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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Wakeboarding Discussion Archives > Archive through August 20, 2004

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Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-12-2004, 1:20 PM Reply   
When are Wakeboard and wakeboard binding manufacturers finally going to fess up and admit they have been doing things wrong since day one? There is no logical reason I can think of for wakeboard bindings to be mounted by only two screws. It causes a large amount of heel and toe lift which results in poor control, bent baseplates, stripped inserts, and in my case a broken-in-half plastic baseplate on my three week old, best bindings I have ever put on Liquid Force Super Suctions. I don't care that last years bindings won't fit on next years board, just fix the mistake and make quality products, rather than conforming to the sub-par standards of today.
Old     (jonm)      Join Date: Jan 2002       08-12-2004, 1:29 PM Reply   
I agree. It would make a heck of a lot more sense. My buddy is always complaining about his baseplate bending. I hate that feeling.
Old     (fatsac)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-12-2004, 1:50 PM Reply   
Hey Brendan, I'll be on Donner this weekend with a few other boats.
Be sure and flip us off as we terrorize "your" lake.
Old     (villageidiot)      Join Date: Feb 2004       08-12-2004, 1:55 PM Reply   
I agree. I've gone through two sets of Ultra Suctions this year -- both because of broken base plates. I can't think of one reason why LF thought plastic was a good material to make baseplates out of (with only two mounting points). But it's actually a good thing because it turned me onto the Wiley's Tri-Axis binding which is far superior to the Ultra's IMHO...

But it sucks because I've had LF's since the original Super Suc's of like 7 or 8 years ago.
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-12-2004, 2:06 PM Reply   
Mike
Respect Donner and the people who live on Donner will respect you. The people we are sick of are the ones that leave bags of trash at the ramp(or in the water which I HAVE seen), Trow beer cans in the lake, drive around like a bunch of idiots, and pull tubers around the only good part of the lake. If you are one of these people, then we have issues. If not, have a great time, if you need lessons you know where to find me. Just ask yourself what YOU have done to make our lakes better? I know what I have done.
Old     (toolfan)      Join Date: Jul 2003       08-12-2004, 2:08 PM Reply   
Cal. You the man. I thought I was the only Wiley fan. I would be ridding coyote traps if they had a different footbed. The Tri-axis are AWESOME. Indestructable and light as a feather.

Back on the subject, the 05 Gonzales has a raised spot where the bindings mount. This eliminates alot of the lift.





The Parks is the worst board when it comes to this. A pair of Parks bindings on a Park 138 (all the way out), has like 1/4 inch of space under it. The Claws mounting system makes it even worse. At one time, I thought about putting some sort of plastic wedge under them to make them set flush on the board.

Bindings mounting right on the rocker line, especially abrupt 3-stage rocker, have alot of flex.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-12-2004, 2:10 PM Reply   
A friend bought a pair of LF Ultra Sucs and the baseplate broke when he pulled his foot out the first day he used them.
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-12-2004, 2:10 PM Reply   
Cal - Its kinda a toss-up. Do you decrease weight by having plastic baseplates, or increase strength with metal ones. For me I would have purchased metal, but it wast availible. If they had 4 mounting screws I would have gone with plastic, as I do with my snowboard bindings (Drake). Either way, drove down to shop and got a brand new pair, if they want to keep handing out free bindings I will be in there every couple weeks until they fix the problem.
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-12-2004, 2:17 PM Reply   
John - That brings up another question, are they just using crappy plastic? If the binding breaks when you are taking you feet out (which can be difficult when they are new) they didnt use the right plastic, period.
Old     (villageidiot)      Join Date: Feb 2004       08-12-2004, 2:29 PM Reply   
Both sets of mine broke under the same circumstances. Wasn't even while riding, it was while pulling my feet out. Oh, and make sure you drink a lot of water before wakeboarding with the ultra's or get ready for some serious calf-cramp'age!!
Old    jrh2001            08-12-2004, 3:09 PM Reply   
does anybody know that bindings are designed with a little bit of flex in the plate so that when you land the boots give a bit on the board instead of your feet moving in the boots and in turn making your feet hurt. but if they break the company has got to change something
Old     (fatsac)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-12-2004, 3:22 PM Reply   
Brendan - I appreciate and have a new found respect for your position and the lake. Last summer, we had a guy burn by the boat within a few feet yelling that the corner of the lake belonged to him.
Hell - I wasn't even in my bingings yet.
Say hello - blue Maristar w/ a Boss tower.
Mike
Old    sperbet            08-12-2004, 4:02 PM Reply   
Brendan,

What would your boss think about you fu@#%in around on a wakeboard discussion board all day! GET BACK TO WORK!!!
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-12-2004, 4:12 PM Reply   
KYBOOL

What the heck is that??? How about KYDOOL
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-12-2004, 4:13 PM Reply   
Oh and Mike,

Have fun with the freeway like wakeboarding conditions on Donner Lake this weekend. NO THANKS
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-12-2004, 5:27 PM Reply   
Hate to interrupt the Donner thread, but...

Seems the coolest binding would be a snowbaord/snowski binding - in a crash, the boot comes out of the binding instead of the foot coming out of the boot. Just like snowski bindings, it might be cool to have a couple simple release adjusments, or better yet, rig it up so that if one releases, the other automatically releases. The main thing is that you could really get a supportive fit in your boot and not have to have it so loose because you're coming out of the boot several times during the run. Yes, you could probably make it light, and no, I ain't smokin anything.
Old     (magellan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-12-2004, 5:29 PM Reply   
You know what else would be cool, is an anti-gravity suit so I could make my F'ing backrolls.
Old     (electricsnow)      Join Date: May 2002       08-12-2004, 6:10 PM Reply   
I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but neptune had a four point attachment jobby with some of chase's boards. The insert set-up looked more like a snowboard...but it never caught on.

Toolfan, I like that pic of ricky's board because I didn't even know they had built in cants on their boards. So that, in combination with byerly's recessed deck have made me even more proud of greg nelson and his board designs. He incorporated both of those aspects into his boards back in 97 or 98(and here they are, making a comeback for the 05 season). So I basically love greg nelson and the old double up.
Old     (team_o)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-13-2004, 5:38 AM Reply   
Trust me, we would all LOVE IT if there was a way to go to 4-screw mounting holes in the plates. It would be so much easier to design a really nice baseplate, would help reduce flex, etc...

There are at least 2 big problems with this though: 1) everyone would complain that the wakeboard manufacturers were forcing the riders to buy new bindings (since their old ones won't fit on the boards anymore) and 2) all of the manufacturers would have to agree on a standard & do it at the same time, other wise it would be a big cluster and you would be forced into riding the same brand board & boot.

(Message edited by team_o on August 13, 2004)
Old     (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       08-13-2004, 6:06 AM Reply   
Use 3M Dual Lock and forget the screws if you have a flat base plate.
Old    r_dub            08-13-2004, 6:28 AM Reply   
Well, I think some company is going to do this eventually. But, they could make a baseplate that would fit their inserts as well as the straight down the middle inserts. I mean, it may look like this busy baseplate with holes everywhere, but its possible. Anyone who snowboards and is familiar with Burton knows that they went through this. They came out with whats called the "3D" design. Basically it is a 3 screw mounting sysytem instead of 4. When it first came out, I remember being pissed because I was limitted to buying their bindings. But eventually they developed an insert that worked for both their "3D" design the standard 4 hole design.
Old    jzwake            08-13-2004, 7:01 AM Reply   
Neptune did it with 2 of thier highend boards in 99' ( I believe). Its super simple and makes sence.
Old    mkivey            08-13-2004, 9:18 AM Reply   
Chris,

I see it as only one problem and that is the board and binding companies coming together to a standard hole design on the boards and mounting design on the bindings. Your concern on the consumer I feel is not warranted.

People will buy new stuff regardless of change. The people that get pissed because they feel they have to buy all new stuff will either do it or not. the board and binding companies focus on new buyers and return buyers. And that is a growing number. As this sport is in such a growth mode introducing new technology will not have a backlash. I think it will be the opposite. People will see how the new stuff is better and fork over the cash to buy it.

Just my 2 cents.
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-13-2004, 11:27 AM Reply   
I think bringing up Burton's 3D is the greatest comment yet. If the largest three companies agree on a format(maybe something like the hole pattern on the old baseless snowboard bindings) then the small companies will be forced to (and should want to) conform. The fact is that it will make the boards, and the sport better. I think on the binding side, if designed properly, you should be able to use new bindings on both the new and the old hole pattern. I could be wrong, but I think that a large percentage of people who buy new boards, buy new bindings with it. On the other hand I think alot of people buy new bindings, but may use them on an older board. This will give them the option to use it on the older board, then update later to a new board, with the new hle pattern. This will allow for slow adoption. If Hyperlite, Double-Up, and Liquid Force agreed on it, people would support it.
Old     (kybool)      Join Date: Aug 2004       08-13-2004, 11:30 AM Reply   
Karl-
The 3M Dual Lock, and a similar product Liquid Force makes improves the problem, but is far away from solving it. Like you said, it only works on thos flat baseplates, which rules out all of the new bindings that I would consider riding.
Old     (wakescene)      Join Date: Feb 2001       08-13-2004, 11:48 AM Reply   
I didn't read the whole thread...but why not just buy an old pair of LF Ultra's with the aluminum basplate and switch it out...problem solved!

Plastic is NOT the material for baseplates...apperently this took a back seat in the testing!

How is it that everyday wakeboarders are snapping LF bindings like most change underwear this year when LF claims that the testing was done by the pros?

*cough* FARCE!
Old     (magellan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-13-2004, 12:05 PM Reply   
Three years in the making bro.

Team tested.

Hey, my butt can chew gum.

(Message edited by magellan on August 13, 2004)
Old     (toyotafreak)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-13-2004, 12:13 PM Reply   
Nice, magellan. Real supportive.
Old    ridenice            08-13-2004, 1:31 PM Reply   
Just throw a pair of Bones on your bindings. Curved metal bars that keep the bindings from flexing. Your still only using 2 screws but the bones will save your investment.
Old     (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-13-2004, 2:51 PM Reply   
Brendan,
You are absolutely right. On my home grown boards I started mounting the bindings with 4 bolts instead of two 3 years ago. I found that it not only makes the binding stronger and more stable but you can make the board lighter because it doesn't need as much reinforcemnt around the bindings.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome Industries
Old     (socalwakepunk)      Join Date: Dec 2002       08-13-2004, 8:53 PM Reply   
Neptune used to make boards with 2 rows of inserts (4 bolts for each binding).

(Message edited by socalwakepunk on August 13, 2004)
Old     (ttuclint)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-13-2004, 11:41 PM Reply   
where is all the cheese to go along with all this whining ?
Old     (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       08-14-2004, 12:29 AM Reply   
this is the board electricsnow and Jeff were talking about.



then, there's thruster's design, w/ virtually unlimited stance options.



(Message edited by dakid on August 14, 2004)
Old     (team_o)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-14-2004, 8:18 AM Reply   
Lyle - I seriously doubt that more inserts = lighter board. The reinforcement is a little strip of fiberglass. The added weight of the inserts & ABS insert bars would more than offset any reduced reinforcement in the board.

Joe - I have never ridden or used a Thruster board, but have heard that the "groove" didn't work too well. Either you couldn't tell whether you were centered on the board or sand, etc got in the groove and made it hard to adjust the binding stance.

Also - You can refer to the Neptune boards as examples of someone who did it, but how long did they keep the system and what happened to them about the time they did that? Why did they drop the system after only 1 season?

Mark - The other problem with completely changing the hole / mounting system is warranty. Everyone is stoked when their "03" product breaks and they get an "04" model as a replacement. This is an easy option for the manufacturer since they arenít making "03s" any more. If you change out the pattern, now what do you do? Keep a bunch of old stuff around and then after a year toss it (since it wonít fit any boards anymore) or give the customer a cool "05" binding that won't fit on his board?

Not all plastic plates (or aluminum plates) are created equal. If you are concerned about plate flex, go to your local shop, mount bindings on a board & see how far you can flex the heel of the boot off the board by pulling the heel strap on the binding or using your fingers under the heel part of the plate. You will learn a lot. Some are super easy to flex, others are pretty stiff.

In the end, you are standing on a thick piece of foam.

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