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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-13-2008, 7:28 PM Reply   
Well after smoking like 3 alternators and running almost all of last year with out a alternator Cesear decided to get a real charging system in his Super Air. We decided to copy the system in my Air. A Balmar 97-210 it's a 210 amp alternator with dual pully's. He had to have new custom aluminum pullys made that had a extra belt V to make the new alt work. The alternator will be regulated by Balmars digital Max Charge regulator.
He also got the alternator temp probe that shuts down the alternator threw the regulator if things get to hot. This exact system has been working perfict in my boat for almost 3 years now. Here are some pick's
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Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-13-2008, 7:31 PM Reply   
What was the root cause of the previous alt failures?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-13-2008, 7:41 PM Reply   
Cesear has a large battery bank. If you sit for to long and beat down your batterys when its time to start up your alternator will try to recharge the loss in your battery bank. The larger the bank the larger the load that the alternator has to re charge. Most alternators can and will blow them self's up trying to recharge a large battery bank thats been beat down.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-13-2008, 7:52 PM Reply   
If the load is that big and the battery bank is that big, you/he may want to consider making the "house" bank a stand-alone bank not charged off the alt, but recharged from a tender/charger at the end of the day. Alternators are not really designed to recharge dead batteries, but replenish the loss of voltage used during start up, and provide enough amps to keep up with current draw of the usual electronics. $.02

Looks like a nice upgrade though.
Old     (tanner)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-13-2008, 8:16 PM Reply   
Do I see flashbacks from 06' "G" ??? .... LOL.

Mike,

Grant's system has a regulator in it that makes it a sort of "smart charger"
Old     (tanner)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-13-2008, 8:17 PM Reply   
Grant,

Whats this system up to now seeing how prices on things have skyrocketed.... $5K??
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-13-2008, 8:32 PM Reply   
Mike: The ghetto way to do what your talking about is use a Perko switch. You can split the battery bank. Example you have 10 batterys you can split the bank's Bank A (5 batterys) and bank B (the other 5 batterys). You stop and play with the Perko switch in the Both position and then when you start up you switch the perko to side A or B so your only charging 5 batterys at a time. This is pretty ghetto. Its only a matter of time before you make the mistake of trying to start your boat with bank A and bank B connected. Trust me this is the way to do it.
Tanner: Im not sure Cesear bought all the Balmar stuff and brought it to me. I know the pullys were like $800. But yea you could drop 3K no problem.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-13-2008, 8:36 PM Reply   
Yeah, I know how an alternator works. In this case, it's being ask to do something it's not designed to do. Unfortunately, they are not smart enough, and will work thier @$$es off trying to recharge a bank of batteries. $.02
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-13-2008, 8:43 PM Reply   
G,

I'm not talking ghetto, Im talking about designing a bank of batteries to give you the play time you want based on current draw, that is not, in any way, connected to the charging system. No need for a Perko type switch that one might forget to switch.

At the end of the day/weekend, plug up the onboard tender/charger to recharge the batteries, which is what they are designed to do.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-13-2008, 8:52 PM Reply   
Ummm So how long do you think this system "that is not, in any way, connected Battery bank" could or would last with out getting some power put back into it?

yea thats a great solution to the problem. Dont waste your money on a alternator system that can actually charge your batterys back, Just disconect the battery's from your alternator. How would that work? I can see it now we are all partying having a good time. I look down at the Voltmeter and see 11 volts. You then say Sorry everyone we have to stop rocking it and shut it down and I have to go home and charge my batterys sorry brother thats not how we roll.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-13-2008, 9:01 PM Reply   
I think the lines of communication are getting crossed either that or I'm reading arguments to stuff I don't see. "what I thought we were in the trust tree. Are we not in the trust tree?"
Old     (tanner)      Join Date: Oct 2005       05-13-2008, 9:05 PM Reply   
Mike,

I'm not sure if you missed my post but Grants system is a "smart system". With the temp sensor and regulator "G"'s system works very close to the Zantrex true chargers me and you use. It doesn't get the last bit of trickle charge though.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-13-2008, 9:12 PM Reply   
We will just agree that we have different solutions to the same problem, nothing wrong with that.

(Message edited by chpthril on May 13, 2008)
Old     (super_air)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-13-2008, 9:49 PM Reply   
Tanner- Whole cost of the system is right around
$2500 give or take a few $$$.

Tige Mike - These Balmar alternators are designed to do just that bring house banks back up to voltage by smart charging them so you don't burn up alternators, most applications are done on Yachts this way and that is right from the engineers at Balmar, I consulted with them first before making my purchase as well as seeing Grant's work for myself. You are right it might not be the only direction to go but for what I want to do it is a working set up. It is not the only way I will bring the batteries back up I also have a built in charger from Stinger that I just plug into at night when I come in off the water or leave on during the week before going out.

Here is my Battery bank, not your average cache of batteries.
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Old     (macrogpx2)      Join Date: Dec 2005       05-13-2008, 10:55 PM Reply   
Who needs ballast? haha that is great and Grant, that alternator is serious business!
Old     (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       05-13-2008, 11:41 PM Reply   
I ran my system 6-8 hours a day at 85% volume for 3 days last Memorial day without them showing any loss of performance. All the stereo equipment besides the HU is run completely separate from the boats charging system. Those 4 batteries cost me $700 and will likely stay with the boat when I sell it, thus I couldn't justify such a nice setup. It is uber BTW. Thus I think a case for both methods can be made.

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Old     (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       05-13-2008, 11:58 PM Reply   
One solution to the same problem. Charge the batteries while running a boat, they're supposed to be self sustaining that way. Grant figured it out for us comp boat guys. At least, until he goes bigger. Thanks Grant.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-14-2008, 7:03 AM Reply   
Matt: 6-8 Hrs a day at 85% volume for 3 Day's. Humm?
I guess if you were powering 4 6x9's and a 10" sub this is possable. You have 4 golf cart batterys. That looks like 510 amp hrs to me. Cesar's boat has
9 optimas, and that's 495 Amp hrs so your battery banks are pretty close in size. His boat at 85% volume will last 2-3 hr's at most. Keep in mind he's pushing close to 5000 watts and 3 -12 W7's.

Depending on your draw(What your pushing)your play time will vary. Golf carts are a good cheep soultion to what your trying to do. I have know'n a few people that have gone that route. Large golf cart battery bank disconected from the boats charging system yes its a ok way to do it. Down side is Your addicted to the battery charger constantly looking for a outlet if you camp or go on houseboat trip's have fun.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       05-14-2008, 9:13 AM Reply   
Very nice "G" and CAR.

It is nice to actually see someone spend some money to make sure their charging system is sufficient. It is amazing to me that these people buy 80k boats and put 10k into the stereo and whine about spending more than a couple hundred bucks on the alternator and charging system.

That battery bank layout is awesome.
Old     (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       05-14-2008, 10:12 AM Reply   
So 4 golf cart batteries equals 9 optimas?!
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-14-2008, 10:22 AM Reply   
J: There are 2 diffrent sizes of Optimas 1 is a 55 amp hrs and the larger Optima is like 77 amp hrs. A Trojan or US2200 6 volt golf cart battery when linked with another 6 volt US2200 is 255 Amp hrs. That 2 6 volt golf carts hooked together to make 12 volts will get you 255 amp hrs.
4 smaller Optimas= 220 Amp hrs, There are lots of diffent sized golf cart batterys that are either larger or smaller in size and amp hrs, I was using the US 2200 (the most common golf cart battery) as a example. You can get some golf cart batterys that are over 1000 amp hrs
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-14-2008, 1:21 PM Reply   
Ok Im finished:

O AGW power and ground. They bolt directly to the alternator and then to the battery bank. The alternator has some big o lug's
The Blue Box is the MC-612 Digital Smart regulator. This thing is pretty cool. It has like 10 diffrent charge programs you can set it to Smart charge up to like 10 diffrent battery types. The digital display read's "Opts" for Optima. Pretty cool. It has a built in Volt meter right on it. It will also tell you what part of the Smart charge program its in as its runing. We will fake a lake it tonight and see how she charge's.Upload
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Old     (azwakekid)      Join Date: Apr 2005       05-14-2008, 2:04 PM Reply   
that is some huge wire. and a very cool charging system.
Old     (seaswirlmike)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-15-2008, 12:34 PM Reply   
G or CAR: this is an honest question not intended to slam at all. it seems like the major cost in the whole balmar system would be their 'smart regulators' with the temp shut off and the added cost of the custom pullys? I can't imagen there is anything to special about the 210 amp alternater or am I wrong there too? just curious.
mike
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       05-15-2008, 12:54 PM Reply   
A single belt will not turn the balmar alt. These are not the cheap china garbage 140 amp alt's, these are the real deal.
Old     (seaswirlmike)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-15-2008, 2:48 PM Reply   
by no means did i say they were cheap garbage, i guess i just didnt think that their stators/windings/brushes could be so much different then a regular alt. i assumed the extra $$ was for the eletronic side of it. also if the bread and butter is in the MC-612 Digital Smart regulator and you already had an aftermarket alt. could you adapt the smart regulator to your alt.??

(Message edited by seaswirlmike on May 15, 2008)
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-15-2008, 3:04 PM Reply   
Rodney: Yea thats O-AWG power and ground. I'm sure it's overkill but I would rather be safe than sorry. I used the same AGW on my boat and it has been trouble free so that what this boat got.
Mike: I guess if you could work a Balmar smart regulator and temp sensor into any alternator.
Most alternators are internally regulated. So alternators that have internal regulators would have to be re-wired so that the Smart regulator now does all regulation. Some alternators have external regulation. I think would be easier to add on a Smart regulator either way Yea Iím pretty sure you could do what your saying.

Iím sorry if I came off like I was slamming on people way of doing things. There is always a different way of doing things. I respect that.

The advice I give on this subject is from Real Life experience. I have been playing with these things for a few years now. I am in no way an expert. But I seem to know a bit more about charging systems than 99% of stereo shop's out there. WHY? Because I don't assume I know anything. Everything I know about charging systems I learned from Balmar. They have been doing this type of stuff for years the customer support is awesome. I have passed on what I learned from them and the system's I have built to you. So take it for what thatís worth. Iím not bragging. My large charging system has been working perfect for more than 2 years now. Its not because Iím some genius. It's because what I was told and bought works the way they said it should.

Now if someone out there has built big charging systems and has real HANDS on Experience with this type of thing (In board's and Stereo related Charging systems/Large battery bank's) please speak up. I would love to talk here in a forum with you about what you know. We can all learn from each other. I am more than happy to share what little I know with anyone.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       05-15-2008, 3:14 PM Reply   
There is a significant difference between the commercial Balmar alternators that Grant/Ceasar are using versus standard automotive deravitives. It's the duty cycle. The Balmar is happy pulling torque off the motor and delivering current to the batteries all day long. Even the larger automotive alternators are not designed to run more than 50 amps or so for long periods of time.

I chose a different route with my system. I designed the audio system to work within the boundaries of my stock PCM 100 amp charging system. This involved some compromises with amplifier choices and the level of bass my boat delivers.

Grant and Ceasar don't like compromises, they have made the investment in a system that won't let them down once the party starts rocking.
Old     (seaswirlmike)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-15-2008, 3:14 PM Reply   
well then I guess I should give balmar a call and see what they think. btw I enjoy reading and soaking up every bit of knowledge that comes from everyone on here. your very right about stereo shops most of them are a joke they just tell you "you need a bigger alt" end of story. you can't just slap a 200amp alt in there and expect it to charge your 8 batteries through your stock 8 or 10 gague wire with nothing else.
Old     (wikd281)      Join Date: May 2002       05-15-2008, 3:32 PM Reply   
Nice setup Ceasar!
Old     (tomfish)      Join Date: Apr 2003       05-15-2008, 4:29 PM Reply   
that is sick! Pretty soon someone will figure out how to hook up a portable generator under the deck to keep the beats going all nite!!
Old     (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-15-2008, 6:28 PM Reply   
Very interesting reading. On a typical day chilling, how often does the engine have to be run? Or do you guys leave it running the whole time? That would seem to me to be the drawback to the custom charging system verses the isolated battery bank for the system.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-15-2008, 7:17 PM Reply   
Sparky: With my way of thinking you get a big battery bank and leave the motor off. When your voltage starts dropping to a point where its not good for your system then it's time to start up.

Now here is where a system like this is KING.
Most people would be forced to shut the system off and run the boat while the alternator try's to put juice back into the batterys. With a system like this your can Play and Charge at the same time.

Your system pumping at a good clip its easy to pull 80-90 amp's no problem. Now with a normal HO alternator lets say 100 amp's you fire up your motor and TRY to re charge. Your lucky if your throwing 10-20amp's back in to your system. Your system is drawing most of the current that your trying to re charge back into your batterys. And like mike said Most HO alternators are not made to run at more than 70 to 80% of their max output.
Try pushing a 100 amp alternator to make 100 amp's
for more than 30 min's. You will be up in smoke in no time.

Now with a system like Cesear's your can beat down your batterys to nothing. Then fire up the boat all while keeping your system playing and put over 100 Amp's back into your system. And it can do this all day long.

I put a amp clamp on my alternators output after a beat down session it was pushing 170 Amp's and I was supprised at how the alternator was not overheating. I could put my hand on the alternator.

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Old     (bobenglish)      Join Date: Mar 2008       05-15-2008, 8:45 PM Reply   
That's some serious gas going to charge batteries. I am too cheap and have the luxury of charging a few extra batteries every night with shore power which costs almost nothing. But damn, what a nice system.
Old     (super_air)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-15-2008, 10:00 PM Reply   
Mike H - The Balmar stuff will work with your alternator you just need to have your circuitry in your alternator changed over to the same that Balmar runs, I believe it is "O" or "N" type that they use I can't remember.

Vision- The whole purpose of a large battery system like this is to not run the boat while chilling, partying listening to your system, I can run for about 5 to 6 hours no problem before voltage becomes an issue if I play it at average volume, as Grant stated above I run nearly 5000 watts of power just to my subs and another 2000 watts to the rest of the boat for approx. 7000 watts of juice sucking stereo so I could run the batteries down super fast or make them last all day long whichever I choose. So long story short not to much gas being used and I still charge at night on land like you do.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       05-15-2008, 11:09 PM Reply   
If you are are just using the one bank of batteries and are going to use it like you said you are going to shorten the life of your starter, gauges, lights and anything else running off 12 volts. Have you aver thought about adding one more blue top as a starting battery and using a Sure Power smart solenoid. They make a 200 amp version. The nice thing is that while your just sitting the 2 banks will be seperate that way you don't draw from the starting side. This would keep your vital systems at the right voltage all the time prolonging the life of you starter and the other items I mentioned. The nice thing is that it isn't a very big investment compared to what you already have and would be better for your whole electrical system.

Just a thought.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       05-15-2008, 11:34 PM Reply   
serious... very very serious..
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-16-2008, 6:44 AM Reply   
As far as starting. A normal alternator will sence a draw at your battery bank and make the alternator work right from the start. So when your trying to start your boat your also trying to turn the alternator thats at full pull. This make's it hard on your starter like Brett said. The Balmar system has a start program. The system will sence the draw and after your boat is running for like 2 min's it Slowly starts to charge so as to not apply full force to the belts right off the bat. It takes like 2-3 min's after start up for the alternator to be in full charge mode. Balmar says the Altanator at full pull is like a 8 Hp drag.
Old     (xaggie)      Join Date: Nov 2002       05-16-2008, 7:23 AM Reply   
G: Using rough JL wattage i'm running 3000W. 2 10w6v2's, 1 13W7, 4 Pro-80's, and the stock 6 component sets. Certainly not 3 W7's but not 4 6x9's either. Like you said cheap solution to a complex problem. I move boats at the most after 2 seasons, so a really nice setup like that is lost on 99% of the boat buying public that I sell them to. Again really like the setup though!
Old     (kustomkaraudio)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-19-2008, 12:19 AM Reply   
I think I am going to cry, I love this thread . I am just waiting for the ultimate charging system, and I would love to build this. Imagine twin balmar 210s, two max charge regulators, and a centerfielder, and an obnoxious amount of batteries. Bye the way I have got to say high to Grant, sorry I could not make Tulloch this year.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-19-2008, 6:54 AM Reply   
Yo Scott: What up, yea we missed ya at the spring ride. Tell us your shop has done a few of these system's how have they been working out for you?
I know Jerrys and Joe's systems what been working perfict.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-19-2008, 6:56 AM Reply   
Scott: BTW your ultimate charging system sounds pretty crazy. Post pictures when your done with it I would love to see some people here telling you that you spent to much money and your doing it all wrong!
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       05-19-2008, 11:20 AM Reply   
Grant,

This is a great thread and a nice system. any suggestions for alternator upgrade from the stock 100 amp in the nautique ?

Any ideas that would qualify for the "best bang for the buck" ?
Old     (super_air)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-19-2008, 8:31 PM Reply   
Clubmyke - I think a better question would be how much bang for your buck do you need to go through before you do it right. This is my 4th alternator and should be my last. I upgraded the factory Nautique unit when I put the system in the boat and that lasted about a day, I had it back into the shop and back on the boat for a few weeks before it finally gave out completely.

If you add it all up together you might say it depends on what you are trying to do with your system, I am sure the 140 amp upgrade I had might work well for you but it didn't for me, there are other Balmar set ups that are "bolt on" and not as extreme as mine and are about half the cost. If you call them and talk to an engineer and give him all of the specifics of what you would like out of your charging system it could be very helpful in making your choice.
Old     (mitchj)      Join Date: Aug 2002       05-19-2008, 11:44 PM Reply   
If it had chebby you wouldnt need to add a belt
Old     (mitchj)      Join Date: Aug 2002       05-19-2008, 11:56 PM Reply   
Mike H you can run the 210 alt without the max charge and it will handel 4 to 6 no problem
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-20-2008, 7:15 AM Reply   
Mike: does your motor have the serpitine belt's or the V belt's. The reason I ask is because the flat or serpitine belts can handle more pull. Clay did a system with a Balmar 150 alternator and a smart regulator with a large battery bank and its worked perfict.

The 210 alternator step's up because they are in a Larger case. More cooling a bit more heavy duty. The 150 and below alternators are in the small case (very close to factory size). Balmar say's the hopped up 150amp alternators tend to run hot.
Like Cesear says call them and ask them what they think they can help design a charging system that you will be happy with. Sail boat's and pleasure boats can have some huge 12 and 24 volt electrical draw's. They have some HUGE battery bank's. These day's Im pretty sure most pleasure boat dont use gas to run the refer's and stove's its all electric. A system like my'n is nothing to them. Take advantage of the customer support. They know what they are talking about.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       05-20-2008, 7:21 AM Reply   
Those big crusiers use generators
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-20-2008, 7:39 AM Reply   
I guess it must be sail boats that he was talking about. Balmar gave me a example. They said some boats would use their huge battery bank's to power everything. The boats accessories would be 100% battery powerd. Yes they had a small generator. They would fire up the motor for a few hrs a day and charge back. Some boat's would have 2 motors with 2 alternators on each motor with mulit smart chargers. Pretty crazy
Old     (seaswirlmike)      Join Date: Nov 2003       05-20-2008, 12:37 PM Reply   
yea we do have the serpitine belt's. its a 2005 v-215. we have 8 batteries. what kind of boat did clay install the 150 on? does it have a similar ammount of batts? and lastly I'm assuming it stays charged rather well?
Old     (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-21-2008, 1:54 PM Reply   
this has been a great thread and I know its about stereos and batteries but I bought a 100amp alternator in order to prevent voltage drop when I used my ballast pumps. even after the alt upgrade my volts still dip down to 9 or 10v when 2 pumps are on. I have one deep cycle and one dual purpose. The deep is for 2amps. And the other is for starting and such. they are on a basic perko switch. If I get another battery should I set it in series or parallel?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-21-2008, 8:15 PM Reply   
Hey If anyone out there is intrested in doing a system like this your in luck. We had a set of drive pullys made for a friend that we thought had a FORD.
It turns out he has a Chevy so we cant use the drive pullys we had made. Its a Lower crank pully with 3 ribb's and a upper water pump pully with 3 rib's. Both pullys are machined aluminum. These pullys will bolt right on to a Ford 351 and give you the ability to run the twin belt Balmar altnators. The pullys are exact same copy's of the ones in the first pictures in this thread
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The second pictures are from my Air Nautique the pullys are the same.
Contact Sam about the pullys. I know he paid like $850 for the pully's.
sam@bsmconst.com
Old     (jedidiah)      Join Date: May 2008       05-22-2008, 2:39 PM Reply   
Grant--

Sent you an e-mail and a PM. Hit me back when you get a chance.

Ben
Old     (superair)      Join Date: May 2000       05-22-2008, 6:54 PM Reply   
Grant

I'm finishing up my install on my 230 SAN. I have 5000 watts total (2 kicker 900.4 sx's and a 2500.1 on 4 l712's) I have the zr6 with a serpt belt. Will the 210 fit on that motor? I was thinking about running some kenetics batterys, what are you thoughts about these batteries? Will the 210 run ok opn the serpt belt?

thanks
Shawn
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       05-22-2008, 7:55 PM Reply   
Grant why wouldn't you convert you boat over to a serpentine setup? Has anyone done a separate 16V setup for a boat?

I would also imagine that a boat's motor box has very little air circulation, in comparison to a moving car, and has to contribute to the Alt. getting hot.

(Message edited by johnsvt on May 22, 2008)
Old     (jv210)      Join Date: Feb 2006       05-23-2008, 9:20 AM Reply   
Shawn, the 210 will fit on that motor, you just need to order the serpentine pulley for it from Balmer, it $75 extra.

Ewing I've heard it in the neighborhood of $1300 on top of the charging system to convert to serpentine.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       05-23-2008, 9:12 PM Reply   
I know with a little fabing and some pulley 3-400 could probably get you a serpentine setup. I know March makes a setup for show cars that i very expensive, but I doubt you would need to go to that extreme.

I also wonder how long till someone goes to the extreme of doing a cog style belt setup on an altenator...that would be no slippage and extreme.
Old     (super_air)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-29-2008, 9:27 PM Reply   
Took the boat out over the weekend and all systems were a go. Had a solid 14.6 volts while running and never lower than 12.6 volts while pounding the W-7's so I would say all in all it was a good investment.

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