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Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-13-2019, 7:13 AM Reply   
I am looking for opinions for what boat to start with. We previously owned a Cobalt 22 which is when my son fell in love with wakeboarding.

Some details:
-We are a family of 4 that will sometimes take other families.
-Our kids are currently 10 and 6.
-I am about 90% sure I'll buy used.
-I am looking at 20'-23'.
-I will be teaching my wife how to drive it so I can surf and wakeboard. She has never driven a boat.
-I would like to stay below $80k if possible.

Any information to help guide my search would be great.
-Quality brands?
-Good for beginners?
-Good price ranges?
-Expected hours on a used boat?
-Literally, anything you can think of that will help me is appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Old     (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-13-2019, 8:42 AM Reply   
There are several good options in that price range. You can get late model Malibu LSV23's for under 80k and they are a simple to use surf/wakeboard boat that can put out a very good wave. Same goes for a used Tige Z3 and a few other Tige models. You can find Centurion FS33 and FS44's in that range and they are monster surf boats. You also have some new options: The Tige R21 , Supreme, S238/S224, and I think an Axis or two can be had within your budget. New gets you a warranty and sometimes a service contract. Come to think of it I believe there are a couple Moomba's that can be had new in your range.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-13-2019, 8:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakarocks View Post
There are several good options in that price range. You can get late model Malibu LSV23's for under 80k and they are a simple to use surf/wakeboard boat that can put out a very good wave. Same goes for a used Tige Z3 and a few other Tige models. You can find Centurion FS33 and FS44's in that range and they are monster surf boats. You also have some new options: The Tige R21 , Supreme, S238/S224, and I think an Axis or two can be had within your budget. New gets you a warranty and sometimes a service contract. Come to think of it I believe there are a couple Moomba's that can be had new in your range.
Thanks for the information. Do you know much about the quality of the Moomba, Axis, and Centurion brands?

What do you consider "late model?" I would like to keep the boat for 5-10 years, if not longer.
Old     (paulharenberg)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-13-2019, 9:11 AM Reply   
I am happy to hear your son fell in love with wakeboarding and you are looking for a boat to go forward with wakeboarding.

You question is a fairly loaded one, as with the parameters you mentioned opens up the door for almost any boat on the market. I would check out onlyinboards.com and see what boats come up in your area and what the prices are for new/used and size. Also what dealers are in your area? / Do you use dealer service or do services yourself?

I offer some comment on your questions below.

Some details:
-We are a family of 4 that will sometimes take other families.How many more will you take out on your boat? this will determine what size you think you need. If you have the storage/budget/tow vehicle, a bigger boatis not a bad thing.
-Our kids are currently 10 and 6.
-I am about 90% sure I'll buy used.
-I am looking at 20'-23'. There is a bid swing in price between a 20' and a 23' (from the same manufacturer)
-I will be teaching my wife how to drive it so I can surf and wakeboard. She has never driven a boat. Boats come with speed control, so it should be a fairly easy boat lesson (minus docking/ maneuvering at slow speeds)
-I would like to stay below $80k if possible. You should have a lot of used options in this range and some new ones

Any information to help guide my search would be great.
-Quality brands? Very loaded question. They all have good and bad reviews.
-Good for beginners? A 23' wake boat will make a fairly large wake, bigger/harder than your cobalt probably. I don't think there are too many wake boats in the past 15 years that came without ballast. You can leave the ballast empty for beginning, and fill it up when you get the local outlaw/pro on your boat
-Good price ranges? Only inboards is a great resource for this.
-Expected hours on a used boat? This varies greatly. A well cared for boat with a 400 hours might bet better than a boat that sat with 60 hours
-Literally, anything you can think of that will help me is appreciated. Demo/Test drives will be good, but also dealer relationship if you buy new for those warranty items
Old     (hunter991)      Join Date: Jul 2016       02-13-2019, 9:13 AM Reply   
Look at moomba. Probably get a brand new Helix for well under 80k. otherwise other models fit in that range.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-13-2019, 9:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulharenberg View Post
I am happy to hear your son fell in love with wakeboarding and you are looking for a boat to go forward with wakeboarding.

You question is a fairly loaded one, as with the parameters you mentioned opens up the door for almost any boat on the market. I would check out onlyinboards.com and see what boats come up in your area and what the prices are for new/used and size. Also what dealers are in your area? / Do you use dealer service or do services yourself? I won't be doing service myself, at least not at first. I met a dealer at the boat show last weekend that sells Tige, Supra, and Moomba. I really liked them compared to others because they were really low pressure and more concerned with giving us good information than making a sale that day. Seems like they want to build a long-term relationship as opposed to one quick sale.

I offer some comment on your questions below.

Some details:
-We are a family of 4 that will sometimes take other families.How many more will you take out on your boat? this will determine what size you think you need. If you have the storage/budget/tow vehicle, a bigger boatis not a bad thing. I will probably 10, 12 at the max, people if we bring friends. A mixture of adults and young kids
-Our kids are currently 10 and 6.
-I am about 90% sure I'll buy used.
-I am looking at 20'-23'. There is a bid swing in price between a 20' and a 23' (from the same manufacturer)
-I will be teaching my wife how to drive it so I can surf and wakeboard. She has never driven a boat. Boats come with speed control, so it should be a fairly easy boat lesson (minus docking/ maneuvering at slow speeds)
-I would like to stay below $80k if possible. You should have a lot of used options in this range and some new ones

Any information to help guide my search would be great.
-Quality brands? Very loaded question. They all have good and bad reviews. That is what I am noticing. I was hoping I would get some honest opinions and firsthand examples.
-Good for beginners? A 23' wake boat will make a fairly large wake, bigger/harder than your cobalt probably. I don't think there are too many wake boats in the past 15 years that came without ballast. You can leave the ballast empty for beginning, and fill it up when you get the local outlaw/pro on your boat
-Good price ranges? Only inboards is a great resource for this. I am certainly going to check out this site. Never heard of it until now.
-Expected hours on a used boat? This varies greatly. A well cared for boat with a 400 hours might bet better than a boat that sat with 60 hours
-Literally, anything you can think of that will help me is appreciated. Demo/Test drives will be good, but also dealer relationship if you buy new for those warranty items
Thanks a lot for the information!
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-13-2019, 9:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter991 View Post
Look at moomba. Probably get a brand new Helix for well under 80k. otherwise other models fit in that range.
Do you have experience with Moombas? I don't really know much about them. The only thing I know is long term reputations, but in the short term any brand can go backward or forwards in quality.
Old     (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-13-2019, 9:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
Thanks for the information. Do you know much about the quality of the Moomba, Axis, and Centurion brands?

What do you consider "late model?" I would like to keep the boat for 5-10 years, if not longer.
Centurion is a premium boat and on par with other top brands. Centurion and Supreme are in the Correct Craft family with Nautique. Centurion is always at or near the top of wakesurf boats. They actually pioneered wakesurfing and produced the first boat made specifically for it.

Moomba and Axis are price point boats with their parent companies being Supra and Malibu. Both are good boats but not as feature rich as their parents. Both offer good value and performance.

When I say late model I typically mean anything from 20013 and newer.
Old     (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-13-2019, 9:48 AM Reply   
One more observation if you choose to go new. The quality and proximity of the dealership is key. A good dealer will make everything better. A bad dealer or one that is too far away will make things worse.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-13-2019, 10:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakarocks View Post
Centurion is a premium boat and on par with other top brands. Centurion and Supreme are in the Correct Craft family with Nautique. Centurion is always at or near the top of wakesurf boats. They actually pioneered wakesurfing and produced the first boat made specifically for it. So they obviously put of a good wake for surfing. How do they stack up for wakeboarding? I am guessing there is a difference in need for the two activities based on other threads that I have read on this site.

Moomba and Axis are price point boats with their parent companies being Supra and Malibu. Both are good boats but not as feature rich as their parents. Both offer good value and performance.

When I say late model I typically mean anything from 20013 and newer.
Again thanks for the response and sorry I keep asking questions. I just want to make a very informed decision.
Old     (Shakarocks)      Join Date: Mar 2013       02-13-2019, 10:51 AM Reply   
Nothing wrong with making and informed decision. I'm in the middle of making my own. Ask away.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-13-2019, 9:02 PM Reply   
Another brand to consider is MB Sports, particularly if you are in California or near one of their good dealers elsewhere. Absolutely love our 2016 MB F22.
Old     (rexlex01)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-14-2019, 6:48 AM Reply   
Nautique G23’s are generally a quality boat...

https://www.boats.com/power-boats/20...nced%20listing

https://www.boats.com/power-boats/20...dard%20listing
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-14-2019, 7:07 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulSurfer View Post
Another brand to consider is MB Sports, particularly if you are in California or near one of their good dealers elsewhere. Absolutely love our 2016 MB F22.
Did you buy it new? How has everything held up? I know nothing about them.

Thanks
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-14-2019, 7:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlex01 View Post
Those are some pretty boats. Does Nautique boats tend to hold up for a long time?

Thanks
Old     (Kwclark)      Join Date: Oct 2013       02-14-2019, 9:13 AM Reply   
If you are going used you could buy a pretty sweet Malibu lsv or nautique 230 for under 80k. Both solid boats.
Old     (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-14-2019, 10:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
Those are some pretty boats. Does Nautique boats tend to hold up for a long time?

Thanks
Yes! Nautique boats hold up very well. I am on my 3rd. (1988) (2000) and now a 2008.

But you should definitely try to find one that was well cared for since there are few vehicles that can be treated like crap for years and still be fine.

This site is a great resource but there are also facebook groups for each brand that can provide you with good information.

Personally, If I were you I would try to find something good far below your price range and then set the money aside. For example, I got my 2008 Super Air 230 for around $45,000. It's been wonderful. There is a lot to learn with boat ownership and after a year or two of good use you can then upgrade if you really want to. Nautiques also hold there value quite well.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-14-2019, 11:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshugan View Post
Yes! Nautique boats hold up very well. I am on my 3rd. (1988) (2000) and now a 2008.

But you should definitely try to find one that was well cared for since there are few vehicles that can be treated like crap for years and still be fine.

This site is a great resource but there are also facebook groups for each brand that can provide you with good information.

Personally, If I were you I would try to find something good far below your price range and then set the money aside. For example, I got my 2008 Super Air 230 for around $45,000. It's been wonderful. There is a lot to learn with boat ownership and after a year or two of good use you can then upgrade if you really want to. Nautiques also hold there value quite well.
Thanks for the advice. When you say "try to find one that was well cared for," what exactly am I looking for?
Old     (rlwagens)      Join Date: Feb 2008       02-14-2019, 2:04 PM Reply   
Come on people, recommending a G to somebody telling you that their wife is gonna be learning to drive her first boat with this purchase? Not to mention your 10 year old isn't too far off from taking over driving responsibilities as well.

As far as Nautiques, they hold their value extremely well. My 2006 210 is selling for the same price, sometimes more, as what I paid for it 5 years ago. After the initial hit the first few years after leaving the dealership, they tend to stabilize in certain ranges depending on model years. Any 2012 and newer Nautique 210/230 will have NSS (surf system) or can be retrofitted with your Nautique dealer. Save the extra money for your future upgrade and get an older used boat because it WILL get dings/have accidents when everyone is learning to drive, not too mention mishaps if you are going to be trailering it as well.
Old     (rexlex01)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-14-2019, 4:30 PM Reply   
Did your wife ever drive the Cobalt?
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 5:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlwagens View Post
Come on people, recommending a G to somebody telling you that their wife is gonna be learning to drive her first boat with this purchase? Not to mention your 10 year old isn't too far off from taking over driving responsibilities as well.

As far as Nautiques, they hold their value extremely well. My 2006 210 is selling for the same price, sometimes more, as what I paid for it 5 years ago. After the initial hit the first few years after leaving the dealership, they tend to stabilize in certain ranges depending on model years. Any 2012 and newer Nautique 210/230 will have NSS (surf system) or can be retrofitted with your Nautique dealer. Save the extra money for your future upgrade and get an older used boat because it WILL get dings/have accidents when everyone is learning to drive, not too mention mishaps if you are going to be trailering it as well.
Thanks. What is a "G"? And, don't say Gangsta
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 5:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlex01 View Post
Did your wife ever drive the Cobalt?
No she didn't. She was scared and we never had any reason.
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-15-2019, 6:13 AM Reply   
Totally agree with Rlwagens....and suggest if this is your first wake boat to also get an older used one and perhaps 21ft as the smaller ones will be a bit more maneuverable and lighter for towing...probably very similar to your Cobalt on driving experience EXCEPT when reversing since an inboard will "pull" to one direction only in reverse and you lose steering, however once you learn how to use it, its very easy and you can use it too your advantage.
You also need to consider towing capabilities if you go bigger. 23ft is probably the most popular size (You can figure that sitting on the trailer, most 23ft wake boats will be between 6000-7000lbs including the trailer, fuel, tower, speakers and all your gear, the "published weight" is not accurate since it doesnt account for trailer, tower, gear or any fluids and you would be surprised how quick it can add up) my 24ft Centurion is between 7500-8000lbs on tandem trailer depending on how much of my 500lbs of lead I haul that day (which depends on how many people are going out)..... but tons of sizes in between and all the way up to 26ft on some of the newer models. The bigger the boat, the more ballast you need to sink the hull for a surf wave. If wakeboarding is your thing and you don't expect to do much surfing....consider that since some boats make an easier wakeboard wave and some are geared toward surfing....some do everything fairly well.

The upside to buying an "older boat" for $35-$50k is that you can keep it a couple years and lose VERY little on depreciation if you take care of it (maintenance is key on these boats), that gets you into the game for less money and will tell you what you really want and what is important to you so when you upgrade, you get exactly what you want without spending $80-$100k upfront and then realizing that perhaps you picked wrong and lose $10k in depreciation over a summer when you switch (seen it happen a bunch of times). While hours can be important, the MOST important is how boat was maintained, most engines will get 1500-2000hrs pretty easy and many will get double that before any major work is needed. Just make sure you have the boat CHECKED OUT before buying!! Cant stress that enough.
Many of the older boats are still going to give you an awesome wakeboard/surf wave....just not always as simple as "pushing a button" having either a tab system or something like surf gate. You can add a suck gate, like Nauticurl or Mission and get an excellent surf wave with most of the pre-surf system boats, especially the ones with deep V hulls like Centurion Avalanche, Tige 22ve, Nautique 210 and some others. Check out some of the brand specific forums and you can find out exact models and what they do best: CenturionCrew.com; PlanetNautique.com; TigeOwners.com; Etc. Once you decide and buy a boat, using that brands forum can shorten your learning curve dramatically and you can also find out all the maintenance items, most common issues with that boat/engine, best way to set up ballast, etc.

We have had boats forever, before wake boats...a couple Sea Ray I/O's. My wife never liked to drive as it made her nervous but once she was around our Centurion for a while and once I showed her how to drive and manuver while I was surfing....like when I fall while surfing, she drops boat down to neutral and turns toward opposite side the surf wave is on, the waves "wash past" the boat and finish turning it around, then she puts it into idle and comes by me. Doing it this way keeps her from every "dipping the bow", keeps the boat close to the surfing and does not throw waves in every direction so it doesnt piss off everyone else and you can basically go one direction, then the other....and water stays smooth. Power turns, or turning hard while ballasted is not only hard on the boat, but is the biggest no-no and is the quickest and surest way to piss off everyone else on the lake and people doing stuff like that is a reason that so many people are trying to ban surfing on some lakes....also staying 200+ feet away from docks and other boats.
BTW, GPS speed control is a huge benefit and well worth upgrading if the boat you buy does not have it, almost all boats can be retro-fitted and makes it much easier to keep things consistent. Set the speed, push throttle forward and forget it.

Anyway, this post is already too long. Good luck on your search, you wont regret the switch to wake boat...Leaving I/O was the best thing I ever did.
Old     (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SLC, UT 5600'       02-15-2019, 6:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
Do you have experience with Moombas? I don't really know much about them. The only thing I know is long term reputations, but in the short term any brand can go backward or forwards in quality.
Take a LONG look at the Moomba MAX, 22'6" and your budget will put you pretty dang new. Wakeboards really well and you wont beleive the surf. In UT we have a 2018 thats loaded for $76k and still 6 years warranty. It's a pretty simple boat when it comes to bling but it's a work horse. Autowake will really help the wife and I feel it sets itself apart from anybody else in it's class.

https://www.slcboats.com/default.asp...OwnedInventory
Old     (CALIV210)      Join Date: Jun 2015       02-15-2019, 6:19 AM Reply   
Didnt see where you are from . But as far as bang for the buck Sanger is a great option as well . Especially if your in California . I really like the Sanger and MB boats . Maybe because im poor and they are closer to my price range .lol.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-15-2019, 6:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
I am looking for opinions for what boat to start with. We previously owned a Cobalt 22 which is when my son fell in love with wakeboarding.

Some details:
-We are a family of 4 that will sometimes take other families.
-Our kids are currently 10 and 6.
-I am about 90% sure I'll buy used.
-I am looking at 20'-23'.
-I will be teaching my wife how to drive it so I can surf and wakeboard. She has never driven a boat.
-I would like to stay below $80k if possible.

Any information to help guide my search would be great.
-Quality brands?
-Good for beginners?
-Good price ranges?
-Expected hours on a used boat?
-Literally, anything you can think of that will help me is appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
We're first time wakeboat (and boat) owners...I was in the same boat as you the last 4-5 mos, exciting stuff! We started looking at 3-6 year old models and realized the capability of some of those boats were way outside our rookie status. By the time we got good enough to take full advantage of a Malibu, G, etc. we'd be upgrading anyway probably. Finding exactly what we wanted was tough, and we also realized we'd probably need to figure an extra $800-1200 to transfer any existing warranty, some sellers were willing to split that.

So we just decided to order a new Moomba Craz for under $80k. Got exactly what we wanted, boat show extended 7 year warranty on the motor/powertrain and no wondering how the first owner took care of it. The Max is great too, but our lake limit is 22' and we preferred a few of the Craz features you can't get in the max (larger touch screen, rev10s instead of 8s, etc. I'm still not in love with the frumpiness of the Helix/Max either.

IMO Moomba interior quality/ride was the best in the segment, and with another 4-600lbs of rear ballast the wave/wake can be almost in the Axis realm. But people upgrade often in this world, and I have a feeling we will too as our skill levels dictate. We toured Skier's Choice and were impressed with what we saw, the Moombas/Supras are truly built on the same line until interior/rigging is done, which I thought was reassuring.

FYI, 15-20% off of new is what I've seen in the Axis world at well over $90k MSRP loaded, probably around half that for Moomba, but MSRP loaded was in low $80s. More standard features on the Moomba that you have to pay for w Axis (pop-up cleats, sliding bench seat, slide/swivel helm seat, bolster, stainless cupholders, etc.) and the surf systems are way less when added so that accounts for most of the MSRP difference. Not sure about the NXT, MB, Tige R series, etc...we didn't get that far down the road with them.

Last edited by Matt0520; 02-15-2019 at 6:49 AM.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 7:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitysurf View Post
Totally agree with Rlwagens....and suggest if this is your first wake boat to also get an older used one and perhaps 21ft as the smaller ones will be a bit more maneuverable and lighter for towing...probably very similar to your Cobalt on driving experience EXCEPT when reversing since an inboard will "pull" to one direction only in reverse and you lose steering, however once you learn how to use it, its very easy and you can use it too your advantage.
You also need to consider towing capabilities if you go bigger. 23ft is probably the most popular size (You can figure that sitting on the trailer, most 23ft wake boats will be between 6000-7000lbs including the trailer, fuel, tower, speakers and all your gear, the "published weight" is not accurate since it doesnt account for trailer, tower, gear or any fluids and you would be surprised how quick it can add up) my 24ft Centurion is between 7500-8000lbs on tandem trailer depending on how much of my 500lbs of lead I haul that day (which depends on how many people are going out)..... but tons of sizes in between and all the way up to 26ft on some of the newer models. The bigger the boat, the more ballast you need to sink the hull for a surf wave. If wakeboarding is your thing and you don't expect to do much surfing....consider that since some boats make an easier wakeboard wave and some are geared toward surfing....some do everything fairly well.

The upside to buying an "older boat" for $35-$50k is that you can keep it a couple years and lose VERY little on depreciation if you take care of it (maintenance is key on these boats), that gets you into the game for less money and will tell you what you really want and what is important to you so when you upgrade, you get exactly what you want without spending $80-$100k upfront and then realizing that perhaps you picked wrong and lose $10k in depreciation over a summer when you switch (seen it happen a bunch of times). While hours can be important, the MOST important is how boat was maintained, most engines will get 1500-2000hrs pretty easy and many will get double that before any major work is needed. Just make sure you have the boat CHECKED OUT before buying!! Cant stress that enough.
Many of the older boats are still going to give you an awesome wakeboard/surf wave....just not always as simple as "pushing a button" having either a tab system or something like surf gate. You can add a suck gate, like Nauticurl or Mission and get an excellent surf wave with most of the pre-surf system boats, especially the ones with deep V hulls like Centurion Avalanche, Tige 22ve, Nautique 210 and some others. Check out some of the brand specific forums and you can find out exact models and what they do best: CenturionCrew.com; PlanetNautique.com; TigeOwners.com; Etc. Once you decide and buy a boat, using that brands forum can shorten your learning curve dramatically and you can also find out all the maintenance items, most common issues with that boat/engine, best way to set up ballast, etc.

We have had boats forever, before wake boats...a couple Sea Ray I/O's. My wife never liked to drive as it made her nervous but once she was around our Centurion for a while and once I showed her how to drive and manuver while I was surfing....like when I fall while surfing, she drops boat down to neutral and turns toward opposite side the surf wave is on, the waves "wash past" the boat and finish turning it around, then she puts it into idle and comes by me. Doing it this way keeps her from every "dipping the bow", keeps the boat close to the surfing and does not throw waves in every direction so it doesnt piss off everyone else and you can basically go one direction, then the other....and water stays smooth. Power turns, or turning hard while ballasted is not only hard on the boat, but is the biggest no-no and is the quickest and surest way to piss off everyone else on the lake and people doing stuff like that is a reason that so many people are trying to ban surfing on some lakes....also staying 200+ feet away from docks and other boats.
BTW, GPS speed control is a huge benefit and well worth upgrading if the boat you buy does not have it, almost all boats can be retro-fitted and makes it much easier to keep things consistent. Set the speed, push throttle forward and forget it.

Anyway, this post is already too long. Good luck on your search, you wont regret the switch to wake boat...Leaving I/O was the best thing I ever did.

Thank you so much! A ton of good information!
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 7:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by downfortheride View Post
Take a LONG look at the Moomba MAX, 22'6" and your budget will put you pretty dang new. Wakeboards really well and you wont beleive the surf. In UT we have a 2018 thats loaded for $76k and still 6 years warranty. It's a pretty simple boat when it comes to bling but it's a work horse. Autowake will really help the wife and I feel it sets itself apart from anybody else in it's class.

https://www.slcboats.com/default.asp...OwnedInventory
Thanks. I am seeing a lot of love for Moomba on here.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 7:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALIV210 View Post
Didnt see where you are from . But as far as bang for the buck Sanger is a great option as well . Especially if your in California . I really like the Sanger and MB boats . Maybe because im poor and they are closer to my price range .lol.
HA! I feel like that sometimes too! I'm in MO. I'll check them out though, thanks.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 8:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt0520 View Post
We're first time wakeboat (and boat) owners...I was in the same boat as you the last 4-5 mos, exciting stuff! We started looking at 3-6 year old models and realized the capability of some of those boats were way outside our rookie status. By the time we got good enough to take full advantage of a Malibu, G, etc. we'd be upgrading anyway probably. Finding exactly what we wanted was tough, and we also realized we'd probably need to figure an extra $800-1200 to transfer any existing warranty, some sellers were willing to split that.

So we just decided to order a new Moomba Craz for under $80k. Got exactly what we wanted, boat show extended 7 year warranty on the motor/powertrain and no wondering how the first owner took care of it. The Max is great too, but our lake limit is 22' and we preferred a few of the Craz features you can't get in the max (larger touch screen, rev10s instead of 8s, etc. I'm still not in love with the frumpiness of the Helix/Max either.

IMO Moomba interior quality/ride was the best in the segment, and with another 4-600lbs of rear ballast the wave/wake can be almost in the Axis realm. But people upgrade often in this world, and I have a feeling we will too as our skill levels dictate. We toured Skier's Choice and were impressed with what we saw, the Moombas/Supras are truly built on the same line until interior/rigging is done, which I thought was reassuring.

FYI, 15-20% off of new is what I've seen in the Axis world at well over $90k MSRP loaded, probably around half that for Moomba, but MSRP loaded was in low $80s. More standard features on the Moomba that you have to pay for w Axis (pop-up cleats, sliding bench seat, slide/swivel helm seat, bolster, stainless cupholders, etc.) and the surf systems are way less when added so that accounts for most of the MSRP difference. Not sure about the NXT, MB, Tige R series, etc...we didn't get that far down the road with them.
Thanks for the input. The dealer I like sells Moombas, and I appreciate the info on the brand.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-15-2019, 10:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
Thanks for the input. The dealer I like sells Moombas, and I appreciate the info on the brand.
No problem! That's convenient, good to at least see them in person in the showroom, only next best thing is a demo
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-15-2019, 6:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt0520 View Post
No problem! That's convenient, good to at least see them in person in the showroom, only next best thing is a demo
For sure. The salesmen said they wouldnít us demo and get my son behind it before we buy. They were very concerned with our comfort as buyers, which is why I like them so much.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-16-2019, 6:06 AM Reply   
I would submit that even though you may not feel like surfing is going to be a big part of what you do, it eventually will become a favorite. In my opinion. Think surfing as you shop (PSST...MAX).
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-16-2019, 6:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
I would submit that even though you may not feel like surfing is going to be a big part of what you do, it eventually will become a favorite. In my opinion. Think surfing as you shop (PSST...MAX).
I think I will be doing some surfing because it seems a little easier on the body and Iím pushing 40. When you say ďMAXĒ, are you talking Moomba?
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-16-2019, 10:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
I think I will be doing some surfing because it seems a little easier on the body and Iím pushing 40. When you say ďMAXĒ, are you talking Moomba?


I am. That boat combines price with performance like no other current boat in my opinion. Itís a surf beast, and so deep/roomy. Itís a real sweetheart.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-16-2019, 4:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
Did you buy it new? How has everything held up? I know nothing about them.

Thanks
Yes, we bought it new in 2016. Getting close to 200 hours on it now. Boat has been perfect. MB are very well built boats, just not loaded with gadgets/gizmos/tech. They make 400 or so a year, so considerably lower volume than the big name brands. Throws an excellent surf wave and wakeboarding wake. Rides smooth as well, as it has a pretty deep v hull.
Old     (Padge)      Join Date: Feb 2017       02-17-2019, 3:57 AM Reply   
If you want new, Iíd put a moomba max at the top of my list. If you go used, a Malibu 23 LSV can be had around your price range. Prob a 2015 and maybe a 16. The Malibu is a pretty simple boat to operate when it comes to surfing etc. Not had a moomba to know about them, but I do know that the quality exceeds axis in my opinion.

Try to go as new as possible as these boats are like computers, 5 years old and they tend to get outdated as far as technology. Although nothing is wrong with an older boat. I just came from a 2012 pre surfgate malibu 247 LSV, and that boat was awesome. Built great and when setup right, threw as big of a wave as any boat Iíve seen.

You really just need to get your hands on all of these boats to get a feel for what you and your family like. You canít go wrong really with any brand. They all have pros and cons. Good luck with your search! Also be forewarned, once you buy a boat like this, you will be spoiled and can never go back to a stern drive lol!
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-17-2019, 5:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by downfortheride View Post
Autowake will really help the wife and I feel it sets itself apart from anybody else in it's class.
With everyone I know turning it off, and the fact that no other boat company has added it....... I donít really think Autowake is something that sets them apart.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 8:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
With everyone I know turning it off, and the fact that no other boat company has added it....... I donít really think Autowake is something that sets them apart.


Not true. I use it all the timeóoff or on. The sensors and automation are great. It hasnít been added to other manufacturers as it is very proprietary and heavily protected.

Itís a sweet system. Very worth it. I run it with big crews 100%.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-17-2019, 10:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
With everyone I know turning it off, and the fact that no other boat company has added it....... I donít really think Autowake is something that sets them apart.

People turn it off because they try to be smarter than the system and it doesnít work right as a result. That, combined with dealers not being well-versed in the system, I think has lead to a some uneducated owners out there.

I think earlier versions of the system also needed a few seconds with the key switched to Ďaccessoryí for the system to power on and zero the sensors or something like that.

Autowake has many patents. So there you go.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 10:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt0520 View Post
People turn it off because they try to be smarter than the system and it doesnít work right as a result. That, combined with dealers not being well-versed in the system, I think has lead to a some uneducated owners out there.

I think earlier versions of the system also needed a few seconds with the key switched to Ďaccessoryí for the system to power on and zero the sensors or something like that.

Autowake has many patents. So there you go.


^^this.

I find it better off when I have a very small crew because I know exactly what I need with my boat. But, I am still checking it over and over to make sure that what I have set up is what it would run.

With a large crew, when overall weight does not matter, I turn it on because it can make nice little adjustments.

Last edited by dakota4ce; 02-17-2019 at 10:36 AM.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-17-2019, 11:25 AM Reply   
And here I was thinking that the whole point of autowake was that you didn’t have to be “well versed” to run it, and that it was fool proof. Wasn’t that the point?


And I’m guessing that you guys are not aware that Skiers Choice does NOT own autowake. They didn’t invent it. They didn’t design it. They didn’t patent it. It was designed and patented by a completely independent firm called, Wake Touch LLC. The system is on the open market for all OEMs to buy, and has been ever since they designed it.

They have some patents for incorporating the system into a boat with dual actuated tabs, because autowake had to add the functionality into the system for flow 3. But, besides that, Wake Touch LLC owns the patents, and assigns them to Skiers Choice. They are still publically marketing the system to other OEMs.

So.... there you go.

Skiers choice did trademark the name “AutoWake”, so any other OEM using the system would have to call it something else.

Last edited by Fixable; 02-17-2019 at 11:28 AM.
Old     (Padge)      Join Date: Feb 2017       02-17-2019, 11:51 AM Reply   
Can always count on the wakeworld police to give their .02 cents. Autowake obviously works, otherwise they would do away with it.

Fixable, what boat do you currently have? Maybe you have an opinion on what boat he should look into.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-17-2019, 12:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
And here I was thinking that the whole point of autowake was that you didnít have to be ďwell versedĒ to run it, and that it was fool proof. Wasnít that the point?

What I meant was, you have to know enough to know not to screw with it all the time and try to second guess the system. You also have to have things calibrated properly out of the gate, or youíre in the ďgarbage in, garbage outĒ scenario with the computers/sensors that run it.

I was told they licensed the technology, maybe I was misinformed. As far as who owns the patent, idk. Iíve seen the system work, and work really well. thatís all I know

Last edited by Matt0520; 02-17-2019 at 12:09 PM.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 12:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
And here I was thinking that the whole point of autowake was that you didnít have to be ďwell versedĒ to run it, and that it was fool proof. Wasnít that the point?


And Iím guessing that you guys are not aware that Skiers Choice does NOT own autowake. They didnít invent it. They didnít design it. They didnít patent it. It was designed and patented by a completely independent firm called, Wake Touch LLC. The system is on the open market for all OEMs to buy, and has been ever since they designed it.

They have some patents for incorporating the system into a boat with dual actuated tabs, because autowake had to add the functionality into the system for flow 3. But, besides that, Wake Touch LLC owns the patents, and assigns them to Skiers Choice. They are still publically marketing the system to other OEMs.

So.... there you go.

Skiers choice did trademark the name ďAutoWakeĒ, so any other OEM using the system would have to call it something else.


Well tattoo me surprised. I was aware of all that you mention, to your obvious utter amazement I am sure, except that impression given was that the technology is exclusive to SC and is not on the open market. The creator spoke of all of this on the TO forum leading up to the ďsaleĒ to Skiers Choice.

If it is indeed not exclusive, first thatís a big surprise, and second thatís not how it was all described way back when when Waketouch LLC designed the system.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 12:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt0520 View Post
Jesus. What I meant was, you have to know enough to know not to screw with it all the time and try to second guess the system. You also have to have things calibrated properly out of the gate, or youíre in the ďgarbage in, garbage outĒ scenario with the computers/sensors that run it.

I was told they licensed the technology, maybe I was misinformed. As far as who owns the patent, idgaf. Iíve seen the system work, and work really well. thatís all I know


I would also say that Fixable, in assuming itís a surf button for idiots, has a fundamental mis-impression of what itís for. You have to know how to use it, well......to use it.

I will ask my buddy inside SC what the IP arrangement is. Out of curiosity.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-17-2019, 12:19 PM Reply   
So now you guys are aware of what I mentioned? What happened to stating it was patented by skiers choice and that’s why nobody else could use it?

Wake Touch still has their site and videos up promoting the systems, and more than one engineer from other OEMs has stated that they have evaluated the system, to see if it was viable in their boats. Maybe they liked it, but just decided it wasn’t worth the cost?!? Who knows.

Either way, I didn’t mean any offense. All the different manufacturers have their little features and gimmicks, and they all have their own set of advantages and disadvantages.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-17-2019, 1:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
So now you guys are aware of what I mentioned? What happened to stating it was patented by skiers choice and thatís why nobody else could use it?.

Canít speak for anyone else, but again I was just passing on what Iíve been told by multiple people (dealer, owners, etc). Iím a new guy to the industry so Iím still sorting through info.
Old     (Entersandman)      Join Date: Jun 2015       02-17-2019, 1:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
So now you guys are aware of what I mentioned? What happened to stating it was patented by skiers choice and thatís why nobody else could use it?

Wake Touch still has their site and videos up promoting the systems, and more than one engineer from other OEMs has stated that they have evaluated the system, to see if it was viable in their boats. Maybe they liked it, but just decided it wasnít worth the cost?!? Who knows.

Either way, I didnít mean any offense. All the different manufacturers have their little features and gimmicks, and they all have their own set of advantages and disadvantages.

There is a patent on AutoWake by Supra see below....

The AutoWake patented technology is covered by U.S. Patent Nos. 8,798,825, 9,689,395, 9,828,075, 9,873,491 and other patents pending. See more at www.skierschoice.com/patents-trademarks/.

Wave Touch also states on their site you can purchase their IP and join in on their patents.

From Wave Touch...
If you're a manufacturer, we should talk.

The software and hardware are working. Patent claims have already issued and dozens more are pending. This Intellectual Property (IP) is ready for sale to a manufacturer who wants an immediate and sustainable market advantage. We're very experienced with technology development and transfer. We're ready to proceed as fast as you are. The next generation of helm technology is finally here, and you can OWN and CONTROL it. If you're in the boating industry, we should talk.

I'm assuming Supra bought the IP made the changes required and patented it.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-17-2019, 2:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entersandman View Post
There is a patent on AutoWake by Supra see below....

The AutoWake patented technology is covered by U.S. Patent Nos. 8,798,825, 9,689,395, 9,828,075, 9,873,491 and other patents pending. See more at www.skierschoice.com/patents-trademarks/.

Wave Touch also states on their site you can purchase their IP and join in on their patents.

From Wave Touch...
If you're a manufacturer, we should talk.

The software and hardware are working. Patent claims have already issued and dozens more are pending. This Intellectual Property (IP) is ready for sale to a manufacturer who wants an immediate and sustainable market advantage. We're very experienced with technology development and transfer. We're ready to proceed as fast as you are. The next generation of helm technology is finally here, and you can OWN and CONTROL it. If you're in the boating industry, we should talk.

I'm assuming Supra bought the IP made the changes required and patented it.
Look the patents up...... they are owned by the owner of Wake Touch LLC. Skiers choice has an assignment on them. They don’t own them. Anyone else that wanted to use it would have to pay wake touch for the assignment to do so. This would be why the info you quoted from their site is still on their site. The patent use is available to anyone, but they would need to pay for it like SC does.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 3:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
So now you guys are aware of what I mentioned? What happened to stating it was patented by skiers choice and thatís why nobody else could use it?

Wake Touch still has their site and videos up promoting the systems, and more than one engineer from other OEMs has stated that they have evaluated the system, to see if it was viable in their boats. Maybe they liked it, but just decided it wasnít worth the cost?!? Who knows.

Either way, I didnít mean any offense. All the different manufacturers have their little features and gimmicks, and they all have their own set of advantages and disadvantages.


Um, yeah we are aware of who built it. I recall it clearly. As far as exclusive licensing of the ďAutowakeĒ IP, I donít think you know the specifics of that either. Waketouch has been developing all sorts of stuffóand it sure sounds like their website is promoting the next generation of whatever helm automation theyíre working on?

Or are you sure? Thereís a lot of feeling that Autowake is exclusive. But I will certainly ask. Itís a good thing to know based on this thread.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-17-2019, 3:08 PM Reply   
^ They are literally still openly advertising it for sale, as well as their tablet retrofit, and future advancements. What is there to ask?
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 3:14 PM Reply   
Actually your assertion was that it doesnít work very well therefore no one else is buying it. Which is complete BS. Thatís an opinion.

Itís actually extremely useful as an entire system.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 3:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
^ They are literally still openly advertising it for sale, as well as their tablet retrofit, and future advancements. What is there to ask?


By the way I will be the first to congratulate you if you are correct! But it should be pretty easy to find out. Skiers choice guys are good friends. That way this person is looking at buying one of those boats (the thread) can have complete and accurate information.
Old     (Entersandman)      Join Date: Jun 2015       02-17-2019, 3:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Look the patents up...... they are owned by the owner of Wake Touch LLC. Skiers choice has an assignment on them. They donít own them. Anyone else that wanted to use it would have to pay wake touch for the assignment to do so. This would be why the info you quoted from their site is still on their site. The patent use is available to anyone, but they would need to pay for it like SC does.
I did. Did you? Applicant is SC and the Richard Hartman is the assignee. I believe Richard works for SC.

I believe you are a Supra hater and a Mr can't be wrong. Take your crybaby self on.

SC has a patent for what is used on the Supra line. You are correct Touch Wave developed the concept and markets it still but you are INCORRECT that Supra didn't patent their own system.

They may have camped on to some but not all.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-17-2019, 4:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entersandman View Post
I did. Did you? Applicant is SC and the Richard Hartman is the assignee. I believe Richard works for SC.

I believe you are a Supra hater and a Mr can't be wrong. Take your crybaby self on.

SC has a patent for what is used on the Supra line. You are correct Touch Wave developed the concept and markets it still but you are INCORRECT that Supra didn't patent their own system.

They may have camped on to some but not all.
Donít dislike Supra at all..... really like them.....

Just trying to give accurate information but the fanboiís are getting butthurt. I mean no disrespect.

Oh, and Richard Hartman is the owner of Wake Touch LLC........ which would be why he is listed as the owner of the autowake patents. He doesnít work for SC.
Old     (mattbrown)      Join Date: Dec 2017       02-17-2019, 6:58 PM Reply   
Hey guys. Man this thread got derailed pretty quick....

To the original poster, I think there are lots of great boats that could meet your budget and needs. I work for Moomba and if you have any questions about any of our products, send me an email at mbrown@skierschoice.com. We are pretty swamped right now but always trying to help our future customers. Also, as several have mentioned, if you ever in TN, come by and check out our factory. It's pretty cool seeing how they are built first hand.

As to the questions about AutoWake, I don't want to highjack this thread but I will answer some questions and then if anyone has more questions, again email me and I can try to help...

It's not a secret that Richard Hartman and Wake Touch were the original inventors of AutoWake. Also, it's not a secret that Wake Touch sold the original patents to Skiers Choice. The original Wake Touch information is still on the web, but AutoWake is not on the market and not available to other manufacturers. If you don't believe me, just call Richard and ask. Wake Touch and Skiers Choice are partners on several projects and not sure all the details are really that important for everyone to understand.
Old     (mattbrown)      Join Date: Dec 2017       02-17-2019, 7:02 PM Reply   
Fixable, sorry you have been given bad info about AutoWake. If you have any other questions about AutoWake or the different ways to use it, let me know. There is also a lot of information on the moomba forum about it that might help explain how you could use it based on your level of experience....
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-17-2019, 7:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
Donít dislike Supra at all..... really like them.....



Just trying to give accurate information but the fanboiís are getting butthurt. I mean no disrespect.



Oh, and Richard Hartman is the owner of Wake Touch LLC........ which would be why he is listed as the owner of the autowake patents. He doesnít work for SC.


No butt hurt here, just want the fella looking at his first wake boat to have good info. Autowake is cool. Helpful. And useful. Do I use it actively 100% of the time. No. But I always use itís info.
Old     (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       02-17-2019, 8:43 PM Reply   
Didn't read the whole thread, but if you're buying used (what I'd definitely do) I'd get a Nautique 230 (or 236, same boat) for around 50K and keep the rest of that money in your pocket. That boat is all you'll ever need, enough space, sick wakeboard wake and (as far as I know) good wave for surfing. Nautique build quality is as good as it gets.
Just doesn't make sense to me to spend more on a boat unless you get a G23 or so.
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-18-2019, 2:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbrown View Post
Fixable, sorry you have been given bad info about AutoWake. If you have any other questions about AutoWake or the different ways to use it, let me know. There is also a lot of information on the moomba forum about it that might help explain how you could use it based on your level of experience....
Apologies for giving bad info.

Richard should consider not continuing to publicly advertise the tech on his website. And I was also only going off info I heard first hand from two different head engineers at other companies.... that they had recently evaluated it, and looked at using it.

I never said that they claimed it didnít work, or that they didnít like it. They just stated that it was looked at, and they didnít go forward with it.

Either way, it wasnít meant as a personal insult to anyone, as it seems it was taken that way.
Old     (mrekart)      Join Date: Sep 2017       02-18-2019, 7:59 AM Reply   
OH MY...I almost started looking for a pontoon instead.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-18-2019, 8:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrekart View Post
OH MY...I almost started looking for a pontoon instead.

Rofl
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       02-19-2019, 6:42 AM Reply   
Why do these threads always turn into fan boy threads? At an 80k budget you'd be doing yourself a diservice not to demo all of them. They all do things well with different nuances.
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-19-2019, 6:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wombat2wombat View Post
Why do these threads always turn into fan boy threads? At an 80k budget you'd be doing yourself a diservice not to demo all of them. They all do things well with different nuances.


I donít think it turned into a fanboy thread.

A user came strong with some inaccurate information, and the correct info was fleshed out.

All for the good of the OP guy looking at boats. I would say it worked well as a public forum!
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       02-19-2019, 7:34 AM Reply   
TONS of great boats in your budget. Nautiques are built well and hold value. Malibus got some sweet boats and tech. Moomba is doing some cool things, but I just can't do it. Centurion was built to surf. I chose a Sanger cause they're built like tanks and drive like a sports car, but doubt you have many up that way.

Dealer is important, but less so if you do your own maintenance. As many said, demo several brands. Try to find a dealer with good used inventory so that you don't piss people off taking rides in their boats just to try something different. Everything's winterized right now anyway. Just start doing some research so you're ready when spring hits.
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       02-19-2019, 8:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
I donít think it turned into a fanboy thread.

A user came strong with some inaccurate information, and the correct info was fleshed out.

All for the good of the OP guy looking at boats. I would say it worked well as a public forum!
You are correct. Honestly I don't even know why people ask when the answer is obviously MB or Pavatti
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-19-2019, 9:28 AM Reply   
Well yeah. Pavati for sure then just a bunch of other randoms.
Old     (Padge)      Join Date: Feb 2017       02-19-2019, 9:29 AM Reply   
Must just be me, I wouldnít take a new Pavati over my 18 se. ugly as sin
Old     (dakota4ce)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-19-2019, 10:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padge View Post
Must just be me, I wouldnít take a new Pavati over my 18 se. ugly as sin


It was sarcastic. Theyíre not for me.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       02-19-2019, 10:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce View Post
It was sarcastic. Theyíre not for me.
Yeah I think if we ever get a Supra SA, G21, etc....I'd be hard pressed to want anything 'better'.
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       02-19-2019, 11:16 AM Reply   
I would never buy a Pavatti. Anyone not in the know would just think I own an ugly boat
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-19-2019, 7:32 PM Reply   
People "in the know" would think the same thing...
Old     (wombat2wombat)      Join Date: Sep 2018       02-20-2019, 11:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulSurfer View Post
People "in the know" would think the same thing...
True. But they'd think I was a baller..

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