flexboard ripoff (sort of)

......just to get your attention........but I am intrigued by the flexboards but believe we are being short changed.....by which I mean they should be coming with bottom contours. Basically I think we are being sold the dinosaur model....something that has been around forever so they can add a little bit each year to make a new board. The reason I say this is that you all know the flexboard comes from the kiteboard industry....and there they are now doing the following: "Founder Jimmy Redmond has married his complex and refined bottom shapes of his wakeboards into the newer Recoil style kiteboards. Founder Jimmy Redmond has married his complex and refined bottom shapes of his wakeboards into the newer Recoil style kiteboards. The new for 2008 Concept was specifically designed to excel for Mauricio in a variety of flat-water conditions as well as to be able to take the intense punishment of hitting kickers and sliders. The Concept is the most progressive kiteboard design that the industry has ever seen.


Anyways I think I may hold off on a flex board until they give us whats already out there....rather than buying one now and and getting a new little piece each year.



check out the bottom on this cabrinha board

http://www.cabrinhakites.com/boards/products/custom-08.html

(Message edited by absoluteboarder on February 29, 2008)

There was an article in Alliance last year that talked a little about why there was no bottom features on the slingshots. I believe it was written by Jeff McKee, so some will naturally consider it biased, but i think it makes good points nonetheless (at least for the current time being while flex is in its infant state.)

these are the main points i remember:

1. adding molded-in fins and channels and other such bottom features will disrupt the board's continuous and fluid flex throughout the board

2. molded in fins and other features generally create drag and drag is misinterpreted as "control"

3. Surf boards are plain on the bottom and have remained that way, unchanged for years. Surfing has been around forever and is the root to all other board sports. Featureless bottoms is a way to return to those roots.


I felt like My edge techniques improved a lot after riding a slingshot so i have to agree with #2 quite a bit. however, i do see "hybrids" in the future, and I don't fail to wonder some of the same things you are.
BUT, when has anything new ever come out and leap in bounds of progression in a matter of a year. I feel you are being a little harsh on flex... kinda like as if you were to stay away from skurfers (when they first cam out) saying that you will wait till twin tips come out. All the while you would be missing out.

i admit i don't know a lot about the kiteboards, but i don't think anyone is purposely holding back progression to weed every penny out of us. The very first model (of anything, wakeboard related or not) MIGHT occasionally be a simpler design or something to test the demand of the public and marketability(most of the time this is not so much by choice but lack of funds, until demand is established to bring in more funding), but even so i don't think it would be far from the desired "full product"

The Liquid Force board doesn't really have a major bottom feature. A single concave is a subtle curving down that would destroy you on landings. Not exactly something groundbreaking that they are keeping off the market. See below.


As for the Cabrinha board, i'm pretty sure they don't do flex like Slingshot or LF. It's more like a traditional wakeboard's flex.

The limitation comes from composites. Basically when you mold fins, double concaves etc. you are building a more dense section of material that will drastically alter the flex pattern. It will be very expensive to have a material that is durable yet can adjust its flex as needed in certain sections where more material is expected to flex like the thinner spots (if that makes sense).

So in short I think your verdict of them restricting the market is pretty much wrong. I may be indeed be wrong, but from what you have shown its not available.

....I dont know what else to say...as what is said below......even scalloped tails and such are coming into kiteboards...just check the sites. All I am saying is that we have gotton a very basic flex shape....while better shapes are already out there. The liquid force press has a rounded tail...like my infinity board had 8 years ago.

what else does this mean.....

married his complex and refined bottom shapes of his wakeboards into the newer Recoil style kiteboards.


the liquidforce boards are now single to double concave.......................and what I am saying here is that it is aleady possible to put bottom contour into a flex shape...as it is being done.

jeremy I read what you said but am a little sceptical (about the contour stuff)seeing where the kiteboards are going.

(Message edited by absoluteboarder on February 29, 2008)

Well, I can see slingshot not giving us everything they have, because wakeboards are a new thing to them, so it is possible that they are just testing the waters. Then when they have there foot in the door so to speak, they will start investing more money in producing wakeboards. Get more styles, some that would include the bottom features. They are a new company, and as all new companies, they start out slow. As for LF, i'm not sure.

There is a difference between a single concave, which is what the LF kiteboard has for its "complex and refined bottom shapes" and features such as molded fins etc. A double concave is basically just a "center spine".

What does a scalloped tail do? It might allow the board to sit a little deeper, thats not a big advancement by any stretch of the imagination. Your Marius has a squared off tip/tail, so did the Flight 69 from Wake Tech in 1996.

I don't know if I would call bottom features on boards technology, I think of it more as trends.

Yeah they change the way a board rides and can give them a different feel. But do they really make one board really perform better than another?

Look at some of the early boards they had very few bottom features on the boards. Then as time changed so did the boards and they started putting more phasers, channels, rails, tacks and molded fins on boards.

Now if you look at a lot of the new boards for 2008 they are very simple on the bottom. Like the new Murray. It's a really simple board. I think in the next couple years will start to see boards trending towards simpler bottoms with fewer features on them.

Board companies need something new to sell each year. It's a lot easier and less expensive to modify some bottom features and change a mold than it is to invest in new construction technologies.

flew boards are a rip off anyway. my board lands soft when i land on the tail too.

all boards land soft on the tail. but i bet a flex board lands softer. just as a mountain bike with SHOCKS would land softer landing tail heavy than a BMX bike. think about it. it will be softer. Its just all in what you like, and that is fine. it is fine you prefer a traditional board, but don't go claiming something as a ripoff, thats a little extreme

as for people who still think flex boards are expensive, namely slingshot. I beg to differ. considering the work that it has got to take to make a hybrid core of foam and wood with abs sidewall, piecing it all together in a solid and uniform shape, I think 400 dollars is generous.
the DNA and LF balsa core thing back when was 500 and more.

I have the Cabrinha Custom and the LF Lyman. The Cab board DOES have flex but it is not over the top. It works OK for wakeboarding but the Lyman OWNS it. The Cab board is better for kickers and sliders etc (no fins)...

After riding my slingshot, I will not ride a non flex board ever again. My slingshot tracks as well as I need it to and the flat bottom makes landing spins very forgiving. Have not ridden the LF yet but I bet it's a ton of fun.

(Message edited by mhsb1029 on February 29, 2008)

(Message edited by mhsb1029 on February 29, 2008)

sometimes I type.....with a bunch..... of periods between my words.

But I think..... a flex board will..... only flex..... correctly with as little contour as possible on the.....bottom.

No offense to Jeff McKee but he's just a dude who came up with a theory and some stuff that sounded scientific to back it up.

I think Jeff drank a little of the Slingshot Kool-Aid and wrote up his little piece.

I think Jeff is right that many of the features on boards may slow them down but I think he's dead wrong in his idea that boards should all be uniformly flat.

Now, I'm no scientist myself but here are my reasons for why Jeff is wrong.

#1: The Humpback Whale "tubercle" http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:WhalePower_Corp
Scientists thought it odd that a whale that had evolved for millions of years would have strange bumps on the front of the fin. It turns out that the bumps "tubercles" actually created far greater fin aerodynamic efficiency because it directed the water, thus allowing it to flow faster.

#2: Airplane winglets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winglets Ever notice how modern airliners often have little tail looking things sticking off their wings? They decrease drag.

#3: O'Brien Chevrons: they work.

Now that being said, I think very little true thought goes into the aero or hydrodynamics of the bottoms of our boards. But I'd love to be proved wrong.

not to beat a dead horse but big heavy hows this one?

sorry



Developed for the aggressive free style rider with a passion for rails, sliders and kicker (or whatever pops up.) The unique aggressive channel bottom design allows for the use of fins 50% smaller than on traditional kiteboards without loosing any edging ability. Standard with straps and pads, which can be removed to fit bindings.

side profile shows its still thin flexboard

Which bottom contours do you want?

Channels running the length of the board are pointless; they merely make the board grip when it shouldn't and make landings harder.

Why do you want channels at the end of the board when you have fins?

I personally don't notice much of a difference between boards with tunnels of different varieties, whether it's a single to double concave, or a board with a "vented" tail (I think this just has the same basic effect as adding fins, although I can see how it might help speed the board up a bit on edge while having a larger effective rocker).

Having a center spine can help soften landings, but this really isn't a problem with flex boards.

Changing the shape of the rail is an option on some flex boards, because they're tunable (ABS or similar sidewalls).

Tip/tail shapes can and are being incorporated into flex designs, but complicated shapes do VERY little to affect the performance of the board.

In my opinion, the best way to change the way a particular shape (by 'shape' I mean rocker and sidecut) rides is to alter the fin size and fin placement. This will affect how well the board tracks on edge, how well it tracks when it's flat, and how quickly it releases from the wake.

the flexboard in my mind needs more incorporated fins like in wakeboards...or like the board above would be a start. ....the fins on kiteboards and the slingshot recoil are very fragile and my mind not durable in wakeboarding.


if bottom channels and all that stuff would be of no benefit....then why have all boards gone that way over time and now kiteboards are starting the same.......usually this is due to progress.


I think a center spine could make a good flexboard even better


back to my original point....I just see wakeboard features creeping into kiteboards......and in wakeboarding we have made so much progress over the years but are not incorporating these ideas into the flexboard today....which I believe could be done.

Liquid force is prob, the best manufacturer equiped to do this but even they have started us off very basi with the press......like was said before I guess they have to take their time and go bit by bit, but when I see the two technologies...its hard to believe they cant be combined.


I guess in 5-10 years we will all be raving about the new flex board with bottom contours...because its coming.....and I am not getting any younger.....so I want it now!

Jeremy,
sorry man but Jeff is way off basis on point number 3. Surf boards are far from featureless. less so in the longboards but in shortboards there are a lot of discrete features that affect how a shortboard rides. concave and double concaves in wakebaording were seen on surfboard a long time ago.

although it may not seem like it, fins ARE bottom features. surfboards have plenty of different fin arrangments. some fins are glassed onto the board just like a moulded fin.

as far as a featureless bottom being the fastest. this too is not true.

The contours and shapes in the bottom of the board are what arrnage and organize the water underneath it and creates drive or speed out of the board. it might be beneficial to do a little reading and research into surfboard design. those shapers are smart dudes.

basically my point is that some of those point just arent true. surfboards are far more advanced in shaping than wakeboards if you ask me.

True that josh

without looking at the article and last reading it several months ago i would have to say that Mckee was largely saying that board companies are getting a little extreme on bottom features. (I am hoping i have not misquoted him,... i should have looked up a link, oh well) but surf boards deffinately have a lot less bottom features, BESIDES the Fins (which was my original meaning of "featureless") than many of the current wakeboards, this being said with a minimal knowledge of surfing.
of course there will be some shaping involved to get the most hydrodynamic effects, but i deffinately agree that some wake companies have been and are going overboard on the idea.

(Message edited by wakerider111 on March 02, 2008)

If you ever worked with wood frame metal buildings you would understand better why bottom features would reduce the flex. Picture a 2x4 laid flat between two buckets about eight feet apart. Lots of flex if you step on it. Now nail another 2x4 the same length to that one so that they make a T if you look at them from the ends. No more flex. Even a 1x2 nailed flat to the 2x4 would reduce the flex to the point you could probably stand on it without breaking the board.
It's the same reason the metal siding has "Ribs" running the length of it. If it was flat it would be flexible and weak. The ribs and channels in the metal reduce the flex and make it more rigid.
Bottom features on a flex board could probably be done but it would make the boards flex much less uniform and would probably reduce the flex to the point of being neglibable.
If the two fins at each end aren't enough to set a good edge than you probably need to work on your edging.

couple thoughts...first off, everytime you set an edge on a slingshot, the board loads up or flexes, thus changing the whole shape of the board. it goes from a subtle 3 stage to having more rocker curve in the recoil. i hear the response flexes even more!

second thought, where the hell does slingshot go from here??? are they just going to continue with the same two shapes, im curious to see what they got next!

Last, ive been saying for years boards need to go back to their basics. I love getting on my old Neptunes. In a lot of ways they are superior to all the new gizmos on the bottom of boards. I think molded in fins are sluggish (didnt stop me from buying several, ie: byerly's and premiers) For now i think slingshot has a good shape. they track great, they are loose, they butter, and they dont feel sluggish. They kind of found a niche in the market. Old school simple design but add the flex for its unique properties. I do however see slingshot coming out with semi-flex boards with all the bottom features at some point. with this industry you gotta always be doing something new so thats where i think it will go. what do yall think?

there was a little bit of a "slip of tongue" about a rumored "new addition to the flex line" of slingshot on another thread. cant remember which though

its a for sure thing that they would work on other designs anyway, no company is that perfect or ever will be. only in communistic markets ;)

ohh and another rumor of a whole other company sneaking up behind everyone is rumored in this thread

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quote:

Believe it or not I actually heard from a little bird that an entirely new brand is going to be launching at surf expo by some industry heavies. Keep your ears to the tracks on this one, things are going to start getting interesting...FINALLY...

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http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/550236.html?1204521298