday. I bet that was a long 45 minutes ride home for the Sea Fury.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       04-30-2014, 11:33 PM Reply   
Damn. First I've heard of it. The airrace boards are pretty quiet right now. I'm sure something will pop up. The Sanders are the Seafury experts. They have built campaigned and own many Seafurys. Eagles Nest in Ion is Seafury City USA. If you're going to land a Seafury anywhere, you want to do it there. I'll see what I can dig up.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       04-30-2014, 11:41 PM Reply   
Ok. Both aircraft are registered to the Sanders. The Seafury in question is Race 8 Dreadnaught. Still no word on who was flying what.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-01-2014, 6:14 AM Reply   
Fence I had heard also that the Cessna and the Sea fury were both Owned by the same guy (sanders) and of Corse
sanders knew the pilot flying the Cessna. And I'm almost positive they were in raido communication. How could you Or WHY would you fly 45 mins home after the accident and not land and report the accident some where closer. I was trying to think? Would other airports not be able to support the sea fury after he landed? "Dosen't seem to be right " Flying all the way home just seemed like leaving the seen of a accident Like he was trying to hide or cover something up by flying home to your private airport.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-01-2014, 8:10 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
Fence I had heard also that the Cessna and the Sea fury were both Owned by the same guy (sanders) and of Corse
sanders knew the pilot flying the Cessna. And I'm almost positive they were in raido communication. How could you Or WHY would you fly 45 mins home after the accident and not land and report the accident some where closer. I was trying to think? Would other airports not be able to support the sea fury after he landed? "Dosen't seem to be right " Flying all the way home just seemed like leaving the seen of a accident Like he was trying to hide or cover something up by flying home to your private airport.
No. There is no conspiracy. Dreadnaught is a racer, not to mention a 4360ci radial powered racer. You don't just pull over unless you absolutely have to. I'm guessing that he didn't absolutely have to.

They were in radio communication. The big discussion at the moment is what happened, not why.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-01-2014, 8:22 AM Reply

This is a decent article. I certainly wouldn't listen to the "who is responsible for what statement" in it though.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-01-2014, 8:51 AM Reply   
The only thing that makes sense to me is that the pilot of the Sea Fury mabey had some beers on board? When you are involved in a accident the FAA would draw blood right then and their. But if you flew home and hid out for a few Hrs you could avoid/delay any testing. Blood Alcohol Content for a pilot is 1/2 of a car drive 0.04% So with only 1 beer in you I could see a pilot wanting to avoid any testing especially if it involved a fatal crash.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-01-2014, 9:24 AM Reply   
Well, the Seafury had tail damage and a wife on board. Had it been me, I would have gotten them back to base as well.

Preliminary report should come tomorrow. Everything is just speculation until then. More often than not, there is more to the story than anyone thinks.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-01-2014, 9:36 AM Reply   
Yes I saw conflicting reports 1 report said 1 pilot in each plane and No passengers another one said the Sea Fury had his wife on board. Another new article said both planes were at "Dream Machines" car and airplane show at half moon bay. One things for sure I'm pretty sure a 210 touching a Sea Fury would be like a Mini running into a Semi.

You think the prop of the 210 came in contact with the Sea Fury
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-01-2014, 10:20 AM Reply   
Without seeing the damage, it's pretty tough to say. With witnesses saying they saw the 210 spiraling down, I would venture to guess the wing broke. With no prop, you still have flight control. When a wing snaps off, **** goes bad, fast. I've seen this happen. There's literally no chance for the pilot.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-01-2014, 3:22 PM Reply   
Damn it. It was David Plumb in the 210. He was the crew chief for Dreadnaught.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-13-2014, 12:38 PM Reply   
Tue, May 13, 2014

NTSB Releases Prelim In SF Bay Mid-Air Collision
Pilots Had Been In Communication When The Accident Occurred
The NTSB has released its preliminary report in a mid-air collision late last month that resulted in the fatal injury of the pilot of a Cessna 210 over San Francisco Bay.

According to the report, On April 27, 2014, about 1606 Pacific daylight time, the Cessna 210E, N4962U, and a Hawker Sea Fury, N20SF, collided in flight near Port Richmond, California. Sanders Aircraft, Inc., was operating both airplanes under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The private pilot in the Cessna sustained fatal injuries; the commercial pilot and one passenger in the Sea Fury were not injured. The Cessna was destroyed during the accident sequence, and the Sea Fury sustained substantial damage to the empennage. Both cross-country personal flights departed Half Moon Bay, California; the Sea Fury departed about 1530 and the Cessna departed at an unknown time. Both airplanes were en route to Eagle's Nest Airport, Ione, California. Visual meteorological conditions (VMC) prevailed, and no flight plans had been filed.

The National Transportation Safety Board investigator-in-charge (IIC) interviewed the Sea Fury pilot. The Sea Fury pilot stated the he and the Cessna pilot had flown their airplanes to Half Moon Bay to display them at an open house for the airport.

The pilot reported that after departure, he flew over the airport, and rendezvoused with a Beechcraft A36 Bonanza for a photo shoot over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, California. They flew several 360-degree patterns over the bridge, completed their photo work, and he set his course for the return to Ione.

While en route the Sea Fury pilot broadcast on a common frequency, and the Cessna pilot responded with his position. The Sea Fury pilot made visual contact with the Cessna, which was ahead and to his left. He broadcast to the Cessna pilot that he would pass low and to the left. The Cessna pilot responded that it would be a good picture. The Sea Fury pilot replied that probably not due to the speed differential; the Sea Fury airspeed was about 200 miles per hour. The Sea Fury pilot proceeded on a path that he thought would allow adequate separation; however, as he was passing the Cessna, he felt and heard a thump and he realized that the two airplanes had collided. He pulled up and looked over his shoulder and he observed the Cessna inverted and going down.

The Sea Fury pilot stated that he concentrated on flying his airplane, and initiated a climb, and conducted a controllability check to determine that he could control the airplane in the current configuration. He wanted to avoid populated areas, so he continued toward his home airport. While en route he contacted company personnel, who decided to fly another company airplane to meet and examine the Sea Fury's condition. The Sea Fury pilot lowered the landing gear, and did a controllability check to include turns. He lowered the flaps, and repeated the testing. He reduced airspeed to a landing compatible speed of 130 mph, and checked controllability again. Determining that he had adequate control to land, he made a full stop landing at his home airport.

The Sea Fury is silver in color and the Cessna has blue wingtips with blue paint on the leading edge of both wings, on top of the cowling, and along the sides of the fuselage.

During the postaccident examination of the Sea Fury it was noted that the top remaining portion of the vertical stabilizer was crushed aft and down with blue paint transfer marks on the aft portion of the remaining metal. The operator reported that the missing vertical stabilizer section was about 12 inches long. The rudder had crush damage. The right elevator separated outboard of the middle hinge and about 3 feet of the elevator was missing. About 3 feet of the outboard section of the right horizontal stabilizer was missing. The outboard fracture surface was jagged and angular, and the upper surface had crushed inboard in an accordion fashion. Blue paint transfer marks and scratches were observed on the upper surface and within the folds of the metal.

The Cessna descended into San Pablo Bay, and the wreckage was retrieved on April 30. The recovered wreckage consisted of the fuselage and the engine. The left wing was not located. The propeller separated from the crankshaft, and was not located.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-13-2014, 4:12 PM Reply   
Wow sounds like he was "buzzing the tower" and got to close. I'm sure he must feel horrible. He tool out his own airplane and his friend. Very tragic. Do you think there will be any charges filed against the sea fury pilot?
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-14-2014, 7:55 AM Reply   
I'd be willing to bet there's more to it than one just ran into the other. If they were doing any sort of photo, it would be real easy for the 210 pilot veer of course to the left if he is trying to pan left to right, out the left side. Seafury holds course, 210 drops to the left just as Seafury is overtaking, BAM! Seafury gets hit by 210. Wing spar hits Seafury vert stab, breaks. Basically simultaneously, 210 prop hits Seafury hor stab, rips prop off, wing snaps off, drop to ocean.

At least that's how I see it happening. I kind of doubt there will be any charges filed.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-14-2014, 8:24 AM Reply   
Fence; do you think he made the right move flying all the way back to the Eagles Nest? The way I saw it was the SF (sea fury) was the FASTER more nimble aircraft moving towards the 210. The 210 was flying in a straight line to rather take a pic or maintaing corse. I'm guessing the SF was giving his buddy a show by flying buy flying by fast and close (a view very few people will ever see) and the SF just got to close. He mis judged the 210 and accidentally hit it. Simple physics did the rest. A, SF Vs a 210 is like a SUV Vs a Fiat 500. I get it that the SF sustained what seemed like minimal damage but does that mean you fly all the way home b4 you report it. I'm sure he saw the 210 spiral down to the bay in a way that the pilot of the SF knew the outcome was not going to be good for the 210 pilot. If I was the pilot in command I would have put the plane down ASAP. In fact knowing what the pilot of the SF knew happened to the 210 and that it was 99% his fault I'm surprised he could fly all the way home?
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-14-2014, 8:51 AM Reply   
As a pilot, your crew and your craft come first. Eagles Nest ain't very far away from the bay when you're in a Seafury. Then factor in that you have to figure out if you can control the thing enough to actually land it and save you, your crew and your craft. I'd say that 45min flew by (no pun intended). So instead of trying to maneuver around to a closer airport, contact that airport, fit into any other traffic and do controllability checks? Ya, that was absolutely the right thing to do. His focus needed to be on controlling and landing the aircraft. Diverting to another airport is a completely unnecessary distraction.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-15-2014, 11:33 AM Reply   
Here you go Grant. This is a quote from a very respected pilot-

I don't have any information on this specific decision by the pilot of Dreadnought, but I'll add this into the discussion.

Following a midair, or any other event where a high performance aircraft receives structural damage but is still flying and there is not another immediate need to land as soon as possible (ergo, , engine flameout, etc), it is normal procedure to perform a "controllability check" prior to attempting to land. This consists of configuring gear and flaps for approach, and then incrementally slowing to see what the slowest speed is where the aircraft can maintain control. The idea is that if you can safely get down to a logical landing speed and still have enough control surface deflection to maneuver the aircraft, then you go ahead and attempt the landing. If you can't get slow enough to make a good landing, then you keep your speed, climb up to a safe altitude and location, and bail out.

These checks take a bit of time and distance to accomplish, so you can either circle over one location and do them, or do the checks in a straight line (while you are pointing toward the home 'drome); the time in the air and distance flown is going to happen either way. 70 miles is not all that far to cover while doing this stuff, and the "home field advantage" has the benefit of people and equipment that know your aircraft type, and the pilot probably knows the runway and area better. Getting a good radio line of sight to the home field would be helpful for anyone you are talking to while doing a controllability check, as well as depending on the flight time, they could launch another aircraft to form up on you, visually assess the damage, and act as safety chase.

Given that reports say the vertical and horizontal stabs on Dreadnought were "substantially damaged" as I posted previously, it would make sense that the pilot might spend considerable time doing controllability checks prior to landing. There may have even been other damage they had to work through, like the gear not coming down, or something like that. If this was the case, he was probably on the radio to the rest of the Sanders folks at Ione during the process, too, while they broke out the Flight Manual and read him any relevant checklists or other data (since expanded flight manuals aren't usually carried in single-seat fighters or 2-seat trainers).

So, again, I can't comment on this specifically, but the fact that they kept flying reportedly for an hour post-collision and to their home airfield rather than landing immediately does not surprise me.


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