12V Electrical Experts...Ballast switch and Relay

Hi all,

Here's the scoop. I've got 2 Simer Blue water pumps running in parallel connected to a 6 pole On/Off/On rocker switch that works great. Stan Tanner sent me a diagram last year that explained how to jump the six terminals properly to get a reverse polarity needed for the pump to run in reverse for draining. However the switch I originally bought is ugly and so I hid it under the Motor cover. Recently I decided to put in a new switch that I will place next to the driver's seat. Pretty much in the same place as where the factory switches are located on Mastercraft ballast systems. Now here's the problem. I went to my dealer and simply bought the switch that comes in the Mastercraft factory ballast systems for the rear ballast. The pic below shows the exact switch I bought. The problem is I can't even come close to wiring this thing up properly. So I was wondering if anyone could help?

I've been able to find a spec sheet for the switch and have translated the partial model number found on the side of the switch. The model number is V6D1.

V = Series (Contura)

6 = Circuit
In this case the Circuit is 6 which is explained as follows:

This is a Single Pole switch.
Position 1 = terminals 2 & 3 = ON
Position 2 = connected terminals = OFF
Position 3 - terminals 1 & 2 = ON

D = 20A 12V

1 = TERMINATION/BASE STYLE
8 Base Termination Jumper .250 TAB (QC) no barriers No

The terminals 7 & 8 are for the lamp circuit only.


Well I hope you're still with me.

From the research I've done it appears that I may have to buy either 1 or 2 30A Relays or possibly 1 reverse polarity relay. Frankly I just don't know. All the things I've listed are just facts I've pulled together from other post and spec sheets from the internet. I don't really understand much of it.

Can anyone help me get this switch to work with these pumps?

Thanks for any and all help.


-Bo

I assume from what you've been able to deduce that you've found the Contura Series of switches on Carling Tech's website.

Make sure you check out their ordering scheme too (requires Adobe Acrobat).

The switches you're looking for are Contura IV's. You won't be able to get the exact same thing though because Mastercraft buys hundreds if not thousands of them at a time. That's how they get their own legend on them.

Anyway, you want the series IV with the following attributes (roughly) as taken from the above page:

1-V
2-J
3-D
4-1
5-CL
6-6C
7-6C
8-B
9-E (assuming you want it to be the same as the one pictured above)
10-N
11-C
12-00
13-1
14-Try 7B (as I said above, you can't get the same legend unless you go through Mastercraft. Well you may be able to, but it would probably cost alot. Plus 7B looks pretty good and works well for a ballast system).

That should be a pretty good starting point, but I would double check everything with the distributor you order through.

Jason,

Thanks for the response, but I have already purchased the Switch. It is an actual Mastercraft ballast switch purchased from a Mastercraft dealer. The picture shown is the actual switch I purchased.

Thanks anyway.


-Bo

Bo,

Please explain the current connection setup you have with your 6 pole rocker setup?

After I get that info, I think I can help ya.

I have the number to the manufacturer for the boat switches dpdt for sanger and a couple of others. Clean swithces and can do any type of switch with lights you need and very cheap. I ordered a dpdt lighted on both sides switch and a 30 amp breaker and it was about 10.00 for both.

i have dual parallel Simers as well. i also bought a SPDT Carlingswitch that matches my OEM dash switches to run it. i'm switching polarity thru 3 regular 12V 30A relays this way:

the dotted lines are the positions of the relays with the control voltage hot. solid lines = control voltage off. make sure the diode can handle the amp draw of the relay coil, which is about 100 mA IIRC. put the relays and your pumps very close to the battery, and just use something like speaker wire to the dash for the control signals. i'm running a 40A circuit breaker on the high current side. works great.

ok, looked at my circuit, and it could use a another clarification: all you need is hot to the center pole of your SPDT switch - tying into the hi amp line is unneccessary. i just pull power from ignition-on for my control line.

also - it looks like poles 1 2 3 are the actual SPDT part of your switch. poles 7 8 should probably both be grounded to complete the circuit for the indicator lights, but i'm not sure on that part.

Trace, I like your solution, and it will work.

Do you think this will this work also?

http://www.underthedash.com/relayindex.html

word_two

good idea Dane, but i don't think you could turn it off with that circuit? maybe could be combined with mine to eliminate the diode, though.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I'm having trouble understanding the diagrams, so I'm going to study them for a little while and hopefully come up with an intelligent question or three.


Trace,

I guess the biggest problem I'm having with the drawing is that I don't know alot about electrical flow and I nothing about the terminal configuration of a relay. So, in other words if you could maybe label the connections from the pump to the relay I think it might make more sense to me. Do both + and - leads from the pump go into the Relay?


Thanks again for the help.



-Bo

http://www.fordfestiva.com/service/database/electrical/symbols.htm

fordfestiva.com? came up on Google... anyway, some good basic schematic education there.

Ya, you are right trace. Mine wont turn off!

I corrected my drawing to fix the ever-on problem using one more relay. I think this works. Trace, what do you think?
Disclaimer: all of this information should be assumed false!

I believe that 87a and 87 are always connected together, I could be wrong. To me it seems like the easiest thing to do would be to find a relay that does all that in one relay.

Dane- still gotta have the diode & jumper between 1 and 3 to turn it on in position 3.

Peter, 87a and 87 connected together renders the relay meaningless. These are the two switched side of the relay. Yes, it would be cool if one could find a relay that has forward, reverse and neutral (off) capabilities.

Here is a copy of what is inside the relay above.

Why is that Trace?

When in position 1, the thick blue wire is PWR and the thick green wire is GND.

When in position 3, the thick blue wire is GND and the thick green wire is PWR.

When in position 2 (off), the thick blue wire is OFF and the thick green wire is GND.

DOH! you're right. my bad.

I just went and tested a standard Bosch relay out of my tool box with my DVOM and the diagram Dane posted above is correct, so I stand corrected. I used relays to control my headlamps on my past vehicles and always wound up using one more to keep a backfeed out of the system.

Everyone,

Thanks for all the great posts. This truly is a learning experience. I've done enough research that with the diagrams posted I believe I can get my switch to work. I found a pretty good website that does a good job of explaining how relays work.

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/relays.htm



Trace,

Currently I'm using 2 pumps as stated before, to fill 3 bags. Each pump feeds equally into a manifold and each bag is controlled independently of the others with manual ball valves. But as a future upgrade I plan on adding two more of the switches just like the one pictured above and one more pump. This way I can control each bag from the driver's seat with a single pump and I won't have to fool around with actuated water valves. For me this seems like the easiest solution.

Since your setup is virtually identical to mine, I was wondering, have you ever thought about doing this? And if so, do you plan on the same architecture to switch polarity to each pump. In other words will you install 6 more relays? It just seems that 3 relays per pump is alot. When I do add the other pump and two switches in the future I'm just wondering where I'm going to put all that stuff.

Anyway thanks for everyone's help,


-Bo

Trace, there is a potential issue with your design if the relays turn on/off at different rates. The relays laid out like you have them could create a momentary short between power and ground if either of the following happen.

1) if relay 2 is faster than relay 3, then pwr shorts to gnd when relays 2 and 3 are turned off to on.

2) if relay 3 is faster than relay 2, then pwr shorts to gnd when relays 2 and 3 are turned on to off.

I think this potential does not exist with my solution.

Dane- yes, i considered that possibility when i came up with the circuit. at the time, i didn't have a better solution, but when i get some time i may switch mine around like yours. FWIW, i haven't had any problems, and it's been set up this way since i got this boat over a yr ago.

Bo- haven't really thought about adding more pumps to this system. i'm filling ~1800 lbs in under 20 min, which is satisfactory to me. in my old boat, i ran one Simer on a DPDT switch rated for 20A, and never had problems with that. you could just use 3 DPDTs if you could find them.

Is all of this hassle a good reason to try to use something like a Rule or Mayfair that draws less amerage and won't need relays?

Clint,

In my opinion the benefits of using a reversible pump far out way the drawbacks involved in the wiring. The actual ballast design is much simpler with this type of pump. I studied all the different ballast systems people were coming up with and a few factory systems for months before implementing my own, and to me this is the only way to go.



Trace,

Yeah that's kind of the problem, I'm not sure if I can get the switch I want(factory Mastercraft ballast) in a DPDT. Ultimately that would be ideal. I appreciate all of your help as well as all the other comments.


Regards,


-Bo

Link the relay...

http://www.partsexpress.com//pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=12211401&St=8100&St2=5807029 9&St3=74139723&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=9682&DID=7



Link to socket...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=9685&CATID=47