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Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-13-2014, 10:23 AM Reply   
As the title states, what is accepted definition of a "surf system"? Was an actual surf system only born with the release of Surf Gate and the NSS that are said to use a "delayed convergence" technology? Is a surf system only a surf system if it allows for on-the-fly side switching? It seems that if the apparatus does not mimic surf gate or NCC, its not a "surf system", even though its a mechanical device that directly manipulates the wave. Although these devices do not use the delayed-convergence technology, would you still consider a surf system, as its a mechanical device that effects the wave: Mastercraft gen-1 tabs, Centurions switchblade and now its movable tracking fin, Tige AVX, Moomba's Flow and any others ive left out?

This is 100% NOT about which system is better, but solely about the essence of a definition.

Post your thoughts and comments and ideas!
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-13-2014, 11:17 AM Reply   
To me, it's anything other than ballast that makes the wave better.
Old     (Ewok01)      Join Date: Apr 2013       10-13-2014, 11:43 AM Reply   
I think it's all a surf system. Ballast is required on all the "systems" except the wedge. Even if the owner needs to manually fill and drain and move sacs around, it's a manual surf system via the owner/driver. It's all too fuzzy now to call one thing a system and discount something else. There are surely easier to use systems but I'd say that it's near impossible to honestly discount anything unless it truly does nothing to help make or shape a wake. Like the throttle body "vortex generator" that helps increase fuel economy by mixing air and fuel better. It does nothing to increase fuel economy except make the wallet lighter of the driver.
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       10-13-2014, 11:46 AM Reply   
To me it is any mechanical device used to compensate for a bad hull design .you can not get as good a wave with a surf system as you can with ballast and a surf specific hull .JMTC
Old     (OneCent)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-13-2014, 2:14 PM Reply   
for me, a "surf system" is something thats a part of the boat and helps to build, tune and clean up the wake for both sides. Fatsacks on the seat and floor ist not a "surf system" for me.

We only listen our boats because of a "bad hull design", thats why we try to change the running surface with leaning the boat to one side.
Old     (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       10-13-2014, 3:02 PM Reply   
My definition:
A device, mechanism, or other implement designed to allow surfing on either side of the boat in a reasonably short amount of time.

This would include surf gate, nss, surf tabs, swell, flow, switch, etc.

It would also include a setup of sacks on either side and a combination of very quick fill/drain pumps and/or cross over pumps to allow switching side to side within a few minutes.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       10-13-2014, 5:11 PM Reply   
boat stays flat, wave switches side to side on the fly. Anything else is a surf "enhancement."
Old     (biggator)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-14-2014, 8:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by h20king View Post
To me it is any mechanical device used to compensate for a bad hull design .you can not get as good a wave with a surf system as you can with ballast and a surf specific hull .JMTC
Which manufacturer claims to have made a surf specific hull?
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-14-2014, 8:25 AM Reply   
Surfsystem = Anything added to a boat that encourages a guy to take a low angle photo of his wake with no one on it and create a whole new thread about it.

Seriously, stop posting photos of wakes/waves and start posting photos of trick/maneuvers/whatever they are called.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-14-2014, 8:26 AM Reply   
So, if a mechanical device is used to compensate for a poor hull design, then wouldn't the use of ballast be for the same? In both examples, we are altering the normal characteristics of the boat, in order to produce the wave. If thats the case, then every surf boat out there is a poor hull design.

Not calling any boat manufacturer out as having a poor hull design by any means, just offering a counter point to a statement, simply for the sake of discussion.
Old     (phathom)      Join Date: Jun 2013       10-14-2014, 9:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggator View Post
Which manufacturer claims to have made a surf specific hull?
Supreme and Centurion
Old     (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       10-14-2014, 2:23 PM Reply   
Surf System : OVER RATED
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       10-14-2014, 2:31 PM Reply   
Ballast is pretty much always going to be a reality for surfing. Why? Because it's silly to make a boat that weighs 8000 pounds all the time. Pretty much everyone wants the benefits of an unweighted boat for doing other activities, even for motoring from point A to point B.

That said:

Surf system is some kind of add on device that facilitates making a better surf wave vs only weighting the boat. Typically they are marketed to allow for even weighting and/or fast side-to-side changeovers.

I wouldn't say that you need any of the above requirements (even weighting, fast changeovers, etc) for it to be a "surf system", because the application might have specific goals that aren't all encompassing.

For example, a "ghetto gate" that's only installed on one side of the hull is most certainly a surf system. But if you only have one, there's no fast changeover. Some people will use them evenly weighted, yet others will use them listed to clean/lengthen the pocket.

I would say that most of them use delayed convergence.

I wouldn't call a "mud flap" to clean up the prop wash or smooth out the wave a surf system though. I wouldn't call a Malibu wedge a surf system.

The Surf systems that I'm aware of include:
- Malibu/Axis Surf Gate (and the various knockoffs)
- Nautique Surf System (Pavati Surf system ripoff of the NSS, and other knockoffs)
- Switchblade (of course one could argue this based on the fact that I excluded the Wedge)
- Centurion Cats fin
- Mastercraft surf tabs
- Supra Swell (and MB Sports Switch knockoff)
- Moomba Flow


The Tige Convex VX is debatable, but it most certainly extends the effective hull length.
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-14-2014, 4:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
The Tige Convex VX is debatable, but it most certainly extends the effective hull length.
What about the new for 2015 AVX? Its a movable device thats controlled by the driver from the helm.

Quote:
For example, a "ghetto gate" that's only installed on one side of the hull is most certainly a surf system
But a totally manually deployed system is? Whats makes the Moomba Flow a "surf system" but something like the WickedWake not?

Great post by the way, lots of good info to debate.

Last edited by chpthril; 10-14-2014 at 4:21 PM.
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       10-14-2014, 4:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
What about the new for 2015 AVX? Its a movable device thats controlled by the driver from the helm.



But a totally manually deployed system is? Whats makes the Moomba Flow a "surf system" but something like the WickedWake not?

Great post by the way, lots of good info to debate.
Yes, I would consider AVX a surf system then.




Ghetto gate, wicked wave's system (which is just selling ghetto gates to people for a ridiculous price) and Moomba flow ARE all surf systems in my opinion.

If you re-read my post, I said that a ghetto gate "that's only installed on one side of the hull is most certainly a surf system"

When I listed out the surf systems I'm aware of, the ghetto gate and the WickedlyoverpricedWake gate are both covered under "Malibu/Axis Surf Gate (and the various knockoffs) "
Old     (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-14-2014, 4:39 PM Reply   
My bad, I did misread your post, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-14-2014, 5:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
Seriously, stop posting photos of wakes/waves and start posting photos of trick/maneuvers/whatever they are called.
See, you can't do the tricks until you have the best photo of your wave to prove that it wasn't possible without said wave.
Old     (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       10-15-2014, 4:42 AM Reply   
To me a surf system is anything that enhances the wave besides ballast. So all of the above enhancements except ballast would be part of a surf system. Some surf systems allow for switching on the fly while others allow for wave enhancement only. A ghetto gate and wicked wake are systems too. Only they are used for a single side.
Old     (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-15-2014, 9:44 AM Reply   
^^^ I agree with Robert
Old     (trayson)      Join Date: May 2013       10-15-2014, 9:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
To me a surf system is anything that enhances the wave besides ballast. So all of the above enhancements except ballast would be part of a surf system. Some surf systems allow for switching on the fly while others allow for wave enhancement only. A ghetto gate and wicked wake are systems too. Only they are used for a single side.
Yes, but I would have to say that a trim tab (or wakeplate as they're often called) isn't a surf system. I most certainly use my wakeplate to fine tune my surf wave. BUT, It's part of the overall boat management... So, something that is used more universally to manage the boat's performance would fall outside the definition of a surf system.
Old     (steveo142)      Join Date: Dec 2012       10-20-2014, 12:54 AM Reply   
Mv10 se, ppp

Last edited by steveo142; 10-20-2014 at 12:57 AM. Reason: SP
Old     (Kwclark)      Join Date: Oct 2013       05-06-2015, 1:20 PM Reply   
Surf system on my slalom boat
Attached Images
 
Old     (Kwclark)      Join Date: Oct 2013       05-06-2015, 1:23 PM Reply   
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5oUNNfiKAeo

This is what the surf system did to my slalom boat.
Old     (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Midlothian TX       05-09-2015, 7:31 AM Reply   
I'm inclined to agree that the definition of a surf system is anything other than ballast that is used to fine tune the wave. The reason I say that is because ballast is also used in other aspects of wake sports too, so I wouldn't consider it surf specific, and in some cases not totally necessary to surf. Basically any physical device on the exterior of the boat that alters or helps define the surf wave. So all of the gates, NSS, VX/AVX, Swell, etc. are all surf systems in my book. Things like Ram Fill and other ballast systems are not, those are just convenient options that speed up the weighting process. Pretty much the only system that falls into a gray area would be the Malibu Wedge, but I'd say it's not since it wasn't originally designed with surfing in mind. It just happened to be good for helping shape the surf wake also.
Old    dbrayton1            05-22-2015, 7:22 AM Reply   
Like this...

http://youtu.be/rYh4aAKdf2w

Shameless plug 😉

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