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Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-29-2005, 12:41 AM Reply   
I know lots of people have been waiting to see the new NVS Addiction speakers so here you go.
Addiction

The HLCD is actually mounted behind the 10" full range driver. The voice coil of the 10 kind of acts like a horn, pretty unique design. Sounded very impressive as expected, coming from Duane.

Good work Duane/Todd.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       01-29-2005, 11:11 AM Reply   
Very nice looking. The 'regular' NVS are designed such that it might not get in the way of the bimini. Is this likely to hang down much lower?
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-29-2005, 12:11 PM Reply   
This looked like it hangs down about 1" lower then the Entity but you should with Duane if you think it will be close.
Old     (texasbear08)      Join Date: Jan 2005       01-30-2005, 10:44 PM Reply   
So are a pair of these Addictions (around $1200) better than one Entity 1010 (around $1000)??? That would be 2 horns and 2 subs vs. 1 horn and 2 subs right?
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       01-31-2005, 9:42 AM Reply   
I'm sure they sound incredible. Who's going to be the first to put 2 pair of these up on their tower....4 drivers and 4 horns. How much does each pod weigh...my guess 20 or so pounds?

Mike,
How did they sound compared to the 1010's?

(Message edited by acurtis_ttu on January 31, 2005)
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-31-2005, 1:39 PM Reply   
I was a surprised by their sound. Having half the mid/bass cone surface I expected them to be a little more bright. However I found them to be a little smoother on the high end but they were still surprisingly strong in the mid/bass frequencies. The acoustics of the concrete building made a true comparison fairly difficult. I stuck around after the show and Duane turned them up, I pissed myself . But seriously, I think he did a very good job of irritating the other vendors even he was trying not to. Duane is trying to give a good demo at the minimum volume level to show his system and the other guys are blasting theirs as loud as they can. I guess there was a little impromptu "blast-off" in the hall with all the stereo gear. Unfortunately I arrived just after it was done. The only evidencee was a little cloud of white smoke coming from one of the other vendors displays. I was sorry I missed it.
Old     (monstertower)      Join Date: Mar 2003       01-31-2005, 6:59 PM Reply   
"HLCD is actually mounted behind the 10" full range driver" OK, I'm confused. Is this a 10" midbase "coax" with an HLCD horn in the center instead of a tweeter?
Old     (jaubrey)      Join Date: Feb 2003       01-31-2005, 7:05 PM Reply   
I hear the speakers are unbelievable but once again I wish NVS would make a more eye appealing speaker that still possesses the unbelievable sounds.
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-31-2005, 10:00 PM Reply   
Jared, Bill, etc,
Firstly, Mike, thanks for spreading the news once again.
Regarding the purported "Blast Off" it was just that when I arrived at the hall/building where everything was going on, all I heard from accross the room was boom boom boom. That's fairly easy to do in a room like that.
So, since my buddy Kirby (that's helping with the booth)hadn't really turned things up yet, I decided to check it out for a minute our two myself. I couldn't belive how many people suddenly flocked to our booth. It was like a magnet. John from Scramin Sacs came over and said "I knew that was you, nobody else could do that loud and clear"...thanks John.
Talltigeguy: Glad you like them, yes they do hang about 3/4 inch lower then the Entity.
Adam, very very close guess.
Jared, sorry you don't like the appearance. Please send me an email to NVSAirWarrior@yahoo.com and let me know what you'd like to see. I'll try to accomodate you.
Illusion owners: We are close to finishing the adapter mount such that the Addiction will mount high in the corner of the tower near where the rear tube connects the main cast aluminum section.
jon bassham: firstly, please don't call them subs. The are Pro Audio mid bass drivers and compression drivers running from about 150 to 4k Hz. comparing to the Entity, Yes, the performance is between that of a single Entity 1010 and a pair of them.
Curtis, I've already got 1 follow about to pull the triger on 2 pair of Addictions. I told him he was insane.
Thanks again,
D out
Old     (raider40)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-01-2005, 6:40 PM Reply   
So if I'm reading your comments right a pair of Addiction speakers would be performance-wise somewhere between a single or double 1010s? How would they compare to the 808s?

What kind of power are you recommending running to them?
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-02-2005, 12:23 AM Reply   
Zack,
You are correct stating the performance between that of a pair of Entity 1010's and a single Entity 1010. Regarding the comparison of the Entity 808's I would say this:
The 808's were built first and was a "Holy If you never hear the 1010's you will continue to think that nothing can beat this. At the closer positions such as the swim deck, it may be true in that little difference can be detected 808 vs 1010. The difference though is at 80 feet and riding. Comparing the two here is another "Holy when running the 1010's.
So, if looking for the order of all things NVS, it's:
1) Entity 808 (single)
2) Entity 1010 (single)
3) Addiction (pair)
4) Entity 808 (pair)
5) Entity 1010 (pair)
6) Addiction 2 pair.....this is insane!
Power for the Addictions is 250-300 RMS at 4 ohms.
D out
Old     (raider40)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-02-2005, 6:35 AM Reply   
Duane,

Thanks for the answers that list is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm just trying to decide whether I want a pair of Addictions or pair of 808s.

I have lusted after having a pair of the NVS speakers for about as long as they've been out but just can't pull the trigger even though I know they're the best around. The Addictions caught my eye with the pricing but the 808s are what I really want.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       02-02-2005, 7:14 AM Reply   
Zack, either way you'll be impressed. The way I look at it is the difference between them all is probably noticable when put up against each other, but stand alone they'll be better than almost anything else out there. Kinda like TV shopping...You look at 4 flat screens by different manufacuturers and you can see the differences at the store but take the one you picked home (regardless , if its the best or not)and your friends are like that's the clearest screen I've ever seen. I was the same way, when deciding on (1) 1010 or the pair. Everyone who rode in my boat thought one was insanely loud...I could have stuck with just one and probably would have been one of the loudest,clearest on the water, but couldn't resist having the pair. Hope this analogy didn't confuse you
Old     (hsmunoz)      Join Date: Nov 2004       02-02-2005, 8:17 AM Reply   
Duane,

sorry I missed you at the show, I ran into Todd, and he gave me a demo on the 1010's and the Addictions. I thought the Addictions sounded very clean, but the bass coming from the 1010's is the S**T!. glad I got a set. You guys need to tell that vendor that is about 50-60ft ways, to pad thier glass display because when you crank up the speakers, those glass enclosures where dancing around and I could here them vibrating.

regards
Henry
Old    andyvansicklen            02-02-2005, 9:05 PM Reply   
Duane,
What are you guys doing as far as distribution goes? I work for a pro shop in Stockton and would be interested in your products. From the hype they get, I think they would sell really well and we would be able to expand your market into Stockton/sac also. Shoot me an email @ andrewvansicklen@yahoo.com with any info. Look forward to hearing from you.
Andy
Old    wallystyle            02-26-2005, 9:29 PM Reply   
WOW! I think I'm sold on NVS. Can you guys recommned a good amp too? Thanks! I'm stoked and can't wait to get these these pumpin'.
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-26-2005, 11:26 PM Reply   
Bryan,
NVS is establishing a relationship with Zapco. If you'd like to consider these fine products,or Polk Audio, contact me through our website and I can share more details. Other opportunities are available as well.
Thanks again,
D out
Old    footin_farley            02-27-2005, 12:32 AM Reply   
Duane-

With two pair of Addictions, What size amp would you recommend to push them? Zapco or otherwise?
Old     (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-27-2005, 5:21 AM Reply   
one question. Getting ready to outfit the new ride how would one par of addictions compared to my old rides 4 MB's? Everything I hear is that amps being comparable the addictions would smoke the MB;s, is this correct?
Old    blue_malibu            02-27-2005, 8:15 AM Reply   
Are these speakers better then the deafcon IV or v?
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-27-2005, 9:21 AM Reply   
Ryan,

I don't believe that Duane can make a public comment being politically correct. But here is my 2 cents...

I have not heard the deafcon IV or V but I believe they are made with Image Dynamics drivers and horns. From what I read, Image Dynamics is one of the most respected speaker builders in the car audio world. The deafcon speakers use a 8" cone, single on the IV and doubles on the V, in conjunction with a single horn.

The NVS addiction uses a 10" cone so it is right between the IV and V in terms of cone area. The NVS drivers are custom made for the application from one of the leading pro-audio (as in soundstage) speaker manufacturers. The tweeter is a compression driver mounted coaxially with the 10" driver.

Here is my opinion. The NVS addiction should sound better at the rider, the Deafcon should sound better in the back of the boat. Again I have not heard the Deafcon systems so I am guessing.

I use my tower speakers to provide music to the rider and my boat speakers to provide music inside the boat. I might even mount my tower speakers on top of my tower so they don't overpower the people sitting in the back of the boat. Based on size, price, and technology I think the NVS addiction may provide a more effective solution.

It is extremely difficult to really understand these speakers without hearing them from the rider's position. I thought many of the systems out there were effective until I took a test ride behind a pair of NVS speakers. I hope to get the opportunity to ride behind a boat with the Deafcon's this summer.

Mike
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-27-2005, 10:18 AM Reply   
Waterlover,
Each pair of the Addictions is 250 RMS x 2 at 4 ohms.
Shane,
MB Quart speakers are very fine products as designed for cars. As are Polk Audio, Image Dynamics and a host of others. Powered and tuned properly any of those would likly end up to a personal taste or price to make your choice. However, none of the manufactures I listed make Pro Audio speakers desiged for use by musicians in concert/stage settings.
Typical car audio speakers will have a sensitivity of about 86 db (some a little more some a little less). Based on the understanding that each 3 db is equivalent to a doubling of output it takes 3 or more typical car audiio speakers to equal the output of 1 Pro Audio speaker which will have a sensitivity of about 97 db (some a little more, some a little less).
Ryan, the above statements may answer your q as well. However, a simple "Better" should be qualified as to what "Better" means to you. The simple output of a speaker is only one characteristic and it will depend on your goals and objectives as to whether or not it is the most important characteristic for your application.
D out
Old    wallystyle            02-27-2005, 10:36 AM Reply   
Can someone please provide me with the weights of the NVS series? Thanks.
Old    wallystyle            02-27-2005, 10:37 AM Reply   
Also, it there a special wiring harness, or can I use the same one as the deafcon's?
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-27-2005, 11:08 AM Reply   
Bryan,
The Entity series from NVS are at 37 lbs.
The Addictions are 23.
Regarding the wiring, we recommend a 12 gauge wire of good OFC quality. Some run them at a lighter 14 gauge without difficulty but I would not recommend any lighter gauge then 14.
D out
Old    iwakeonwater            02-27-2005, 12:32 PM Reply   
Hey,
Can you guys give me your thoughts on NVS in comparisson to WakeDesign and their MB Quartz product?
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-27-2005, 7:13 PM Reply   
That's kind of like comparing a dragster to a riced civic in a drag contest.

I have been doing some testing on car stereo cans, some Polk stuff (db675 and momo's). They pretty much go dead at about 40 feet out even with maximum power. Think of the last time you saw a live show, the sound just starts coming together at 40 feet out really sounding good at a riders 75' out which is why pro-audio gear makes such a good choice for a riders focused sound system.

This argument may apply to the Deafcon IV/V gear but I don't yet know.
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-27-2005, 7:52 PM Reply   
Mike,

I need to respectfully disagree with your comparison of the NVS and the Skylon Deafcon IV and V Reference. The pro audio grade 8 inch Image Dynamics mid-bass drivers put out incredible bass between 50 and 200 Hz and are very efficient. I would compare these to the Eminence mid-bass drivers used in the NVS. Skylon is also using HLCD (horns). The Deafcon IV and V are definitely designed for 80 feet back, but still sound incredible at the back of the boat because of Image Dynamics' perfectly designed crossovers.

We have proposed a sound-off between the NVS Entity 1010 and 808 and the Skylon Deafcon V Reference somewhere in between Discovery Bay, CA (NVS) and Portland, OR (Wakeside). Image Dynamics has offered to provide the professional measurement tools needed to measure SPL and DB at 80 feet along with a frequency range chart (also at 80 feet).

I know that both the NVS and the Skylon Deafcon IV and V Reference are incredible sounding systems and they are both designed for 80 feet back.

This press release explains the new Deafcon line for those who are unfamiliar with the big project of Wakeside Design Studio, Skylon, and Image Dynamics:

http://www.wakeside.com/news?a=skylon_deafcon_reference

Other factors to consider when buying a high-end system:

1) rigidity of the wakeboard tower considering the total speaker system weight up there. I don't know the weight of a pair of NVS systems but the Skylon Deafcon V's are really light at 50 pounds. Does a pair of NVS 1010's weigh 74 pounds? I couldn't tell from Duane's post above.
2) style and fit and finish (very much an personal preference)
3) cone material for a marine application (depending on use, paper cones can be a problem - I couldn't use paper cones on my boat)
4) finish options (carbon fiber looks really cool to me - again personal preference)
5) I love LED down lights to add a reddish ambiance inside the boat (I know - it doesn't add to the sound)
6) Impedence. A system wired at 2 ohms (like the Deafcons) can double the watts (RMS) of the amplifier if the amp can handle a 2 ohms load. A 4 ohm load requires twice the size of amplifier.

Mike
http://www.wakeside.com
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-27-2005, 7:59 PM Reply   
in all honesty i dont think you cant go wrong with either nvs or image dynamic reference...

a lot will depend on the amp, headunit, and assoicated gear and appearence of the individual units.

i have a lot of respect for nvs for being first to the market and image dynamic for making very, very ,very high quality gear.

one of the problems is the difficulty of a side to side comparison and buying experience..skylon sells through dealers.. doesnt nvs only sell direct ?? ( i am sorry if i am wrong)

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 27, 2005)
Old    wallystyle            02-27-2005, 8:18 PM Reply   
Ok, here's my question, with the new technology of the horns to project the sound to 80 feet, does that mean that the NVS does NOT sound good at the boat? How about the new reference? I know you have boat speakers for the riders in the boat, but still, I would want something that sounds good to the rider 80 feet and the ones in the boat. Thanks for all your thoughts, guys. I just want to make sure I make a good decision, since we are talking about a $$$ purchase. Thanks.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-27-2005, 8:39 PM Reply   
HOLD THE PHONE TYPING IDIOT HERE...

The final line of my post should have said:

This argument may NOT apply to the Deafcon IV/V gear but I don't yet know.

Mike H. so sorry I left out the very key NOT in my original post. I have been looking forward to hearing the new skylon stuff. I was specifically excluding the new Deafcon's from my moronic comparison.

I am very pleased to see the new Skylon offerrings. As I have said many times on these boards using car door speakers in cans is not very effective, in no way do I consider the new skylon offerring car door speakers.

Right now I think there are two players in the ballpark, NVS and Skylon IV/V.

Again sorry for the poorly placed typo, DOOHH.

Mikeski
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-27-2005, 8:44 PM Reply   
Bryan,

Saying either of these speaker systems sound bad anywhere probably results from people doing sound tests in garages, boat shows, showroom floors or other enclosed areas. These speakers are designed to project sound. If they are projecting sound into a surface that shoots it right back at you things get ugly pretty quickly from a soundwave standpoint. This is why I suggest a demo "ride" before judgement.

Mikeski
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-27-2005, 9:17 PM Reply   
Mikeski,

Now your post makes sense. You were comparing the car door components found in most tower speakers to the pro audio drivers in the NVS and Skylon Reference.

Horns can sound harsh if the crossovers are not right. I believe that both NVS and Skylon/ID have done the crossovers right. They are still very loud at the back of the boat, but not harsh.

I expect many of the big tower speaker manufacturers will be adding high-end systems with 8-10 inch mid-bass drivers, pro audio, and HLCD for next season. Most likely, we will see an unveiling at Surf Expo in September. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boss, Fluid Concepts, Mako, and possibly Titan to add new models.

We can all be thankful to Duane for the innovation of being first to use pro audio and HLCD. That doesn't mean the car audio based systems are obsolete. There are many boat owners that don't care about SPL at 80 feet back. Some only care about great sound quality at the back of the boat or near the boat and styling. For that, car audio components like MB Quart, Diamond, and Kicker in aluminum enclosures are great.

Those that want big bass and high volume for the rider now have a couple of options. Next year there may have a half dozen options.

I believe that this kind of innovation is very good for the boat audio industry just like cars and boats just keep getting better every year. Competitors all learn from each other and keep leap-frogging each other (look at the new Audi A6 and the Infinity M45 Sport). That's what is wonderful about the free enterprise economy.

Somebody ask about the marketing model of NVS versus Skylon. I think NVS is only sold direct. Skylon is sold through both boat dealerships and Authorized Internet Retailers.

Mike
Old     (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-28-2005, 8:33 AM Reply   


http://www.wakeside.com/news?a=skylon_deafcon_reference


That press release cracks me up!

Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       02-28-2005, 9:33 AM Reply   
what are the specs on the mid bass and compression drivers for the Skylon reference?
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-28-2005, 9:40 AM Reply   
Joe,

You need to keep in mind that a press release is different than this forum, our website description, or if we talked to you on the phone or by email. We are a major (Gold level) sponsor of WakeWorld.com and that is why they publish our press releases and David welcomes us to be an information conduit within the forums.

A press release is like a newspaper article that attempts to report on a significant news event. A press release from a company involved in a major project obviously would have a marketing slant to it.

We believe that the new Skylon Deafcon Reference is news worthy for those looking for a high-end wakeboard tower speaker system that was designed by a team comprised of Wakeside Design Studio, Skylon, and Image Dynamics. Now NVS is in great company instead of being the only tower speaker system that was designed for 80 feet back.

Without the press release, how would anyone know? We wanted to make sure everyone knew that the Reference series wasn't a cosmetic change, but technically designed on the same concept as NVS. As a matter of fact, Duane influenced me (we even talked privately) and we started the project with Skylon and Image Dynamics before Duane launched NVS last year. A big project like this with a major manufacturer like Skylon takes more than a year to complete.

Bigger companies like Skylon and Wakeside need to balance professional marketing including magazine ads and press releases with the more intimate communication and customer service that happens on the phone, by email, and through forums.

Wakeside is totally devoted to excellent customer service so we invite anyone to call any time to discuss the new Skylon Deafcon Reference series if there are any questions.

Mike
1-866-925-3743
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-28-2005, 10:01 AM Reply   
OK, time to chime in.
Firtly let me thank all of you for the support in propelling NVS as the leader in "Sound for the Rider" Tower Speaker Systems.
Mike from wakeside recognized this last year and after numersous discussions between us he embarked on a project to emulate the NVS design of using Pro Audio transducers with HLCD's on a tower. Although I haven't heard one yet, I think the result is very good. I'm actually surprised that Skylon is so far the only other one. I agree with Mike that this will not last long as the simple efficiency of Pro Audio equipment vs Car Audio equipment is as Mikeski put it "compairng a dragster to a riced civic in a drag race".
They both have their place, it's just not the same place.
I found pretty early on that most people just can not fathom the difference. When I tell them that a single Enity can deliver more clean volume to a rider than 6 x 6.5 inch car audio speakers they just can't comprehend this....till they experience it. That's why from the very beginning we insisted on coming out and getting a free ride and test for your self.
Listening/testing ANY speaker system oustide of the environment that you intend to use them in is only fooling yourself.
The speaker industry has established numerous standards to help the consumer in comparing one transducer to another. But this data is only good for use in the "A" chamber that the data was collected in. Once you step outside, it's another ball game. The toughest game in town is the one at 25 mph behind a boat that is chopping up the water and the listener is as much as 90 feet back.
The size and weight issues of efficient transducers does present a problem for some older towers. I'm glad that Skylon is working on this as well. NVS has focused our efforts here as well and has resulted in the recent release of the NVS Addiction. The NVS Addiction is a result of further Engineering and Development and a speaker built just for NVS. Using a Poly Ply cone and a Titanium Domed Compression driver, this speaker only uses 10 1/2 inches of your tower yet will blow away speakers using over twice the tower space.
The state of the art for Tower speakers will for a while yet continue to grow. NVS is dedicated to continue to be the leader in this development.
At present no one can argue that the Skylon Def series and the NVS Entity's and the new NVS Addictions are at the top of the performance spectrum for tower speaker systems designed for the rider.
I'm certain that sometime in the not to distant future a direct comparisson of these systems will occur.
As far as different marketing stratagies go, all I can say is that NVS has fewer hands to feed. But that could change anytime now. We are also very appreciative of our customers as we find them to be the best promoters for our products and customer service. We do ship systems clear accross the country in 4-5 days and if that's not fast enough, let me know.
Now, will someone turn off the shower and turn on the Sunshine?
D out
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-28-2005, 10:37 AM Reply   
Duane,

California got all the rain this winter. Oregon is dry as a bone. Bad for snowboarding. Thursday through Sunday it was about 68 degrees without wind here in Portland. We took our new demo boat out for its maiden voyage on Friday. Water is still 48 degrees.

I hope to meet you in person this season. If you ever decide to focus on R&D and manufacturing and want someone to help with customer service, warehousing, order fulfillment, marketing, etc. let me know.

Mike
Old     (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-28-2005, 11:03 AM Reply   
Mike,
Sorry about the shortage of rain. Being originally from Oregon I know how important that is. Hopfully the summer and next fall won't be negatively impacted.
Thanks for the offer, once again. I was sorry to have missed you last June, and I was looking forward to meeting your brother in Pleasanton more recently. Not sure if Tom ended up showing up or not but nonetheless missed him.
D out
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-28-2005, 11:10 AM Reply   
Last June was crazy busy. Tom was not at Pleasanton this year. I believe that Paul Crawford, the national sales manager for Skylon was there.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-28-2005, 11:26 AM Reply   
wakeside - if i do have one complaint about the skylon defcon reference, it is the 2 ohm impedence.....

it is really hard to find clean 250-350 wpc amps that can do a "mono" 2 ohm load ( i am a zapco or j audio guy)

jl 300/2 ( 3-8 ohms) wont work, nor will the zapco 350 reference (4 ohm).

i would prefer to run 2 amps as mono blocks vs 1 large stereo.... but that is just me...

it would be nice to choose from 4 ohm or 2 ohm like other image dynamic speakers..

can a 4 ohm version be ordered ?????
Old     (auto)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-28-2005, 12:03 PM Reply   
duane i sent you an email with a phone number with some ?'s, any chance I can get with you and ask some ?'s offline.
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-28-2005, 12:49 PM Reply   
4 ohm version is not offered at this time.

Skylon and Image Dyamics choose 2 ohm impedence since most people will wire the tower speakers in stereo unless they will use a single Deafcon V Reference mounted in the center of the tower (model coming soon). At 2 ohms, a high end amp that can handle 2 ohms puts out double the output.

We are offering Tru Technology amplifiers at Wakeside that are the best amplifiers you can buy for the money (however they are high-end and expensive). They are winning most of the car stereo competitions lately. They are one of the last remaining companies building their amps in the USA. Huge oversized power supplies.

These are the Tru Technology models we are putting in our new demo boat:

Tru Technology T03-4.140 Amplifier
http://www.wakeside.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=W&Product_Code =tru_technology_t03_4_150
Tru Technology Hammer H-1 Amplifier
http://www.wakeside.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=W&Product_Code =tru_technology_h_1&Product_Count=&Category_Code=

These amps actually put out 60% more than they are rated at. We will use the Hammer with 2 Image Dynamics IDMax 12 inch dual voice coil subwoofers (4 ohms) which takes the imedence down to 1 ohm. This amp will put out well over 1,500 watts RMS at 1 ohm. We will use the T03-4.140 with the front two channels handling the 2 pair of marine grade Image Dynamics Chameleon components that include poly cones (CMS64 - a Wakeside exclusive) for the boat speakers and the rear channel will handle the Skylon Deafcon V Reference. Both sets of channels will be wired at 2 ohm so the amp will put out about 60% greater than the rated power of 250 watts RMS X 4. That will put us at nearly 400 watts RMS per channel at 2 ohm.

I believe that Skylon/Image Dynamics did us a favor by wiring at 2 ohms. I don't really see the advantage of mono if the amplifiers are high-end like Tru.


We will have most of the Tru Technology amplifiers up on our site by the end of this week - they are all in stock now. We are the only Authorized Internet Retailer for this line and that was only possible since we focus on high end boat systems.
Old     (hsmunoz)      Join Date: Nov 2004       02-28-2005, 3:16 PM Reply   
so dwane,

could you sell us an upgrade kit that replaces one speaker in each 1010 with a new Addiction version, that way we 1010'ers can get two horns and two mids, while keeping our mounting setups. then we have the ULITMATE!!!! skylon or no skylon..

thanks
henry
Old     (antbug)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-28-2005, 3:53 PM Reply   
Henry ~ why don't you keep your 1010's and add some Addictions. The 1010 will hit harder cause they have the same enclosures as the Addictions. The Addictions have the HLCD behind the driver so it has less air space hence the more mid bass in the 1010. Duane please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the sickest set up would be a single 1010 for the middle and pair of addictions one for each side. This would be 3 HLCD's and 4 10 inch drivers. You could even point the Addiction out 15 degrees so when the rider is cutting out he has full volume at any angle. It would look super sick too cause the addictions hand just a little lower.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-28-2005, 6:13 PM Reply   
Henry,

Don't give anything up, just mount some Addictions topside...

Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-28-2005, 7:48 PM Reply   
wakeside- thanks for the comeback...i dont think most audiophiles are going to pull the trigger on the tru amps....(btw, home system -classe cam 350 monos,audio physic libra speakers,bat vk 30 tube pre, marantz sacd player,sota vaccum turntable, cables -xlo ic, cardas speaker cable, and audience power cords.

dont get me wrong, i appreciate great gear( heck i am even running a eclipse 8053 deck in my boat and car) with zapco (balanced),and jl amps - not the highest end, but still decent gear...(for the $$$ mobile audio amps- i prefer tubes on the mids and highs(milbert, phaze, tube driver, us amps etc..) and i even run $$ interconnects, but i seriously doubt if anyone is going to hear the difference between a zapco and tru 80 feet out (if they do, they have much better ears than i do)

the huge advantage with 2 mono amps is increased channel seperation, dynamic headroom, due to the increased power supplys, and better imaging(dont think imaging will be noticed 80 feet out).

another advantatge of a 4 ohm load is really simple.. you can buy a couple of "decent" 4 ohm stereo amps and bridge it mono...like a couple zapco reference 350 or jl 300/2.

also, most a/b car amps can drop into a 2 ohm, 1 ohm, and even a .5 ohm load but not for long periods of time....they are too small and dont have the cooling surface and get too hot (too hot = less output)... try running it @ 1/3 power for 1 hour straight and hear what happens...just to put things into perspective....a krell, classe,levinson (80-100 lb refernce amps can)

$1800 amp's (note plural) may be bit overkill in a boat installation-this is a very hostile mobile setting (my opinion...take it with a grain of salt) i think good quality can be had for less..

(Message edited by clubmyke on February 28, 2005)
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-28-2005, 11:00 PM Reply   
Mike,

The Tru Technology Hammer amp can pump out well over 1,500 watts RMS into 1 ohm all day long and never over heat. You need to see the massive heat sinks. Also with a Tru amp, you don't need to run separate amps due to dynamic headroom since these amps have incredibly oversized power supplies. Most amps would see a severe voltage drop at the upper end due to undersized power supply, therefore effecting headroom. Never with a Tru amp.

You mentioned that you couldn't hear the difference at 80'. That may be so although the headroom and shear power reserve should make a difference at 80' too (SPL). In our boat, we aim for great sound in the boat when the engine is off. That is when a high quality amp can really make a difference.

Most people probably wouldn't buy the level of amp that we are using on my boat, but even the smaller Tru amps put out great sound. Consider this amp at under $600:

Tru Technology T-2.100 Amplifier
http://www.wakeside.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=W&Product_Code =tru_technology_2_100&Product_Count=&Category_Code =

This amp puts out 200 watts X 2 at 2 ohms or 400 watts X 1 at 4 ohms. Since Tru amps put out about 60% more than advertised, this amp can reach over 300 watts per channel in stereo. Channel separation is > 70 dB. We believe that this will be our most popular amp. This amp could drive a nice subwoofer too. The Hammer is for very serious bass. We need two Image Dynamics IDMAX 12" just to handle the power.

I don't think spending $3,000 on very high end amps is unreasonable for some people. Remember that a new boat costs $50 - $60K. The NVS or Deafcon Reference is $1,600 to $1,700. The subwoofers and boat speakers can cost up to $2,000 if you go high end. The head unit with all of the accessories is close to $500. Some pay $3,000 for custom installation for all of this. For someone that can afford it, $3K on amps is right in line.

We should have all of the models, images, specs, details, etc. up for the Tru amps by next week. We will also do a full photo article on our demo boat sound system and installation. We will measure SPL and frequency chart at 80'.

Keep an open mind about the Tru amps. Most people just are not aware of them yet and the difference that the amp can make. 98% of amps are now made in China. Tru is made in California.

Here is an interesting forum thread on the Hammer:
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=202&page=1&pp=10

Mike
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-01-2005, 12:13 AM Reply   
wakeside - can hear where you are coming from...to a certain point( the market at this price point is very, very, very small). however, where the speakers are priced at is expensive but fair and affordable.

i think a lot would depend on how much time you spend in your boat... if your boat is your "listening room" and you have the means-then it makes sense (i would think most people spend more time in their car, hence the popularity of car audio). but there are lots of differnt types of listening rooms, high end 2 channel, video system, car, and in this case, a boat.

looking at a boat install, here is rundown of a typical mid end install..

eclipse head unit $450
3 pr. image dynamic sep $975
1 pair image idq 12's $400
jl 450/4 $675
jl 500/1 $500
zapco 750 $650
wire $300
batteries (2 optima's) $300
skylon defcon V $1500
install & box $1000
isolator $200
caps $400

total $7350

btw, if the above mentioned arc hammer amp is not a class d/t amp then it must be heavily biased into class b.

i own a high end class a/b mono amps and each one puts outs out 350 into 8 ohms and double down into 1 ohm (it will trip the dedicated circut into a 2 ohm load if needed) and it sounds very effortless not matter how hard driven...

the only reason i bring this up it each one weighs 80 lbs (typical for a high end home amp that puts out 100-300 wpc).. so to see a a/b amp that is 1/15 the size and put out the same or more wattage/current (yeeah right -something has to give) would suggest borrowing a krell or a mark levinson and trying it on the skylons (for a reference point). btw, nothing goes into my car/boat system unless i try with the home system components.

i dont doubt tru's are great amps..(there are plenty- sinfoni, brax, mcintosh,milbert(my tube fave),arc, zapco, and jl (another solid state fave) it's just that they dont qualify for the "biggest bang for the buck award"

Old     (jaubrey)      Join Date: Feb 2003       03-01-2005, 5:45 AM Reply   
Wakeside,

Is there a certain amp that you can suggest besides the tru that wont compromise the speakers sound. I know this might be hard for you since you sell Tru but getting these new reference speakers is a stretch for me already if I can get these but cant get an efficient amp for cheaper then I mgiht as well not spend the money. thanks for your help.
Old    whitechocolate            03-01-2005, 9:25 AM Reply   
Hey Mike you will install all that stuff and build a box for $1,000 Hey Im bringing all my install work to you from now on, you better be good. I dont except cheep work and butt connectors or blapunct amps velcro mounted tothe carpet LOL , J/K Your prices seem correct, I know you were just trying to make a point and the $ amounts were not exact
Old    whitechocolate            03-01-2005, 9:26 AM Reply   
Hey Mike you will install all that stuff and build a box for $1,000 Hey Im bringing all my install work to you from now on, you better be good. I dont except cheep work and butt connectors or amps velcro mounted to the carpet LOL , J/K Your prices seem correct, I know you were just trying to make a point and the $ amounts were not exact
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-01-2005, 11:15 AM Reply   
Grant,

Which Mike are you talking too? Based on the Blau amp mention I am guessing me (mikeski) but you mentioned install & box = $1000 that is clubmyke?

We all have different objectives and budgets. My boat stays outside on a hoist so I prefer to use amps on the more inexpensive end of the spectrum since they are "venerable". I also like to use amps that do a good job of converting DC current to audiopower thus minimizing the taxation of our boat's power systems. There is so much equipment that is huge in footprint, huge in powerdraw, and huge in cost being used within this discussion group it's baffling.

In my new boat I intend to have a nice system powered off the stock single battery electrical system. I don't intend to win any contest with my installation either but things will work reliably and have a few butt connectors. I also plan to have music that I can hear when I ride. I do all my own work, I use some velcro, and I don't plan to have more then $3k into the system after all the dust settles.

Mikeski
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-01-2005, 11:54 AM Reply   
Jared,

NVS and others on this forum have recommended Zapco and JL. I'm sure that these amps will push the NVS or Skylon Reference Series just fine.

Besides Tru, I have heard very good reviews regarding Soundstream. Their amps are way less expensive than Tru. We will probably add a value line in at Wakeside too since not many will stretch for the competition level Tru unless they want the best. Tru is to amps, what Image Dynamics is to subwoofers.

Here is one I saw (under $300):

Soundstream VGA800.2
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14472

Mike
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       03-01-2005, 12:05 PM Reply   
I'm running my 1010s with an MA Audio 1200watt. Paid less than 250.00 for the amp and it has power to spare.
Old     (skibum69)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-01-2005, 12:15 PM Reply   
Diamond Audio also makes some great Marine amps(D3 series). I had a deck that the board corroded from moisture so I went with marine deck(high end rockford) and marine amps. They have a smaller footprint and have no problem pushing large 2 and 4 ohm loads
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-01-2005, 5:12 PM Reply   
i was pretty conserative with the pricing (street pricing)... typical install would go for $2k - $3k range..

soundstream amps....humm.. their old school stuff(class a is very good sounding amps..)

however, their reputation for repair is pretty bad..i dont know if that has changed over the years..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 01, 2005)
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-01-2005, 6:07 PM Reply   
I don't think I would call class a and b amps "old school". Yes, they were around before the newer class d, but that doesn't mean old school. Tube amps were around before solid state and they are the most desirable for those who know and they are out of most peoples price range. The Tru Technology amps are class a/b and they will out perform any class d amp on the market.

I have heard that class d amps are much cheaper to build. That is why they are the most popular since they are low cost to build and can therefore have a lower street price. Almost all class d amps are made in China today. You get what you pay for, not to say there are not good quality Chinese made class d amps. However, most of them have under sized power supplies and many have thermal issues. We had lots of issues with Kicker amps last year. We blew out many power supplies and we got tired of warranty them. I've heard that Diamond M3 amps are better than Kicker but I can't really comment. What I'm saying is that the most popular isn't always the best. In the case of amps, I'll take old school, class a/b, made in USA any day.

As for Soundstream having repair or warranty issues, I can't comment since we don't offer them. Maybe others on this thread have some experience with how they stand behind their products. We would not offer them until we do extensive due diligence on their quality and customer service.

We plan on offering a line of high quality price-point (value) amps for those not in the Tru Technology price range of $599 to $1,735 (Tru makes amps that are over $5,000 but we don't offer them). They may even be class d and made in China but they must perform well and hold up.

Mike
Old     (jansen)      Join Date: Sep 2004       03-01-2005, 6:15 PM Reply   
THIS IS OFF OF CRUTCHFIELD.COM

Each amplifier "class" has different performance characteristics, determined by its internal circuitry:

Class A amplifiers are desirable for the high quality of their sound, but, because of the configuration of its transistors, a pure class A amplifier is inefficient and runs very hot.

By far the most common car amp design, Class AB amps run cooler, and therefore, more efficiently than a class A, with low distortion and high reliability.

Class D amps (usually used to power subwoofers) boast higher efficiency, produce less heat, and draw less current than Class AB amps. Class D amps produce higher distortion, but this distortion occurs at high frequencies that are typically removed by a low-pass filter and is therefore inaudible.

Class BD amps give you the super-efficient design of a Class D amp with the clarity and sound quality of a Class B amp.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-01-2005, 6:22 PM Reply   
old school is in reference to early gear that was built extremely well, sounded great, and reliable.

sorry about the misunderstanding... i am referencing to soundstreams first couple series of amps in the 80's/90's..(when they were made vs. circut topolgy). i paid the soundstream class a amps a compliment in the earlier thread..

not to much is new in circut topology except for class d(subs) and class t(mids highs).. class d for subs is pretty well established, class t is still a unkown.

for all mid to high end amps, the parts tolerences are much better..

when it comes to mids/tweet amps in car audio- class a/b topology is still the way to go.

for sub amps i have to give the nod to class d for efficency, output, and design..

it is too bad about kicker amps.. their first two sereies were very, very good ( 1st series was a a/d/s amp with kicker badge, and their second series (zr) was very, very good (very underated and very reliable- their best amps imo)

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 01, 2005)
Old    blue_malibu            03-01-2005, 6:44 PM Reply   
where can i get a pair of the NVS?
Old    wallystyle            03-01-2005, 7:13 PM Reply   
Hey, go to http://nvs1.net/. I'm gonna get a pair as well. I'm so stoked. Just waitin' a little longer before I pull the trigger. Good luck!
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-01-2005, 10:20 PM Reply   
Chris and Mike,

Class D may be the most common amp for subwoofers, but it isn't always the most efficient. This is a quote from John Yi, the head engineer/designer at Tru Technology:

"Actually, power for power, the H-1 (Hammer) is as efficient as any Class D.

If you had the chance to measure a Class D at full power, it is below 50%

What people tend to get turned around is the fact that the Class D is efficient at 4 Ohm, but who runs a Class D at 4 Ohm?

In any case, H-1 (Hammer) was originally designed to be a "Commercial" Grade Amp. Meaning, the SQ of the H-1 is like comparing Super-unleaded vs. Diesel.

Class D works quite well in our industry because of the cost factor being less. That's all. No Class D has been designed from my current info that they were designed for any type of SQ application.

H-1 (Hammer) has +/- 85Volts on the Rails compare to 34Volts of Class D. H-1 will hit and recover 10 times faster than a Class D (towards a speaker).

Plus, the heatsink on the Hammer was designed to compliment 1500watts of all day usage. In comparison to Class D, I doubt you'll be able to play more than 30 minutes at 1 Ohm till it shuts down.

Also the H-1 will retain it's maximum RMS power +/- 10 watts until shutdown. If it shuts down."
__________________
John Yi
http://www.trutechnology.com
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-01-2005, 10:57 PM Reply   
uhmm... that is news to me...what defination are you using for efficency ?

i have a really hard time believing a class a/ab amp can run as hard into a sub woofer operating below 150hz-250hz compared to a class d into a 2 ohm load... most class class a/b amps will only average 5%-15% into class a at the most( that means a 100 wpc amp will be biased 10-25 watts into class a and the rest class b.. and this is really good stuff ..krell...plinius...tenor..etc).
there are very, very few high powered class a amps out there...why ??? they run very, very hot and break down (the heat virtually wears out the amp..it is really rare to see class amp exceed 50-100 watts into 8 ohms...most of them are 25 wpc..)

as far as recovery, i would consider that dampening factor and completly design dependant..

in regards to sq class d- there are plenty high end home theatre sub amps and 2 channel sub amps out there...it is the only way to squeeze 1000 watts...

the reason class d has been so successful is the ability to produce incredible amount of power with much less current draw(btw, this is how i would define efficency), less heat(heat is the killing factor in any amp, the more heat there is, the less the output), reasonable size, and reliability, and cost..

class d amps may not measure the best on the bench, but in real world applications they do very, very well.... try to swing a 1000 watts real sub load with a class a/b amp and watch what happens..one has to approach bench results with a grain of salt..

in fact, i know A LOT of ultra high end products including tube prouducts that measure very poorly (cary, vtl,conrad jonhson, air tight) but sound better than any solid state design because of even order harmonics vs odd order....

measurements dont mean a thing if aint got the swing...

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 01, 2005)
Old     (wakeside1)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-01-2005, 11:31 PM Reply   
Like I said, the Tru Technology H-1 Hammer is a class A/B amp that puts out well over 1,500 watts RMS into 1 ohm all day long without over heating or shutting down. The Tru runs over 50% efficiency - as good as any class D.

Keep in mind that John Yi, the head engineer and designer of the Tru Technology was the top designer at Cerwin Vega since the early 90's. CV built amps that were well over 10,000 watts for indoor and outdoor concerts.

That is why Tru is winning many of the major competitions right now.

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