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Old     (duckboat)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-11-2009, 5:43 AM Reply   
Probably been said but merc has to get dialed into the new standards of the law is what I'm hearing through the grape vine. Major changes never seem to go smooth.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-11-2009, 6:51 AM Reply   
Rich, that was the other I was considering a Malibu.
Old     (tj_in_kc)      Join Date: Jan 2008       08-11-2009, 9:16 AM Reply   
I have a Malibu and as said I did have a minor issue (blower went out at 20hrs). So yes all the mfgs have some issues.

My suggestion for going with the big 3 is because if you had engine trouble with a Malibu, you'd be dealing with Indmar. In my opinion they are very dialed in to their engines and very responsive to customers, especially Malibu customers as its a major source of their business.

Same can be said for the other 2 of the big 3, except PCM is the powertrain people.

I'm guessing Sanger doesn't pull much weight with Mercruiser. With their number, Sanger is small potatoes to a huge mfg like Mercruiser. They are probably more concerned with helping a Bayliner customer.... (bayliner probably ships millions of dollars of mercruiser engines a year).

So PCM or Indmar are focused on the inboard market, others aren't is all i'm saying...

(Message edited by tj_in_kc on August 11, 2009)
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-11-2009, 3:46 PM Reply   
Even though I thought I did my research, after this I think I did not, or didnt ask enough questions.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-11-2009, 3:50 PM Reply   
When do you get the boat back?
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-11-2009, 3:52 PM Reply   
I have not been told....I have called but either no return call or they dont know.
Old     (antoddio)      Join Date: Dec 2006       08-11-2009, 4:23 PM Reply   
Exactly what question do you think you could have asked?
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-11-2009, 4:52 PM Reply   
Well there could have been many questions to ask, that I know know about the boat industry.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-11-2009, 8:56 PM Reply   
Well as of now they are still trying t troubleshoot the problem with no progress. Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon I get some positive news.
Old     (dohboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-11-2009, 9:05 PM Reply   
I thought they found the problem. This is getting crazy. They could have built you a new one by now. FIX IT ALREADY!
Old     (chall8143)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-12-2009, 5:19 AM Reply   
I am really shocked that they have not offered you a new boat at this point. I feel for you.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-12-2009, 7:01 AM Reply   
Its hard to be patient, when on day 20 still no boat. I'm hoping something positive happens today, and we move forward because right now it is not.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-12-2009, 6:58 PM Reply   
Well the boat is going back to its birth place. In fact it is already there.
Old     (chall8143)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-12-2009, 8:03 PM Reply   
So what is the latest? It's back to the factory? What are they going to do at this point?
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-12-2009, 8:07 PM Reply   
Yea it is there, Mike called me and said they are going to replace the engine and everything the package comes with. Said back by friday
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-12-2009, 8:20 PM Reply   
Apart from the down time that is a pretty good outcome. Brand new motor and they will give it a tickle up to showroom condition.
Old     (dohboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-12-2009, 9:11 PM Reply   
This friday? Thats pretty quick if they just took it there. Hey, your getting closer to your summer boating.
Old     (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       08-12-2009, 9:40 PM Reply   
Dude I know how you feel, my boat has broken down and been towed (twice) rowed and even swum in more times than I care to mention. Just about everything has been replaced at one time or another, no dealer support either, and no one coming out to tow me in, so you might count yourself lucky in that regard. Once you get it back running and have a few good hours on it your worries will disappear. Sucks to worry about things like this but you are getting taken care of so that is encouraging. Sure it shouldn't have happened in the first place but it sounds like your broken Sanger will be back and good as new in no time.

(Message edited by jtnz on August 12, 2009)
Old     (nu2dagam)      Join Date: May 2004       08-13-2009, 5:45 AM Reply   
Man, this is rediculous. Some of the people on here talking about "this happens" and "you are getting great customer service". That is useless and uncalled for. The man is not whining, he spent his hard earned money in the same recession everyone else is in. If Sanger or anyone else can use the recession as an excuse, then so can Jason. I would not want that boat back and would want my money back, end of story. And the comment on "a writer for as the world turns". That is his son, I dont know if you have kids or not, but I have two, and I would not be teaching them to exercise their "patience" and show them "this is how you run a business" with this example. Patience is a week at the most and I would expect to be compensated. If my car breaks down and is under warranty, I get another one to drive while it is fixed. You dont drop 40K on something and it not work and leave you stranded. If I bought a $1000 TV and the thing didnt work, it would be going back to the store and I would be getting a new one. This boat is no different, the man bought a product that is advertised as a boat. He has not had a boat yet. End of story. Make them take it back or let them repo it and take them to court. You seem to be the only one being nice in all this. Scott coming on here and justifying that the boat is not dirty and does not look like blah blah blah, who cares. You should have towed that boat on Saturday. You sold a defective product, you didnt do the man a favor, he did you one by buying your product. There is no comfort in, "he should have many more years of good times". What about the times he has lost. Jason, I feel for you, I really really do. It is not a soap opera to see the look of disappointment on your sons face. You have done your part, you signed the papers and made the commitment to the boat, Sanger, Mercruiser, I dont care who, but someone should get this guy on the water this weekend without anymore loss time.
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 7:50 AM Reply   
Jonathan, your reasoning is flat out scary. The boating industry is absolutely nothing like the car industry. Under your mentality boat manufactures or dealers are going to have to double the price of their boats. The collaboration of R&D required for every part that goes into a boat would call for it. 95% of (Insert Manufacturer here) have some sort of issue at some point during the life of their warranty. Should a boat be replaced for each warranty occurrence? When I ran a boat dealership, we offered a "loaner" boat for people that had "catastrophic" warranty events that prevented them from using their boats. That was when business was OK or good. Under today's pressures and restraints in the industry, it is almost impossible. It is my impression that Jason bought the boat at an incredible deal and that there was little dealer involvement in the purchase? Sounds like Sanger and Mercruiser are doing everything they can to alleviate the situation. There are some manufactures and dealers that don't do this at all! Can I assume you have never owned a boat? If not I have nice '09 MB that I can sell you for $120,000. There is a 2% chance that you will have a catastrophic warranty problem, but I will replace the whole boat free of charge. For anyone else, I will sell it for $60,000, but there is a 2% chance that something could possibly go wrong under warranty and you may loose a week or two on the water during the 10-15 years you own the boat.


(Message edited by alans on August 13, 2009)
Old     (jmanolinsky)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-13-2009, 9:03 AM Reply   
To play devil's advocate with you, Alan, I have a brand new boat that I'll sell you at a really great price. You probably won't get to use it this season because it will be in the shop most of the time. You'll still have to make payments on it and pay a monthly fee to store it even though it is not ever there. Oh yeah, and insurance too. Don't worry though, maybe next season will be better.


When Jason does get his boat back, how long will it be before he is unafraid to venture far from the ramp where he launched? I once had a boat like that and it sucks being afraid to go anywhere. That is one the big reasons for buying new, peace of mind. I wonder how much Jason has?
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 9:19 AM Reply   
I understand that point of view. And during the time I was a dealer, I never had a person have a "catastrophic" issue that lasted longer than 24 hrs. Fuel pump, Throttle sensor, etc. Jason got really unlucky with a bigger problem, but he is getting the support and repair that the warranty promises.

If you pay $500,000 to build a new house and the HVAC system takes a dump, does the builder give you a new house that he is building for someone else or does he fix the problem? Building a boat is a lot more like being a contractor than a car manufacturer.

If he had bought an older used boat, he would be paying for 1000's labor and parts, so that doesn't hold any water.
Old     (radikal)      Join Date: Feb 2004       08-13-2009, 9:24 AM Reply   
Hope you will have your boat really soon.

Honestly if it happen to me ill throw that boat by the showroom window or ASK for a new one or send some legal procedures, now it seem to be fix but how can you wait without your boat 1 month during the summer.

Really great services :

1st - Never offer demo boat the enjoy your summer
2nd - Operator problem OMG, did they appologise for that when the boat died in their face ???

But feel lucky they will give you a 10% off on your 20 hours service.

Anyway this kind of things yes put me a little bit on my high heels, because a lot of people here dont realised that we spend a lot of money on those toys and we have to expect the maximum of them and the service that come with them.

Do you think he will ever buy another Sanger after what he pass thru ? Now i doubt but, if they were giving him a demo boat to pass the time, maybe i said maybe....

Anyway sorry for all that frustration, its not even my boat just imagine if it was mine, ill chill out now.

Ok im good now. Are yah doing ?

(Message edited by radikal on August 13, 2009)
Old     (flyinhi421)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-13-2009, 9:31 AM Reply   
You can still live in a house w/o HVAC. His boat has been sitting at the dealer for 3 weeks! They should be replacing his boat or at least giving him a demo. I had an issue w my malibu a few years back, after 4 day the dealer came and dropped a demo off, parked it in my lift, put the trailer in my driveway, and then called me to tell me they did it. I didn't have to ask or argue, they just did it.
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-13-2009, 9:31 AM Reply   
In my opinion, Alan's reasoning is quite flawed and is "flat out scary." No one would be calling for a new boat if it was a year old. This thing was flawed, right out of the box. He's not talking about missing time over 10-15 years, it looks like he missed time in the first month. The thing is a lemon, and any manufacturer in any industry will have them over time. While it's impossible to avoid ever sending out a lemon, it doesn't mean the consumer unlucky enough to get the lemon should bear the burden.
Old     (jmanolinsky)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-13-2009, 9:39 AM Reply   
I think it is much more appropriate to compare a boat with an automobile than a home. Boats and cars are both vehicles. Everyone justifies the failure rates of new boats and I don't get it. Automobile manufacurers don't make every part that goes into their cars and there are many more parts to them. If a part fails under warranty, the auto dealer doesn't say, "Oh, well we didn't manufacture that part, we just bolted it on to the car". The equipment that each boat manufacturer chooses to use is entirely up to them. They should demand equipment that has been deemed reliable because it is their name on the line.


If he had bought an older used boat, he would have money left over to get it fixed. See, that's the whole point though, that's why he bought a new boat. He wanted to use and enjoy it. Now.
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 9:41 AM Reply   
He had 8 hrs on the boat when he had the first problem. Plus he had an aftermarket stereo system installed and is having electrical issues. Where do you draw the line? I have had customers come back after 1 year of ownership with less than 15 hrs on the boat. Who pays for the new boat for him? I think a lot of people have the wrong perspective here. Does Jason deserve a new boat? I think so. Should he have had a demo to use during this past month? Absolutely. Is Sanger required to do these things under the Sales agreement? NO! Are they doing the right thing and furnishing him with a brand new engine? YES!
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 9:46 AM Reply   
Sounds like you guys should get into the boat manufacturing business. With your concept of how boats should be built, you would be #1 in no time. I wonder why MC, CC, Malibu, MB, CAL, Sanger, Centurion, Epic, Gekko, Supreme, PCM, Mercuiser, Indmar, and flipping Hinkley! can't figure it out. Go show them how to do it, hahaha.
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 9:56 AM Reply   
Alan, All issues you referred to are simple problems that can be fixed in hours.. including a HVAC issue on the house. In Jasons case here Sanger nor Mercruiser after 20 days have a clue as to why his boat doesn't run.. They blamed the stereo installer, and then they "found the problem" in the wiring harness which they replaced and at that point the boat wouldn't even start. Jason is a really good friend of mine and we both share allot of the same patience qualities. I'm honestly flabbergasted at the fact that he would even take that boat back or that he doesnt have a demo sitting in a storage unit right now.

Me and Jason both bought our Sangers around the same time.. We talked about it for years and he did most of the research at the end of the day for me it boiled down between a MasterCraft and a Sanger. Granted I bought used and he bought new and he pounded in my head that he would spend just the little extra to have the piece of mind that his boat would be more reliable and he knew all the history behind it. I got my Sanger first and after a few rides I swore that my next boat would be a new Sanger.. I can honestly say at this point seeing how long this process is taking and the level of "customer service" that is being shown, I question whether I WOULD buy another Sanger down the road.

Sanger has not done Jasons any favors here. In fact I will go as far to say they have not done anything to show good customer service or support behind their product.. Fixing a manufacturer defect on a boat that was sold for 40k+ is not doing anyone any special favors.

Now in Rodneys situation, THATS CUSTOMER SERVICE and a dealer that stands behind their product.

Allen, I tell you what, with your mentallity as a boat dealer, if you ever sold boats again, I can tell you after your post I would NEVER even consider looking at a boat you would sell, I dont care what brand. You think there is justification that Jason should have to deal with problems because he got a deal on his boat. Recession Spreecession thats all BS!

Heres the bottom line. Jason did a year of research before buying a boat. Jason is a smart consumer and does his research before buying a boat. Narrows down to the EXACT boat he wants. Jason finds the best deal on the boat so that he is not overpaying and getting the most for his hard earned money. Jason buys the boat and it runs for 2 days. Jasons boat all of a sudden doesnt run. Sanger or Mercruiser doesnt know what the problem is and returns the boat to Jason basically saying "your crazy" and I get because Scott says if it happens again "Ill personally come out and tow the boat in" I really believe that Scott thought that the problem doesnt exist or that commitment would never have been made. Problem happens again next time Jason goes out and Sanger now has the boat AND STILL DOESNT KNOW THE PROBLEM.

Bottom line, Jason is paying a of money every month for his boat payment, insurance, storage unit and guess what.. Jason gets to fart around at home because Sanger wont step to bat for him. THATS FAWKIN BS!!
Old     (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 10:01 AM Reply   
This thread is hilarious people need to live in the real world.

If a new car has an issue what happens, the customer has to wait for their dealer to fix it - no matter how long it takes that is life. I understand that rentals or loaners might be provided, but they are covered by the manufactorer's warranty not the dealer themselves.

Everyone who had read thru this should take a long look at the 6.0 liter Ford issue. How many trucks and engines were replaced at no charge to the owner under lemon law or warranty, 1000's - but only after numerous visits to service centers for EGR and Head Gasket Problems.

People need to realize that sh-t happens and 99% of the time their dealer and the boat manufactorer will do everything they can in order to keep a customer happy, but a customer needs to be understanding and patient - these parts don't just fall from the sky when needed, sometimes things take time.
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 10:11 AM Reply   
TQ, what has Sanger done in this case to keep Jason Happy?

Offered him a demo untill its fixed?
Offered him a new boat since they cant figure out the problem?
Offer some accessories or Add ons that he doesnt have to compensate for his time and money?

(Message edited by extremeisaac on August 13, 2009)
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 10:12 AM Reply   
Wow, I suck at the English language, i apparently need to stop typing because you guys are not understanding anything I am writing. I am willing to bet that I was possibly one of the best service oriented boat dealers in the US. Maybe one my customers will vouch for me on that.... I got out of the business because I could not sustain my business model without making the margins on the sales that it required. That being said, maybe you guys don't realize how bad it is. Where do you think Sanger is going to get the money to replace the engine if Mercruiser is pointing the finger at Sanger? I bet they won't see a dime until it is all said and one, engine sent back to mercuiser for testing and verified that it is a CPU issue. I know I don't have 15k to loan to anyone as a favor.

If you don't think I am siding with Jason you need to go back and read my posts. I just wanted to try to bring some perspective into the situation.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 10:13 AM Reply   
I agree Jonathan and you others, Yes the owner called me and said what they are going to do, Yes Scott has been working on this, but it doesnt negate the money I am out. I have paid for a storage that my boat has never been in (if I knew this I would have waited until September. Hell I am even out all the money I put into my camping trip. I should not have a boat with dirty carpet, very defined scratches and dirty seats, I should not have to wonder if it is going to break down again(with this reason)I will stay close to shore. Now maybe for some on here your rich and have 3 boats. I am not. So for me every penny counts. I am not bad mouthing anyone or maker, I am just stating the facts.
Old     (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 10:23 AM Reply   
I am not saying that Sanger has done anything for this guy - maybe they should, but that is their call. I would say a loaner boat or a replacement is out of the question, but I do think they should hook him up with some goodies since this has been going on for a few weeks, but remember it has only been a few weeks its not the end of the world. What if his tow vehicle broke down, should the vehicle manufactorer give him a new board and bindings since he can't tow the boat to the water?
Old     (jmanolinsky)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-13-2009, 10:27 AM Reply   
I think in the long run that Sanger may have cost themselves a few sales. You're right though Alan, they are doing all that they are required to do, maybe even a little more. What would it have cost to have another boat built for Jason and then repair and use his as a demo? Heck, they could even mention to potential buyers how this demo boat was a boat they had a problem with so they went beyond the right thing and took it back to be used as a demo. Jason would have been one of their best unpaid salesmen for years to come.

When people lay down their money, they shouldn't be suprised when they get what they paid for, they should expect it.

I do agree about the stereo install and the problem being electrical. Then again, if it is electrical, why the whole new motor?

I'm not saying everyone should get a new boat if their new one has a problem. In situations like this though, I think it would have been a win for everyone involved.
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 10:29 AM Reply   
Alan, mercruiser pointing fingers at sanger and sanger pointing fingers at mercruiser has nothing to do with Jason. They can figure out their problems blind to Jason. You dont hear people saying dont buy english cars with Bosch electronics.. you hear "dont get a range rover they are unreliable" Of Course Range Rover doesnt make their own electronics etc..

Ill say it right here with this experience, when I buy a new boat, If the dealer cannot provide a loaner boat if my boat is in the shop for more than a week, I wont buy it from them.
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 10:45 AM Reply   
The debate comes down to this...

Are you customer oriented or vendor oriented?

My parents taught me early on... "The customer is always right."

I think Sanger can and should get this guy a new boat. Anything else is penny wise and pound foolish.

And don't tell me they can't afford to do that. Let's be honest, they can't afford not to!
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 10:47 AM Reply   
Like I said before last year I knew nothing about boats and Issac introduced me into wake boarding when I cam back from being gone 15 years in Army. I fell in love, I started doing my research new and used, there is a REASONABLE EXPECTATION that something new would work, I choose new. To get a boat on Soldiers salary I cut things out of my life. One was entertainment, the boat would be my yearly entertainment so now with weeks going by I have nothing to do but get more and more p!ssed. Some people have said this is the norm, “welcome to the boat world” if that’s the case then I don’t want to be part of it, but I don’t think that is the case. I have met a lot of great people in this industry. I think Issac is right about Sanger. They have not gone out of their way to make me a happy customer. They are just doing what needs to be done.
Old     (nu2dagam)      Join Date: May 2004       08-13-2009, 10:50 AM Reply   
Alan, you sound like a typical "wasn't my fault" car salesmen. I dont know where they get the money to replace the engine. I would assume on the profit they make on the boats they sell. There are things that are within reason and there are things that are not within reason. What he is going through now is not within reason. And when my car needs warranty work, I get a loaner from the dealer, plain and simple. That is why I buy from that dealer. If he gives me the run around that he doesnt have a car to loan me, he wont sell me a car again and I will point people in the opposite direction. It is my money that I work hard for and I expect it to work for me. Give the man a loaner and this would all be solved. The first week wait is understandable, stuff happens. The second week and you dont have a clue, it is time to start making provisions. Not a new boat at the two week mark, but something to get him on the water. What if the new engine messes up, is he entitled to a new boat then? Where do you draw the line, or is he suppossed to take it as long as it is necessary?
Old     (cla10beck)      Join Date: Dec 2007       08-13-2009, 10:51 AM Reply   
This just goes to show that the dealer makes all the difference.

Perhaps, if the boat was purchased from a different dealer with a good reputation, he would have been offered a demo boat or other compensation. Dealers with good reputations sometimes demand a higher price.

Instead, the boat was purchased from a place that buys boats repo'ed from other dealers, but does not offer top notch service. Yeah, a couple of bucks were saved on the initial purchase, but it is costing more in the long run.
Old     (nu2dagam)      Join Date: May 2004       08-13-2009, 10:54 AM Reply   
And we do realize how bad it is, that is why we expect what we pay for in these tough times. The dealers are not the only ones that are suffering in this economy, the consumer is too. I would bet the owner of Sanger has more disposable income then Jason does.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 11:01 AM Reply   
Ok, so what is a good deal? I went to 6 dealers all were the same price for Sangers. I didnt shop until I found a good deal, I felt I could trust Mr. Cope. What was not cool was the parent dealership Tracy Boat Center someone there telling me not to drop the boat off there when I was coming back from the Don Pedro. instead I had to (once again my dime) bring it it San Jose, when my storage is at Orwood. That is in my mind.
Old     (johnny_jr)      Join Date: Mar 2006       08-13-2009, 11:02 AM Reply   
I guess I never reported back on the stereo issues Scott pointed out earlier in this thread. In the end there were no stereo or battery related problems, We spend over 8 hours verifing the install was up to spec. We then replace the tried and true perko with an over the top relay/isolator/voltage regulator that cost more time and over $150. In the end nothing, and I mean nothing with the stereo had any relation to the problems on Jason's boat. If Jason's boat had no stereo at all, not even a basic deck, it would still have the problems Sanger and Merc are dealing with today.

I will reframe from speculation as to where the problem is. I agree completely that the r/r of the motor and wiring is a very good call. Eliminate all possible problems PERIOD.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 11:13 AM Reply   
Thats right I'm even out that money, and didnt even need to buy it I had a pergo in it, I was told that was the reason. As we see now it was not! and no one offered to pay the cost for it Sanger, Merc, or the Dealer. Its all about customer service!!! I rather spend more on something else then go back to a cheaper thing and have bad service. Johnny and his cure at Liquid Trends 100% great customer service!

(Message edited by black_ops_09 on August 13, 2009)
Old     (pavement_rider)      Join Date: Feb 2009       08-13-2009, 11:28 AM Reply   
Can the dealer that provides loaner boats to their customers please chime in here if you exist. As far as the dealer spending some of his profit to take care of the customer where does it(the profit) come from if the boat is sold for 8K below real dealer cost. From what I read on here sounds like both Merc and Sanger are working extra hard to help your dealer resolve your problem
Old     (nu2dagam)      Join Date: May 2004       08-13-2009, 11:57 AM Reply   
There have been multiple consumers on here that have received demo boats when a problem turned into a persistent problem.
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 12:12 PM Reply   
have any of them been Sanger owners?
Old    brycejay            08-13-2009, 12:14 PM Reply   
Man, this situation sucks. I must say that my patience would be GONE at this point. I would have to agree with alan on this one. At this point Sanger is out of excuses and needs to replace the boat or give Jason his money back. Unless Sanger comes back and says they will replace the boat, storage costs, transportation costs, ect. I would be getting a lawyer involved. Call me a dick or whatever, I just think they should do what's fair. Unless I see otherwise, I will be running from Sanger in the fuure. If the boating industry can't do what's fair for customers then I will NEVER even think about buying a new boat in the future from anywhere.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 12:25 PM Reply   
Issac I know Kenny had an issue with his new Sanger and the Dealer took care of a lot, even 20 hour service and 50 hour service.

Kenny (ghostrider_2) on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 8:45 pm:

Jason,
this time as they work on your boat insist on them letting you use a demo boat until yours is fixed. I would probably not feel confortable being on the water in the water with my kids and not know if the boat is going to sheet itself. Have them fix it and run it for like 8 hours straight to ensure its fixed this time, and also they should be more than willing to pay for your first 20 hour service and 50 hour service because of the inconvience (using a nice word)this has caused you. Like I said with my boat and the air in the fuel rail issue it took them over 3 weeks, and 2 times they gave it back to me only to do it again. Each time I did get a demo boat to take the family out in and the service was also taken care of at the 20 and 50 hour mark.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-13-2009, 12:26 PM Reply   
If you are bringing up the dealer having to do with the problem then I believe that shows how piss poor The Kal Kustoms model is. They open dealers all over the place and then certain dealers whore out the boats. This screws all the dealers because then they all have to lower the price of their boats. This might sound like it is good for the customer because they are getting a better price but when it comes time for warranty work or any customer service these dealers are less likely to provide great customer service and help them out. This even happens within companies. When I worked for Cope and McPhetres there was competition between Cope's stores. It drove the prices down and service and relationships suffered because of it. It also is really annoying to as a salesmen to spend a bunch of time with a customer and then find out or have them tell you they found the boat for 5k less in another state because the boat manufacturer has no territory map. Business's remember that crap and you can bet they aren't going to go out of their way to help that customer and I wouldn't expect them to. The customer shouldn't expect them to either. If their are no margins in the boats then the dealer is not making as much money and then less likely to be able to loan a boat to the customer or go out of his way to really help them. It kind of brings a used car lot mentality to boat sales. Customer's also need to realize that there are 3 main things that go with buying something and you only get to choose 2 of the 3. The 3 things are quality, service and price. We know Sanger makes a high quality boat. In most cases(not all, but most) their dealers are not the high level of service type dealers you see. They work on getting a sale and then moving on vs really creating a relationship with every customer that goes beyond selling them a boat.

Sorry, this is kind of a rant but why do you think Supreme, Sanger and Centurion are not known for having good dealers on the West Coast.

Jason, your situation flat out sucks and hopefully they do enough to make you happy in the long run. Hopefully a few years down the road you can replace all these bad feelings with enough good one's to outweigh them.
Old     (nu2dagam)      Join Date: May 2004       08-13-2009, 12:28 PM Reply   
Isaac, exactly, and due to this they probably wont be in the future.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 12:40 PM Reply   
Brett, and those points you made I wish I knew before hand. It could have swayed me another way.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-13-2009, 12:50 PM Reply   
This situation has not changed my opinion of Sanger, I would buy another in a heart beat. Bottom line is S**t happens and sometimes things don't work out like you dream they would but its not the end of the world. Moaning about lost money for storage and a camping trip gone bad is unreasonable IMO, as long as the boat is fixed and comes back in showroom condition then Sanger has done what they need to do.

For me this is the bottom line:
After sales service is provided mostly by the dealer and then backed up by the manufacturer when a serious issue arises. A fact of life is: Shopping around for the cheapest price and buying a dealer repo means the after sales service will be lower than what a dealer would give who made a reasonable margin on the boat. It is not reasonable to expect the manufacturer to pick up this slack.
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 1:02 PM Reply   
Darren, I would think that would be true after your warranty expired but on a boat with 5 hours on it, the head guy of Kal Kustoms and the head mechanic at mercruiser cant figure out whats going on, that Sanger should step up to take care of Jason. Just because you bought a brand new boat from a dealer who bailed out dealers that couldnt stay in business doesnt mean you get to be treated like a 3rd class citizen.

I bought a used Benz a few years ago.. there was a recall on the harmonic balancer which failed on my car.. keep in mind i bought the car used.. it took the dealer 2 weeks to order the parts and fix the problem and I got a free Mercedes Benz loaner vehicle and I didnt even buy the car new or from the dealer... Boats are a luxury item. They are not for everyone and not everyone can be fortunate enough to own one.. so in my eyes a 40k purchase thats being used 4-6 months out of the year deserves a step up in customer service
Old     (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       08-13-2009, 1:33 PM Reply   
I have been on this site for something like 5 years now. in this amount of time, I have ssen like 1-2 issues with Sanger. when I get back into the market, I will more than likely be getting a sanger. one issue does not make or break a company. if someone decides not to purchase a sanger based off of Jason's experience here, I feel bad for you. wait till you get involved with those companies who produce many, many more boats. this just equates to more problems. IMO.

good luck jason. Scott is a stand up guy, and he will do you right in the long run.
Old     (nu2dagam)      Join Date: May 2004       08-13-2009, 1:40 PM Reply   
I would look at a sanger as well, some people will not, but IF something like this happened to me, I would be asking for compensation for all of my lost time. Not a 20 hour service. I would want something to ride behind while my boat was down for a month. If I didnt get it, the next boat I bought would not be a sanger. All products can be defective, but time is something you can not get back and is worth more to me than a 20 hour service. But that is just me.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-13-2009, 1:44 PM Reply   
I don't think your are getting my point Isaac, who provided you with a loan Merc, a dealer or the manufacturer?
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 1:45 PM Reply   
That is correct. TIME!
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 1:49 PM Reply   
Sanger or the dealer should have to provide a loaner.. and whether the dealer wants to pursuse sanger to reimburse for the loaner, or sanger wants to pursue Mercruiser with the faulty motor for the loaner is between them.. at the end of the day, Jason bought his boat from a smaller dealer with a boat that says Sanger on the side of it... not bosch, mercruiser, perfect pass or anyone else

(Message edited by extremeisaac on August 13, 2009)
Old     (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-13-2009, 2:25 PM Reply   
I find it amusing that people think this guy is a second class citizen for buying a repo'd boat. My guess is that the dealer got a good deal when it took a boat that had been repo'd from another dealer. Otherwise, there would be NO incentive to take it on. While I understand that a dealer may jump through more hoops to make a customer who paid more happy, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't offer all of their customers quality service. Sanger is even more to blame. Here they have extra inventory because they have dealers that went out of business. Given that they need their existing dealers to move more inventory due to losing other distribution points, I'd think they would help out their dealers that are still hanging on. I'd also figure that here in 2009 when we have tons of dealer repos around, the opportunity cost for them to swap a customer's lemon for a properly functioning product is certainly lower than usual.
Old     (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-13-2009, 2:49 PM Reply   
As it concerns "demo" boats we have VERY strict manufacture guidelines as to what we can and can not do. The specifics can mean differences upwards of 10k when it’s time for me to sell that boat. If one of my guys does something to render your boat un-useable for more than a week or so I would seriously be more apt to give you the keys to my personal boat and say have fun, than pull a boat from the line. In this situation I can not see where the dealer is doing anything other than diligently trying to fix this problem. Thus to preemptively state that this dealer should offer a "demo" boat with no concept of what that involves is arbitrary at best. You seriously think I want to give a new, 75k plus, covered by my insurance boat to one of the jackasses from your, "My disastrous weekend on (insert popular waterway here)." threads? While I don't believe Jason to be one of these people, I have customers that are great buddies at the shop, but that I would not dream of taking a ride in a boat with.

Finally, sorry to break it to you, but the customer is most certainly NOT always right. In any sociodynamic example you will inevitably find those that will take advantage of a person/business if allowed to do so. It is those people that ruin it for consumers like Jason. While my customers will attest to the fact I would bend over backwards for them, sometimes you simply just have to say no. It has literally been the difference between running a successful business and having to let employees go.

Sorry if I'm ranting, but that’s just .02c from a dealer who values staying in business.
Old    brycejay            08-13-2009, 3:12 PM Reply   
Matt, I know where you are coming from when you say the customer id not always right. In this case I think the customer is right. I'm not blaming Sanger or merc or whoever, but service is service. People are going crazy acting like Sanger is jumping through hoops and going out of there way to make this right, when in reality they are just doing what they are supposed to be doing and that's figuring out the problem. By now it's taken way too long to figure out the problem and Sanger needs to step up and show some real service. I have heard nothing but good things about Sanger and I would hate for people to remember this thread when they consider buying a boat. Honestly, crap happens. It's what companies do for the customers when crap does happen that seperates them from everybody else.
Old     (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-13-2009, 3:33 PM Reply   
True Bryce, maby I was not as clear as I should have been. It IS my (and the Sanger Dealer's) responsibility as a dealer to represent you as a customer to the boat manufacture with just as much passion as I represent the boats with. In this case I do believe that Sanger should step up to the plate just as much as I believe my Manufacture should in a similar situation.

I was simply stating my point as it regarded the "demo" boat suggestions.
Old     (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       08-13-2009, 3:55 PM Reply   
Have you all seen matt's boat in his profile. If his personal loner comes with all four accessories on the back you may want to consider buying a Master Craft from him. HAHA!
Old     (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 4:07 PM Reply   
Brett - a lot of what you have said is true and I understand where you are coming from but don't include all of us. There are a few dealers that sell Supreme or Sanger product that have been in the marine industry for lets say 50 years and stand behind their customers!

We're not all used car dealers trying to sell $40-60K dollar boats without a service department or a clue about boating.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-13-2009, 4:16 PM Reply   
TQ, yeah that was a big generalization. I am sure there are a few out their who run a business based off customer service instead of price. Anybody can sell a something based on having the cheapest price.
Old     (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       08-13-2009, 4:35 PM Reply   
This can all be summed up by what Bryce said in one sentence! I believe this. customer service is what keeps you from not so good eateries, shops, dealers, you name it.

Honestly, crap happens. It's what companies do for the customers when crap does happen that separates them from everybody else.
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 4:41 PM Reply   
"as long as the boat is fixed and comes back in showroom condition then Sanger has done what they need to do"

It's not about what Sanger needs to do. It's about what they should do.

Letting this guy sit at home all summer w/out his new boat may be justified by the letter of the warranty... but it is clearly not a good way to run a business, especially one that prides itself on a grass-routs, word-of-mouth marketing strategy.

I always thought of Sanger as a small, family oriented boat manufacturer that focused less on bling and more on substance. Their reputation on this forum certainly reflects that. This kind of negative publicity is poison to a company like that.
Old     (pavement_rider)      Join Date: Feb 2009       08-13-2009, 4:49 PM Reply   
the demo
What kind should it be ?
where does it come from ?
Who insures it?
If it is floored by a bank are they Ok with hrs being cranked up on it?
Will he drive it like his own or a rental car?
If rental car can the demo be a bayliner?
Honestly there is more to it than just throw the keys to the customer and say have fun
Old    mendo247            08-13-2009, 4:53 PM Reply   
This whole situaion sucks. Like most people who have been around here for a long time we have ALL seen threads regarding a horror story with all the different boat companies. At this point I would think Jason would be happy just to have his boat back and running. Wether he hates Sanger or not is his issue. Sure I would have liked to see Sanger step up more but I've seen threads over the years where they have gone out of the way to help people out. My opinion wont change. I've got my fingers crossed for you Jason! Hopefully you get your boat back tomorrow.
Old     (pavement_rider)      Join Date: Feb 2009       08-13-2009, 4:56 PM Reply   
I'm with coop it sucks and we all wish Jason a quick resolution and many happy years of boating
Old     (dohboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-13-2009, 5:02 PM Reply   
Although I agree this is way too long for this to have gone on. How long should it take to diagnose a "mystery" problem. Mercruiser just doesn't want to replace motors if the mfg doesn't really know whats wrong. And does Sanger hold the blame for installing a possibly faulty motor they got from a crate? In a perfect world an engine code would have come up and bam everyone would now what to do. This is a suck deal for Jason but before jumping the gun lets see how this ends and how Sanger really takes care of him. Hopefully we are all satisfied at how it ends once the real problem is corrected. And Jason can put this behind him and be satisfied with the final outcome. But for now we should assume the proper procedures are being followed and everyone is doing all they can for Jason.

The worst part is being boatless in summer. But I see everyones point about a loaner boat. When I took my truck in for warranty work the dealer billed GM for the rental but as there are no rental boats that request is probably hard to get.
Old     (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 5:14 PM Reply   
I'm not reading thru all of this again - but where was this boat bought from? Jason, the dealer should be "hooking you up" - they are the ones who sold you the boat -
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 5:36 PM Reply   
^^^ disagree 100%. this is beyond the dealer. it's on sanger now to step up and get jason on the water. if i was the ceo of sanger and reading this thread, jason would have a new boat in his storage unit two weeks ago.

sanger can play grabass with mercruiser on their own time.
Old     (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2009, 5:46 PM Reply   
Lets say Sanger just gives Jason a new boat - who spends (or pays for) the 40 hours of time on the paperwork nightmare that would follow with the registration, the titles, the bank problems since the boat is financed, the warranty registration problems, etc. Then multiply this X's 2 and do it with the trailer as well.

Call Mike Brendella at MB and ask him if he would just give you a new boat if you had problems with yours - I highly doubt it.
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 6:18 PM Reply   
I agree with IXFE 100% and the paper work is sangers/dealers business.. when you spend over 40k on a boat you deserve the best service plus a reach around IMO
Old     (extremeisaac)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-13-2009, 6:20 PM Reply   
I just talked to Jason a few min ago on the phone.. My opinion to him and Please I hope Scott and/or the people of Sanger are reading this.. AT THE BARE MINIMUM give this man a nice cover and throw a spare tire on his trailer... I would really like to see that
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-13-2009, 6:23 PM Reply   
Most if not all of the proposed resolutions are so laughable. Guess what guy's none of your boat companys are even gonna come out and tow you in let alone replace your friggin boat with a shiny new one. I love your altruistic belief that "if I owned the company I'd just hand him a new boat" no you sure as hell wouldn't. When you buy a boat, car, whatever you concede that fact you may have problems and if you do that the problem will be remedied as well as possible. Another thing, when you buy from a dealer thats where the customer service comes into play not at the manufacturer level. If the manufacturer steps up beyond the typical scope, just as it is here, then kudos to them. ixfe, Sanger is stepping up and doing their best to get him back on the water asap. Sanger has virtually nothing but high praise for the efforts in customer service and I think this is another representation of said service not the antithesis as most here would try and make us believe. If the problem is irreparable then a new boat is in order but I don't see that happening.
Old     (dohboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-13-2009, 6:38 PM Reply   
Hate, when someone brings a Ford back for warranty who flips the bill. I assume Ford not the dealer. It is Sangers problem. The dealer can be cordial but Im sure its the same as a car and the MFG covers the MFG Warranty. After all its not a dealer warranty. I am willing to bet though with someone associated with Sanger handling this Jason will get an apology and some sort of compensation. Its gonna be impossible to get back 20+ days but I hope Sanger will go out of their way somehow.
Old     (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-13-2009, 6:39 PM Reply   
By Jason Ollom (black_ops_09) on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 8:07 pm:

"Yea it is there, Mike called me and said they are going to replace the engine and everything the package comes with. Said back by Friday"

...that would be tomorrow Aug. 14 with a new engine. Exactly three weeks from when the problem first came up, on on July 24

Is it a bummer to be without your new boat for three weeks in the summer? YES! Would I want to be in Jason's position? NO! But in the big picture, I think any other dealer/engine supplier/ manufacturer could not have acted any sooner. These issues take some time to diagnose, digest, and resolve. One doesn't just say, ummm OK it's broken, here's a new one! Sheesh, I've read threads where someone was dealing with a boat mfg. or dealer for months to get a problem resolved.

Like I said, Three weeks for Jason is a bummer, but I'm pretty impressed with the personal response Scott has given him.

Hopefully, the new engine does the trick and Jason can move on and enjoy all the pleasures boating offers.

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