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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-15-2015, 7:20 PM Reply   
Is this France's 911?
How long till the U.S. Can expect something like this?
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-16-2015, 12:35 AM Reply   
Unless US foreign policy changes it is inevitable
Old     (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       11-16-2015, 6:35 AM Reply   
If the USA extracts itself from the Middle East completely including the CIA, security forces protecting private oil interests, and all American troops, I'm sure that we could expect that nothing like this will ever happen to the USA again.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-16-2015, 9:34 AM Reply   
The solution to terror is not to reinforce the us and them mentality but to recognize all humanity have to share the planet and to renounce all violence against fellow man. We have many more similarities than differences. I like Russell Brands take on it:
https://youtu.be/Dg8Y0WpbfZw
Old     (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-16-2015, 9:55 AM Reply   
Russel Brand needs to first get out of bed if he wants to be taken seriously while speaking. That still probably won't do it for me though...
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       11-16-2015, 11:49 AM Reply   
Anyone know of a peaceful muslim group (if such a thing exists) denouncing these terror acts yet?
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-16-2015, 12:23 PM Reply   
To contrast your buddy Russell Brand...

https://www.facebook.com/www.mulherb...1803526437480/

Last edited by diamonddad; 11-16-2015 at 12:23 PM. Reason: .
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-16-2015, 12:57 PM Reply   
It's just a matter of time. http://news.yahoo.com/-islamic-state...154815257.html
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       11-16-2015, 1:28 PM Reply   
It's going to happen here. Probably in the near future. One can only hope that it's not his or her family that gets attacked when it does happen. This morning during my commute on the BART train a friend and I were discussing all of the attractive targets in the Bay Area. A packed BART train in the trans-bay tunnel is an ideal target.

Meanwhile our own government is disarming us and stripping us of our ability to fight back.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-16-2015, 4:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabledog View Post
Anyone know of a peaceful muslim group (if such a thing exists) denouncing these terror acts yet?
There's a list of middle eastern govt's condemning the attacks (including Iran) here: http://www.usnews.com/news/world/art...-paris-attacks
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-16-2015, 4:16 PM Reply   
It's a bit depressing, everyone seems to agree moving forward more terrorist attacks will happen on US soil yet the popular response seems to be lets do the same as we have been doing over the last 50 years but more/harder. So many people will loose there lives. Sad.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-16-2015, 4:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabledog View Post
Anyone know of a peaceful muslim group (if such a thing exists) denouncing these terror acts yet?
http://time.com/4112830/muslims-pari...islam-condemn/
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-16-2015, 5:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
A packed BART train in the trans-bay tunnel is an ideal target.
Yes, if lunatics want to go crazy and shoot up "soft" targets they can. Whatcha gonna do? In this case there was an avg kill rate of under 20 people per terrorist. Not terribly different from your typical school / college shooting scenario in the US on a kills per perp basis.

What would the reaction be if eight people carried out coordinated school shootings in the US?

Prolly that we need more access to mental health treatment and that we need to enforce the laws already on the books.

I'm not saying paris and beirut are not great human tragedies. But I sure hope that a few dudes with AKs don't get us involved on the ground in the heart of the ME again.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-16-2015, 6:10 PM Reply   
Islam needs to get their house in order. It's a tough call since they are fundamentally extreme.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-16-2015, 10:24 PM Reply   
Hmmmm, 500,000 deaths in Iraq since Poppa bush cleared out all of those pesky WMD's.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4102855.html
It's not just Islam that needs to get its house in order
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-17-2015, 12:25 AM Reply   
Liberal Dribble.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-17-2015, 5:36 AM Reply   
Interesting article about two of the people involved here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...7bR5HbqZckk.97

Seems much more complicated to me than saying it's just about refugees or whatever.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-17-2015, 7:55 AM Reply   
Jarrod, move to Florida. Nobody is being disarmed here. Bring your boat too. You can keep it in my boat house until you find a better spot.
Old     (fouroheight68)      Join Date: May 2006       11-17-2015, 7:57 AM Reply   
ISIS is a cult of weak minded and/or vulnerable individuals who are attracted to the ideology and are brainwashed. It's Jim Jones on a larger scale. The difference between ISIS and other terror cells (IE Al Queda) is the apocalyptic nature of their beliefs. In my opinion, ISIS is as much Islam as Heavens Gate was Christian.
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       11-17-2015, 9:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
Islam needs to get their house in order. It's a tough call since they are fundamentally extreme.
If you think about it though, most major religions are somewhat extreme in nature. All of them put their god above anything else, and teach that serving the will of your god is your purpose in life. It's the interpretation that's the problem. Let's not forget that throughout 90% of its history, Christianity was interpreted to encourage crusades, inquisitions, burnings, etc.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-17-2015, 9:55 AM Reply   
Any ideology that suspends reason to rely on faith has the possibility to be dangerous
Old    deltahoosier            11-17-2015, 11:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttime41 View Post
If you think about it though, most major religions are somewhat extreme in nature. All of them put their god above anything else, and teach that serving the will of your god is your purpose in life. It's the interpretation that's the problem. Let's not forget that throughout 90% of its history, Christianity was interpreted to encourage crusades, inquisitions, burnings, etc.
Wrong. That is Catholic religion who ordered crusades, inquisitions, burnings. Inquisitions killed actual Christians and others who did not believe paganistic themes being brought into the Christian religion. Before that, they fed Christians to the lions for not believing in the pagan gods.

On the issue of the Crusades. That is just a continuation of the wars with the middle east that continue to this day. Islam came about around 800 AD. Muhammad preached to kill the Christian and Jews after they rejected his teachings. You will never fix the middle east issue. You have to do what Europe has done since recorded history. You have to beat them back and isolate them. Everyone used to complain that it was America supporting these rulers over there. Now we know why. They need a tyrant unfortunately. Some people can not rule themselves.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-17-2015, 12:15 PM Reply   
Sadly, oil empowers the pathetic culture of the middle east. We need to do everything we can to reduce their financial resource, keep the resource to the few and encourage them to fight each other. Sadly, we took out Saddam who was a perfect pawn for this game.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-17-2015, 1:13 PM Reply   
If you can't suspend reason to rely on faith, you've probably never landed a late back roll to blind.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-17-2015, 1:22 PM Reply   
Actually, the Catholic Church crusaded to take Jerusalem because they were about to get rolled by the caliphate. Better to fight in territory they own and distract from a forward advance than risk the fall of the capital. It was sold as religious, it was actually strategic. They really had few options. War 1000 years ago was extra brutal from both sides-rape, murder, tout ute were the norm.
Old     (Ttime41)      Join Date: Nov 2011       11-17-2015, 3:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
If you can't suspend reason to rely on faith, you've probably never landed a late back roll to blind.
Lol
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-17-2015, 5:43 PM Reply   
What Dane said X2.
Congress is asking Obama to "pause" on the program to import 10,000 Syrian refugees into United States. Look at all the states that are saying Thanks But no thanks to Syrian refugees.
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/republ...rian-refugees/
Notice how the news report states that only 2% of all Syrian refugees are single males of combat age so 2% of 10,000 equals only 200 Males! Great That makes me feel so much better. What a Joke!
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-17-2015, 7:08 PM Reply   
I think this is all a hoax. France is a gun free zone so no way this could have happened.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-17-2015, 11:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
If you can't suspend reason to rely on faith, you've probably never landed a late back roll to blind.
Touche, that is really quite excellent
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-18-2015, 8:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
If you can't suspend reason to rely on faith, you've probably never landed a late back roll to blind.
This explains a lot about my slow progression.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-18-2015, 9:44 AM Reply   
CNN Anchors Want Muslims to Accept Responsibility for Paris At...

These CNN anchors accused the Muslim community of “shirking” its responsibility for the Paris attacks.

Posted by AJ+ on Monday, November 16, 2015
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-18-2015, 5:44 PM Reply   
Is that like wanting all Christians to take responsibility for the KKK?
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-18-2015, 5:46 PM Reply   
The Muslim countries will not even take them for fear of terrorism spreading, but never fear because our leaders have declared ISIS contained. http://chattooga.allongeorgia.com/6-...rian-refugees/
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-18-2015, 6:35 PM Reply   
I got to say this France has some huge balls they say that this attack is not going to stop or slow down them excepting 30,000 Syrian immigrants.

In my opinion France will regret it for years to come. Other European countries like Denmark are Regretting it.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-18-2015, 11:14 PM Reply   
More liberal dribble about the KKK. The KKK insignificant and inactive. They are not killing innocent people across the globe. The are 5000 or so strong and mostly inactive. Every Christian denomination has officially denounced the KKK. And, if they were doing anything like what ISIS is doing in the name of Jesus, I am certain the Christian community would be in a massive uproar!
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 12:37 AM Reply   
Sure the scale is different but the principle of a macro group taking responsibility for sub group actions is just odd to me. I dont feel responsible when another middle aged white guy goes postal or whatever. Why a peaceful Muslim is somehow responsible for another person who shares some of the same beliefs actions i just don't understand. Lumping people together in this way achieves nothing but distorts the real drivers to peoples behavior.
Kinda like labeling any idea you don't like as "liberal" with out actually considering it.
Old    deltahoosier            11-19-2015, 1:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
Is that like wanting all Christians to take responsibility for the KKK?
Why would Christians take responsibility for the KKK? The democrats founded the KKK. Let them speak for them. Besides, if a Christian does something stupid like this, Christians absolutely stand up and say it is wrong and would tell the police exactly where to find the people if they know who and where.
Old    deltahoosier            11-19-2015, 1:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
Sure the scale is different but the principle of a macro group taking responsibility for sub group actions is just odd to me. I dont feel responsible when another middle aged white guy goes postal or whatever. Why a peaceful Muslim is somehow responsible for another person who shares some of the same beliefs actions i just don't understand. Lumping people together in this way achieves nothing but distorts the real drivers to peoples behavior.
Kinda like labeling any idea you don't like as "liberal" with out actually considering it.
Everyone wants others to speak to what ever the uproar of the day is.

With that said, the people who can help stop this is the Muslim religious leaders. The rational is, you only get to heaven in Islam through the scales of justice or being a Martyr. You would not have people running around blowing themselves up in the name of Allah if you did not have a Imams declaring a fatwa against the west. There are all sorts of fatwas declared by islam to attack the west and the there is no vocal opposition to the fatwas by other Imams. Why are there no vocal opposition against this? It is written in the Quran that infidels either 1) pay taxes for not being muslim 2) Convert 3) have their heads cut off. There is no other way in the religion. That is why you will not find a Imam who is against the fatwas because they would be going against the Quran and then be marked for death.

See how that works? That is why dealing with them as a culture is insane. You may have moderates, however they are not following the teachings and they themselves would be marked for death when the hardliners take over.

Many say let them in. I say no. Only a small part of the Germans were nazis in WW2. Why didn't France let in the rest of the German army?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-19-2015, 1:44 PM Reply   
The House votes to "pause" the flow of Syrian refugees. But the POTUS say's Nope!
Attached Images
 
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 2:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Christians absolutely stand up and say it is wrong and would tell the police exactly where to find the people if they know who and where.
If you want to find this type of reaction from the Muslim world you only need to look
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/...Fz19vcp5K.html
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 2:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
There are all sorts of fatwas declared by islam to attack the west and the there is no vocal opposition to the fatwas by other Imams.
Not true, see above. Just because it is not broadcast on mainstream news doesn't mean it isn't happening, you just need to look.

I'll make make my wordy point in a minute

Last edited by ralph; 11-19-2015 at 2:31 PM.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 2:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Only a small part of the Germans were nazis in WW2. Why didn't France let in the rest of the German army?
They did! Needed the Americans to kick them out!
Old     (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-19-2015, 2:32 PM Reply   
"Wrong. That is Catholic religion who ordered crusades, inquisitions, burnings. Inquisitions killed actual Christians and others who did not believe paganistic themes being brought into the Christian religion. Before that, they fed Christians to the lions for not believing in the pagan gods."
Wrong! You can not have Christianity without the Catholic religion, the Catholics carried the Cristian religion for several hundreds of years, unless your one of these stupid religions who's preacher says that they were never a part of the Catholic religion and their one true religion goes back 2015 years, morons!
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 2:38 PM Reply   
All I'm saying is the average Muslim is no different than the average Christian. The driving factor turning a Muslim into dangerous radical is invading their country, stealing there resources and reducing the quality of there life. If the shoe was on the other foot and it was the arab world with the power plunding the west then there would be just as many radical Christians blowing themselves up for Gods glory.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 2:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
Wrong! You can not have Christianity without the Catholic religion, the Catholics carried the Cristian religion for several hundreds of years, unless your one of these stupid religions who's preacher says that they were never a part of the Catholic religion and their one true religion goes back 2015 years, morons!
Ho ho, I know for a fact some Christians think Catholics aren't Christians at all. You can't reason with that mentality.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-19-2015, 3:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
All I'm saying is the average Muslim is no different than the average Christian. The driving factor turning a Muslim into dangerous radical is invading their country, stealing there resources and reducing the quality of there life. If the shoe was on the other foot and it was the arab world with the power plunding the west then there would be just as many radical Christians blowing themselves up for Gods glory.
Those are factors sure. But there's also the McVey/Kazinski/Lanza "unhinged guy" motivation as well. You don't have to be muslim to be a terrorist.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-19-2015, 3:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Why would Christians take responsibility for the KKK? The democrats founded the KKK. Let them speak for them. Besides, if a Christian does something stupid like this, Christians absolutely stand up and say it is wrong and would tell the police exactly where to find the people if they know who and where.
Just like how all dem good christians outed homegrown terrorist eric rudolph, right?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0604/p01s02-usju.html
Old    deltahoosier            11-19-2015, 3:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
"Wrong. That is Catholic religion who ordered crusades, inquisitions, burnings. Inquisitions killed actual Christians and others who did not believe paganistic themes being brought into the Christian religion. Before that, they fed Christians to the lions for not believing in the pagan gods."
Wrong! You can not have Christianity without the Catholic religion, the Catholics carried the Cristian religion for several hundreds of years, unless your one of these stupid religions who's preacher says that they were never a part of the Catholic religion and their one true religion goes back 2015 years, morons!
Really? The Christian religion started and ends with Christ. Hate to tell you, Christ died on the cross 300 hundred years before the catholic religion. Before the catholic religion they used to throw the Christians to the lions for not believing in the pagan gods. After the catholic religion, they threw the christian to the lions because they did not believe in the paganism wrapped up in christian themes.

If you believe in your version of the religions. Of Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam; how do people believe they obtain heaven in those three religions?
Old    deltahoosier            11-19-2015, 4:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
All I'm saying is the average Muslim is no different than the average Christian. The driving factor turning a Muslim into dangerous radical is invading their country, stealing there resources and reducing the quality of there life. If the shoe was on the other foot and it was the arab world with the power plunding the west then there would be just as many radical Christians blowing themselves up for Gods glory.
In your article, you quoted the Hindu's magazine? They are not muslim. I guess you got that from the same source as the number of dead Iraqi's since the invasion. Not a reliable source I'm afraid.Since America went into Iraq, roughly 34 million Americans have died too. I can simply put out number of deaths without context too.

We did not invade Syria, Egypt, Libya, most of Africa, Thailand, Philipines, and all the other places where muslim violence is being dealt with.

It is clearly in the Quran what it says to do with non believers. I suppose the west causes them to still sell slaves, perform genital mutilation of women, throw gay people off rooftops? Did the west cause that too?
Old    deltahoosier            11-19-2015, 4:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Just like how all dem good christians outed homegrown terrorist eric rudolph, right?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0604/p01s02-usju.html
Yep. One person in how many billion? He may have had friends or he may have had someone who did not know who he was. Did you hear Christians supporting him? Do you know that the people that may have helped him were Christians.

Don't even start. Even Bill Maher does not agree with you and he is the biggest leftist in the country.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-19-2015, 6:37 PM Reply   
Welcome back, Rod, you were missed. Hope you and the family are doing well.

Have to disagree with you on Christians outing Christians though. Just look at the Duggars and those in their circle. Or the vast circles of conspiracy surrounding decades of clergy sexual abuse.

You're absolutely right that religiosity is a dangerous tool and easily lends itself to radicalization, especially in societies that can't seem to evolve past the 16th century.

Obama's veto is the right move. Obviously vetting is extremely important, but so is accepting the refugees. The governors need to read the constitution, and the house needs to do some thinking about ISIS' goals and how not to play right into them.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 7:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
In your article, you quoted the Hindu's magazine? They are not muslim.
Eh, ok. You know you don't have to be Arab to be a Muslim right?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b002d5c0779b9e


Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
It is clearly in the Quran what it says to do with non believers. I suppose the west causes them to still sell slaves, perform genital mutilation of women, throw gay people off rooftops? Did the west cause that too?
Wowzers. I can catalog all the crappy things the bible has used to justify if you like but the point is this is not a Christian good Muslim bad situation.

Clearly you misunderstand my point. The religion is not the problem, if a person acts in a despicable way there is no excuse for it, they must take personal responsibility for it. Religion or no. I thought a "Conservative" would think this way too?

My personal view is all religion is silly but if someone is wired that way then I have no problem with them following it.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-19-2015, 7:49 PM Reply   
I guess a simaley is drug use, my personal feeling is if someone wants to take drugs then good luck to them, their body, there domain. But if they harm themselves or others while indulging then they have to pay the price, the same if they did the action while sober.

Thinking about it I do have a problem with someone drinking and driving even if they don't crash their car so maybe there is some cognitive dissidence there.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-19-2015, 10:06 PM Reply   
Call me harsh but...

I say NO to accepting refugees from a toxic area of the world such as the middle east. Feed them, clothe them, and house them OVER THERE. And, let them get in line and prove their worth with all the other folks wanting into our country.

Last edited by diamonddad; 11-19-2015 at 10:09 PM. Reason: typo
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       11-20-2015, 7:17 AM Reply   
I agree. Don't we have some FEMA trailers sitting around somewhere? I cannot possibly see why people are against the legislation to screen them harder.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       11-20-2015, 8:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
Call me harsh but...

I say NO to accepting refugees from a toxic area of the world such as the middle east. Feed them, clothe them, and house them OVER THERE. And, let them get in line and prove their worth with all the other folks wanting into our country.
I'm with you. Screw that. Our ship is sicking fast and there is no more room. I understand that this country was found on immigrants, but that's no longer sustainable.

Second, believe the security risk factor does exist.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-20-2015, 9:38 AM Reply   
This situation is a litmus test for American Christians and they are failing miserably. But don't worry your imaginary God can't really smite you anyway. Come join us seculars and you can reject the refugees without being a hypocrite.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-20-2015, 10:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
There are all sorts of fatwas declared by islam to attack the west and the there is no vocal opposition to the fatwas by other Imams.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...5AVqqd6HFbP.97
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-20-2015, 11:01 AM Reply   
Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are *******s and not all non-believers have a smug superiority complex. Terrorists and *******s come in all shapes, sizes and walks of life.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-20-2015, 11:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
Call me harsh but...

I say NO to accepting refugees from a toxic area of the world such as the middle east. Feed them, clothe them, and house them OVER THERE. And, let them get in line and prove their worth with all the other folks wanting into our country.
I think that is pretty reasonable to be honest
Old    deltahoosier            11-20-2015, 11:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Welcome back, Rod, you were missed. Hope you and the family are doing well.

Have to disagree with you on Christians outing Christians though. Just look at the Duggars and those in their circle. Or the vast circles of conspiracy surrounding decades of clergy sexual abuse.

You're absolutely right that religiosity is a dangerous tool and easily lends itself to radicalization, especially in societies that can't seem to evolve past the 16th century.

Obama's veto is the right move. Obviously vetting is extremely important, but so is accepting the refugees. The governors need to read the constitution, and the house needs to do some thinking about ISIS' goals and how not to play right into them.
Thanks Wes. Doing well. I never really left. I actually read everyday, just did not bother to comment.

I can agree on the Duggars, however I think I can speak for many like minded people that if I knew messed up stuff was happening, I would let someone know. Terror? Much bigger issue.

I don't agree with Obama's stance at all. There is no way to vet those people. How many records do you think exist in Syria especially during a civil war? Their have been three bombings and mass shootings by "vetted" muslim refugees.

I have to look it up but we actually stopped the immigration process for Italians because they had not assimilated.

Last edited by deltahoosier; 11-20-2015 at 11:16 AM. Reason: because I can
Old    deltahoosier            11-20-2015, 11:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
"In an unusual step, the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM) - the main umbrella group for mosque associations - and several of its member groups urged their imams to denounce the attacks in their sermons and distributed suggested texts.
Read more at Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/us-france-shooting-muslims-idUSKCN0T91PU20151120#y9UTd1p8D2JuDF1Y.99"


In an unusual step? Really? At the end of the day, they urged the Imam's to denounce the attacks? Really? The fact they had to say that out loud should scare the crap out of you. Why would they have to urge? Think about that!!!
Old    deltahoosier            11-20-2015, 11:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
This situation is a litmus test for American Christians and they are failing miserably. But don't worry your imaginary God can't really smite you anyway. Come join us seculars and you can reject the refugees without being a hypocrite.
I disagree John. It is being smart and prudent. No one said they hate muslims. It is not smart to let people in who have destroyed their homeland and have proven to kill others.
Old    deltahoosier            11-20-2015, 11:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
Eh, ok. You know you don't have to be Arab to be a Muslim right?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b002d5c0779b9e




Wowzers. I can catalog all the crappy things the bible has used to justify if you like but the point is this is not a Christian good Muslim bad situation.

Clearly you misunderstand my point. The religion is not the problem, if a person acts in a despicable way there is no excuse for it, they must take personal responsibility for it. Religion or no. I thought a "Conservative" would think this way too?

My personal view is all religion is silly but if someone is wired that way then I have no problem with them following it.
I understand Darren, however Hindu's actually are at war with Muslims too in Pakistan.

You can catologue many things in the bible, however most of that may be closely related to Judism now since it was old testament. The parts of the Quran that most people bring out in cases like the hundreds around the world is the modern era of the Quran.

Mohammed created Islam out of violence. Jesus was peaceful. As Mohammed went along in his writings, he actually became more and more violent. He took over Mecca with a 10,000 man army. He allowed them to keep their pagan festival. That is now know as this blood affair known as the Hage (sp?). Most call it the required trip to Mecca. He preached conversion by the sword. It is a primary edict of Islam. The primary way you make it to heaven in Islam is scales of justice and Martyr.

Can you show me a part of the bible that Jesus conquered anyone?

As far as conservative goes, I make it a point to study my history and understand human nature. I understand that proper borders make good neighbors. I know I was kind of tongue in cheek on the Germans in France during WW2. However, under current frame of mind with all the leftists one worlders. Why would the French be angry that the Germans wanted to be in France. If we take it to a relative course of action, the French should have got rid of the Nazi's among them and invited the rest in right?
Old    deltahoosier            11-20-2015, 11:43 AM Reply   
Sorry to continue, When did we invade Mali? Can't say these people are Muslim, however if the hostages can site the Quran, they were set free.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/africa...ing/index.html
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       11-20-2015, 11:54 AM Reply   
How come so much of the argument for islam is only to slam Christianity? Do you have an actual fact based argument or is changing the subject to focus on another religion the only rebuttal.

Islamaphobia is only relevant if people are afraid of them. My take on the sentiment lately is not a phobia, but rather an intolerance. The vast majority of muslims, regardless of where they live now, want the current countries they reside in to bow down to their demands. This is where the intolerant notion towards followers of Islam comes from. When one moves to a country, with expectations of enjoying their freedoms, there are certain expectations that they understand and accept the norms of that country. I personally am extremely intolerant of the hate filled culture that islam brings along with it. They despise western civilization yet they have no problem coming here and enjoying our freedoms. They abuse women like it's a national past time, they bomb schools, and throw acid in the faces of girls trying to obtain an education, but they have the audacity to say they're a religion of peace. Wake up people.

Media, once again distorting truth, by making it sound like a perfectly normal reaction, is now "anti-Muslim" and Islamophobia". So radical Muslims kill innocent people, but we're all supposed to feel guilty if our reaction is to not trust Muslims. Yet, we get it, not all Muslims are radicals, but a reaction that the public does not want our President to bring 10,000 Muslims here and release them into our society is perfectly normal, and that does not mean we have Islamophobia

A few people commit some terrible acts with guns and Obama and the left want to punish all gun owners. Many Islamic animals commit pure acts of terror and you are called a racist bigot for wanting to protect your own country. The left is sick.

All you have to do is look at England and Europe to see where these policies will lead you. It is the left's sickness for diversity, open borders that led to the Paris incident and many more you don't hear about because it goes against the story they like to tell. The immigration of these people into Europe is a disaster period, you don't have to do much research to find that out for yourself.
Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-20-2015, 12:54 PM Reply   
I'm fairly certain Obama isn't going to pull up in a pickup and dump a bunch of Syrians in your backyard. No guarantees, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

This Methodist pastor is also a longtime immigration attorney and he does know a thing or two about the process:

Pastor Scott Hicks
Most of my friends know I practice immmigration law. As such, I have worked with the refugee community for over two decades. This post is long, but if you want actual information about the process, keep reading.

I can not tell you how frustrating it is to see the misinformation and outright lies that are being perpetuated about the refugee process and the Syrian refugees. So, here is a bit of information from the real world of someone who actually works and deals with this issue.

The refugee screening process is multi-layered and is very difficult to get through. Most people languish in temporary camps for months to years while their story is evaluated and checked.

First, you do not get to choose what country you might be resettled into. If you already have family (legal) in a country, that makes it more likely that you will go there to be with family, but other than that it is random. So, you can not simply walk into a refugee camp, show a document, and say, I want to go to America. Instead, the UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees) works with the local authorities to try to take care of basic needs. Once the person/family is registered to receive basic necessities, they can be processed for resettlement. Many people are not interested in resettlement as they hope to return to their country and are hoping that the turmoil they fled will be resolved soon. In fact, most refugees in refugee events never resettle to a third country. Those that do want to resettle have to go through an extensive process.

Resettlement in the U.S. is a long process and takes many steps. The Refugee Admissions Program is jointly administered by the Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration (PRM) in the Department of State, the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and offices within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) within DHS conducts refugee interviews and determines individual eligibility for refugee status in the United States.

We evaluate refugees on a tiered system with three levels of priority.

First Priority are people who have suffered compelling persecution or for whom no other durable solution exists. These individuals are referred to the United States by UNHCR, or they are identified by the U.S. embassy or a non-governmental organization (NGO).

Second priority are groups of “special concern” to the United States. The Department of State determines these groups, with input from USCIS, UNHCR, and designated NGOs. At present, we prioritize certain persons from the former Soviet Union, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Iran, Burma, and Bhutan.

Third priority are relatives of refugees (parents, spouses, and unmarried children under 21) who are already settled in the United States may be admitted as refugees. The U.S.-based relative must file an Affidavit of Relationship (AOR) and must be processed by DHS.

Before being allowed to come to the United States, each refugee must undergo an extensive interviewing, screening, and security clearance process conducted by Regional Refugee Coordinators and overseas Resettlement Support Centers (RSCs). Individuals generally must not already be firmly resettled (a legal term of art that would be a separate article). Just because one falls into the three priorities above does not guarantee admission to the United States.

The Immigration laws require that the individuals prove that they have a “well-founded fear,” (another legal term which would be a book.) This fear must be proved regardless of the person’s country, circumstance, or classification in a priority category. There are multiple interviews and people are challenged on discrepancies. I had a client who was not telling the truth on her age and the agency challenged her on it. Refugees are not simply admitted because they have a well founded fear. They still must show that they are not subject to exclusion under Section 212(a) of the INA. These grounds include serious health matters, moral or criminal matters, as well as security issues. In addition, they can be excluded for such things as polygamy, misrepresentation of facts on visa applications, smuggling, or previous deportations. Under some circumstances, the person may be eligible to have the ground waived.

At this point, a refugee can be conditionally accepted for resettlement. Then, the RSC sends a request for assurance of placement to the United States, and the Refugee Processing Center (RPC) works with private voluntary agencies (VOLAG) to determine where the refugee will live. If the refugee does have family in the U.S., efforts will be made to resettle close to that family.

Every person accepted as a refugee for planned admission to the United States is conditional upon passing a medical examination and passing all security checks. Frankly, there is more screening of refugees than ever happens to get on an airplane. Of course, yes, no system can be 100% foolproof. But if that is your standard, then you better shut down the entire airline industry, close the borders, and stop all international commerce and shipping. Every one of those has been the source of entry of people and are much easier ways to gain access to the U.S. Only upon passing all of these checks (which involve basically every agency of the government involved in terrorist identification) can the person actually be approved to travel.

Before departing, refugees sign a promissory note to repay the United States for their travel costs. This travel loan is an interest-free loan that refugees begin to pay back six months after arriving in the country.

Once the VOLAG is notified of the travel plans, it must arrange for the reception of refugees at the airport and transportation to their housing at their final destination.

This process from start to finish averages 18 to 24 months, but I have seen it take years.

The reality is that about half of the refugees are children, another quarter are elderly. Almost all of the adults are either moms or couples coming with children. Each year the President, in consultation with Congress, determines the numerical ceiling for refugee admissions. For Fiscal Year (FY) 2016, the proposed ceiling is 85,000. We have been averaging about 70,000 a year for the last number of years. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)

Over one-third of all refugee arrivals (35.1 percent, or 24,579) in FY 2015 came from the Near East/South Asia—a region that includes Iraq, Iran, Bhutan, and Afghanistan.
Another third of all refugee arrivals (32.1 percent, or 22,472) in FY 2015 came from Africa.
Over a quarter of all refugee arrivals (26.4 percent, or 18,469) in FY 2015 came from East Asia — a region that includes China, Vietnam, and Indonesia. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)

Finally, the process in Europe is different. I would be much more concerned that terrorists are infiltrating the European system because they are not nearly so extensive and thorough in their process.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-20-2015, 1:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
The immigration of these people into Europe is a disaster period, you don't have to do much research to find that out for yourself.
Exactly. TOXIC.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-20-2015, 1:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
I disagree John. It is being smart and prudent. No one said they hate muslims. It is not smart to let people in who have destroyed their homeland and have proven to kill others.
Who said anything about hate? We aren't talking about hate here. We are talking about people who profess to follow in the footsteps of a man who martyred himself for social justice, compassion and empathy for his fellow man, and to love your enemy. Naturally many Christians have warped that into nothing more than... died to whitewash my sins.

Being a secular that answers to no God it's understandable that I may consider it not worth any risk to reject these people. But when Christians fall to the wrong side of helping them that I do, it's a testament to the depravity of their religious beliefs. Of course there has been mounds of evidence of that depravity all along, but in many cases it could be just written off as confusion spawned by a lack of awareness. But in this case it's a flat out rejection of the fundamental teachings of Jesus. A summary rejection of any risk as a means to turn these people away is indicative of bearing false witness against the man who Christians claim to strive to emulate. Christians are committing character assassination of the man they call their savior when they engage in this sort of behavior.

On top of that now they are now co-oping the plight of homeless vets for their selfish political motives.
Old    deltahoosier            11-20-2015, 1:49 PM Reply   
I think you are missing the point John. No one is saying not to help them, but how do you help them by bring them here? Different culture, different religious make up, different tolerance and so on? How do we help if we make ourselves weaker? I don't see this as a Christian issue. I think it is a smart issue especially since ISIS has said they are trying to infiltrate these countries.

The homelss vet argument? I have not made the argument myself. It is an interesting contrast. Why is everyone breaking their back to bring over (and it is more like 100,000 not 10,000) refuges when there are starving vet or others here in America. I don't think it is co-oping anything. I think it is a rational discussion point.

Polling suggests around 70% of the country either does not want this to happen or not sure if it should. We have had many "youthful" migrants from war torn islamic countries come in to the country. The world trade centers (twice), Boston Marathon bombings, shooting of the military recruiting office, and so on. They just found 8 Syrians with fake passports near Larado Texas trying to cross the border just this week. The French terror attacks had Syrians with fake passports that committed the attacks. On pure politics alone because of Obama's stance, I can see this issue giving the Republicans all three positions of power for some time if one of these "refugees" gets off the chain.

Wes,

I was reading that it can take a couple years to actually be officially turned loose in the US as a refugee. Now, it a refugee wants to get lost and risk their spot in the permanent stay que, they absolutely can. That is much of the issue. I don't know how you vet that many people how typically have no desire to assimulate to the host country and have no records. Especially if it is a random choice. Many times if someone wants to come to America and does all the steps, they usually want to be part of the culture.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-20-2015, 1:56 PM Reply   
I'm not missing the point. It's clear as a bell. Christians are all about claiming their morals are absolute until they are tested. Then they are exposed as moral relativists just like everyone else.

It's co-oping when it wasn't a rational discussion point until it can be used for other purposes.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-20-2015, 2:06 PM Reply   
I'm a Christian and I deeply feel for the plight of displaced people. My ex-in-laws were vietnamese. They fought with the Americans and when Sigon fell, they were evacuated and sponsored to become US citizens. The vetting process to be accepted into the US is lengthy and If you get a green-card/citizenship, you worked hard to get it. Immigrants escaping war/famine/etc, in my personal experience, make great productive Americans.

I am far less fearful of these immigrants than I am of criminals crossing our southern boarder without going through an immigration process.

John, it is not fair to stereotype Christians, even when an individual falls short.

Last edited by skiboarder; 11-20-2015 at 2:08 PM.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-20-2015, 2:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
The homelss vet argument? I have not made the argument myself. It is an interesting contrast. Why is everyone breaking their back to bring over (and it is more like 100,000 not 10,000) refuges when there are starving vet or others here in America. I don't think it is co-oping anything. I think it is a rational discussion point.
Agreed, if there is a limit to the amount of people you can support, helping your own first is a powerful argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
The French terror attacks had Syrians with fake passports that committed the attacks
Are you sure, i thought they were Turkish with fake Syrian passports, which is quite different.
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-20-2015, 3:24 PM Reply   
Vetting is silly. Ask some questions. Say the right answers. Sign on the dotted line. Stamp approved.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-20-2015, 3:27 PM Reply   
"John, it is not fair to stereotype Christians, even when an individual falls short. "

I agree. But we aren't talking about an individual. My daughter and her husband are Christians and live according to their faith. For that they have my respect.

BTW, on the money that we give to Israel every year we could pay every one of those 50K vets $60K a year. I'm guessing we could get them under a roof for way less than that.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-20-2015, 3:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
I
John, it is not fair to stereotype Christians, even when an individual falls short.
Excellent, 100% agree. Equally true of Muslims
Old     (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-20-2015, 4:05 PM Reply   
For those who want to help all of those poor people in the world...

Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-21-2015, 5:08 AM Reply   
Nice segue from war refugees to the poor.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-21-2015, 5:39 AM Reply   
The US should be doing more to help people in this country. If Europe wants to open its borders to refugees, so be it. And this writer makes some good points, especially about assimilation. We are already some 18 trillion dollars in debt, so this is not the time to be adding more people to the payroll. http://nypost.com/2015/11/20/spare-u...-mr-president/
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-21-2015, 12:56 PM Reply   
I've got bigger things to bitch about. It almost 4pm and Masters hasn't even hit the water yet.

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