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Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-03-2007, 1:56 AM Reply   
angrymike- i have a couple questions for you..would you please consider them before you answer.

-do you understand what the technical discussions of this post ?
-do you understand "what happened " ?
-do you really want me to answer your questions in your post?

since yout took a shot over the bow, you might want to go back and re-read the post it till you understand what is being said(technical) and what was being said (in between the lines) because you missed both of them...

and then please let know if you would still like me to answer your questions...

mike
Old     (angrygolucky)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-03-2007, 2:44 AM Reply   
Caddy,
Please don't be an ass. I understand most of the theory regarding amps impedance, and speakers. I also understand phase and balanced signals as I deal with those more often work. The studios I work in have techs for the other stuff. I have never claimed to be a know-it-all. In fact, I stated as much before, and have enjoyed reading thses posts and trying to differentiate good points from b.s. ( also learning about new products..whether I like them or not is a different story)
You've been correct with a number of points, and I've never posted saying " you or anyone is wrong!" I actually thought you were dead on about a few points such as higher resistance results in an amp working harder. Thats why I was surprised a lot of amps on the consumer end were running @ 2 ohms..

Maybe I should have been clearer in my last post about "misleading" information.
In your last post you freaked about a dual voice coil speaker, and the misleading from that.
In mikeski's post he states in plain english...
" This diagram shows a dual voice coil speaker so you will have to use your imagination and understand that this connection is the same as what is described in the second Rockford Fosgate diagram above. The amp doesn't care where the voice coil is located. "
That does NOT sound misleading to me.
As for the shot over the bow? You're implications of manufaturers having undue influence come off as paranoid. Flat out say it in a post then. Are you accusing mikeski of working for a company? I default to the "so What?" approach on that. Besides I dont recall him pushing a product. Or are you referring to someone else?

Is there something going on that we can't read here? Sure, I'd love the answers to the questions and I'm sure anyone who's still reading this hijacked post would love to also.
Thanks.


(Message edited by angrygolucky on March 03, 2007)
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-03-2007, 4:50 AM Reply   
I gotta say this thread has been good. For one, with all the diagrams being posted no one should ever ask how to wire parrallel vs. series. I almost think the big three posting here might actually be friends or should at least give each other nooggies and get it over with.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-03-2007, 8:35 AM Reply   
angrymike - i'm not being an azz..there is a clear differentation between car and home audio...what works in one may not work in the other as i hae stated and have also stated from "the website offered"...

there have been a couple of threads about running this pretty pricey setup. it is a good setup if done correctly and a crappy one if wrong.. for starters for this setup to sound good and have wide disperation all the speakers need to be in mono...i have done listening test with both...there is too much sound in the center and very little to the outside..i am not saying it cant be done in stereo and a mono signal center, it can but it sounds like azz...

now with that being said..that leaves this setup to a mono signal operation...if the amp doesnt have a mixed mono switch, then it has to be wired as described in option 2.. the pair will be run as 2 ohms parallel or 8 ohms series - that is what the amp load will see..

which now asks the question - 8 ohms vs 2 ohms off a bridged amp ?

- 2 ohms off a bridged amp works great no problem. however, amps that can run 2 ohms when bridged are generally very, very, very high quality amps and very $$$$$...any amp can double its output when bridged into 4 ohms...however to double it AGAIN take a very high quality amp with a huge, i do mean huge power supply...

here is a example of a 4 x 100 amp when bridged for this setup off both channels...

200 x 1 @ 4 ohms
400 x 1 @ 2 ohms (most 4 channel amps cant do this, some can but are generally pretty $$$ amps. btw, there are some old school amps that can do this)

now lets take a look at 8 ohms off a bridged car amp..

you wouldnt think this would be a problem...but it is...mobile audio is designed around 4 ohms..

Most car audio equipment is designed to operate into lower impedance loads (4 ohms or less).

car audio amps are designed for low voltage (12v), high current output(2-4 ohms) unlike home audio which is the exact opposite as stated from the website..

if you can find a car amp that can run into 8 ohms without causing damage, then your okay. no problem, good to go.etc..

however, there are very few car amps that can run at 8 ohms(jl slash series being one of them) i am sure there are others that i am not aware of..

regardless of the point, unless it uniquely designed to run at 8 ohms (ie rare) chances are it will cause damage as in the case of some zapco's...think about it..it would take a very sophisticated power supply to double it power when bridged (at 4 ohms) and then be reduced because of the 8 ohms resistive load.. all i suggested was to check with the manufacture before you pull the trigger so damage is not caused...

you can show a svc setup like i did or a dual voice coil setup and NO MATTER WHAT...THE AMP WILL SEE A 8 OHM LOAD- THAT IS EVEN STATED IN HIS DRAWING AND IN HIS DIAGRAM AS LISTED BELOW..
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-03-2007, 8:42 AM Reply   
more..in looking at it...both diagrams present a 8 ohm load to the amp (this is important) and 4 ohm load to each speaker (not important since this how they are designed)

Upload


Upload
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-03-2007, 9:22 AM Reply   
now this is very, very obvious and 6th grade stuff as mentioned above..

but for some reason, i have been accused of
-misleading
-misrepresentation
-joking around
-messing around
-dont know what i am talking about..
-sending erroneous emails (WTF !!!)
-zapco lover

my post have been technically spot on (obviously) about the diagrams, impedence, and differences between mobile and home stereo.

others have been very misleading with the intent to deceive (if they were mistaken, maybe they should admit it but instead they post a scenario about a email sent about joking/messing around-this is childish action coming from a knowledgeable educated person - i cant believe the author would stoop that low and do something like this rather than admit he is wrong..)

to answer what seems to be the obvious love for zapco's..beside running them, i have also like tru, arc, mmats, auddison, milbert, older kicker zr, and harmon kardon, original a/d/s amps, ppi water cooled and original art series, and a couple others...

why do i reccomend a zapco 1000/4 in this setup ? many reasons:
- mixed mono switch on all of it channels..you can wire the pair as a stereo pair on channels 1 & 2 (amp sees a 4 ohm load -but feed them a mixed mono signal at the preamp level). all the channel of the amp are running at 4 ohms (125x2 and 250x1)..

you have just solved all hassles of ruuning a 2 ohm mono load ($$$$ amp) or 8 ohm mono amp (causing damage/limited output) because the amp has a mixed mono switch not to mention built in line drivers and volume control via symbilink if needed (i run a all balanced signal including head unit (dual differential outputs @ 16 volts and a seperate volume control for the towers and easy to reach line level switch if a low output source is used like a 1 volt ipod)

now if anyone knows of a reliable amp that can run this setup at described above (2 singles and 1 dual) at all mono at 4 ohms and that is reliable and cost less- or any reliable amp that can run at 2 or 8 ohms bridged - please list it...

angrymike - with that being said. are you still requesting me to answer the rest of your questions.. if i were to be more specific i am sure certain manufactures would start crying foul and send dave williams emails requesting to remove the post..

btw, google search on me is a bit excessive / stalker...you might want to talk to a professional psychologist about this...seriously dude you are reaching..

but to answer your question..yes i did buy a zapco hat off eaby and i did pay full price for it...so if that is your attempt to somehow prove a point..i dont get it, since i have also bought a 1100/1, 500/1, and recently sold a 350.2 off ebay as well under "clubmyke" and have pretty good feedback also as buyer and seller..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 03, 2007)
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-03-2007, 10:43 AM Reply   
Angrymike -

Don't get suckered like I did, he's yankin' your chain now.
Old     (aquahawk)      Join Date: Feb 2005       03-03-2007, 10:45 AM Reply   
I say you just get a threesome and listen for "ohm, ohm, ohm, yeah, right there, ohm, ohm ohm"

lmfao
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-03-2007, 1:19 PM Reply   
mikeski~please stop embarrassing yourself...your advice was all over the place wrong.

what was even worse was your high schoolish immauture posting about me sending you and email...

it is pretty obvious you debate like a girl and would rather attack a person than the information presented (the king isn't wearing any clothes ~ remember that one?)

I did no such thing and when we meet in person(we will sooner or later..I have friends in your neck of the woods) I am going to have some words with you about this erroneous lie~ ylsos

act like an adult and take responsabilty...
Old     (angrygolucky)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-03-2007, 3:22 PM Reply   
Ewing, I agree, I've enjoyed this post because of diagrams and data and opinion.

Mikeski... Yes, I kinda got suckered in. When I see someone posting who is clearly taking shots at people/talking down to people, it bugs the hell out of me. You got suckered in, but you helped keep the chain-yankin rolling along.
We all did!

Caddy, no, not a "stalker" just trying to figure out your angle in understanding where some of the perceived hostility is coming from. The information superhighway is right at our fingertips! Excessive in taking 15 seconds to type a search engine? Whew I almost broke a sweat! ( and yes I'm just joking, not insulting)
I am not faulting you for suggesting a certain amp/brand for certain reasons. We all have things we like. That was one of my previous points.
It's obvious to see you and mikeski have a little history, and I have been suckered into your pissing match. You have been just as attacking as he has!
Don't forget my intro into this thread had only to due with mono considerations of the 485, appropriate setup of the threesome setup, and music sonically collapsing to mono. Some of your responses, I agreed with, some points i didn't, but a few were borderline insulting. Especally the one regarding the 485 being a "mono box". My earlier posts had asked specifically about that to clear up misinformation. So when I see you didn't read that part, and you overlooked some info in a response to you, I will question that. It's happened a couple of times, and I have given examples.
As far as the rest of it goes, please find your sense of humor. I think somewhere in the thread you lost it and took some of this too personally. I think mikeski's "high schoolish" post was meant to be funny, and you either too caught up to see that, or you have a different sense of humor than he does. Some humor doesn't type well.
Play nice peeps!
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-03-2007, 3:55 PM Reply   
angrymike - yes there is history here from other posts on this matter...please excuse my tone. but i think it is pretty pathetic what some manufactures will do to indirectly promote their product to generate sales...

if you think spending $2500 and up on a inferior setup that wont work in the long run is cool...then i am glad you can sleep at night..

not to mention i have been personally emailed about this configuration by certain manufactures on how to do it (i wont mention any names so they arent embarrassed.. but all this shows is a greedy manufacture who cares more about sales than meeting customers needs and exceeding their expectations) there are better setups imo for the same or less money and are easier to do..

keep in mind some of the people who responded have a financial interest or have financially benefited and their advice tilted to driving sales of a expensive inferior system design..

in regards to mono vs stereo behind a boat -take a listen in the center of the wake and to sides..all i am stating is my experience..like anything take a listen - ymmv...

in regards to mikeski post about me sending him email- it is a lie.. i didnt and i take offense to it..it's a poor attempt for him to save face over something insignificant as this (lsos imo). btw, if you dont know lsos means drop me a email and i will let you know.

imo, it is a pretty smart individual selling his integrity to indirectly promote a product that he got a industry accomadation price on..
Old     (angrygolucky)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-03-2007, 4:56 PM Reply   
Ok, I'm sure stuff like that happens all the time. Is it pathetic? Or is it marketing in the modern age? Record labels do this all the time, especially given that sales of music is down overall. I just take stuff like that as a given. In re-reading the beginning of the post, I'm not sure I saw any product getting unnessarily pimped here. ( except maybe zapco! just kidding!)

I will debate the mono versus stereo thing 'till I'm blue in the face. I'm sure from a p.a. dispersion perspective, mono is great. And it will sound awesome on music from the 50's, 60's and dance music! ( all mono to begin with)
It's not how most modern stuff was intended to be heard, and most of it sounds lousier in mono. On things I mix I spend a lot of time a/b'ing in mono to know how it cancels and that it cancels favorably. Even the most favorable mono collaped mixes sound different than intended in stereo. I, personally, would rather not listen that way, whether it be in the boat, on the swim platform, 10 feet behind, or up to 75 ft. behind.
So take your pick, do you want your cancellation before it ever comes out of the speakers, or do you want it happening behind the boat. I'll take my chances with the cancellation behind the boat, and know that when it comes out the speakers it was optimal. As you stated ymmv, this is one of those that i'll agree to disagree.

It would be interesting to A/B these setups sometime from various listening points. Might make for a great article for someone, if it hasn't been done already.

(Message edited by angrygolucky on March 03, 2007)
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-03-2007, 7:41 PM Reply   
I am not lying, I have received a message from Clubmyke (or at least somebody claiming to be him).

I did not sell my integrity to promote a product, he claims I did because that's what he attempted and failed. I was unaware of the history between Clubmyke and WetSounds until very recently. I have proof that I am happy to post it if needed.

Last year I was speaking with Grant about the installation of my golf cart batteries, during the conversation he asked if I would be willing to let he and Clay use my boat as a platform for the testing between a pair of WetSounds and a pair of NVS speakers. At the end of the test they asked if they could leave the speakers on my boat for the spring ride since we were all going in my boat. They looked good, sounded good, so why not, they remained on my boat for that weekend. I never intended on keeping them at that point. Over the course of the summer I developed a liking to the speakers and started saving money to pay for them. At the end of the summer I made a deal with Clay that included a cash payment well over $1000 and the agreement to pay the rest in trade for LEDs.

Now my history with Clubmyke, it was quite positive until this thread and another recent WetSounds thread. I considered him a friend, we had talked about doing a houseboat together, shared stories on the phone, have the same boat, etc. I regret that I let myself get dragged into the mud in this thread. All of my posts were intended to bring clarity to the issue, all of them were based on clear engineering that I practice daily. Some included an attempt at humor, some included a little venting with my frustration. When it was brought to my attention that his intentions were not to bring clarity or understand the issues I felt like I was the brunt of a very cruel joke. Now the attack has become personal.

Clubmyke, you are extremely self centered. As far as I am concerned I hope your F'ing boat sinks next time you go out. In my opinion you are a jerk, and a menace to this forum. The only thing that makes me happy is knowing that we live 300 miles from each other and that I will not run across you on any of my outings.
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-03-2007, 7:50 PM Reply   
So I guess to sum it all up. Tim wanted to know about what amp to use. I guess you should get at least a 3 channel amp but a 4 channel could be used. If you were choosing brands one grouping would be kicker or rockford. If you wanted to take a step up maybe the alpine or eclipse would be something to consider. Finally if you wanted to be closer to higher end then Zapco, Arc Audio, Cadence, or Memphis might be on your list. Generally, it can be summed up that as one spends more money on amps SQ, power, and reliability should go up. As far as mono vs. stereo and 2-4-8 ohm stuff we might need to start another forum for that and let the three mikes/mykes be the moderators. I think you all seem pretty intelligent and very passionate about this subject.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-04-2007, 1:24 AM Reply   
I am not lying, I have received a message from Clubmyke (or at least somebody claiming to be him).
nope wasn't me...not even close..nice attempt to save face but not me in any way...btw, mikeski you forgot to mention the email you sent to me asking me to call you regarding this (do you remember that ?) i didnt call you nor did i respond because it was obvious what you wanted..

I did not sell my integrity to promote a product, he claims I did because that's what he attempted and failed. I was unaware of the history between Clubmyke and WetSounds until very recently. I have proof that I am happy to post it if needed. funny you should mention this...i did recieve a email asking how i would wire a trio like this ?(i alluded to this earlier)...either they didnt know and wanted to find out or the intention was to see if i knew...my response was basically - are you serious ? ...you dont know ? (if you honestly don't know and you are selling tower speakers and promoting this setup, havent you investigated it first with a experienced shop and amp manufacture ?)..btw, mikeski, i find the collaboration between wetsounds and you about a email they sent to me very interesting..

Last year I was speaking with Grant about the installation of my golf cart batteries, during the conversation he asked if I would be willing to let he and Clay use my boat as a platform for the testing between a pair of WetSounds and a pair of NVS speakers. At the end of the test they asked if they could leave the speakers on my boat for the spring ride since we were all going in my boat. They looked good, sounded good, so why not, they remained on my boat for that weekend. I never intended on keeping them at that point. Over the course of the summer I developed a liking to the speakers and started saving money to pay for them. At the end of the summer I made a deal with Clay that included a cash payment well over $1000 and the agreement to pay the rest in trade for LEDs.

thanks for clearing that up...

Now my history with Clubmyke, it was quite positive until this thread and another recent WetSounds thread. I considered him a friend, we had talked about doing a houseboat together, shared stories on the phone, have the same boat, etc. I regret that I let myself get dragged into the mud in this thread. All of my posts were intended to bring clarity to the issue, all of them were based on clear engineering that I practice daily. Some included an attempt at humor, some included a little venting with my frustration. When it was brought to my attention that his intentions were not to bring clarity or understand the issues I felt like I was the brunt of a very cruel joke. Now the attack has become personal.

i believe you intent was not to bring clarity to the issues..all you did was cloud it..some how you fail miserbly to distinguish between ohms(resistence) at the amp vs the speaker..8 ohms doesnt cut it car audio..sorry...if it comes down to believing an amp manufacture tech support department or a someone on a web board (it is pretty obvious- call tech support to confirm)

you are posting errounous information and fail to make a distinction between 120v and 12v...the rules are different for each as clearly stated in your website... i think most of the readers agree that the diagrams off the websites are much more useful than the technical mumbo jumbo that either of us attempt to expound upon..

Clubmyke, you are extremely self centered. As far as I am concerned I hope your F'ing boat sinks next time you go out. In my opinion you are a jerk, and a menace to this forum. The only thing that makes me happy is knowing that we live 300 miles from each other and that I will not run across you on any of my outings.

mike, i wish the best boating and audio experience for you, your friends, and family.. i pray no ill will upon you or your ride ever...

let me know the next time in the area and i'll buy you lunch at phil's bbq in san diego (best in town) and you can take as many shots at me as you like if it will make you feel any better just because you got "called out", questioned, and proven wrong...

btw, i am really quite surprised by your last post since it is obviously immature and hostile. did you intentionally do this so dave would pull the thread ?

ewing - thanks for bringing this "down" to a sane level..

-sounds good on paper but 2 of trade never agree

-stereo vs mono - listen for yourself..

- 2/4/8 ohms - this has been covered ad naseam - check with the manufacture...

remember there are a lot more important things to worry about than this....

peace out,

mike

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 04, 2007)
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-04-2007, 1:33 AM Reply   
angrymike - It would be interesting to A/B these setups sometime from various listening points. Might make for a great article for someone, if it hasn't been done already.

i have done it... i have a zapco 1100.1 on board as well as the 1000.4... to my ears(and others) - the mono signal sounds louder and far better dispersion.. this also has been reported for a couple of years..

hope that helps,


mike
Old     (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-04-2007, 2:09 AM Reply   
I'm dizzy
Old     (angrygolucky)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-04-2007, 2:12 AM Reply   
Yes, I'm sure the dispersion would be better,
but your source material is sonically optimal in stereo. Frequencies will cancel. Some things will sound better than others. Some mixes will sound like ass because there's a lot of cancellation.

A Mono system will NEVER sound better to me, and this might be from a MUSICAL point of view not a technical one. Remember, I posted earlier, it's not just @ 75 ft for me. Its in the boat, its on the swim platform AND its behind the boat. To each his own.

I opted for the wetsounds because they are loud, clear, and have a wider field of dispersion compared to other speakers. That should help compensate the fact that I do not have, and never will have a mono system. The only time I listen in mono is when I have to for work to hear any phase cancellation. Otherwise, I don't want to listen in mono. Ever.

And when I said A/Bing systems be interesting, I meant for myself, or with a group who can weigh in on it. Not just us posting our opinions. It's not something we can effectively debate without hearing. Especially given various source material that would collapse differently.

I think the horse just died. ( or did it die a while ago? )

Good luck all, and bottom line, when all is said and done.....
DOES IT SOUND GOOD????????
Old     (wakeprodigy)      Join Date: Oct 2002       03-04-2007, 10:15 AM Reply   
I'm not going to get into the which sounds better stereo vs. mono debate. However, there are a couple of issues that I feel need to be clarified.

Caddy, please do not take me trying to clarify a technical issue as a personal attack. This is in no way an attempt to attack you.

First, a speaker is a complex load (Impedance)not a purely resistive load.

Second,
-two 4 ohm speakers wired in series give a 8 ohm load.
-two 4 ohm speakers wired in parallel give a 2 ohm load.
-A 2 channel amp wired with a 4 ohm speaker on each channel is the same as a 2 channel amp bridged pushing an 8 ohm load (the amp sees the same load). Similarily, the same amp with a 2 ohm speaker on each channel is the same as the amp bridged pushing 4 ohms. So, if an amplifier is rated for 4 ohms stereo it will also be fine for 8 ohms mono. However, this is generally not done because you wouldn't be using the amp to its full potential (you won't get as much power at 8 ohms mono as you will 4 ohms mono). This is what I believe Mikeski was trying to get across, and at some point it became misinterpreted.

Cheers!
Tom

(Message edited by wakeprodigy on March 04, 2007)
Old     (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-04-2007, 10:53 AM Reply   
Drip Drip Drip
Old     (aquahawk)      Join Date: Feb 2005       03-04-2007, 10:54 AM Reply   
Someone call Jerry Springer I got a debate I wanna see live. :-)
Old     (audiopro74)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-04-2007, 10:56 AM Reply   
Hey Tom

When you coming back to cali for session. I promise not to play as much hip-hop this time
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-04-2007, 11:00 AM Reply   
tom,

agree...agree..agree..

disagree - So, if an amplifier is rated for 4 ohms stereo it will also be fine for 8 ohms mono.

not always.. it SHOULD theoretically however in the world of car amps.. 8 ohms can cause damage in some cases to CAR amplifiers- check with the CAR amp maufacture before running 6-8 ohms...(no offense but does anyone get this ?)

i almost damaged a pretty $$$ amp running 6 ohms..
Old     (wakeprodigy)      Join Date: Oct 2002       03-04-2007, 11:17 AM Reply   
Chris,
what's up man long time. I was going to try and head out there for spring ride, but work and other has got me bogged down. Not sure when the next time I'll make it back will be...probably June/July.

caddy,
About the 4 ohm stereo = 8 ohm mono. I've never run an car amp in 8 ohm mono, but theoretically an 8 ohm mono load is the same as a 4 ohm stereo load. The reason I concluded that running an amp in 8 ohm mono is fine is due to the fact that the amp is designed for a 4 ohm stereo load, which is the same loading as 8 ohm mono. Are you asking if anyone gets that they should check with the manufacturer about running 8 ohm mono or if anyone gets why 4 ohm stereo is the same as 8 ohm mono?

Tom

(Message edited by wakeprodigy on March 04, 2007)

(Message edited by wakeprodigy on March 04, 2007)
Old     (sangerlover)      Join Date: Sep 2005       03-04-2007, 11:22 AM Reply   
Take the high road and move on. This thread has turned to crap!!!!!!
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-04-2007, 2:25 PM Reply   
Are you asking if anyone gets that they should check with the manufacturer about running 8 ohm mono

YES..YES.YES.... for instance (i am going to say the "z" word) check with Robert at zapco about this... running in 8 ohms will cause damage to some of their amps.. (HOW MANY TIMES DOES THIS HAVE TO BE REPEATED ???? DO YOU NOT GET IT???)

go back and read in the thread the differences between 120v vs 12v...

this is beating a dead horse.. btw, angrymike- the caption is pretty base (bad taste imo..)
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-04-2007, 2:49 PM Reply   
Hey guys,

I have stayed off this post and many others because I have chosen not to get into the middle of certain debates or with certain people. I have chosen not to get onto to posts that Clubmyke posts on because he has something against me and Wet Sounds. This is clear in the repeated remarks made on this post and pretty much any other post that has Wet Sounds.

I will try to clarify once and for all.

Clubmyke, I do not know what you have against me or Wet Sounds or why you feel it is necessary to attack my products or something as simple as how to run the 3-Some.

To clarify to EVERYONE about the remarks that have been made and the false accusations.

Clubmyke. The ONLY times I have EVER e mailed you was to ask you to quit slandering my product and this e mail saying. “Why would you say such a thing?”

---On 2/2/07 12:29 PM, "Tim White" <twhite@wetsounds.com> wrote:
Mike,

Noticed you comments on saying the 3-Some is hard to run. Can you explain to me why you think that? Not understanding why you think that.

Tim White


For anyone else in the world. They would read that as a manufacturer trying to help out a confused consumer. You. And wondering why you would say things like that and confuse other people. For you to think anyone was asking your opinion makes me laugh.

This was your response.

---Tim,

Not trying to sound offensive...but are you kidding ? I may be missing something but if there is a different way to wire/run a 3rd different speaker then please let me know...if the center speaker was wired along with the center speaker off a 2 channel amp then it take the majority of the amps power (if I remember right, the 485 would get 66% of the amps power and the pair of 85’s would only get 33%)


If your not, then I would suggest picking the deck you would and consider the amount of outputs and maybe a line driver, amp/amps, and method to control the volume (pac, eq, or symbilink ) since it would require a 4 channel amp that is bridgeable to 3 channel full range (with separate gain controls to adjust the output) or a 2 channel amp with a 1 channel amp or a 2 channel amp with separate gain controls running a mono signal or a 2 channel amp with separate gains running a mono signal.....

4 identical single 4 ohm tower speakers each pair wired to a 2 ohm load with a stereo amp(heck if a lot easier, heck you could even do 3 identical speakers) would be better than 2 4 ohm speaker (pro 80’s) and a single 485 (4 ohm load)

Mike


I have realized that you are an individual that is always right no matter what. I had sent you another e mail asking you to lay out off the repeated attempts and slanderous remarks about my products. I even clarified some of your false remarks about the PRO 80 you had made in past posts. You kept saying there was no crossover and the horn was a Motorola piezo.

---Mike,

I keep noticing a lot of mis information regarding our products from you on your posts on wakeworld. There IS a crossover on the PRO 80's. No IT IS NOT a Motorola or piezo tweeter. It is a titanium HLCD. Same as in the PRO485 but smaller magnet. I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinions but if you could please back off on the comments. It feels like you are on a mission to hurt us and our product.

Tim


As you can see I have been very nice on all e mails just asking you to respect what you say and telling you that you are WRONG on your assumptions about the product.

This was your response.

---tim,

i am not on a mission to hurt your product... i have been a audiophile for a number of years (car and home) and hence i have a tendancy to have a very critical ear.. with that being said, i dont think i am that far off.. there may be a crossover, but not on the tweeter (or at least there is no attenuation... in fact i would bet money on it..) in regards to the horn....i dont know if it is a custom unit.... but it does look very close to the motorola piezzo.. the wetsounds is a very good product in terms of fit & finish. however the speaker needs work in the "voicing" department in terms of crossover and the throat horn (dispersion). imo, it is a work in progress. with a little tweeking it would be a excellent product. this is painfully obvious... i dont mean for you to take offense however, it is a "honest" observation... i may be off in terms of the horn mfg (it looks like a motorola), but i am correct on the voicing and the crossover on the midbass driver only.. hey if i am wrong, please feel free to send or post pics of what is inside- the proof is in the pudding,.. in terms of hcld tower speakers, you might want to take a listen to the previous series of skylon deafcons iv's & v's. ( the one with the image dymamic drivers) they are the best sounding hclds to date imo (though they are discontinued... ) the throat design keeps the sound out of the boat and out to rider and sound incredible with good amplifaction..

hope that helps,

Mike


As you can see. I SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU EXACTLY ABOUT MY PRODUCT. YES it has a crossover and NO it is not a Motorola piezo. Yet, you still think you are right. So much that you would bet money on it.

You THINK you are right so much that you want to argue about a product with the person who DESIGNED IT?

This is why Mikeski had referred to me having a history with you. I specifically said I do not get involved with any posts from Clubmyke because it goes no where and that I have tried in the past to be very nice on e mails and help him out and answer his questions but he wants to argue about everything. It is not worth even getting involved. It goes no where.

Another clarification. No one on this site has anything to do with Wet Sounds besides me. Mikeski is a happy consumer as is Angry mike and many others. That’s it. To make repeated attempts that they are on the take is ridiculous. And to make remarks like you did or wrong and way off.

I tried to clarify this on the last post with you and so has everyone else. It seems that no matter what. You are always right.

It is a very easy system to run and has been covered many times on this and the other posts. And everyone on here can e mail me directly if they have questions about it.

I am sorry to all of those who have had to witness this post or read some of the false accusations.

Clubmyke, I have been very nice to you and had chosen to take the high road and bite my tongue on the repeated attacks on my company and my products.

I hope that everyone on here can read the above and has some clarification.

I have asked for you to stop jumping on every post about Wet Sounds to say negative things. I have tried to help you out when you are confused as did many others. But as always it goes no where.

For anyone who is interested in clarification on how to run a 3-Some, e mail me anytime at twhite@wetsounds.com

Thanks,

Tim White
Wet Sounds, Inc
Old     (angrygolucky)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-04-2007, 4:43 PM Reply   
Wow, had no idea how deep some if this history runs. Kinda silly.
Caddy,
Get your sense of humor dude. Google dead horse and click images. It's a stock cartoon. I didn't put the caption.
I just thought it was funny.
I almost didn't put it up, but I thought it was just as self-depreciating as it was poking fun at all of us collectively.
Will everyone lighten up now?

(Message edited by Angrygolucky on March 04, 2007)
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-04-2007, 7:55 PM Reply   
Tim I don't believe that the horn is not a motorola piece...I think you should send me at least a pair of black pro 80x. I will fully inspect and test your speakers, now I must warn you that this is a long process not only do read/write slow, but I even hear slow. Therefore, I will return sometime fall or winter 07 and let everyone know how your product performs and if the horn is a motorola. I really want to help...let me help you help me.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-04-2007, 10:52 PM Reply   
tim,

thanks for the eloquent response...

any objection if i share my point of view and the ALL the email replies i recieved from you (you missed some).

i have no intention to embarrass you or defraud your product..but it would seem only fair to tell the whole story. i dont want to beat a dead horse as angrymike so "colorfully" depicted...

but it seems only fair imo....

your call...proceed forward or not ?

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 04, 2007)
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-05-2007, 6:46 AM Reply   
clubmyke,

I think angrymike is right. This is a dead horse. As is any disagreements between you and I. Let's just agree to disagree. And leave it at that. As with this post. It just gets people upset and at the end of the day goes no where.

Thank you in advance.

Ewing. nice!!

Thanks,

Tim
Wet Sounds, Inc.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-05-2007, 10:18 AM Reply   
tim,

i have no beef with you or your company. as stated before i think you make a fine product and the fit and finish is first rate.

imo you have not taken the high road.. you fired one across the bow and has choosen for me not to repsond...there are 2 sides to every story..i would like to take this opportunity to respond...

if you havent noticed - i am not partial to one brand over the other and encourage prospective buyers to look and listen to the big 3 (nvs, skylon, and wetsounds - note alphabetical order ::-))) simply because each one is uniquely different...i have yet to see or hear ANY product that is THE BEST in all categorys.. not to mention, there are shortcomings in each model that can be improved upon...my fave has yet to be produced yet (upgraded drivers such as b&c midranges and selinum titanium hclds) and a couple other ideas that many manufactures have contacted me about...

DISCLAIMER - i am dont work in the mobile audio industry nor have i recieved any accomondations..

the topic where you percieved tension is with the brigtness associated with the pro 80's that i installed on a friends boat awhile back...i mentioned this to you in a email and you did acknowledge it and said there was going to crossover revision with a attenuator on the new models because of multiple complaints..

in all fairness, i noticed the same thing happened listening to a pair of nvs tryants(excessive brightness and too much sound in the cabin vs out to the rider)....which then made me look at the differnce in the horn bodies of a coaxial vs standard body (this was in a previous post where you showed the wetsounds coaxial driver)...btw,i have not heard the 485's, i would assume this not be present with them since they have the hclds are seperate..

this observation (which is accurate) coaxial hcld's have a far different dispersion pattern than the standard horn body and throat..this is correct observation...whats the problem with it ?

your not the only manufacture who makes a coaxial hcld tower speakers.this is nature of the design (drawback in this application due to the listeners in the boat) - a a owner with small children may want to look at other models than this one (like the 1010, 350, or the 485 or non hcld models)

it doesnt matter who the namufacture is...this is common to coaxial designs...and this was nothing more than casual observation and not meant to be a slam on your product..i have stated this many times before and mentioned all manufactures who make this type of tower speaker (nvs & wetsounds...are there more ?) please keep in mind i am referring to coaxial tower speakers designs..

it does bother me when it is OBVIOUS to any person of reasonable intelligence that when manufactures incentive outspoken members and installers to promote their product..not to mention when someone says anything less than glowing - manufactures run to moderator to pull the post (THIS IS WRONG AND GOES AGAINEST THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF FORUMS) which is honest observations from end users (non industry).. TO ATTEMPT TO MANIPULATE THAT IS WRONG....

not to mention, the whole 2 singles and 1 double is fine... but running a car amp at 8 ohms is a not .... are you willing as a company to pay for amp replacement / repair for amps that are damaged by running at 6-8 ohms ? yes or no ?

have you contacted any amp manufactures about running at 8 ohms mono ? or are you suggesting buyers take your word for it ?

as i mentioned before some zapco's, they dont like 6-8 ohm loads and will cause damage (ask for robert), so unless you are willing to replace an amp that was damgaged by a setup you are reccomending, it's not a bad idea to make a quick phone call rather than make a bad assumption.

it is a really simple question..adding a simple caveat is a favor to both you and the boat owner..there is a couple different ways to do this - run 2 ohms mono, 4 ohms stereo, or check with the manufacture before running 8 ohms mono due to the amp design...

as mention in mikeski's website- car amps are designed for high current low impedence operation...they have minimal cooling area and operate in a hostile setting...8 ohms is a lot of resistance when running PA speaker with no reinforcement with a car amp running near wide open(the majority of car amps are a joke when compared to a professional amp)...

the last thing any boat owner wants to do is spend $2500 - $3000 on somthing that will break down the line because what should work in theory doesnt work in reality (hey, this is life)..

btw, i have asked you questions as a designer and you couldnt answer them - such as crossover points, impedendce curve across the frequuency range ? is it a nominal 4 ohm load or have a impedence chart (important) for which you did'nt have the answer to either...

i think you take less than idea feedback of your product a bit to personal..

i may be off in terms of the horn mfg (it looks like a motorola), but i am correct on the voicing and the crossover on the midbass driver only.. hey if i am wrong, please feel free to send or post pics of what is inside-

from this statement of what i said - it is pretty obvious.. it is a honest observation and guess..and since you do have a crossover on the horn, then i am wrong...it doesnt sound like it, since you say it does, then it does...

tim, it's okay that people dont agree...it really is..it should open up discussion, idea's and MULTIPLE solutions...

again, i think you have a fine product.the pro 80 are a great deal at the price point they are at..you have done a really, really good job bringing hcld prices down and making them affordable (has this been mentioned before ?)

however, the pro 80's are not without flaws as mentioned above due to limited horn throat design (it is unreasonable for buyers to expect everything at $895...if they can spend more, then "imo" a pair of 485's would sound better and easier to install then 2-pro 80's and 1-485.. the cost between the two is pretty close last time i checked).. it would also be nice if a 485 was offered without the hcld

i do admit i havent heard the 485's, it has been reported they do sound good and i am sure they do..

it is nice to have a choice wether it be nvs, skylon, or wetsounds.. i wish you and your company the best..

(Message edited by clubmyke on March 05, 2007)
Old     (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-05-2007, 10:43 AM Reply   
"Just beat it, beat it......."
"No not Mr.Ed"
"Oh the humanity"
Old     (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-06-2007, 1:25 PM Reply   
Caddy, put your glasses back on, you're missing the point.

This thread had such potential too...
Old     (froese)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-06-2007, 2:04 PM Reply   
Oh - WAIT! I see the problem...

Mike has been listening to "hcld's" not HLCD's. I think hcld stands for - Honkey Cracked up on Lithium Discharge, where as HLCD stands for - Horn Loaded Compression Driver.

But what do I know - I ain't no aud-ee-o-phile. Tim - I do know that I love my Pro80's and recommend them to anyone that asks!!!

(now, when's that check gonna be arriving in the mail? ;)

I do need to email you with a request... seriously. Thanks for a great company and the quality service that you provide.
Old     (wetsounds1)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-06-2007, 2:49 PM Reply   
Clubmyke,

Thank you for the kind words at the end. I am sorry you may feel that there are people that have some sort of incentive from me to promote our products. That is not the case at all. There is not one person on this site that has ever gotten anything from me for posting things. I have read many other threads that appear that way from all sorts of products for other manufacturers so I can see how it is easy to assume. It is not the case with Wet Sounds. As for the deleted thread, I know the post you are referring to and that was removed by David because it appeared as spam. It was also was not started by me. Just a happy dealer.

As for the statement about you asking for information from me about the products and I "couldn't" answer you. It had nothing to do with "couldn't." It was I "Wouldn't" answer your questions. There is a huge difference. I do not and will not give out proprietary information on our products such as what you were asking. Sorry.

Now, let's everyone just get out there and ride!!

Tim
Wet Sounds
Old     (wkerat)      Join Date: Sep 2002       03-06-2007, 4:18 PM Reply   
I just want to jump in here and clarify the 3-some as I ran one on my personal boat last summer. Along with this I do installs for a local marina and have done numerous variations with Wet Sound products as well as many other brands. My personal boat this year is actually going to have 6 pro-80's on it, but as was mentioned they will be bright so I am running a eq just for the tower. I have talked to Gyver at Wet Sounds about this and was informed that the new run of pro-80's will have attentuation as I believe Tim mentioned.

For the threesome I have found numerous amps that work. A few brands that have models that work are Planet Audio, Massive, and Cadence. I have not used a Cadence for this, but have an install coming up where I will be. Anyway, the easiest way I have found to wire the threesome is to buy a 4 channel amp. Wire the pro 80's to channel 1 and 2, which will run them in 4 ohm stereo and then bridge the 485 to channel's 3 and 4, which will give it a 4 ohm mono load. You are limited in amps that will put out around 150 rms per channel at 4 ohm, and then can be bridged to run 300 at 4 ohm mono, but they are out there.

I do believe the threesome offers the best sound of the Wet Sounds line as the 485 balances out the brightness of the 80s. I chose the 6-pack because I believe with the right tuning it will be the better set up, and I have access to enough resources that I can build a crossover for the speakers if I cannot get the sound I need out of them. I hope this helps if anyone is wiring a threesome.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-07-2007, 1:14 PM Reply   
wkrat - thanks for the constructive post / informtive post...this is pretty much how the forums are suppose to work..

tim- what i asked for is pretty common and can be measured very, very easily..if you feel impedence over frequency chart and other impedence numbers is a big secret.. then i really strongly suggest you pick up a high end audio mag like stereophile and look at a speaker review or look at other speaker specs...all it is impedednce measurements... it's not a big deal anyone can do it with the right equipment on hand. strictly used for setup - nothing more and nothing less...imo, this is a more than a bit paranoid on wetsounds part...with that being said, asking for crossover design would be intrusive imo..

considering that these speakers can and are used in combination, it is a pretty good idea to have those numbers on hand to pick a amp that is running the proper load..
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       03-07-2007, 1:53 PM Reply   
Since this thread just won't die...

Yesterday I e-mailed several amp manufacturers the option 1 and option 2 wiring diagrams for a threesome (any threesome consisting of three 4 ohm speakers WetSounds, NVS, Skylon, Infinity, Kraco...).

I was quite surprised by the reply I received from Robert at Zapco. He said he "would not go to an 8 ohm load", so I called him. We had a nice conversation, I was able to explain the diagram that he had apparently not carefully reviewed, and he confirmed that any Zapco 4 channel amplifier including the reference 1000.4 would operate without any trouble wired either way and agreed that operating an amplifier in stereo at 4 ohms per channel is exactly the same load a operating the same amplifier at 8 ohms in mono.

The other most active poster on this thread may come back with a combatative debate in an effort to discount my clean technical solution? I believe I have Robert from Zapco clear on the issue, you are welcome to call and confirm with him directly at 209-577-4268 x106. But please be aware that he is currently working on a car so he might be unavailable to provide advice.

You might also want to ask yourself a question. Should you believe the electrical engineer or the stereo installer...

Please kill this thread!

Threesome wiring options:

application/pdfUpload
threesome wiring.pdf (31.4 k)
Old     (yosquire)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-07-2007, 3:24 PM Reply   
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Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-07-2007, 11:10 PM Reply   
mikeski,

i your post and called robert at zapco and he confirmed what you said...(read below for the details)

i am really, really, really, really, surprised...when i bought my zapco 1100.1 last year the shop (street noyz, the west coast zapco rep, and tech support informed me(2 different times)that a 6-8 ohm load would damage the amp when bridged - this is the honest to God truth !!! - they can modify there amps to run lower impedence loads but not higher...)

i asked robert(today) and he did mention the C2K series amps CAN NOT run into 8 ohms but the class a/b reference series can (i think tech support got confused about this)... i am bummed since i changed out my 2 ohm drivers for 8 ohm drivers...

to say i am really surprised and pizzed($$$ to change out drivers) it still shows to call tech support..

btw, ask robert about the ck series into 8 ohms if you dont believe me...
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       03-08-2007, 9:58 AM Reply   
Seems like there are quite a few threads where this topic was argued ad nauseum. If you could go add this correction to all of those threads, I'm sure the readers would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-08-2007, 11:18 AM Reply   
Dave: ^
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-08-2007, 11:30 AM Reply   
Mike: I just got off the phone with Robert Zeff. Robert said he wants you to turn in all your Zapco equipment for a full refund. He asked if you could promote another brand so you stop making Zapco look so stupid.
Old     (super_air)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-08-2007, 11:32 AM Reply   
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Old     (joe_crawley)      Join Date: Jan 2007       03-08-2007, 12:36 PM Reply   
Does no one on this post understand ohms law!

Of course you can run an amp at 8 ohms. Or 16 ohms. Or 100000000 Ohms!!!!

I'VE GOT $100 TO ANYONE WHO CAN FRY A ZAPCO AMP BY RUNNING IT AT 8 OHMS. ESPECIALLY 8 OHMS BRIDGED WHICH IS EXACTLY THE SAME ELECTRICALLY AS 4 OHMS STEREO.

AHHHHH!!! The misinformation hurts my head.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-08-2007, 1:21 PM Reply   
grant, i guess i could sell my zapco gear and run arc audio...
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-08-2007, 2:11 PM Reply   
grant, i dont mean to point something out and intentionally make you look stupid but what the heck....

but isnt ROBERT ZEFF at ARC AUDIO ?

i would really like to take another funny cheap shot at you but i refuse to have battle of the wits with a un-armed person...
Old     (whitie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-08-2007, 2:15 PM Reply   
Yeah beat it, beat it like it stole you'r money.

(Message edited by whitie on March 08, 2007)
Old     (audiopro74)      Join Date: Jun 2005       03-08-2007, 3:09 PM Reply   
I do believe zeff is actually working for Nicola engineering.

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