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Old    Phil Boyd (makesumwake)      Join Date: Jul 2015       06-28-2016, 12:10 PM Reply   
Im looking to buy a G21, either new or year old, but im not sure what options i should get.
does anyone have any experience?

im also thinking of trying the brown interior, looks awesome and would hide dirt.
it doesnt get that hot where i live in miami. typical summer day is in mid to high 80's

do i need the larger engine?



thanks
-Phil
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-28-2016, 1:13 PM Reply   
you need the 409 if used. you should get the 450 if new.
Old     (OneCent)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-28-2016, 5:15 PM Reply   
In Miami, if you don't go over stock ballast, or have all the time full ballast and 9 adults on board, you can get the smallest engine, not big difference.

Pocket air dam door, there are two versions.. a simple one and one the slide in from the side, way better if you need that.
Old    Ken (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       06-28-2016, 8:44 PM Reply   
Phil....don't waste your money with the 450 if you buy new....get the 409...well...technically 409 is gone...it's now H5 or H6 I believe. Unless you are running WAY over the factory ballast....you will NEVER need the bigger motor...get the H5...or even a year old 409. Don't get the expensive air dam....I never use mine...but I'm in Texas. Fancy sliding/pocket door one is well over $1000 option. Don't waste your money on that...save it for gas and beer....lol. I have the slide in cutting board one and have never used it. You'll love the G21. I say go with the brown....adds a different touch to the normal white and gray boat interiors. In Miami...I would go with no heated seats, no heater. Let me know if you have any more specific questions. KV
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-28-2016, 9:13 PM Reply   
Is the water more buoyant below the mason Dixon line or am I the knly one to find the 400/h5 under juiced?
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       06-28-2016, 9:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Is the water more buoyant below the mason Dixon line
I'm sure its more of a question of altitude, at sea-level the boat will run with more juice than if OP was buying the boat to use in Denver.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-29-2016, 4:19 AM Reply   
Obviously. But I find them to be pigs to drive with the 400 horse motor. Stock ballast or otherwise.

It comes out of the hole fine but you get into these situations where you're half on plane and the boat just does not have enough thrust to get out of its own way.

Last edited by simplej; 06-29-2016 at 4:22 AM.
Old    Mark (biggator)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-29-2016, 7:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Obviously. But I find them to be pigs to drive with the 400 horse motor. Stock ballast or otherwise.

It comes out of the hole fine but you get into these situations where you're half on plane and the boat just does not have enough thrust to get out of its own way.
Not just you. I vote 450.
Old    Mark (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       06-29-2016, 7:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Obviously. But I find them to be pigs to drive with the 400 horse motor. Stock ballast or otherwise.

It comes out of the hole fine but you get into these situations where you're half on plane and the boat just does not have enough thrust to get out of its own way.
I would say it depends on your perspective. My previous boat 22ssv running some where around 2500-3000 of ballast was a pig to get up. I also ride a 05 210 with about 2400lbs and it is also slow to plain.

Just picked up a G21 with the H5 and I really like it. It will pull up stock weight with 5 adults and 3 kids with no issues at all. I have added 500lbs of lead and with 4 people in the boat you can feel it but at no time was it anything like above. I will also mention it holds speed perfect.

I have been very impressed with the motor and I was pretty nervous about it. I don't regret it at all in the G21, I have seen this question asked a few times recently I need to get some metrics on et to plain.
Old    Ken (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       06-29-2016, 10:18 AM Reply   
Yes....I agree the 450 would be better than the 409 if you are pushing a lot of extra ballast and a ton of people in the boat. But in my case, how I use my G21 I don't feel the H6 would add any more enjoyment to my boating experience then my 409 does now. I have NEVER said "dang...I should have gone with the 450". Props to those who have it or want it. They are all great motors in awesome boats. Now pop a 550 in there and I'm sure there will be a bigger difference but also go through gas faster...and have to be more selective on the octane
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       06-29-2016, 10:22 AM Reply   
why aren't yall repropping these? dropping huge coin on motor upgrades seem ridiculous, put a new prop on and you should be fine with a smaller motor. isn't stock ballast like 2300 lbs?
Old    Ken (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       06-29-2016, 11:20 AM Reply   
Why re-prop when I said everything was fine with the 409?I guess you could re-prop but I personally see no need to on mine. Stock ballast is 2850 I believe?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-29-2016, 11:29 AM Reply   
why reprop? Do you want to turn ~4500 rpms at 22mph with the 2:1 drive and aggressive prop....? You're already spending COIN, a motor upgrade ups the price what? 3%?

Like I said, out of the hole? Fine, Once you come off the torque band and get into a situation where you need to apply throttle right after coming off ie. when you have a boat running up your a$$ to your rider, the 400 horse motor is not enough. Just my experience. The hull displaces too much water to really get moving again. The owner who's g21 I regularly ride in is upgrading, the 409 he bought is a big part of it.

Last edited by simplej; 06-29-2016 at 11:31 AM.
Old    Mark (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       06-29-2016, 11:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
why aren't yall repropping these? dropping huge coin on motor upgrades seem ridiculous, put a new prop on and you should be fine with a smaller motor. isn't stock ballast like 2300 lbs?
I just did not think about upgrading the prop when ordering my boat. It would have been on my list.

On another note the other things I would add to a build
transom stereo control
swim platform ladder
mooring cover
nautique bimini
phender pro

I chose to not do tower speakers and buy them after market.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       06-29-2016, 11:33 AM Reply   
^^^^ With both of the last two post. I have a 24 foot supra with the smallest engine they offer. It's the Indmar assault 325 and with just under 4000# of ballast it planes out just fine with a re-prop. Now with the cursing prop it had on it when I first bought it, It wouldn't plane with just 2200# and 5 or 6 people.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       06-29-2016, 11:34 AM Reply   
I'm talking about KEN and simplej
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-29-2016, 11:41 AM Reply   
Yes props make a huge difference. But....

your boat with 335hp motor isnt pushing a 9000+ lbs worth of wake making bath tub. It is not just weight, hull shape also plays a huge role.

A reprop will work, but why make the motor do more work for a 3% difference in cost off the bat?
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       06-29-2016, 12:44 PM Reply   
I agree with you but 3% is 3,000$ for the bigger engine or a 500$ prop. That a lot of gas money. If the deal was right I would take the smaller engine is all I'm saying. But like any other red blooded American I will always want the bigger engine.
Old    Ken (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       06-29-2016, 1:13 PM Reply   
Yeah...good points made. I can see the benefit of a re-prop....I feel I just don't need it with my 409. To me it has never struggled out of the hole or when I needed extra power. AND....the gas mileage is pretty darn good for this bath tub...lol. Now...if I trade up in a few years to a G23....I'll have to re-asses what's available power wise. All being said, I am super happy with the smaller 409 in my G21....and I am just speaking for myself. Now if I were buying new...a 2016 G21, I might drive both the H5 and H6 and see which you like better. I wish...bottom line on both engines...that PCM could get about 5 or 6 mph better for us fat guys that still like to barefoot a little to show off for the kids....LOL. It's a struggle for me now at 40 mph....I need about 45 to stay afloat.
Old    Mark (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       06-29-2016, 1:43 PM Reply   
Think we are just tossing numbers around but 3,000 is not the price difference between the h5 and h6 it is more than double that number.

I drove both the H5 and H6 before buying and there is a difference but is not as big as you think it is. Part of the appeal of the boat for me was the extra space and the fact I did not need any extra weight to enjoy the boat and the H5 allows me to do that with no issue. If you have not tried the H5 in the G21 I would highly recommend you doing that. It is not like the 13 G23 before the 2:1 or even the few EXT343 G21's. The H5 is very similar to the 409. The gas might be better and it might be running a higher rpm.

If and when i decide to upgrade to a 23 I would go for the H6, because IMO the 23 needs extra weight in it compared to the 21. The stock weight in the 21 is awesome. The only reason I added anything to it is because I have it laying around.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-29-2016, 3:14 PM Reply   
Okay I double checked so the h6 is about 7k not 5k. On your 140k nautique you're realistically talking 5% since we are spit balling around.

Last thing you want is to get on the water and say "damn should have gotten the bigger motor, now I need to go prop shopping" when you have a full crew and full ballast. I guess this really goes to show you need to test drive to see what you're getting and making sure it meets YOUR expectations. Yes I am aware, direct injection is truly wonderful, maybe it makes a huge difference with the power band. I don't know, but on outuput alone I am not convinced.

Plus like I said before: when autolaunch NCRS is on, it is fine out of the hole. Not at all a concern. There are weird times where I am like where the HELL is my power when if I need to circle back to a rider quickl, food for thought for the OP. Stay away from the 343 boats.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-29-2016, 3:28 PM Reply   
N3 boatworks did a side by side video of 2 G23's one with the H5 & one with the H6 to show the difference between both boats from a dead stop to the perfect pass beep. I think they were both running full internal ballast.

The G21(2014) I ride in with the 409 does totally fine with full ballast, plus an additional 1200lbs sacks and 4 peeps on the boat. No prob whatsoever.
If I was ordering brand new I would choose the H6, but if I can find a good deal on one with a H5, Id snatch it up in a heartbeat.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       06-29-2016, 3:35 PM Reply   
yea if I spent that kinda coin on a boat then had to put a prop on it to perform, somethings wrong. good the hear the natural 409 will do the job adequately
Old    DTB (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       06-29-2016, 5:03 PM Reply   
Have them put whatever prop you want on it when you buy it. For 120-130k they can fork out $600 on a prop.
Old    Ken (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       06-29-2016, 10:50 PM Reply   
I think Nacho's point is why do you HAVE to??? And he's right....you DON'T....
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       06-30-2016, 8:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
I think Nacho's point is why do you HAVE to??? And he's right....you DON'T....
I would disagree ... most of the people on this site aren't their target market -- and by that I mean the guy who is going to run 4k of ballast over stock. Their average buy is the guy who wants the biggest and best boat for his kids to surf, tube, ski, wakeboard, and be able to play on the lake. With that in mind they're proping it to do everything pretty good; rather than propping it to do one things extremely well.

With that said, I think at time of purchase it should be a question the dealer is asking and keep it simple. The buyer should choose their useage:
Hardcore wakeboard
Do-all
Top end speed and cruising

.... from there they would outfit the boat with the proper that fits their needs.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-30-2016, 8:37 AM Reply   
Manufactueres already do this.

Malibu axis for example:
Acme 1939 base
Acme 1235 "high altitude" or little extra weight
Acme 2249 for max torque
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-30-2016, 9:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
yea if I spent that kinda coin on a boat then had to put a prop on it to perform, somethings wrong. good the hear the natural 409 will do the job adequately
Everyone uses their boats differently. Some people prefer a prop that maxes out planing with a lot of ballast, but that usually brings top speed WAY down to mid-30s. Other people cruise more and prefer to make the trade-off of less planing capability with heavy weight, for that 45+ top end.

But, as someone else said, most manufacturers are going to offer a few optional props to suit your needs. Talk to your dealer about your goals with the boat and they'll get you setup with the correct option for that.
Old    Ken (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       06-30-2016, 10:01 AM Reply   
Yes Tom...you are correct in a way....but from what I understand, and I may be wrong....the G's only come with the prop that is ON the boat. Nautique nor PCM gives you options at the time of order to go with a different prop. NOW...your dealer may work on that, to give or get you a different prop...but it's probably coming out of your pocket unless you are in good with that dealer. Malibu Axis has a pretty cool deal with the choices mentioned above. 3 choices of props. Simple...can these be optioned on the boat when you order??
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-30-2016, 10:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenv View Post
Yes Tom...you are correct in a way....but from what I understand, and I may be wrong....the G's only come with the prop that is ON the boat. Nautique nor PCM gives you options at the time of order to go with a different prop. NOW...your dealer may work on that, to give or get you a different prop...but it's probably coming out of your pocket unless you are in good with that dealer. Malibu Axis has a pretty cool deal with the choices mentioned above. 3 choices of props. Simple...can these be optioned on the boat when you order??
They can be optioned at the time of purchase, but there is a cost to the upgrade... I'm not sure what the cost is.

If Nautique doesn't provide a factory option, then that's sort-of bogus. It's not PCM's problem to solve. They have no idea what the size or weight of the boat is, intended usage, hull clearance.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-30-2016, 10:27 AM Reply   
Yes when ordering our Axis for this year we had those prop options.

As an aside...
Stupidly, we went did not order the boat with 1235 because we wanted to see how our weight combo and the 400 horse motor play together in the T22 since it is an intermediate amount of weight and I don't want the boat to turn 4g when wakeboarding, which will be about 100 hours worth per year alone.

So I get in touch with acme what prop do I land on? 1235. DERP.

Little birdie told me that next year the 400hp/tq class motors will be all you can get from almost every manufacturer. the 6.0 is the new 5.7.
Old    Brian Garrett (beg4wake)      Join Date: Aug 2012       06-30-2016, 11:12 AM Reply   
One thing you have to take into account is re-proping isn't ALWAYS the best option. With the new 2:1 gear ratios, you have to be careful what you re-prop to or else you will be running WAY too high of RPMs when you're not loaded or what have you. And for some people who may have to go a little distance down the lake to get to their boarding spot, or who like to cruise every now and then, that's not a good option. Sometimes a higher horsepower motor with the stock prop IS the answer. Now I'm not saying the H5 won't be enough for the G21. But I can say that you won't ever need more than the H6!! I have it in my G23 and it's fantastic! And I personally love how well balanced the boat is between all functions with the H6, the 2:1 ratio, and the stock prop (even wakeboarding with 100% ballast plus 200# lead plus 8 people). If you don't think you will ever be going much over factory ballast though, the H5 is probably enough.

Now on other options....I have the Mojave brown interior... and I will say, it gets HOT QUICK! The actual temp doesn't really get hotter per say than a white interior, it just gets up to that temp a lot quicker! But just throw a towel down and you're fine. Be careful with young ones on it too or you'll likely have some crying children! But it's worth every penny and sneering face of pain in my opinion!

I also really like the arm rests in the bow (not sure if it's an option on the G21), and the slide in pocket door (though being in Miami you may not need it). Definitely opt for the transom remote and Phender Pro mounts. I got the camera rotating tow point only because it isn't a very expensive option, but it's pretty pointless. I also went with the factory optioned tower speakers. Yeah you can get them cheaper, but at least mine are covered under the FULL factory 5 year warranty. - Which is another reason to look at a '16! The warranty is awesome! But other than that and the different motors available, and the JL Audio upgrade (also way better than previous years), there's not many differences between the '16's and prior years. So you may be able to find a nicely optioned left over '15 for a decent price, or even a slightly used one for a really good price!

All this is just my $.02! Oh, and here's some pics of my brown interior!


Last edited by beg4wake; 06-30-2016 at 11:14 AM.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       06-30-2016, 11:39 AM Reply   
LOVE I mean LOVE the color of your boat!!!!!!
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-30-2016, 11:54 AM Reply   
^^^boss
Old    Brian Garrett (beg4wake)      Join Date: Aug 2012       06-30-2016, 2:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonblarc7 View Post
LOVE I mean LOVE the color of your boat!!!!!!
Thanks!
Old    Brian Garrett (beg4wake)      Join Date: Aug 2012       06-30-2016, 2:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
^^^boss
It's my "Shaun Murray signature edition #1 of 1"! haha. Shaun signed it at the factory, then Steve Carlton (the designer of the G series) dremmeled Shaun's sig down and refilled it with black gel coat!

No matter what Nautique you get, you'll be more than pleased! I came from a Mastercraft and though it was a great boat, I'm just completely satisfied with my new G!

Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-30-2016, 4:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Yes when ordering our Axis for this year we had those prop options.

As an aside...
Stupidly, we went did not order the boat with 1235 because we wanted to see how our weight combo and the 400 horse motor play together in the T22 since it is an intermediate amount of weight and I don't want the boat to turn 4g when wakeboarding, which will be about 100 hours worth per year alone.

So I get in touch with acme what prop do I land on? 1235. DERP.

Little birdie told me that next year the 400hp/tq class motors will be all you can get from almost every manufacturer. the 6.0 is the new 5.7.


Yep, they're ditching the 5.3.

The 6.0 from Crusader is different than the PCM version. PCM switched to the direct injected version of that motor, while crusader is still selling the MPI version.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       06-30-2016, 7:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
Yep, they're ditching the 5.3.

The 6.0 from Crusader is different than the PCM version. PCM switched to the direct injected version of that motor, while crusader is still selling the MPI version.
I heard the 5.7 is dead. Not sure about the 5.3 but i would not be surprised if it suffered the same fate. 6.0 is the smallest you will be able to get in a boat from crusader, I know that for a fact.

I also hope you guys like big huge touch screens
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-01-2016, 7:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
I heard the 5.7 is dead. Not sure about the 5.3 but i would not be surprised if it suffered the same fate. 6.0 is the smallest you will be able to get in a boat from crusader, I know that for a fact.

I also hope you guys like big huge touch screens
The 5.3 isn't dead, yet, but maybe. PCM JUST adopted that engine last year, and they are running the latest and greatest Direct Injection version that GM offers. It's the same engine that comes in all the new 1500 sized Chevy trucks/suv's. Similarly, the PCM 6.0 is the same engine in all the new 2500 and up gassers. Also Direct Injection.

Crusader, on the other hand, is only offering the OLDER style 6.0, with the traditional Multi Port Fuel Injection.

You are correct that the 5.7L is gone. GM halted production.

I'm betting the 5.3 DI Engine will live on and do well, at least for GM and other engine marinizing companies. Maybe in the tow boat world it will be ditched, though. Hard to say.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-01-2016, 7:33 AM Reply   
wait, you have to throw a towel down over that beautiful interior cause it gets too hot?? that sucks

looks great!!

Last edited by denverd1; 07-01-2016 at 7:41 AM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       07-01-2016, 7:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardjnky4 View Post
The 5.3 isn't dead, yet, but maybe. PCM JUST adopted that engine last year, and they are running the latest and greatest Direct Injection version that GM offers. It's the same engine that comes in all the new 1500 sized Chevy trucks/suv's. Similarly, the PCM 6.0 is the same engine in all the new 2500 and up gassers. Also Direct Injection.

Crusader, on the other hand, is only offering the OLDER style 6.0, with the traditional Multi Port Fuel Injection.

You are correct that the 5.7L is gone. GM halted production.

I'm betting the 5.3 DI Engine will live on and do well, at least for GM and other engine marinizing companies. Maybe in the tow boat world it will be ditched, though. Hard to say.
Yes I know. The crusader engines are not ECOTEC engines, its the old L96. The 5.3 DI has a similar power curve to the 6.0 MPFI but with less power as purchased from GM. I have no idea what PCM did to massage an extra 70lb ft from it from the GM shop floor and into the G. Perhaps greater tuneability with DI, I know it works wonders in a forced induction engine.

The H6 PCM DI motor is a 6.2, the L86.

.
Old    Gary A (Ride725)      Join Date: Jun 2015       07-02-2016, 6:29 PM Reply   
I'll have a 2015 G21 for sale in August. Fully loaded with 450 and every other option. Priced way below bluebook.

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