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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-02-2015, 2:44 PM Reply   
What a joke, Hollywood Elite's just wasting water for their lavish lawns during Californians worst recorded drought. It's not doubt that the ALL the Kardashians are on the list to me that's just how they come across. But what about the all the others on the list?

And what's even more of a joke is they fined a few of them a whopping $100 BIG DEAL! the whole attitude that they deserve this great big water wasting lawn while you and me don't. Just bugs me we cut our water usage by over 1/2. 66% to be exact yet these people are business as usual

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvxK...ature=youtu.be
Old     (seth)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-02-2015, 2:48 PM Reply   
Dude haven't you heard that Godzilla El Nino is on the way!?!? Time to wash off that sidewalk!
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-02-2015, 3:10 PM Reply   
My lawn is greener than your medical marijuana. Sprinklers run for like an hour every night.
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-02-2015, 3:22 PM Reply   
Wat he said ^^
My neighbors hate it. But yolo, I pay the bill, drive your Prius or tesla and worry bout yo damn self.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-02-2015, 3:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
My lawn is greener than your medical marijuana. Sprinklers run for like an hour every night.
Sorry I don't get it? Are you saying You choose to water your lawn while other choose to water their medical marijuana?

Water usage is water Usage. As long as your doing what ever to save that's great. And if you choose to be a extreme water waster like the Hollywood elite then your a Delta Bravo IMO but to each his own.

My friend has a nice green lawn. He has a 500 Gallon plastic water tank in his trailer/ He makes like 8 trips a week to the local reclaimed water station to fill up with re claimed water for free and feed his lawn. He says his neighbors have all questioned him. (Hey why does your lawn look so nice) thinking he is using more then he should.
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-02-2015, 3:55 PM Reply   
My water bill is about $110-130 every 2 months. So take from that what you may. I guarantee I'm on par with the neighborhood I live in, being that I have a 5 bed 3 bath house that is lived in only me me and my girlfriend. So I'm not doing dishes, laundry, or showering for the capacity of my house. I water my lawn instead lol
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-02-2015, 5:21 PM Reply   
What I'm saying is that you must be smoking the chronic with your outrage over the rich and famous watering lawns. You really think they are the problem or just a target for the jealous. CA with all those environmentalists driving Prius's and banning everything produces the most pollution in the nation. Ironic isn't it.

I water my lawn, pay my bill and feel zero guilt. You can only shame those that allow it.

And I do care about the environment. I recycle a huge bin of beer cans and Amazon boxes every other week.

How about an update on the GEM car instead of the garbage you have been posting lately.... Loved your older material...
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-02-2015, 5:24 PM Reply   
^^ I'm with him. I feel zero guilt, especially when the pot farmers are fat happy and pissing away eponential amounts of what I use to water my lawn. I live in a nice neighborhood, pay a LOT of taxes, **** it I'm going to have green grass and drive a big diesel truck. That's the great thing about America. And the more pissed off and offended people get, the more I enjoy it hahahah
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-02-2015, 5:27 PM Reply   
Same with me. My water bill is like $60 unless it's june-august
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-02-2015, 5:35 PM Reply   
Yep, less than $100 for 2 months in the winter and $100-130 in the summer.

G, I bet the golf course you play on is green. But that's different right...
Old     (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       09-02-2015, 5:35 PM Reply   
Thats what sucks. We have more rain and standing water than we know what to with. Lakes are all at flood point.
My water bill is 200 a month without irrigation!

Then again I don't have state income tax so I guess Ill shut up.
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-02-2015, 5:53 PM Reply   
Customer of mine has lowered their usage by 57%, bill was only $7 less. Hmm
85% of my water bill is fixed charges anyway. Damn crooks want to charge me for the utilities but don't want me to use them? No thanks.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       09-03-2015, 7:58 AM Reply   
I am in the same boat as Baitkiller. My water bill is always 200 bucks and we have had a monsoon summer. Complete BS.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-03-2015, 12:02 PM Reply   
CableDog: Your in Washington right? So I don't know if YOU watering your lawn or YOUR water usage has anything to do the drought here in Ca. IMO if the Aera you live in is Flush with water they by all means go for it. What I was protesting to was people like Barbra Streisand who is a pretty outspoken Environmentalist not practicing what she preaches. And the Hollywood elite that don't feel like they have to live by the same morel code as the rest of us. Sort of the "You go ahead and conserve do your part: Ill just pay the fine if and when it ever comes. (let them all eat cake)

Cable for the Record: I don't smoke anything never have (maybe a stereo Amp or 2 once in a while and I don't play or Like golf.
Old     (King12)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-03-2015, 12:15 PM Reply   
^ agreed on lots of points. Will add however that groundwater and visible water are very different things, the effect and chain reaction can travel thousands of miles. For instance playa lakes that recharge the ogallala aquifer. 99 percent are on private land and 70% have been altered. That aquifer is vital to agriculture in the United States, and is dropping like a damn rock. Your doing what you want on your land because it only affects you is super cool in principal. Unfortunately it NEVER only affects you on a larger scale. It takes a long time to replenish water below the surface, just because things look pretty on the top doesn't mean it looks that way below.

100% agree on the practice what you preach BS. You want to talk like you care about the world then damn it grow up and do something
Old     (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       09-06-2015, 6:50 AM Reply   
I just got my second watering violation last week. They added $100 to my bill for watering on the wrong day. The city workers drive around our neighborhood day and night searching for people to cite it's crazy. CA is crazy right now but it is what it is, I'm not letting my lawn die, but I'm not necessarily preaching water conservation either because I truly think it'll all come back around. Already talks of a monster El Nino this next winter, the only fear I would have is how much the ground level has compressed due to lack of water and how much water it will actually retain if we do get a monster winter.
Old     (jhartt3)      Join Date: Jan 2012       09-06-2015, 3:34 PM Reply   
I'd put everyone on her watering their lawns in a state that's in drought in the moron category. What would be really nice is to cut you fn state off from the other states that feed you fresh water and watch you all die from lack of water.
Old     (jhartt3)      Join Date: Jan 2012       09-06-2015, 3:40 PM Reply   
Get Powell and Mead back up to normal levels. I'm all for CA rationing water to you idiots. Do you want a green lawn out do you want to drink a glass of water today
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-06-2015, 4:07 PM Reply   
I have to admit about 5-8 years ago I used to have a lawn and I was a Zombie just like the rest of the people that I see that are slaves to their lawn. IMO my lawn was like a pet project. You have to cut it & water & fertilize it trim and weed it airate it. And then you have to have a shed full of equipment to maintain it. Lawnmower and trimmer ect. The bags of chemicals that you use to treat your lawn as well. For me I never used my lawn it was just some sort of curb appeal.

Once I ripped out my lawn and did the synthetic lawn along with shrubs and low water plants suddenly you realize how much time of your life you wasted tending to this stupid lawn and garden. I mean if you have nothing better to do or you don't mind spending $200 a month for a Gardner and the extra water it uses then fine.

I have to admit now when I see a big green lawn I do chuckle and say yup I remember those days.
Old     (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       09-06-2015, 5:19 PM Reply   
Lol I love when people who don't live in CA try and chime in and use words like morons or idiots towards people that they don't know, don't know their story, and surely don't know many of the water issues currently going on in CA. Just because somebody waters their lawn during a drought in CA does not make them a moron or an idiot and I can assure you that me watering my small lawn in Central CA is not impacting Lake Powell in AZ. Not significantly by any means at all. Also keep in mind that not everyone is a homeowner and has the free will to rip out their lawn. I myself rent and have a signed lease to abide by which includes "maintaining the lawn". Under these circumstances it is my duty to preserve my lawn. I do agree there is a line between reason and abuse and I think grants original point was very valid and applied more towards abuse, but saying you'd put everyone in a moron category for watering their lawn in a drought is unnecessary and pretty immature for somebody of your age. Just being honest, not trying to be disrespectful at all.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-06-2015, 10:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Jmorland ; it I'm going to have green grass and drive a big diesel truck. That's the great thing about America. And the more pissed off and offended people get, the more I enjoy it hahahah
J I bet you have a big set of plastic bull balls proudly displayed behind your Coal Burner
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-06-2015, 11:11 PM Reply   
And please while we have some hillBilly's here please explain to me how driving a Prius is some sort of badge of shame??? I mean I make fun of big lifted trucks all the time because 99.9% of the time they are doing the exact opasate of what they were designed to do. (Driving down the road with 1 guy in it not pulling anything)
I see it like using a wrecking ball to drive a nail into a board. Complet misuse of a tool to make some dude feel good about him self. And then You lift them up and chrome out the running gear? To what? make they guys at "Cooters Garage" impressed? The way I see it a Prius driving down the highway is a tool being used in the exact way it was designed. And the lifted 4x4 guys driving down the road hauling or pulling nothing are the guys that' some how think they are "cool" and some sort of "Counter Culture" icons.

Reality check! Your the idiot watering your lawn in the middle of a water shortage.

Last edited by grant_west; 09-06-2015 at 11:13 PM.
Old     (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       09-07-2015, 5:18 AM Reply   
My city has actually outlawed zero-scape as well as synthetic lawns. I live on a 4X6 mile island that calls itself a city and acts as autonomously as an HOA. Frustrating to say the least. A few years back a local businessman put in a state of the art high dollar synthetic lawn. This thing looked and felt perfect. Its exactly like the synth terf I see on the high end football fields. The city threw a fit and started fining him daily to remove it. I forgot to mention the business this guy does is house painting. After puling out the lawn he let it go to dirt and weeds and then painted the whole (large) house in 3 and 4 foot circles all in primary colors. Looked like a calliapi (sp?) in a weed field. Loved it. As a guy with a 200$ water bill who just bought a 300$ lawnmower and spent 200$ on mulch and 4 hours on Saturday I would welcome a lesser maintenance option.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-07-2015, 7:43 AM Reply   
Lawns suck! Get a patio.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-07-2015, 9:31 AM Reply   
The one exception I think is. If you have kids and they need and use a grass place to play it's great to have a nice grass play area. A friend that has kids and a large backyard grass play area decided before he installed a lawn he would drill for a well and draw water from below. I thought this was a good alternative. Grass has its place,and time, it would be un reasonable and totally cost prohibitive to install a HUGE syenthitc lawn, Maby after his kids go away to school the lawn will go by by but for now they make great use of it.

But if you think about the Thousands of Homes that have a big green lawn in front that never gets any use all over california the water usage adds up. I saw a few months ago they were exploring a new law here in california that would make homes that were going up for sale here in california have them take out the fireplace (spare the air) and take out the lawn before they could sell the home?
Old     (newty)      Join Date: May 2005       09-08-2015, 9:29 AM Reply   
Attached Images
 

Last edited by newty; 09-08-2015 at 9:32 AM.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-08-2015, 10:26 AM Reply   
^^^^LOL^^^^
That totally explains it, if a Prius is a Vagina then the big Lifted truck must be a Dong! . Dude's that rock the big lifted trucks must feel more comfortable riding a DONG!
Old     (snyder)      Join Date: Feb 2006       09-08-2015, 10:54 AM Reply   
Grant, do you equally hold contempt for the guys in the 600+ HP hyper cars that can't go over 40mph due to traffic? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, no. no you don't. You're "redneck-aphobic" lol.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-08-2015, 11:43 AM Reply   
Snyder; touché.

Now to qualify your question, if I saw a Hyper Car rolling down the road with the Confederate Flag Flying and It had Smoke Stacks "burning Coal" & a pair of Truck Nuts hanging from the bumper then Yes "Equal" if not more Contempt.

I have to admit I am a Rasist AGAINST rednecks! I could do with out the "Wisky Tango's"
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-08-2015, 11:54 AM Reply   
Not really relevant here, but what do you tow your boat with grant? A tesla?
Old     (King12)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-08-2015, 12:04 PM Reply   
Agreed on the truck thing 100% grant. Nothing pisses me off like a pavement princess. Especially one wasting fuel. Take that extra fuel, let it be used by someone with a real work truck or tractor to feed your pretty ass and sit down. All these people spending obscene $ on city trucks driving the price up for people that need them.

I also don't like hyper cars, pointless to me. You could modify a corvette/ used viper/ Camaro whatever to do way more for less and usually those people actually use their car for something. (Drag,autocross, etc) leave the guy with a Prius alone, he's saving a ton of money, is in something safe, and is doing something for the world at the same time. Nothing about that says he needs to be covered with smoke(which is insanely dangerous while driving by the way..)

Maybe I'll start carrying a fire extinguisher and try to blind every truck I see rolling coal from now on, that would be hilarious wouldn't it!
Old     (snyder)      Join Date: Feb 2006       09-08-2015, 12:16 PM Reply   
Here ya go Grant. Hate away.
Attached Images
 
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-08-2015, 1:20 PM Reply   
J: I have a bone stock 2008 Chevy 2WD.( it's a retired shop truck) we took the Shop Forman out of a Truck and put his ass in a Prius!!!! LOL you should have heard him bitch about that LOL. The truck became my "tow vehicle" with over 100k on it. It say's parked at the lake house and go's up and down the launch ramp and to the Dumps' that's about as much action as my truck Gets. All other activity is covered by either my GEM car or the Prius. I save as much gas as I can all week doing my mindless commute and to the lake and work driving so I can waste it on the weekend!

I used to be the Idiot driving the 3/4 Ton Escalade by my self to and from work and job sights and to the lake to impress who? I burned threw at least $600 in gas a month just driving that pig. Yes it was plush but again "total waste of resources" and the wrong tool for the job. Now I can drive to the lake and back (252 miles round trip) with about 5 gallons of gas.

The real shocker comes each time I have to fill the Truck. It hardly gets any action and cost almost $90 to fill I look at the pump and I'm like WTH this thing has hardly gone anywhere and it needs $90 in gas that will feed the Prius for almost a month!
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-08-2015, 2:13 PM Reply   
I drive an f350 on 37s for my daily driver. Sorry grant
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-08-2015, 2:45 PM Reply   
J; your free to drive what ever you like as your daily driver. And we are all free to make fun of you
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-09-2015, 3:10 PM Reply   
Lots of action on this thread over the weekend. I was on my boat... riding... Burned about 200 gallons of premium fossil fuel.
Old     (Cabledog)      Join Date: Dec 2013       09-09-2015, 3:11 PM Reply   
Here's a thought. How about if CA got rid of all those illegal's? You could leave your hose running all night just for fun and still have extra water... Eastern WA is the same way though. But I guess someone has to mow my green lawn.
Old     (King12)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-09-2015, 4:13 PM Reply   
Wut.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       09-10-2015, 12:52 PM Reply   
I would totally drive the crap out of that Lambo.

I don't have anything against Prius'. Its just the ****tards that drive them. I swear every time someone is holding up the left lane you finally get to the front and sure enough....
Old     (King12)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-10-2015, 12:55 PM Reply   
Holy confirmation bias batman.
Old     (King12)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-10-2015, 12:56 PM Reply   
http://youtu.be/rArpyMXT2ew

Only people that are impressed by your lambo are other bros dude
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       09-10-2015, 1:43 PM Reply   
I don't have a lambo "dude"

Nor do I have a big truck with stacks.
Old     (King12)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-10-2015, 2:23 PM Reply   
I wasn't actually meaning "you"
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-11-2015, 5:26 AM Reply   
You guys aren't the first to identify the tragedy of the commons. In a nutshell the concept is that when you rely on people to do the right thing, even if many people do do the right thing a few DBs will ruin it for everybody.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-11-2015, 6:12 AM Reply   
Problem is price controls and essentially government run subsidized water distribution. When there is a shortage of supply, prices would naturally rise in a free market and water usage would be reduced. Would rich people pay 5x, 10x, 50x as much to have a green lawn? Maybe, but if that's what the market will bear then so be it. Central planning has always failed throughout history. Price controls tend to end in disaster.


"A large part of California’s water problem has economic roots. Whenever there’s a shortage of anything — whether it’s water or seats at a baseball stadium — our first suspicion should be that the price is too low. California agriculture consumes about 80 percent of the state’s delivered water, and it has been exempted from many of California’s new restrictions. On top of that, agricultural water users pay a much lower price than residential users. In other words, California’s farmers are being heavily subsidized.
...
Western water is mostly controlled by the U.S. Congress and its Bureau of Reclamation. Through lobbying efforts, the Bureau of Reclamation is controlled by growers and other special interests. Water is distributed in California and other Western states not by market prices but by the political process. Agricultural interests have disproportionate political power. That means that agricultural interests receive taxpayer-financed handouts.

California farmers argue that without federal and state government subsidies, crops could not be grown in desert areas. That’s a foolish, self-serving argument. If I were an Alaskan wanting to use government subsidies to build hothouses to grow navel oranges, I could use the same argument: Without government subsidies, I couldn’t grow navel oranges in Alaska."

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/04/...die-of-thirst/
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-11-2015, 8:13 AM Reply   
LOL I know right? Who needs to use water to grow FOOD TO EAT when there are rich people out there willing to pay for a green lawn and a big swimming pool? Sheesh you'd think this site was being taken over by communists!
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-11-2015, 12:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
California agriculture consumes about 80 percent of the state’s delivered water,
I would like to see where this 80% number comes from. And I'll just say it right now that number is BS ! I have been following water usage and where it gos and who is using it pretty closely because recently our lake was in danger of being drained for get this NOT food or Agraculture but for FISH.
That's right. Our county of Touloumne uses 17.000 cubic acher feet of water PER YEAR for Residential and Agacutural combined.

The federal government was telling our irrigation officials to let down 174.000 cubic acher feet of water for "Fish Flows" that's 7 times the amount of water the whole county uses in 1 year to be let down for the benifitt of fish for 2 months.

Our irrigation districts told Washington to "go pound sand" thank god! Some one has a brain. It's like the Feds were or are trying to speed up the drought.
Old     (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-11-2015, 12:45 PM Reply   
Well, they already want to get everyone on their payroll, so if they can control your money, and your water rations. Guess what
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-14-2015, 4:01 PM Reply   
Grant, not sure the source. Suggest checking other places Walter Williams my have published that article. I've seen numbers around 80% mentioned in other articles from other sources as well. Not sure the actual percent but I'd imagine it's significant. Quick google search of "california water usage agriculture" turns up many links and images linking to various sources claiming 60%-80% agricultural usage. First link I saw was to a 2009 UCLA study. http://www.environment.ucla.edu/repo...ticle4870.html.

That report claims 77%, though that number may have changed in 6 years. While I don't doubt your knowledge and familiarity with your local reservoir usage, CA is a big state and I'd presume there are many reservoirs and water sources, and usage on various categories will vary significantly depending on region. Regardless of 80%, 8%, or any other usage on agriculture, eliminating price controls would reduce water consumption in a drought and encourage a correction to allocate water to the most beneficial and valuable uses.
Old     (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-14-2015, 5:42 PM Reply   
Here's a good article on water/food:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_5952862.html

"Beer at 296 gallons of water per gallon of beer. It takes 872 gallons of water to produce 1 gallon of wine. But if you look at standard servings of each, the race gets closer with about 28 gallons of water needed for 12 fluid ounces of beer and 34 gallons of water needed for 5 fluid ounces of wine."

So stop drinking wine and start drinking a lot more beer. Oh, and stop drinking milk - I just read in a National Geographic that it takes over 1000 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of milk.


Also, we need to kill all the cows in CA:
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animal...e-environment/
Old     (shane97210)      Join Date: Jan 2007       09-15-2015, 8:04 AM Reply   
I'm really biased against idiots that can't spell, or seem to grasp the English language. While "balls hanging from a lifted oil burner" is whiskey tango, poor command of our official language is just as WT. If not more WT. I just don't feel the need to make fun of someone for their lack of education, music taste, or choice of vehicle.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-15-2015, 9:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
Grant, not sure the source. Suggest checking other places Walter Williams my have published that article. I've seen numbers around 80% mentioned in other articles from other sources as well. Not sure the actual percent but I'd imagine it's significant. Quick google search of "california water usage agriculture" turns up many links and images linking to various sources claiming 60%-80% agricultural usage. First link I saw was to a 2009 UCLA study. http://www.environment.ucla.edu/repo...ticle4870.html.

That report claims 77%, though that number may have changed in 6 years. While I don't doubt your knowledge and familiarity with your local reservoir usage, CA is a big state and I'd presume there are many reservoirs and water sources, and usage on various categories will vary significantly depending on region. Regardless of 80%, 8%, or any other usage on agriculture, eliminating price controls would reduce water consumption in a drought and encourage a correction to allocate water to the most beneficial and valuable uses.
Cory till you understand CA water as a whole, you can't really make these statements. In CA most of the state is basically a desert. There is a big wall (sierras) that catch moisture coming in during the winter months in the form of snowpack. Usually there are 10-15 storms a winter at best. That snowpack melts and the water rushes back down the mountains to the sea. Almost never rains at all in the summer, and when it does it isn't meaningful (enough to get your car dirty is all). Los Angeles is (and has been for nearly a century) watered by importing water from hundreds of miles away.

The "local reservoirs" would not exist, period, if not for the Bureau of Reclamation. Those reservoirs were built with a purpose (water storage for ag), with a secondary purpose of flood control (mostly for ag). There is no "free market" in water. It has been, is, and will be controlled by state and federal governments in CA. There's no unallocated water left, so the dream of a privately funded reservoir that can sell expensive water to rich people for their lawns will never come to fruition.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-15-2015, 11:29 AM Reply   
Here in Ca they have to change the way they charge for residential water usage if they want home owners to save water.
Example: I can use 1 gallon or 10.000 and my monthly water bill is still the same. If I use 10,000 and 1 gallon then my water bill jumps up to the next price level. I think most home owners use as much water as they can and NOT what they need. I bet if they started charging per gallon we would see people cutting back
Old     (fish6942)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-15-2015, 12:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
... Your the idiot ...
Irony anyone?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-15-2015, 4:16 PM Reply   
Bad spelling "guilty"

What kind of lifted trucks do you guys have? LOL
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-16-2015, 9:54 AM Reply   
As both Shawn and Grant seem to have conceded is that there is no free market and hence no free market pricing. There are price controls, which in the case of artificially low prices encourage increased consumption or at the very least frivolous consumption when there are shortages.

Shawn, if government did not have a monopoly on water which it enforced with the threat of violence, alternative and more efficient solutions would exist to allocate water more efficiently. Some reservoirs on the east coast are owned by private companies such as power companies. I don't live near any but from what I've read there is far less rapid and dramatic variability of water level than government owned and operated reservoirs as there is an obligation to maintain the lake as usable for residents whereas government can simply do what it wants with little or no repercussions. Not sure the details but I'm curious to learn more. There are droughts but the east coast is not a desert and typically gets significant rain, so that surely makes it easier.

Interesting reading on the Australian water market. I know nothing about this, just found it and skimmed a bit but it sounds like a far more free market than in CA. Any Aussies that can comment on how it works?

http://archive.nwc.gov.au/__data/ass...rt-history.pdf
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-16-2015, 12:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
As both Shawn and Grant seem to have conceded is that there is no free market and hence no free market pricing. There are price controls, which in the case of artificially low prices encourage increased consumption or at the very least frivolous consumption when there are shortages.

Shawn, if government did not have a monopoly on water which it enforced with the threat of violence, alternative and more efficient solutions would exist to allocate water more efficiently. Some reservoirs on the east coast are owned by private companies such as power companies. I don't live near any but from what I've read there is far less rapid and dramatic variability of water level than government owned and operated reservoirs as there is an obligation to maintain the lake as usable for residents whereas government can simply do what it wants with little or no repercussions. Not sure the details but I'm curious to learn more. There are droughts but the east coast is not a desert and typically gets significant rain, so that surely makes it easier.

Interesting reading on the Australian water market. I know nothing about this, just found it and skimmed a bit but it sounds like a far more free market than in CA. Any Aussies that can comment on how it works?

http://archive.nwc.gov.au/__data/ass...rt-history.pdf
Cory -- with many many many exceptions, carve outs, caveats, and qualifications, water in the west is on the "prior appropriation" system. Think of it like the kid on the swing on the playground. He gets to keep swinging till he quits, and in some cases he can pass his turn to someone else. But if nobody is on the swing it's fair game. Water law was developed by illiterate farmers and miners in the 1800s, and it's basically all about being first, with a requirement that the water continue to be put to a beneficial use (recreation FWIW is generally NOT a beneficial use).

So if you are on a river (there are very few natural lakes in the west), and are drawing water, you get priority by the year you or your predecessors first drew water. First in time first in right. So in drought years, you can understand that older rights are more valuable that newer rights because the draw of water is based on priority. If you have the oldest rights, you get water first, before the newer rights. Sometimes it's all gone by the time you get to the newer rights.

Water rights are freely tradeable, but they can also be sold to and owned by the government.

I'm going to plead ignorance about how the CVP was set up, but my guess is that when the feds came in at the request of the current water rights holders (who would've been farmers) the feds required the farmers to contribute their rights to the fed project to get a share of water under the new allocation regime. Then the feds spent tons of money to build dams, reservoirs, flood control projects and water distribution canals and aquaducts to disburse the water.

So really it's not like this was some sort of government take. But many have chosen to sell to the govt over the years and years intervening.

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