Pay it Forward '09

Found this post on wakeboarder.com.

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=79607

Shaun Murray here, and givin' you the haps for the pay it forward 09 program.
I did this last year and things went great. Here's what and why I'm doing this.
I came across an extra board in my garage, and since I am so pumped on how my new board rides, I wanted to share the ride with some other people. I posted that if someone wanted to try it out, I would mail it to them, they ride the board, sign the board, and write a quick blurb in a book that travels with the board, and then that person ships it to the next person. The only bummer is that you have to pay for the shipping, which isn't too bad of a deal.
So many people responded that I wasn't ready for that kind of response. Hyperlite found out about it, so they agreed to send one of each size. 135, 140, 145.
The boards traveled from state to state, one got pinched out of someones truck along with their personal ride, big bummer but was replaced. Two of the boards are still out there and one is in my buddies office, Kevin Durham, Team Manager at Nautiques.
Things went so well that Hyperlite agreed to kick things up a notch and send 9 boards out!
3 regions, west coast, mid west and east coast. I need 1 person for each region to track the boards travels. You will need to know who has the board and where is will be going. We will have a post for each region where people can let us know how things went, what they thought, etc...
For each "regional manager" (my ode to "The Office"), they will get to choose 1 board from their region to keep.
I know that this will make a lot of people want to take this position, but please only if you think you can follow it all year.
I will go over the guidelines like each person should have the board for only 3 days and then move it on, as we move forward with this.
I am up for suggestions on how to run this thing since I am figuring it out as we go along.
If someone wants to step up and apply for a regional manager position, let me know why you think you can pull off the job.
Go ahead and post on here for now and keep your eyes open for details.
I will try to have a decision within a couple weeks.
Ed, drop me a line so we can discuss some possibilities.
Im at my camp right now, so I gotta bolt onto the water. later Shaun

Seriously irked a guy with as much class as Shaun would take the pay it forward promo to the board with the least amount of class.

Thats Shaun for you.

He originally had it on here, but the post disappeared

Did you ever think that maybe he HAD to take it off of here?

Who would make him take it off?

Travis, is it best you don't say who made him take it off WW. If you can answer, then why would he be allowed to put it on another public forum.

Paul, here is my guess. This site is an advertisement medium. It is a business. You think Dave maintains this board and provides its content because he is bored and has nothing else to do? No, he has developed a way of gathering all the participants of a very small market into one spot for companies to push their stuff. Companies pay for that right.

If I had to guess, it falls under the idea of "free advertising", which would piss off either the board owners or the paying pimps.

Should also make you think long and hard about what a "pimp in sheeps clothing" might be telling you about products. most of the people telling you how great something is are people who didnt pay a dime for it.

^^^great explanation

Makes perfect sense.

Jason, that's what I assumed. I know Shaun is a pioneer in this sport, and I don't know him personally, but have only heard good things about what he has done for this sport. I just thought it was a great idea, and gesture by Shaun, and was looking forward to it happening again. Oh well, the almighty dollar prevails once again.

John, Michael, thanks a lot for the kind words, psych.
Jason, you're kinda right.
Here's why this whole sitch stinks. I had some extra boards and I wanted to let people have a ride on them because I really enjoy riding it. So I posted on here last year asking "who wants it to give the board a ride?" had a great response, everyone was pumped to try it out and be part of this. So it happened. Had such a great response from such a little offer that paying sponsors on here got a little upset. I understand where they are coming from. No worries. Dave politely asked me to not post the Pay it forward 09 on here, so my buddy Ed at wakeboarder.com offered.
Dave and I are cool, he's a stand up guy. (said with a New Yorker accent)

He is a great guy, and it is happening! Just somewhere else. Business is business, and here is more of my speculation, so take it for what its worth. Dave cant keep his place running on free advertisement, just like Shaun cant keep his school running on free lessons. Could Dave allow Hyperlite to get free pub with the pay-it-forward? Sure, but it starts a domino effect. Why should LF pay to run that banner when they could just pimp for free? Same for any banner up there? Every company would benefit from the cattle being led to the slaughter...but Dave and he is the one doing the work and paying the cost.

I guess when something gets to be this size, one has to make fair business decisions over allowing something to occur outside of that scope even though it benefits the sport.

edit: LOL Shaun beat me to it... Glad its still happening. I thought it ws a pretty cool thing to do.

(Message edited by jason_ssr on December 31, 2008)

for sure Jason. Dave shouldn't be doing stuff for free. My intent for the pay it forward was to pass a board around...at first. Kinda blew up from there. no worries.

Holla next time youre in Dallas and Ill teach ya to kiteboard on it!

So Shaun not only did you create a new shape, you also created a monster. We all know cookie monsters eat cookies. So this ultimately leads me to believe that a wakeboarding monster would eat wakeboarders!

haha

Shaun, i hope you did not take my post out of context. It was in no way a dig at you. Just bummed it is not happening here.

I wonder if one of those boards will ever make it to NC??

With 9 boards going out this time I would imagine it will make it everywhere.

What a bummer... I was looking forward to taking advantage of that sweet opportunity this time around!

Just click the link above, and open an account, (it's free) and put your name on the list. That's what I'm doing. Hopefully I'll get to try the 140.

I think that all the board companies should follow suit and send some boards out then everyone would be happy and no one would get upset. If other board companies would have stepped up after seeing how well the pay it forward from last year went then maybe we could still have it on here. I mean it may be "free advertisement" but why not do it too then it's fair for all companies.

I know that this is wishful thinking but it would be cool.

And thanks Shaun for everything you do for our sport. Hopefully I'll be seeing you soon at your camp.

(Message edited by mofreestyle on January 01, 2009)

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quote:

Just click the link above, and open an account, (it's free) and put your name on the list. That's what I'm doing. Hopefully I'll get to try the 140.

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No way man... I'm all WakeWorld.

I'm WW all the way as well. I just don't want to miss out on a great opportunity.

I won't join wakeboarder.com either, I went on that site and sorry for the hate but it sucks. WW all the way.

People are twice as rude on there as they are on here. When I was first getting into the sport everyone on here was nothing but helpful and there were a few people on there that were very rude. I haven't really encountered that much on here. WW for the win! But it is a great opportunity... I may have to try and get one if they come to the midwest. Unfortunately I have a shade under 5 months before that's gonna be possible...

See. And I get bitched at for speaking the truth.

The bottom line is that we don't allow advertising on the discussion boards and the Pay It Forward program certainly falls under that category.

There are two reasons that we do not allow advertising. The first is that the readers do not want it. If one company is allowed to advertise then they all must be permitted to advertise and the resulting glut of promotions would quickly render the discussion boards useless. Nobody likes to weed through spam when they're trying to read the discussion boards.

The other reason is that if we allow companies to advertise on the discussion board for free, they will have no reason to pay for advertising. Those advertising dollars are the only reason that WakeWorld is able to exist, so if we allow free advertising, WakeWorld quickly goes bye bye! I can assure you that neither Wakeboarding Magazine nor Alliance are about to dedicate a section of their magazines to a wakeboard promotion for no charge. This is just another reason why I encourage everyone to do what they can to patronize the sponsors that enable us to bring WakeWorld to you for free!

I applaud Shaun for coming up with the Pay It Forward idea and I think it's a brilliant way to market a wakeboard. However, without a large audience, it's just that; an idea. WakeWorld has spent 12 years and a lot of time, money and sweat to build a large audience. If we just hand that over to Hyperlite for free, we're really shooting ourselves in the foot by not only giving away something we've worked very hard to establish, but also by chasing away other board companies like Liquid Force, CWB Board Co. and O'Brien that have supported WakeWorld (i.e. YOU) for years with their sponsorship dollars.

As Shaun mentioned, I have discussed this with him and he fully understands and appreciates the situation. There are no hard feelings and Shaun has assured me that he will continue to post to our discussion board as he has frequently done in the past, something I and our readers are very thankful for.

Hahah, those little links you inserted are advertising! Must be companies that pay though because you did not link Hyperlite.

Wow.. I completely understand how other companies could construe 'Pay it Forward' as advertising. It sucks to see such a great thing hindered (on WW anyway).

Hyperlite IS a sponsor. I'm sure this is a "choose your battle" decision, but it still kinda sucks. I too, will not join wakeboarder. And I'm leary of 500 WW'ers joining WB.com and getting "on the list."

Since Hype is covering the cost of the boards and the program (the cost of the "advertising") and every other company is perfectly capable of giving free boards for demo rides if they choose to, I submit this: Isn't wakeworld.com just functioning as the terrific discussion board we all know it to be? If something significant happens in the industry, don't we all know about it? Of course. I don't think WW should be faulted for staying on top of the industry. And being the medium through which this movement happens.

Other board companies: Come up with something unique. Don't sit there whine when the MurDawg and Hype do something new and different.

If Liquid Force, CWB, or O'Brien were to do a pay it forward I would for sure put my name on their list. It definitely was a unique idea, and a good one....probably a little jealous they didn't think of it first. Probably no point in discussing it any further.

"probably a little jealous they didn't think of it first"
thats what it boils down to IMO.

"Probably no point in discussing it any further"
I agree, but is there any other solution than join WB.com??? thats all I'm gettin at.

Nacho, I'm not sure if you didn't read my post or if you just didn't understand it, but I'm not sure how I can make it any more clear without simply restating it. I would suggest you read it again.

In reference to your first paragraph...

How anyone cannot construe the Pay It Forward program as advertising/promotion of a product is beyond me. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

In reference to your second paragraph...

Not that it is relevant to this situation since advertising on the discussion board is prohibited by both sponsors and non-sponsors alike, but Hyperlite is not and never has been a sponsor of WakeWorld. You appear to be confusing sponsorship of the WakeWorld website with them covering the costs of their own promotion. Based on your logic, Wakeboarding Mag should allow them to run a free full page ad advertising the Pay It Forward program because Hyperlite will pay to have the ad designed and for the boards to be shipped out. I'm betting that Hyperlite has not even made an attempt to run that by the folks at WBM. However, like I said, even if Hyperlite was a sponsor, we still do not permit advertising on the discussion board, so that is a moot point.

The last thing I want this to look like is a dig on Hyperlite for not advertising with WakeWorld. Hyperlite is a great company and I know a lot of great people that work there and ride for them. I also respect their decision to spend their advertising dollars where they feel it will do them the most good.

Again, whether or not Hyperlite is a sponsor is not relevant to this discussion. I would not let Liquid Force, CWB or O'Brien run this type of promotion on the discussion board either.

P.S. For the record, neither Liquid Force, CWB nor O'Brien have ever complained or mentioned anything to me about the Pay It Forward program.

So then wouldn't any thread that was about Hyperlite be advertising (if going off of Dave's reasoning at least)?? If anything Wakeworld's sponsors should love for people visiting the site, even if it was to try and ride a board they didn't make through a creative program they didn't think of... I am an advertising major and by doing this you are basically telling your audience to go to your competition. Advertising is basically Reach (how many people see the Ad) and Frequency (how many times that person will see that one Ad) and now those people are going to be spending more time at a different sire instead of Wakeworld.

its a lose-lose situation for both Wakeworld and your advertisers IMO...

can you see the difference between me posting pushing hyperlite and murray posting pushing hyperlite?

Agree to disagree, YES!

I agree with Nacho though because the very initial idea was Murray having an extra board he wanted to give to people to ride, for free. It was no more, or less, then that. It is NOT a matter of perspective because that was Murray's intention. What it blossomed in to is advertising so I understand it not being allowed on www.wakeworld.com.

"Again, whether or not Hyperlite is a sponsor is not relevant to this discussion. I would not let Liquid Force, CWB or O'Brien run this type of promotion on the discussion board either."

There is no discussion here, the decision has been made to not allow Pay It Forward and it was the correct decision in my opinion. It is however, still funny to see that paying sponsors to this site had they're brand names linked to they're respected sites and Hyperlite (who does not advertise here) did not. Humorous to me because I see the irony in it first being stated that advertising is not allowed on the discussion boards.

I also agree with Nacho that other companies are jealous of Murray's great idea and it is a shame business works the way it does in this case.

Not going to happen, and I understand that, but I think Pay It Forward should be allowed to stay and if other companies do not like it they can join the idea. I feel it would be appropriate (considering this program originated here and went to completion last year) that this idea be 'grandfathered in'. That said, the rules then need to be renewed to prevent other seemingly innocent ideas that may turn in to free advertising from happening again.

Basically 'early bird gets the worm'!

I'm sorry you see it like that, but I've been running this discussion board for 10 years now with the current rules in place and I think that most would agree that it's one of the greatest discussion boards on the internet because of the way we've enforced those rules. I think that many would also agree that the other discussion board referred to above has deteriorated quite a bit over the years because of a lack of enforcement of such rules.

As a marketing major, please tell me how I would get companies to pay for advertising when it can be had for free?

I'm with ya Dave. With the point brought to my attention, and I was responsible for the site, I would do the same exact thing.

My chatter above was me dreaming off to a world where everyone was happy for the next guy and no one was trying to do wrong intentionally to another!

Dave,
My mistake on Hype sponsorship. I clicked over the home page and saw a hype banner flash. Then, immediately clicked Forward to this thread. Must have been a boardshop or other sponsor promotion. Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

And I DO completely agree that 'Pay it forward' advertising, no need to disagree. Obviously, where the water gets muddy is how much discussion of 'promotions' is allowed on WW. And I think you would agree that is particular promotion is something WW members definitely wanted. I'm sure there are specifics to the sitch and I'm not trying to debate why you made the decisions you did. Its just a great program and I think lots of WW'ers were looking forward to it.

Paul, I see where you're coming from. A lot of people take the position that certain promotions are unique, beneficial, cool or whatever, so they should get some kind of pass. However, you have to look at what that will do in the future.

Now me and the moderators no longer just eliminate any posts that are looking for free advertising. Now we have to judge each one and determine whether or not that one passes the "cool" test. Hmmm, a little more work and time spent.

But wait, now every company in the industry sees that WakeWorld has relaxed their no-advertising policy and that they can post something up for free and it may or may not be deleted. No cost either way. If I was a company, I'd be putting up a new promotion every day and hope that eventually I passed the "cool" test and got me some free advertising. Hmmm, now we're looking at A LOT more work.

As a WakeWorld advertiser, I'd seriously consider dropping my advertising on the site and put that money toward a new employee to post up my daily advertising attempt. Hmmm, now we're looking at less income.

Fewer resources, fewer articles, fewer interviews, less content for the readers because the people running the site are sorting through spam! This is the real lose-lose situation!

Again, I've been doing this for 10 years and, believe or not, I've thought it through and learned from a lot of mistakes. Flexible enforcement of rules does not reduce my workload, nor does it benefit our readers.

Joe also makes a great point. Just because the name Hyperlite is mentioned in a thread, does not necessarily mean it's advertising. It crosses over the advertising line when shops, reps, manufacturers, production companies, team riders or any other industry-affiliated party INITIATES a post specifically to promote a product.

That is not to be confused with an industry person chiming in on a thread to either put in their two cents or even promote a product if it is in response to a direct question. Obviously, if somebody (a legitimate John Doe WakeWorld member, not a company employee posing as a legitimate John Doe WakeWorld member) starts a thread asking if any shops have a particular board in stock, it's not against the rules for a shop employee to respond to the person with a link to the board on their website.

One of the greatest assets to the WakeWorld discussion boards are industry people that are here to contribute something of value to the other readers, as Shaun Murray has done for years. We have many industry representatives that make the discussion boards a better place and I thank them all for that. In the process, those people build goodwill for both themselves and the products and companies they represent without posting blatant promotions for their product. Now that's the kind of free advertising I'll welcome on the discussion boards any day of the week!!

Dave, are you planning on getting the 2009 VLX?

Going back to the beginning, I posted that if someone wanted to ride a board that I had laying around, then I would send it to them as long as they passed it along.
Being that it was myself, I can see how people think that is advertising. But in the beginning, I don't think the other sponsors were even looking at it that way. As it got going and gained momentum, then they reconsidered. And it took it's natural course where Dave and I had to make the decision for it to go elsewhere. Did I want it to? Not really, but either way, it's still happening. I just wanted some people to have a chance to ride my board, who normally wouldn't, and that's it. Kinda funny though how it is still going here. I love this place
Sorry other sponsors. We will stop now...wink.

what about a link on the hyperlite website itself for the pay it forward info/discusions/blogs/etc.?
those who don't want to sign up on wakeboarder.com can just go to the hyperlite web site... but then i suppose this might create extra/unwanted work for the hyperlite web site?

But now what if this wasn't Shaun who had started this idea. What if Joe Wakeboarder rides a board, and wins another of the same board. In the spirit of the sport, he says "what the hell, I love this board, let's give other people a shot to enjoy it as much as I do." And he starts a Pay It Forward program. Is he still held to the same restrictions because he is not affiliated with a specific brand? Sure, a company is getting free advertising, if you choose to look at it that way. But if that is the case, then every "What Board" or "Which is the best brand" thread should be looked at as free advertising and promotion. It seems to me that because Shaun is a rider for a company, he is held to different standards. This may or may not be true, and if it is not then maybe it is rightfully so, but it is just my $.02. When I first saw this program I viewed it as him just trying to get his board out there for people to give it a shot who don't have the opportunity to demo it or the means to afford it, not as an advertising ploy. One last thing, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, as I very well may be. Pro's are not payed on a commission style basis with their models are they? That being said, it is basically pointless for a rider to do this if they don't directly benefit from it, unless it is for the simple reason of spreading stoke. Anyways, have a nice day everyone!

Disclaimer: This post is in no means a shot at anyone that has posted on this thread, or a shot at the rules of WakeWorld. Just some thoughts

Tyler, it does not appear that you read my post just four posts above yours. As Joe stated, there is a big difference between Joe Wakeboarder deciding to pass his board around the country and an employee/rider of the board's manufacturer deciding to do the same. Yes, people affiliated with companies are held to a different standard. That is the point of this whole thread.

And, yes, some riders are paid based on how many boards they sell and some are not. However, again, that's not relevant. To say that a rider does not benefit from increased sales of their pro model or from promoting the company that the rider rides for is silly!

"I think that most would agree that it's one of the greatest discussion boards on the internet"

Agreed

/thread

dave, this kind of reminds me of how stubborn i was about 6-7 years ago.

Yeah Jeremy that would create extra work for the hyperlite website. Something I am not a big fan of!

Dave: apologies all around. I've been kinda reading this as it happens so i probably read that earlier and didn't recall it. So, if someone were to have been like "Hey Shaun, any chance you have a spare board lying around that you'd be willing to send around the united states for people to try out?" then this would not be a problem? Because you state that it is the initiator that makes it advertising.

Tyler, I'm afraid I can't give you any cut and dried rules that are going to work for every situation. In the situation you outline above, my first question would by, "Why is this guy doing this?" I would be suspicious that this person has an ulterior motive due to the fact that people don't generally behave that way.

The bottom line is that if I believe it's a backhanded method of advertising, even if it doesn't necessarily violate the letter of the rules we have in place, it is not permitted on the discussion board.

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quote:

"The bottom line is that we don't allow advertising on the discussion boards"

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quote:

"It crosses over the advertising line when shops, reps, manufacturers, production companies, team riders or any other industry-affiliated party INITIATES a post specifically to promote a product. "

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what about Andy Nintzel constantly pushing Obrien. And the CIE guys shoving CWB down everyone's throat? I constantly see threads where the OP has it down to two boards and wants to compare them and then comes posts from the above mentioned saying TRANSCEND PLATTY!!!!! or you need a NATTY, pushing that they are the best boards out even though the OP didnt mention them at all. I highly doubt they demo any other boards because they get their boards for free because they REPRESENT the compaines. That definitely sounds like advertising on the boards to me.

Kenny, I encourage you to read my above posts again as you have obviously missed a few things concerning the responses by industry people to posts such as the example you gave.

Other than that, if at any time you see something that you feel crosses the line, I encourage you to shoot me an email and I'd be happy to look at it.

The first time was Joe wakeboarder,In the beginning the original PIF was about Shaun loved his new shape. It could have been carved out of a wooden ironing board & It would have not mattered. Shaun chipped the 140 riding it first before sending it out & went to performance & replaced it out of his pocket. The boards were handed out to local riders to ride & pass off to the next person. I drove the 140 to the next on the list & so forth. Hyperlite WAS NOT INVOLVED in the movement or shipping & we got nothing for passing it along except riding & signing a board the Shaun himself had rode . The newest is not a grassroots pay it forward Like the first but a Hype promotion not even Shaun's hands touching them. True sincerity is what made the first time great!

(Message edited by otown_dave on January 04, 2009)

I understand both sides. and it's all cool. I did get to ride one of the boards, but even if I didn't, I think it's great that Shaun even offered it. Or even gets on here and talks with us.
This is a great site, and thanks again Shaun.

Shaun:" I need 1 person for each region to track the boards travels. You will need to know who has the board and where is will be going. We will have a post for each region where people can let us know how things went, what they thought, etc...
For each "regional manager" (my ode to "The Office"), they will get to choose 1 board from their region to keep.
I know that this will make a lot of people want to take this position, but please only if you think you can follow it all year.
I will go over the guidelines like each person should have the board for only 3 days and then move it on, as we move forward with this.
I am up for suggestions on how to run this thing since I am figuring it out as we go along.
If someone wants to step up and apply for a regional manager position, let me know why you think you can pull off the job.
Go ahead and post on here for now and keep your eyes open for details. "

Shaun,
I have not seen one post/response regarding your need for help managing the regions boards.
I don't believe it would take that much time to do so.
I live in the Central Coast of California and have been in sales and marketing for 16 years. I'm an avid wake boarder and happen to run Hyperlite boards already.
I think I could handle the task at hand.
Let me know how your search for a regional manager is going.

Brent

Brent, that is because the promotion is not running here. If you would like to become a "regional manager", you need to sign up at wakeboarder.com and ask over there.

If you do get a chance to ride this board check it out. I love mine!

maybe Hyperlite should create their own site to manage the promotion and write a press release about it.


I'll back up Dave on him not allowing Advertisers to promote on the board, i've been "reprimanded" on several occasions

^^ i suggested this too... but it would be too much work and worry to maintain i guess