Going Big

Hey guys im just bored and sittin around my computer thinking about wakeboarding. I was thinking about going big and relating it to other sports kinda like snowboarding. I see so many pro wakeboarders doing all thier tricks w2w or not very far into the flats or not at all. Then also it seems like guys dont do enough double ups. When i think about snowboarding and how it is in the media and those guys go BIG. One of my boys growing up is a very successful pro snowboarder (Kurt Wastell) and last night we kept talkin bout wakeboarding over a beer and kurt had peter line in town which was a dream to meet him but we had a few beers and talked about wakeboarding quite a bit. Its pretty cool to here what Peter has to say about wakeboarding considering he started Forum snowboards and is a big baller. We'll they both laugh and aggree wakeboarders go too little way too much. Theyd didnt even refer to it as going small but "wakeboarders go little" As Kurt put it with snowboarding, "Lets get real, do you really think a judge/snowboarder/cameraman would wanna see some add-a-180 flippy gymnastaic trick over a 40 foot hit or a big slow backside 180 over a 100 foot hit." One point i liked what Peter said was saying is that he sees wakeboarding on tv and it seems like a big gymnastaic contest that rarely goes higher than like 8 feet off the water. he laughs cuz he said only maybe once they go big and do something cool or worth watching then i explained to him thats what a double up is and so forth. So now im thinking all day bout how cool it was to meet peter and drink with him but then it sucks what they think about wakeboarding even though they do it and have fun with it. Ive been competeing snowboarding on the amature level for the past while and when i think about it, imagine a snowboard contest run or whatever but all hard tricks on all the little jumps with one big jump at the end and rails in between. Thats how wakeboarding is right now when somehow the guys should be going huge off dubs the whole time. Kurt and Peter are in town for two more days so ill talk to them some more tonight and try and get some feedback but one thing they wouldnt stop talking about is wakeskating since they both rip hard on skateboards. k ill stop rambling now

It really depends on the trick and the rider. When it comes to mobes, a lot of riders do take them wake to wake instead of into the flat, except for maybe Harris.

Although I believe that snowboarders have much more at stake when it comes to crashing, Wakeboarding tricks are a lot more technical. Aren't there more than double the snowboarding tricks in wakeboarding?

It's just a trade off. You can't go as big on a wakeboard, but on the other hand you can do a lot more tricks. It's just different. That's like comparing motocross jumping to BMX jumping. One is more tech, one is bigger, right?

i agree with J-Rod it depends on the trick and rider, darin shapiro takes most of his tricks into the flats. but when i watched snowboarding on tv all i ever see are spins, granted they are 900's and 1080's but there arnt really that many inverted tricks being throw unlike wakeboarding where most of the tricks in competition are inverted.

wakeboarding tricks are just more technical than most snowboarding tricks even if they dont get as much air.

You also have to remember that Snowboarders are always landing on a downhill ramp. Have a couple of those guys land a 12' jump on flat land and see how long thier knees last. I'm not saying the snowboarders don't go big, but I haven't found a downhill lake yet.

Matt - I agree I don't like to see some add-a-180 flippy gymnastic trick, but that's what the judges like, and you have to do well in contests to make a living at the sport of wakeboarding.

I'd rather seen a spin than a flip any day.

I'd rather seen a slow grabbed 5 than a 9 or a 10 any day too.

John - you also have an excellent point.

Wakeboarding is much younger than snowboarding. Imagine what a snowboarding competition was like 5 years ago. 5 years from now a wakeboarding competition may closer resemble a snowboarding competition of today.

When the wake is clean at 100 feet back at 25-28 mph that's when wakeboarders will be going big. Imagine that.

"but I haven't found a downhill lake yet."

Maybe we should hit up Niagra??...

Then we could go big LOL

well unfortunatly, wakeboarders are very limited to the size of their jumps. I mean really nothing can compare to a backcountry booter. but I do very much agree with the flippy,gymnastic throw another 180 in there for the judges, it's something that needs to go. I would rather see a huge method than some hucked flip with a spin in it.
I think Thane said it best.
tell me more about there wakeskating convo....

two different sports ,enough said..let each live withing their means..

BTW why dont you invite your snowboarding buddies out with you sometime and see how it is on the other side and get a real oppinion on it from behind the boat..

PS Shapiro,harris,bonifay,sharpe and a few others go pretty big most of the time plus RIP Mark kenney went huge on everything..

our sport isnt all about going big it is more tech but has its moments..

i guess i said more then one line wasnt enough ;)

Add some warm weather, beers, and girls in bikinis and I think you would have snowboarding beat!

how about the fact what we land on a flat surface, when a snowboarder goes big they have to land on a down slope, i would love to see a snowboarder take a 12ft drop off a jump and land flat and solid. I am a much better snowboarder than a wakeboarder and am a lot more fearful of falls on my wakeboard than snowboard. Our height and "going big" isn't because were a new sport or don't have the tools or balls to do it, its because we physically can't. The tricks we do are the tricks that are capable with the hight acheivable. Snowboarders have runways, they carry their momentum through the jump and landing, and they don't have a rope. Its just a different sport, its like telling its like telling a basketball player that they don't shoot from far enough away often enough like the baseball players swinging for the fences.

Another point is that wakeboarders are using a very technical approach to the wake to get 8-10 feet or air off a 2 foot tall 4 foot long wake. Snowboarders may go bigger than us, but they also hit 10-20 foot tall 20-40 foot long kickers, plus it is not as technical....they just have to go faster to go bigger. And like John said, the downhill landing not only helps the knees, but tends to make them look like they are way higher above their launch point than they really are.

can i get an AMEN!!!

when snowboarders do a 900 or 1080, they also dont have a rope being pulled by a 4000lb boat with 2000lbs of ballast. The rope is a lot more to compensate for. Snowboarders can do a 720 no problem just by twisting off the ramp, the extra 180 or 360 is just a flip of the hips

I snowboarded all day today and have to say the freedom that you can exert being on a mountain is a lot more than being behind a boat. If I had to choose......damn right wakeboarding it is but different strokes for different folks. I just started hitting rails today too and check out the 12 foot flat to 20 down flat bar i was massacering by the end of the day. http://www.skinc.com/photo.asp?id=208

anywayz you can try to compare surfing to skateboarding or snowboarding or wakeboarding but the differences are obvious and plentiful.

I'm more scared that I will get hurt on a snowboard than wakeboard but I am definetley more scared charging the third roller of a doubleup pumped up from behind my weighted out super air than charging kickers of twice the height potential on a snowboard. The forces counteracting on your body during a double up are kinda crazy to comprehend when you think about it.

i dont think that we should need to try to prove that wakeboarding is just as good or better than snowboarding. althought people may think the sports are very similar, they are actually both very unique and different. i wakeboard and snowboard and have an awesome time doing both cause there totally different. it's like comparing skateboarding to snowboarding. you get next to no air skateboarding and tonnes of airtime snowboarding, and they are still 2 great, popular sports

Both sports have there inherent risks, and thrills. You can equally enjoy both sports if you understand that.

The problem here is, people form their opinions on these sports from watching contest. I can understand why Pete may think wakeboard contest look like gymnastic contest on water. But, I wonder if he ever saw that footage of the Parks, Shane, Chad, and Kyle Schmidt, doing the Uhaul gap slider! I wouldnt exactly call that "going little".
Personally, I think contest in both snowboarding and wakeboarding are kinda stale. Right now the fad in snowboarding slope style contest is basically "spin to win". The only riders I can think of that are throwing inverts in those contest are Travis Rice and Danny Kass, who throws that BIG backside rodeo all the time (Which I think was invented Peter Line by the way).
My point here is, TO MUCH OF THE SAME THING SUCKS!
Judges need to start looking at originality more. I would just like to see things mixed up. I dont want to see spins or inverts go away in either sport. But, whats wrong with busting a huge backside 180, followed by a Pete Rose, followed by a huge method grab?

Hey Matt, next time ask Pete and Kurt what they think of snowblades and soap shoes. That ought to get them off of ripping on wakeboarding for a while. By the way, those two dudes are legends!

Matt, that's awesome that you've been talking with peter line! he's my favorite snowboarder!

As for wakeboarding, it is rather gymnastic and it kind of seems like that's wakeboarding's destiny (you know, how many people choose/want to ride like collin wright?), but cool things happen too. One limiting factor is that taking flat landing after flat landing takes its toll on your knees. At least with snowboarding, you can continue to build a decent transition for landing, regardless (almost, I guess there are limits) of the size of the jump. Anyway, that's the way I see it...and wakeboarding is a slave to the boat.

You should have shown them some wakeskating stuff.

RW stole my thoughts exactly. You watch a snowboarding contest and see Danny Kass do a super-stylie grabbed spin w/ maybe a poke and then you see some "spinning top" do the same trick with a cursory grab and the judges seem to score them the same. Same with straight airs. I think it may just be the nature of a contest that consistency will usually win over style. Tony Hawk seemed to win quite a few contests back in the day even though you could argue that Burnquist (sp?) and Bucky were a lot more stylie.

As for wake v. snow, they're way different. And, both fun in their own ways. The handle gives wakeboarders a unique way to express one's riding. This could be good (hoochie glide, batwings, rewinds, etc.) or bad (hucked flips, jerky riding, etc.). I think it is somewhat harder to look smooth on a wakeboard than a snowboard.

One personal pet peeve that I think that wakeboarders need to work on is more legit grabs...its far easier on the snow to hold your grab through the spin. Too may wakers seem to slap the board without grabbing (including me) as long as we could. Though, with bigger wakes, the quality of the grabs has definitely improved recently...especially at the am, freeriding level (wakepics stuff).

I personally like the direction that wakeboarding is headed. The mags and occasional wakeboard videos I buy show this progress. If Peter Line doesn't like it, so be it. I do.

I'll also add that it is such a continual dissapointment that wakeboarding seems to continually need to justify itself to other members of the action boardsports market.

Many valid points have been made here, such as you don't see wakeboarders landing on a downslope, a distinct advantage to going big on any surface. There's also the laws of physics: a wakeboarders airtime in inherently going to be impacted by the force of holding the line. I'm sure everyone has had a situation where you've launched off the wake and released the line- and you flew much farther (and landed most likely in a heap!)than you would if you held onto the handle.

We could also make a case for wakeboarders carrying more speed into their moves and rails, upping the gnar-gnar factor over virtually anyone other boardsport. And then there's line length, too. It was Randy Harris' downfall during the 2003 comp season- he was riding a long line that compromised timeliness between moves for the chance to go big, which is how he likes to ride. But a longer ine would certainly allow a rider to boost bigger.

In any event, Luke hits it on the head, as does Ryan W. We shouldn't compare apples to oranges because there are the examples of guys like Parks, Sharpe, Murray and a multitude of others doing things involving risk and committment, two things the average person can't gleam about wakeboarding from watching a competition.

I'm a person who makes my living from the competitive wakeboarding market (on the media side) and I certainly know the vast difference between freeriding and competition riding. Competition is about who can perform the best in a static environment while freeriding calls for ingenuity, creativity and at times a huge set of balls.

For the life of me, I'd love people who only know wakeboarding from competition coverage to see Parks Bonifay freeride. Watching his creativity meld with his flowing style is one of the most artistic things you'll ever see in the towed watersports market. He's just so smooth, so pure and so on it that you couldn't help but realize he's a special athlete in a cool sport. And while I feel Parks is at the top of the heap, there are a ton of guys right there with him that have the mad skills to really make wakeboarding look progressive.

Anyway, I respect those folks from outside wakeboarding, especially influential players like Peter Line and Brain Deegan and the like. Their opinions are valid from what they've been exposed to. But if you're close to these people, give 'em a copy of a current wakeboarding flick and show them the real deal. They'll see wakeboarding is much more than two 30 second runs to glory.

I wouldn't be able to survive without both sports!! I'm addicted to both. Every year I go through a 12 step program to get clean, and all 12 steps have to do with riding. HELP ME } it's like a intervention from my wakeboarding friends and snowboarding friends and family. (which I have dragged them all together with both sports) This time of year I'm stretching the snowboard season to meet with Wakeboarding. In about 2 weeks I start my program to get off the "stuff" until I can hit the water.

Good man, reef hunter! I just did my last day (22 in all) snowboarding for the season and my new LF Fish just arrived in the mail today. Now I just have to get somewhere warm enough to get a pull. The water's in the low 40 here in Jersey...

I refuse to call last day (22 so far), I'm heading North next week. It snowed today in Ohio and the water is still frozen in some area's. I'm crazy but not crazy enough to board behind an ice breaker....wait......that's not a bad idea, or is it.

It's kind of funny that this "legitimacy" discussion was being had with snowboarders, because they faced the same kind of obstacles from skaters (you know, skateboarders thought that snowboarding was lame, it was easy because you were attached, etc etc.)

But you know, in time, snowboarding found its place. There will always people that will dislike what you do--you can't please everyone.

Well said, Chef!

I dont think comparison is necessary, nor is being legit to the other party. There are pros and cons to every boardsport, and individuals must find the sport that has all the pros they are looking for and cons they can live with. To be it breaks down to freedom, opportunity, and seasonal availability.

For me, living in Texas, wakeboarding has the most availibility and opportunity, but as you all know, there is no freedom. You are limited in jump height, riding locations, and even the lines you take are dictated by the boat. Im at a point in my riding where I want to branch out and feel freedom like in snowboarding.

Snowboarding has great freedom liked mentioned earlier, but no availability here for me and little opportunity to get somewhere to ride. I only get out once or twice a year. Plus Im not a fan of the cold.

So I found kiteboarding. All the fun on the water, with the big air and freedom of snowboarding. You can ride where you want, when you want and dont need anyone else to go. It has all the freedom and availability, but opportunity is restricted by the wind. Gotta have wind to ride.

Bottom line, do what fits you and is available to you and dont worry about what any other person or sport thinks.

Last i checked, Kurt and Peter mean "0" to wakeboarding. Both those guys are rippers and deserve respect, Peter especially since he started his own board and clothing company, smart dude, but I would not take too much stock in what he thinks about wakeboarding.

Hey guys whats up, well anyway i got to go hang with kurt and peter some more and i brought them some of the best wakeboard footage i have. basically i figured out the only thing those guys wanna see is double ups, rails and wakeskating. they tripped on randy harris and chris williams. i showed them randy harris's section in natural born thrillaz and they got lots of respect now when they see that stuff. so many big double ups and same with randys rection in outkast. they also tripepd on this demo vid i have of chris williams cuz its all 20 foot high double ups and triple ups doing all those rodeo tricks he made up. peter and kurt kept rewinding this one trick chris does where he is wrapped up blind and does a method grabbed backside rodeo off the triple up then he last second passed the handle and goes 5 seriously at least 20 feet high. peter tripped cuz he invented that trick but now chris does it on the water. anyway peter said hes is buying a wakeskate when he gets back home he said so thats way cool and kurt wants to build rails and get a winch.

Sweet! Good work, matt!