Articles
   
       
Pics/Video
       
Wake 101
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WakeWorld Home
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 11:09 AM Reply   
Hi WW.

After owning a new “Value Brand Wakeboat” with every quality issue imaginable, I’m looking for the old bulletproof options in a 22-23’ Hull size. Seems people love their older SAN 210/230’s, LSV/VLX’s and Mastercraft’s of every variations. So which one wins the test of time? Producing hours of trouble free wakes and waves?
Old     (Stazi)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-11-2019, 12:27 PM Reply   
Which boat was this lemon you are talking about?
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       03-11-2019, 12:49 PM Reply   
curious as well. I'm guessing there are a lot of reliable boats out there. I'm heading into my 10th season with my 24' 2009 Supra and, knock on wood, I've not had an issue since year 1. I had one early on but the factory took care of that. No issues since. I'm certain there are many boat brands with a good reliability record. Every brand also has its lemons.

Last edited by tre; 03-11-2019 at 12:51 PM.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 1:03 PM Reply   
Not sure what a “lemon” is in the boating world. But it was a Tige. All issues repaired after 1 1/2 years. Just didn’t feel the boat ever surfed, skied or wake boarded well. I’m not a huge fan of the Raptor, Tige touch screen or surf system. Lots of dialing in and inconsistency. I know some guys love their Tige’s. Tried trading it in, dealers trade-in offers were 30% less than I paid 18 months prior. Dealers said the Tige’s are a lot more difficult to sell used. Finally sold it, had to damn near give it away.
Old     (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       03-11-2019, 1:42 PM Reply   
Most reliable will be the one with the least electronics and the best maintained one.
Bought my '85 Nautique 2001 with 1500 hours, sold it with 3000 and still runs well. Only had to change a transmission plate once, besides regular maintenance.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 1:45 PM Reply   
How’s your Supra Surf and Wakeboard? Good on both Starboard and port?
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 1:47 PM Reply   
I honestly believe the older boats were built better. Too much value engineering and Corporate BS today.
Old     (dougr)      Join Date: Dec 2009       03-11-2019, 2:02 PM Reply   
I have had 2 vlx 02 , 05 the 05 blew a motor in first week, but then was perfect. Then 09, sv230, sv244 in 12 and now a FS44 15, never anything major, just a few electric bugs on a touch pad on fs44, and a glove box broke. I have been very happy with my centurions, i am actually content with my fs44 and keeping it. usually i get excited over new boats, but at the state of the boat market, pricing and real value. you can get a killer deal on a 13,14,15 model boat.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 2:42 PM Reply   
Thanks for the info dougr.

I was considering a Natique factory tour over spring break. Just can’t justify the $105,000 price tag for a new 230. Taking a huge loan out just seems silly. I’ve heard the fs44 surfs awesome! I’ve heard good things about the PCM motor.
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       03-11-2019, 3:46 PM Reply   
There are a lot of good boats. My opinion is you can get more bang for your buck in the used market by looking at brands like MB, Supra, Centurion, Supreme. If surfing is your primary, I would skip the Malibu & go right to something with a deep V hull. The rough water ride is better, the wave is better, won't dunk the bow. Newer Malibus are better in this regard but the older ones sit pretty low.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 4:38 PM Reply   
So I have lake tested the following:

2018 Nautique 210 PCM ZR4
2018 Nautique 230 PCM ZR4
2017 LSV 23 with Raptor 410
2014 LSV 23 with Monsoon 409
2019 A22 with Power Wedge PCM 409

Funny thing is I liked the 2019 A22 ($90,000) and 2014 LSV 23 ($70,000) the best. Now Im thinking Maybe I should lake test older boats.

2009 X-Star
2013 X30
2010 SAN 230
2011 LSV 23
2015 A22
2015 T22

Heck maybe a $50,000 boat is the ticket.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-11-2019, 4:56 PM Reply   
wombat2wombat.

I had a difficult time trading or selling the Tige. All the lakes around me are filled with Malibu/Axis 40%, Mastercraft's 40%, 10% Nautique's and Supra/Moomba's 5% and 5% everything else. I am concerned out resale. I have never surfed or lake tested a Deep V wake boat yet. The Malibu/Axis boats produce awesome waves and wakes (IMO). Maybe Im missing out! Really want a boat that is easy to dial in.
Old     (cbarguy1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       03-13-2019, 11:38 AM Reply   
You're on the right track IMO. The most important trait in a boat is reliability. If it works, you're going to have fun, if it doesn't you won't and neither will your friends/family. I've owned 3 boats, 1 new, 2 used. The used ones (CC and MC) were less hassle than the new (MC) one. Seems like all new boats have bugs that need to be worked out. Mine were small but still involved trips to the dealer and downtime. Between the savings and less issues I will always buy used but only high quality brand with low hours and good history.

As for which brand CC, MC, Malibu are my top 3 in that order but I hear good things about newer Centurion and Supra boats. My current boat (2008 xstar) has been trouble free. Surf wave when setup right is short and tall with lots of push but not up to modern standards. But we love it and don't plan to change anytime soon. Its also holding its value pretty well for an older boat. Guess there's still some die hard wakeboarders left in the world, dunno.

Good luck!
Old     (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       03-13-2019, 2:20 PM Reply   
The years you ask about bring to mind 3 significant changes over the years

1. 2006 brought us drive by wire on engine management which made the old perfect pass very very usable. I'm a Supra/Moomba fan and they did not adopt full until 2007. If I were to buy an old boat, it has to be 2007 or newer. Later models went GPS but drive by wire was one of the biggest improvement to speed control.

2. The Cat became available also in 2007. Upgrade option for many years, but there is a Major difference in fuel economy. There will be some discussion here on reliability, but it will all involve if the boat has been around people who know how to update a few service bulletins.

3. Im gonna go all in and disclose my bias. I would by a newer 2018 Moomba with AutoWake over a older premium brand for same money to get Autowake,
Old     (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SF Bay Area       03-13-2019, 3:16 PM Reply   
You want a reliable boat? Get one with a PCM engine.
Old     (gdmatson)      Join Date: Jan 2018       03-13-2019, 3:18 PM Reply   
I was a loyal Malibu guy for 20 years. My 15 LSV was the most unreliable boat I’ve ever owned. So much so, I left the brand entirely and have zero interest in going back. Just my 2 cents
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       03-13-2019, 4:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotless View Post
3. Im gonna go all in and disclose my bias. I would by a newer 2018 Moomba with AutoWake over a older premium brand for same money to get Autowake,

I hear ya. We did same, spent within $6-8k of the usual 5-8 year old recommendations and got full warranty, ordered exactly what we wanted, etc.

But I’m a value fan without much brand loyalty. Case in point, my daily is a Genesis G80 (Hyundai’s new luxury brand).
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-13-2019, 5:42 PM Reply   
cbarguy1.

Thanks for the info. I hear the X-Star is a wake boarding machine. If I wakeboarded behind it, we could call it the death star or face plant machine!
Honestly, none of the wakeboats check all my boxes. Why pay $100,000+ for one?
I agree 100% on your ranking of brand quality. Learned my lesson, no more "Value Brands".
MC and CC interior and Gel always looks great, even after 10 years.
The X30 and X10. 2013 w/Gen2 look awesome, heck maybe older with GSA or suck gate?
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-13-2019, 5:54 PM Reply   
Spotless.

Thanks! I agree with the Drive by Wire, GPS speed control and Cats. I wish Moomba would of been my 1st purchase, wife now forbids any Tige, Moomba, MB, or any other "Value Brand". I understand a Supra and Moomba are basically the same boat. She convinced it will be the same thing all over again. Lots of wrecked weekends. A boat out of warranty could of easily been taken to the local marine near my cabin, for repairs.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-13-2019, 6:03 PM Reply   
migs.

PCM's are awesome. Quiet, smooth and lots of punch. I think Indmar finally has the Raptor O2 issues and CAT issues figured out. (something to do with allingment and water getting in.) Nothing like driving around a lake with O2 alarms going off or having to cycle the battery power every 15 minutes.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-13-2019, 6:19 PM Reply   
gdmatson.

Funny, I use to be a Chevy-guy 20 years, Now a Ford-guy. At least with cars you have the lemon law to fall back on. Boat dealers and manufactures can jerk you around and work on an issue indefinitely.

Im impressed with Mailbu's wakes, waves, looks and sporty handling. Many people have complained about the medallion screens failing, gelcoat issues, vinyl issue and power wedge getting stuck. Im guessing your list is that plus some.
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       03-14-2019, 6:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
Spotless.

Thanks! I agree with the Drive by Wire, GPS speed control and Cats. I wish Moomba would of been my 1st purchase, wife now forbids any Tige, Moomba, MB, or any other "Value Brand". I understand a Supra and Moomba are basically the same boat. She convinced it will be the same thing all over again. Lots of wrecked weekends. A boat out of warranty could of easily been taken to the local marine near my cabin, for repairs.
My experience all the new boats are where the problems are till all the warranty work gets the kinks out. My current boat was warranty nightmare for the previous owner & it's been nothing but solid for us.
Old     (cbarguy1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       03-14-2019, 7:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbarguy1 View Post
You're on the right track IMO. The most important trait in a boat is reliability. If it works, you're going to have fun, if it doesn't you won't and neither will your friends/family. I've owned 3 boats, 1 new, 2 used. The used ones (CC and MC) were less hassle than the new (MC) one. Seems like all new boats have bugs that need to be worked out. Mine were small but still involved trips to the dealer and downtime. Between the savings and less issues I will always buy used but only high quality brand with low hours and good history.

As for which brand CC, MC, Malibu are my top 3 in that order but I hear good things about newer Centurion and Supra boats. My current boat (2008 xstar) has been trouble free. Surf wave when setup right is short and tall with lots of push but not up to modern standards. But we love it and don't plan to change anytime soon. Its also holding its value pretty well for an older boat. Guess there's still some die hard wakeboarders left in the world, dunno.

Good luck!
"Death Star" that's a good one. I think I'll use that.

And yes I use a suck gate (nauticurl) and it's great. I think having a good ballast setup is more important. The suckgate is 30 seconds to install or swap. I'm not going to pay thousands of dollars to replace that.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 10:00 AM Reply   
I agree with new boats having issues. Lots of folks with $$$ upgrade every year. Seems painful!
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 10:16 AM Reply   
Is it hard to get the nauticurl installed in the same spot everytime? See lots of boats using them.
A shaper that stays attached and manually pulls out, might be the way to go.
Im really surprised no one is manufacturing aftermarket surfgate systems and power wedge systems.
Ive seen the GSA system ($4000) and now Infinity Wave Manufacturing, make a system 1/2 the price of GSA.
$4000 is a lot for some metal, two actuators, two switches and a GPS antenna.....almost forgot the $35 controller with overcurrent protection.
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       03-14-2019, 11:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
Is it hard to get the nauticurl installed in the same spot everytime? See lots of boats using them.
A shaper that stays attached and manually pulls out, might be the way to go.
Im really surprised no one is manufacturing aftermarket surfgate systems and power wedge systems.
Ive seen the GSA system ($4000) and now Infinity Wave Manufacturing, make a system 1/2 the price of GSA.
$4000 is a lot for some metal, two actuators, two switches and a GPS antenna.....almost forgot the $35 controller with overcurrent protection.
I personally found the Swell suck gate better than the Nauticurl, could be my hull but it works better. I have GSA & I love the system. Worth 4k? I don't know but it produces an amazing wave with tons of push. I have to check out the infinity wave, never heard of that one before. I can't help but think some of GSA's costs may be paying Malibu royalties since Malibu won that suit against Mastercraft & they're paying Malibu. I have no info on that & it is purely speculation on my part.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       03-14-2019, 1:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wombat2wombat View Post
I personally found the Swell suck gate better than the Nauticurl, could be my hull but it works better. I have GSA & I love the system. Worth 4k? I don't know but it produces an amazing wave with tons of push. I have to check out the infinity wave, never heard of that one before. I can't help but think some of GSA's costs may be paying Malibu royalties since Malibu won that suit against Mastercraft & they're paying Malibu. I have no info on that & it is purely speculation on my part.


GSA has managed to sidestep Malibu. No royalties being exchanged.
Old     (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       03-14-2019, 1:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
I agree with new boats having issues. Lots of folks with $$$ upgrade every year. Seems painful!
I have seen others painful but I must be the most blessed man in the world. I've bought 11 new boats and had awesome relationship with dealer who made everything right and at the right time. Also had one of my best friends as mechanic at my dealer. Dealer makes all the difference in the world. There were some issues, I know came right out of the dealers pocket, knowing the dealer would not get reimbursed. Anyone pulling trigger on new one today, better have a good dealer.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 4:01 PM Reply   
wombat2wombat.

What year and model boat do you have the GSA installed on? Ive watched the video's its hard to tell the ability of the system without seeing it and surfing it.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 4:06 PM Reply   
dakota4ce

Ive noticed surf gate is the only automated system, that hasn't been duplicated. Maybe thats why? It also appears to produce the most consistent wave (IMO) with all the side effects of the wedge of course.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 4:15 PM Reply   
Spotless.

To be honest, I didn't read the Facebook reviews for my dealer or manufacture before buying. Really didn't know anything about wake boats either. Live and Learn!
That said it has created something my whole family loves.
I agree the dealer is definitely 1/2 the battle. Manufactures definitely need to work on quality, for the price they charge (IMO).

Can I ask what 11 boats you have owned and which ones surfed really well?
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-14-2019, 4:19 PM Reply   
something fuel injected with minimal ECU input and no fancy screens in the dash. known hull that throws the wake/wave you like. figure out how many bells and whistles you want and start shopping. used market has a ton of great boats that hold value. That's essentially what I did several years ago.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       03-14-2019, 6:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
dakota4ce

Ive noticed surf gate is the only automated system, that hasn't been duplicated. Maybe thats why? It also appears to produce the most consistent wave (IMO) with all the side effects of the wedge of course.


There is something about the side deploying tech that is protected. I am not sure how GSA has escaped the legal wrath of Malibu, but they have. There is a lot to those GSA plates that makes the unique.

I will say they’re easy to use and setup, but they IMHO do not make the beefiest wave.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 7:28 PM Reply   
Denverd1.

I think lake testing several boat is the best option. Just trying to narrow it down a bit. What did you end up getting?
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-14-2019, 7:43 PM Reply   
Dakota4ce.

That’s what I’ve notice too. The only boat on GSA’s website that throws a beefy looking wave, is an older LSV 23. I’m guessing it has the power wedge, but still not as good as surf gate. Best surf wave I’ve ridden so far have been the LSV 23. Nothing else is even close. The next best was the G23, but if you got too close to the swim platform it would toss you. To be fair, I have zero experience with Moomba, Supra, Centurion or Mastercraft (other than competition slalom boats)
Old     (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       03-14-2019, 7:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotless View Post
I have seen others painful but I must be the most blessed man in the world. I've bought 11 new boats and had awesome relationship with dealer who made everything right and at the right time. Also had one of my best friends as mechanic at my dealer. Dealer makes all the difference in the world. There were some issues, I know came right out of the dealers pocket, knowing the dealer would not get reimbursed. Anyone pulling trigger on new one today, better have a good dealer.
Most likely because they are when it's all said and done, trim tabs. Trim tabs have been around forever.
Old     (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       03-14-2019, 7:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
Dakota4ce.

That’s what I’ve notice too. The only boat on GSA’s website that throws a beefy looking wave, is an older LSV 23. I’m guessing it has the power wedge, but still not as good as surf gate. Best surf wave I’ve ridden so far have been the LSV 23. Nothing else is even close. The next best was the G23, but if you got too close to the swim platform it would toss you. To be fair, I have zero experience with Moomba, Supra, Centurion or Mastercraft (other than competition slalom boats)
We have experimented with gates and tabs on the same LSV23. If the tabs are properly designed, i.e. have ways to control the water flow, they provide more push than gates or tabs that do not control the water. Also a tabs will run at a significantly decreased RPM allowing the use of more weight thereby displacing more water.

I like the LSV23 with gate surf wave a lot. However, you should probably ride any Centurion Ri/Fi boat or a Supra SL, SA, SG, etc.... All make a better wave than the LSV23.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       03-14-2019, 8:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
Dakota4ce.

That’s what I’ve notice too. The only boat on GSA’s website that throws a beefy looking wave, is an older LSV 23. I’m guessing it has the power wedge, but still not as good as surf gate. Best surf wave I’ve ridden so far have been the LSV 23. Nothing else is even close. The next best was the G23, but if you got too close to the swim platform it would toss you. To be fair, I have zero experience with Moomba, Supra, Centurion or Mastercraft (other than competition slalom boats)


I communicated poorly. Sorry! My opinion is that surfgate is the easiest to use and setup, but does NOT throw the beefiest wave.

I ride a 2017 23 LSV on the regular. Our posse also has Supra SL, Moomba Makai, Tige RZX.
The 23LSV is good but last or second to last in that lineup. It also needs a 750 bow sack on the seats to join the fight.

Still good. Tons of fun for sure.

GSA is legit done right.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-15-2019, 5:20 AM Reply   
Dakota4ce.

Sorry for the confusion, I misunderstood. I think replacing the LSV 23 with a M235 would be a more realistic comparison based off freeboard. I believe the LSV 23 is more of a crossover. I’m really trying to avoid the bathtub or school bus effect you see in these super deep and 24’ plus boats. We are not at pro level, so it’s just wasted $$$ and fuel for me. Plus I think the LSV 23, X30 and SAN 230 handle and look nicer. You can even ski behind them recreationally. What would be the equivalent in a Supra? I know it would be a Z3 in Tige, but obviously not going down that road again.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-15-2019, 5:26 AM Reply   
Shakarocks.

Thanks for the recommendations. Lots of love for the Supra’s and Centurions. What’s the LSV 23 comparable in these brands? Any years to target or avoid? I know everyone says to avoid Gen1 or any 2012 Mastercraft.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-15-2019, 10:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
Denverd1.

I think lake testing several boat is the best option. Just trying to narrow it down a bit. What did you end up getting?
Sanger V230. Ethanol ate my fuel pumps, but other than that just basic maintenance. I will say the Merc engine is a bit of a turnoff as they have their own code reader and diagnostic equipment. but local dealer is good about reading it for a few bucks when I have an issue, so that issue is covered.
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       03-15-2019, 1:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfsupdude View Post
Shakarocks.

Thanks for the recommendations. Lots of love for the Supra’s and Centurions. What’s the LSV 23 comparable in these brands? Any years to target or avoid? I know everyone says to avoid Gen1 or any 2012 Mastercraft.
Head over to Malibucrew, can't remember who, but a couple of people put GSA on their LSV's & love it.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-15-2019, 4:56 PM Reply   
denverd1.

Happy to hear you've had good luck with your Sanger. I think the Indmar used Diacom, if I remember correctly. Boat screen flashed a code you could google and figure out a general area to start. Ive heard Illmors are the most proprietary of the bunch.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       03-15-2019, 4:58 PM Reply   
wombat2wombat.

Thanks for the tip. Lots of info on bucrew!

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:19 AM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2019 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us