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Old     (rivrrunr)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-01-2006, 9:11 PM Reply   
i ride behind a 17.5' larson i/o which i put a tower on last season. last year i was using about 200 lbs. of lead for ballast. not much wake. this year i bought a fat sac thinking that would make a huge difference, but it really doesnt seem to. does the difference in hull designs between a "ski" boat and a runabout affect wake shape and if so, how much. does any one out there have nice wake with a small i/o? if not,i'm selling my boat!
Old    gcreed            06-01-2006, 9:26 PM Reply   
of course the hull shape makes a difference for a wakeboard boat. Ski boats are built to throw little-to-no wake while a wakeboard boat is designed to throw a big wake
There is only one true "wakeboard" boat that has been designed from the ground up with wakeboarding in mind and that's Epic. ALl others have evolved from ski designs to become wakeboard boats.
Old    alanp            06-01-2006, 9:33 PM Reply   
wow, this is gonna get ugly
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       06-01-2006, 10:22 PM Reply   
HAHA!!!That was funny Griff. You were kidding right?

Yeah well those previous "Ski designs" still have the reputations for the best wake and the Epic has yet to prove itself.

I guess we will find out once all of us have had a chance to ride behind one. That wake better better live up to the hype you guys are creating.
Old     (attila916)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-01-2006, 10:58 PM Reply   
I have a ski boat and it throws an awesome wake!
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-01-2006, 11:23 PM Reply   
I find it interesting that SKI boat hulls from the mid 1990s continue to produce the best wakes.

The best wakes from CC/MC are still the 210 and X1. Only BU has actually improved their wake in newer designs (the latest VLX has a better wake than the older VLX).

It is also interesting how most WAKE specific hulls have been disappointing (so far). The CC Total Wake Control (TWC) hull was a big flop. And, MC's new XSTAR wake is not earth shaking.

So, why is it that SKI BOATS make great wakeboard wakes? I would guess the following...

Ski boats that are made to not mess up the water at 34 mph happen to make sweet clean phat wakes when SLAMMED at 22 mph.

This was a lucky thing for the ski boat makers. Imagine if runabouts made the best wakes! Every ski boat maker would be hurtin these days!
Old     (anodyne)      Join Date: Feb 2006       06-02-2006, 1:39 AM Reply   
Griff... I think you need a reality check pal. If you're trying to make yourself look completely foolish on here, you're off to a good start.

Listen to what Dane is saying - he's got the hydrodynamics dialed, and has the experience to back up what he's saying.
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       06-02-2006, 6:18 AM Reply   
Pull you head out Griff- these boards are no place to put your BS. I don't care what manufacturer you work for. BTY- where can you ride behind an EPIC- oh that's right it's not available. What a crock.

Wake board boats are however, way better than runabouts.
Old     (byrd)      Join Date: Dec 2005       06-02-2006, 7:05 AM Reply   
LOL...I wish this was Friday night, I could use a great laugh over a six-pack or two. By the way Griff, did you sell any boats this week? Good info Dane, it is supprising that the new versions(all manufacturers) made specifically for wakeboarding have inferior wakes of prior designs. I guess the saying "Less is More" strikes again.
Old     (newman)      Join Date: Jun 2006       06-02-2006, 7:19 AM Reply   
dj,

Where do you put your weight? I've found I need to stick as much as possible in the ass end of my i/o, otherwise I get small, mushy wakes even with half a ton of ballast. I've got an 18' i/o that I've been wakeboarding behind for about two years now, similar to your hull I think. I've tried a bunch of different weighting configurations, and have gotten a pretty good set up with 400lbs of misc. mass under the rear seat, about 600lbs of water in a big fat sac just in front of the rear seat, the trim all the way down, and one of those $50 hydrofoils mounted to the outdrive. Without the foil, we have to go 23-26mph to stay on plane, which is a little fast for my taste. With the foil, we can wakeboard at 20-22 with a decent driver on the throttle. It's certainly no v-drive wake, but it's paid for and I get no complaints from my riding buddies. I'll post a pic of the wake if I can dig one up.
Old    jemiller06            06-02-2006, 7:47 AM Reply   
Malibu has two different hulls and the wake hull is definately tuned for wakeboarding.

Byrd, have you ridden behind a new VLX? The reason I ask is because your statement does not hold true in this case. The new VLX wake is definately better than 04 and prior models (although that wake is no joke either).

Griff, I think you've got the general idea from this thread. How long have you been in the industry? I think it goes without saying that the new X-star did not evolve from a ski-boat. In the late 90's when manufacuturers put a V-drive tranny in a boat with a tower I think it is safe to say they were designing them with wakeboarding in mind. Now most manufacturer's have at least a few models that come on a wake hull. I get your point you want to emphasize Epic's design, however, let's be realistic. Post a pic of the Epic wake and a dealership where someone can get one then we can argue wheter they are superior.

Dj, sorry to get off track. If you have the financial capacity, sell your boat. Inboard boats hold speed much better, the wakes are better shaped, much firmer, and will give you a pop you just can't get with an I/O. Granted there are draw backs. Unless you go to a v-drive you will most likely give up some leg room and storage space. Although, with a 17.5 ft boat you probably won't give up much if any. If you are going to go inboard on a budget and you want something with lots of legroom and great wake performance check out the Supra Launch direct drive. I think they go back as far a 99 and come with a tower, but you can find older Sunsport's that have the same hull with a tower to really save some money. That boat is big(for a DD) has a great wake that only get's better with weight.

Hopefully all this Griff bashing doesn't get in the way of answering your question. Sometimes one post gets everyone off track. Including myself. Bottomline, enjoy being on the water regardless of what you ride behind.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       06-02-2006, 7:53 AM Reply   
Malibu definitely hit a home run with the new VLX. Stock ballast and wedge produces a wake I'm happy with. And I'm picky!
Old     (allen)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-02-2006, 8:15 AM Reply   
Your picky..... Noooo, get out town. HAHAHA!!!
Old     (scheersound)      Join Date: Feb 2003       06-02-2006, 8:56 AM Reply   
Griff why are you so intense about the post? The guy is just asking a honest question. you may want to read your post before you submit it. Maybe the way we are reading it is not they way meant to come off. Just my thought. I would apologize you do work for a company that may be a little upset about offending some WW poster's not good pub at all.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-02-2006, 9:13 AM Reply   
Hey I think Jimmy Wolf is getting a Epic sooner
or later, I saw him with a Epic shirt on at the
Black Top Oais. They had one in AZ a couple of months ago for a contest but outlaw riders didn't
get to ride behind it for some reason? But anyway
will have to wait and see how they work, when somebody gets one.
Old     (scottyb)      Join Date: Sep 2002       06-02-2006, 9:38 AM Reply   
I think Griffs post is pretty close to the truth, he forgot to mention that there are now three completely wake designed boats that I can think of. The new xstar, the CC 220, and the Epic. Even putting towers and v-drives on the same hull does not mean that it is wake specific. In my mind it needs to have a completely new hull that was designed with wakeboarding in mind. Now the only boat I am unsure about is the Malibu VLX, as I think it evolved from a previous ski boat design, but I am not sure. And it is also worth mentioning that from my experience the older ski designs have had the best wakes, but I have yet to ride the Epic or 220.
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-02-2006, 9:49 AM Reply   
Wow....hornets nest.....
Old     (jcv)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-02-2006, 10:32 AM Reply   
did i miss something? i re-read griff's post a few times, and it didn't seem like he was inferring that epic boats have, without question, the best wakes. he simply stated that epic boats are built from the ground up with only wakeboarding in mind (i think we all disagree that epic is the only company doing this; the x-star didn't evolve from any ski hull i've ever seen), unlike some of the classics. don't get me wrong, the old vlx, 210, and 205v wakes are still within the all-time top-5 or 7--and that's not likely to change anytime soon--but it doesn't change the fact the they do come from ski hull roots, even as modified as they've become over the years. even if epic and their wakes turn out to be a complete flop, you have to atleast applaud them for trying. i know we'd all love to have a redesigned 210 or x-1 with a 3000 lbs. of automatic ballast.

for what it matters, the pictures i've seen of epic's wakes are sloppy, curled over, and no bigger than any other well-weighted v-drive, but the riders in the pictures are absolutely flying on them, and that's all that counts
Old     (jcv)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-02-2006, 10:45 AM Reply   
pics:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/327052.html
Old     (airrantz)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-02-2006, 11:00 AM Reply   
Griff you might want to rethink your post. Almost all manufacturers are building wake specific boats these days. I understand your excitement in promoting the Epic, but from a customers standpoint I hate hearing false sales pitches, and bashing of other companies. I for one am very excited to see the Epic in person, and have been nothing but impressed with the company's ability to answer questions about the product and their overall excitement for the sport. I hope you understand the impact that statements made on this forum can have on your company.

DJ as for your question your boat may have a hard time getting a good wake because of the hull design. Try moving weight around forward to back to see what gives the best result and run with it.

(Message edited by airrantz on June 02, 2006)
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       06-02-2006, 11:15 AM Reply   
"Even putting towers and v-drives on the same hull does not mean that it is wake specific."

Yeah, but it sure as heck means it ain't waterski specific. I didn't realize we had so many wakeboard boat designing experts on this board.
Old    jemiller06            06-02-2006, 11:35 AM Reply   
Let's be realistic, saying a boat has ski boat roots so it isn't designed from the ground up for wakeboarding is pretty misleading. Because a company still uses a v-hull design does that mean it has ski-boat roots? I am pretty sure that any inboard with a v-drive and tower isn't designed with a skier in mind.
MC's new X-star has no thought of a skier, the new VLX comes on a V25 wake hull. If a consumer wants a Malibu with a hull tuned for all-around water sports a dealer would recommend the "diamond" hull. Just my opinion, but when a boat has a hull designed for wakeboarding, has built in ballast, etc.. it is designed specifically with wakeboarding in mind. I am not a designer, just a consumer, but I don't think Malibu, MasterCraft, or CorrectCraft considered what a skier would think about the wake performance of their flagship wakeboard boat.

Dj, sorry about this. Your inital question has been answered by maybe 2-3 people. The rest have been ranting much like me in an attempt to justify one person's opinion over another. Maybe try to repost the question now that this post is so far off track.
Old     (fyrdawg29)      Join Date: Mar 2006       06-03-2006, 5:39 PM Reply   
J-rod, your right on the money. The VLX puts out a great wake on matter what you do to the boat. As for the epic, first off its got a hideous look to it. It may put out a big wake but so does an aircraft carrier.
Old     (gr8n8)      Join Date: Feb 2006       06-03-2006, 6:46 PM Reply   
DJ I have an 18' I/O With a 454 chevy.I put 400lbs in the ski locker. I Bought sand from homedepot. I feel thats the cheapest way to experiment. They sell 50 lb bags for only a couple of bucks at homedepot. Any way for a 5,000.00 boat and a novice boarder it puts out a pretty good wake. Now that doesn't mean when I get better I'm going to keep this boat. I will be buying an inboard. Also a hydrofoil is a must on an I/O.
Old     (cinder1995)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-03-2006, 7:03 PM Reply   
D.J.

You can get plenty of wake behind a runabout. I had one for years and believe it or not my wake with no weight in the boat was much better than my buddy's new prostar. Don't get me wrong, you can sink an inboard and still have enough juice to pull it though. How big is the fat sac and where did you put it?
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       06-03-2006, 10:09 PM Reply   
Ease up on Griff....

The verdict may be out yes, but he is right that the Epic was designed ground up with the serious wakeboarder in mind.

It gets me down when people go risk there well being, name, reputation, etc trying to bring about evolution to an industry that until a few years ago was stuck in the 80's, and very few people who all claim to desire what the Epic WANTS to offer are willing to lend support, or at least hold there tongue until they experience it for themselves.

Ive seen the Epic and thought it was a great looking boat....and I have a few shots of guys riding doubles behind it (throwing whirleys over one another no less).

Ill show you all soon, but it will be a couple weeks.

Lets keep wakeworld what it should be, respectful.

To me this post was a bad example of people jumping on Griffs post and reading the words for what they wanted to read out of it.



Old     (liveoz)      Join Date: May 2002       06-04-2006, 8:51 AM Reply   
Mike,

I reread the posts and Griff clearly bashed every other brand. You can already tell that they are going down a slippery slope as their main pitch seems to be that all other boats will be inferior because they were not built specifically for wakeboarding. It is not the first time they have preached this.
Old     (rson)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-04-2006, 4:01 PM Reply   
I'm slitting my wrist as we speak.
Old    formulacb            06-04-2006, 6:01 PM Reply   
DJ,
Keep in mind, a typical I/O boat will have more lifting strakes that are designed to help lift the boat onto plane keep it riding higher in the water. Most Wakeboard boats will have half as many. Also, with the 16-18 degree angle of the prop shaft pushing up on the rear, it can run more consitant at a wakeboard speed (18-22mph). Everyone has opinions on the best boat, but I've found the wake behind v-drives with a hydraulic wakeplate have the most versatility.
Good Luck
Old    gcreed            06-05-2006, 10:57 AM Reply   
Guys, I didn't bash any other company. In fact, I didn't even mention another company. Nor did I promise the best wake or try and sell a boat or anything of the sort.
Sorry you misinterpreted my words but chill out. I dig Malibu and I dig MC and I dig Nautique. As a matter of fact, I dig the entire industry and everyday thank God that I can work at a job I love and around fun, easy going (most of you) people in the wake industry.
Anyway, I know plenty about boats but can't say I've studied all boat companies on the planet and their engineering behind the boats. Sorry again for rubbing a few of you the wrong way. But I IN NO WAY tried to sell a boat, bash a company or claim to know everything there is to know about all companies in this industry. PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!
Old     (lakeguy77)      Join Date: May 2002       06-05-2006, 11:39 AM Reply   
Alot of my buddies out here ride behind a runabout of some kind. Of all of us, there's only an '88 Ski Supreme that checks in as a legit ski boat, and it of course has the best wake. I myself have an '01 Mariah 180 runabout (18-foot i/o with a 4.3L mercruiser...which is a heavy beast of a motor for just a V6 and largely responsible for the wake), and everybody seems to think the wake is actually very similar in shape and consistency to the Ski Supreme, but naturally can't keep up on the size front. I don't use any dedicated ballast, just load it up with people, move em around to balance it, and it works great. Nice solid wake for what it is. Beginners aren't overwhelmed, the experienced guys have enough to work with, guys in the middle have room to improve, everybody's happy.
Old     (rivrrunr)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-05-2006, 3:06 PM Reply   
thanks to the few of you who had input towards the actual post! i originally put the sac in the front of the boat with 550-600lbs. thinking i could trim up to push the ass down but it pretty much just washed out. then i moved it midway back, same result. all the way back seems to work best but it still doesnt seem much bigger. i guess the only differences ive noticed is that the wake is more solid which is good and my fuel gauge is usually what ends the night, which is bad! its like hauling four extra buddies that wont pitch in on gas! oh well like josh said i enjoy just being on the water regardless! maybe i should look into a hydrofoil?
Old     (brad63)      Join Date: Jun 2006       06-05-2006, 6:06 PM Reply   
hey what kind of tower did u put on your larson
Old     (jpk)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-05-2006, 6:40 PM Reply   
I've heard from several folks that the X-Star and 06 X-2 hulls are actually nearly identical to the original X-Star/X-1 hull below the water line. The X-Star and X-2 just added a longer and wider deck above the hull. I saw some pictures of them side by side and the big X-Star really does look like it's sitting on top of a tiny X-1 hull. So you could argue that even the X-Star isn't a wakeboard specific hull, it's just a modified deck on an old ski hull. But whatever, who cares?
Old     (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-05-2006, 6:53 PM Reply   
the wakes on the new xstars are so far from the shape,size and transition of the x1,old x2,old xstar hull that id have to say your off base somewhere...i do not like the new xstar wake at all its rampy,wide and hard to figure out, wheres the x1 is more peaky easy to build and easy get over...night and day in comparison...

i agree with GD on his comparisons and oppions on the old and new wakes...i have the exact same oppinions on all f them...

epic is walking a fine line by border line bashing other boats and using negative ad campaign to sell their boats...

they need to instead let their boats sell them selves by getting them ut all over the usa and abroad and let people ride behind them and get word of mouth out there..

it oesnt help that they are not around,not proven yet to the masses and are so expensive..

Old     (big_ed_x2)      Join Date: Jul 2004       06-05-2006, 7:15 PM Reply   
IMO I think that the X-Star and the X-1 wake are Identical as far as pop tho you got Longer transition and is wider on the X-Star but the actual shape I think is very close.(when X-Star is properly weighted)
Old     (mjmurphy53711)      Join Date: Mar 2004       06-05-2006, 8:22 PM Reply   
ed, good thing you added "when x-star is properly weighted"

needs an extra grand in the ass if you ask me.
Old     (jpk)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-05-2006, 9:06 PM Reply   
Again, this is just what folks at the dealer and on some forms have pointed out by showing the two boats side-by-side. The X-Star is bigger on top and the weight is distributed differently, so it takes a different weighting to get the desired results. They also said that because the X-Star is bigger, it can take more to weight it down. Somebody here might have photos of the two for comparison. But it makes sense, take a winning hull design and then engineer a way to make it into a longer and wider boat.
Old     (newman)      Join Date: Jun 2006       06-07-2006, 8:57 AM Reply   
dj, definitely get a hydrofoil for your i\o. It'll give you a cleaner wake with more weight in the boat at lower speeds. This is especially nice if you regularly get pulled by someone other than your #1 driver.
Old     (cinder1995)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-07-2006, 6:16 PM Reply   
dj- I had the S.E. 300 hydrofoil on my outboard and it really made a difference. It did kill the top end by a few mph though.
Old     (lakeguy77)      Join Date: May 2002       06-07-2006, 6:49 PM Reply   
As an I/O owner, can anybody provide some links to manufacturers and vendors for these hydrofoils? Definitely going to look into this one.
Old     (rivrrunr)      Join Date: Feb 2005       06-07-2006, 8:44 PM Reply   
just bought a hydrofoil on ebay last night for like $16+ shipping. cant wait to try it out. i rode tonight and saw a couple of guys riding behind a bass boat! we offered them a pull and the kid biffed so hard from air he almost knocked himself out.
Old     (jpshaff01)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-07-2006, 9:01 PM Reply   
I havent read this whole thread but, OH MY GOD, the hydrafoil is the best investment for your I/O or outboard. We put it on our 115 hp merc last year and it blew my mind, best $50 ever spent. We got the sport one that is at bass outdoor world. I read the package and thought it was a bunch of BS but it really does everything it says. Turns are better, faster(i guess i had a different result as eric), planes way easier. I figured it was a gimmick.


I found it at boaters world. This is the one i had maybe a store near you guys will have it
http://www.boatersworld.com/product/361090012msk.htm
Old     (olddude)      Join Date: Oct 2003       06-08-2006, 4:49 AM Reply   
8.1 Liter Engine and 4000lbs of ballast, the epic should have hugh wakes but I don't think any boat with that much additional ballast is going to handle very well and it takes the big block 8.1 liter engine to get that boat on a plane with that much weight in it.
Old     (lakeguy77)      Join Date: May 2002       06-08-2006, 1:52 PM Reply   
Thanks for the link Jon, just ordered myself one. Says it'll fit any i/o, and my mercruiser alpha is about as run-of-the-mill as they come. Looking forward to getting it on the boat!
Old     (cinder1995)      Join Date: Aug 2002       06-08-2006, 6:00 PM Reply   
I picked up mine at www.basspro.com

Just search the site for the S.E.300
Old     (lakeguy77)      Join Date: May 2002       06-09-2006, 6:43 AM Reply   
Just thought I'd put it up here, BoatersWorld.com won't ship the SE Sport 300 hydrofoil to Canada, but I found a listing on eBay for it, and it's $15 cheaper than any of the online vendors, and the seller has a 99.1% positive feedback score, AND had no problem shipping to Canada...

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4627026094&rd=1&sspage name=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Just wanted to share the wealth.
Old     (annq42)      Join Date: Mar 2006       06-09-2006, 10:44 AM Reply   
Hate to say this Griff, but Epic is still has a long way to go before it has a wakeboard boat that can hold really go head to head with the big 3 (MC, CC, and Mali). As far as being built from the ground up I think the X-star and the new X-2 are pretty revolutionary boats to the whole scene and the first to the punch, and I can tell you now that those boats were built from the ground up with one thing in mind, and thats GOING BIG. I started behind a MC '78 stars and strips. The shape was perfect, the size had a bit to desire, but you couldnt beat the shape. Truthfully, some boats that have really big wakes dont have the right shape for boarding and that only makes it harder on the boarder. All ski boats will, its just how they are built. Flat bottom, V-hull, or picklefork they all are designed to keep a certain shape, depending on speeds. A wake is almost a inverted design of the back 3/4 of the boat. So with I/O where their main design is to make a smooth ride, they will never keep a shape like a ski boat.
To fix your wake go to http://www.the-perfect-wake.com/
get past all the advertising and find the wake your boat is making now, and put weight in it to try to get rid of any wash you may have. Also pitch your prop to half way up.
Old     (wally247)      Join Date: Jun 2006       06-10-2006, 6:29 PM Reply   
thanks for asking this dj, I had to read through a lot of boat disagreements but I learned a little bit, my boat is a 19.5' Larson

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