backroll help. video inside

hey guys. been working a backroll since july. last time out was the closest i have ever gotten. and im still quite far away. any tips would be sweet

2 attempts in this video. thanks

still uploading to vimeo. but i have it on facebook for now

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/video/video.php?v=1204426952465&ref=nf

From the looks of it you are not edging the board through the wake. Looks like you are doing a normal wake jump and then trying to throw the backroll. I will let someone get on here who can explain it better than me though.

you flattened out about 10' from the wake.

think of cutting as if you were to do a normal wake jump: progressive cut. hold your edge all the way up the wake.

Dave,

Maybe my eyes are just bad from studying Anatomy and Physiology all night that I can't see the details super well but, I'd definitely agree with Bret and Joe above. Your definitely flattening out and losing your edge, and therefore your pop. So your not going to have the pop you need to get your rotation around fully. With losing that edge too, your gonna lose your line tension which is SUPER important to that roll. Like Joe said, cut in just like a normal wake jump, and once you feel the buck off the wake, drop your trailing shoulder. (You don't need to throw your head into the rotation... Personally, it messes me up when I do) The combo of the shoulder shift and the line tension should swing you around. Just keep that handle in close, spot your landing and BOOM!

this video is a little better. but not much.

i see what you guys mean though.

i normally ride at 70 feet doing 24 and when ever im going to try, i bring it in to 65 and drop the speed to 22.5 - 23. i fall in the flats everytime trying it. should i just do it at my normal length so when i do land it, im not in the flats?

take a shorter approach...you're way out compared to what you need to be.

cut your approach to 15'/20'...and make it OVERLY PROGRESSIVE...don't really start edging until 5'/10' before the wake....but at the wake, EDGE 100%!!!!


for this trick you need almost no approach, just a really exaggerated progressive edge

Looks like you are doing a normal wake jump and then trying to throw the backroll.

^^This^^ When you hit the wake you should be edging the board as if cutting away from the boat. That will cause the board to be throw into the air with a rotational force that will rotate you around. Save some of your edging energy so you can snap the edge harder as you go up the wake.

Zoom in. I have been having a lot of problems landing a backroll because I am landing on the wake and casing, so just watch out for that at your reguar speed.

You dont have to cut super hard. Save your hardest cut for when you get to the wake. Dont even try to jump, just try to carve through the wake. Once you start to get upside-down, keep your chin near your lead shoulder. It may sound funny but this lets you spot your landing way early and helped me be able to keep my eyes open the whole time.

have you watched this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgNhCwKLf48&feature=related

David is right - this video is awesome.
As for me plus for your slow speed you have a wrong direction of rotation. Look at instructional and compare...

ive watched the learn wake video like 30 times. and still no luck. ha.

i know my backroll is as mexican as it can get. but im more worried about getting a rotation down and landing it then making it look good my first time. you know what i mean?

I agree with the edge comments above... shorter approach and more progressive.

The #1 thing for keeping it regular and not mexican is to think about trying to place the bottom of your chin right on the top of your shoulder to initiate the rotation. Your chin controls how you rotate... if you put it to your chest like you do in the vids it will definitely end up mexican.

ill try the edge the next time out. but it wont be for a while unfortunatly.

but as for the chin placement. ive tried on the top of my shoulder like you said, and it looks way more regular. but i only get about half the rotation. i have countless pictures of me with my head plowing through the wake and the board straight up in the air.

^ cuz you're throwing it way to early. Get the pop first (edge through the top of the wake), then initiate.

okay. i see. ive wondered this for a while.
but would it be easier to learn to do a tantrum before a backroll? ive heard from several people tantrums are easier. and ive heard from several that backrolls are easier.

What came first... the chicken or the egg? That topic has been debated over and over... just preference I guess. Try both and see what feels more natural and dial that one in.

Don't take this as me being a d*ck... but sometimes a little T.O.W. is needed before a rider starts trying inverts or spins. You may want to keep shredding as often as possible, working on your edge, pop, W2W 180s and such before stepping it up. Do you have a nice consistent Toeside W2W jump? Thats like always my first question when somebody wants to "do a flip" Trying to progress too fast is an easy way to get discouraged and stop riding IMO. Stay within your reasonable limits and progress as your skills allow.

Just my $0.02

David,
What helped me learn this trick was thinking about both wakes as the beginning and end of a loop. As you ride up the wake pull the handle in and let the board continue to go up over the top, then back down the other side as you land. If you look at the wake from the boat. visualize a loop. This is not a wake jump to front flip. It looks like you are jumping and trying to flip toward the boat. Let the boat and rope do all the work. Progressive edge, handle in as you go up the wake, allow the board to continue going up, roll it over, spot your landing, and stomp it. Hope that helps.

T.O.W.?
whats that?

and our closest body of water is an hour and a half away. so i dont get to ride as often as id like. and i dont have TS 100% consistant. but i can clear it TS and ive landed a few Ts W2W 180's but im not going to lie. i learned to jump the wake toeside 2 weeks ago. i had never really worked on it til last weekend. we took Mitch out to the lake. and he got me clearing it. (ironically because he taught me to clear it HS as well quite some time ago) i was just supper pumped to land an invert.
and i had actually told myself before we went to the lake saturday i wasnt going to try a backroll for a while. and just work on Ts and 180's. like you just said.

but 200 yards from the no wake zone. i dropped off to end my last set and head home. and my sister (who lives out of state) wanted to see it. so i tried to do it twice. and they just happened to film it. so i figured i would put it up online and get some advice

and as you can see in the pictures in this thred. ive gotten way closer. yet i know im still miles away
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/715410.html?1249402492

i found this weird. but saturday was the first time i had ridden the board im riding in the video. first time on a flex board at that. and i was the closest ive ever been.

The easiest one to learn is the one you feel most comfortable trying. I wouldn't worry about how good your TS jump is. It doesn't matter. You just need to get your board on edge through the wake. You have to commit to throw the roll. It's the edge and the commit that throws the board into the air and causes the rotation.

TOW is "time on the water"

And please don't take offense man... I'm all for people pushing their selves, I just think its super important to have attainable goals in order to maintain interest in something. I have no idea how well you ride from 2 little clips on the internet and I have no idea whether sticking a backroll is an attainable goal for you or not... I'm just throwing my thoughts out there. And posting here is definitely one of the best ways to get direct feedback on a trick so keep it up.

luker, i didnt take offense at all. i totally understand what your saying. and like i said. im going to work on Ts and 180's for a while. but i figured id throw this up since we took video.
i like being able to get multiple people giving direct advice. just like you said. unfortunately the people i always ride with are my dad, and uncle. and my dad has a blown knee. and it hurts him even after a few ollies. and my uncle who has no desire to jump being an EX hardcore waterskier. so out on the water i really have no one that can give me solid advice. so i turn to here.

Going to a cable park opened my eyes to proper edging. When you see people do backroll's without the wake or raleys right after leaving the dock & I've found that I can not sink my Murray 140 enough to get the proper edge needed.

^ good point. If you can try some on cable it will let you know what you're doing wrong.

i live 10 miles from San Francisco. cable is out of the question unfortunately

Yeah, you have to edge to throw the roll on the cable. The way the water grabs your board and throws it in the air is same process as behind the boat. The difference is that with a big wake you can jump and flip without a proper edge.

David, you probably can sink your Murray enough. Just take a shorter slower cut then lay into it hard with a snap. Too much speed may be causing you to lose the edge you need.

It's funny though, I started hitting Big White ( the large kicker at OWC) When I land without allot of tension the board sinks & then the rope will shoot almost as high as the cable or catapult me out of the water until the handle rockets away. I've watched in amazement as the handle goes flying! It's just a real wide board to sink, I get much more tension with a motive style board even being longer. (144)



(Message edited by Otown_dave on October 27, 2009)

I was looking at your pictures on your facebook of your backroll attempts.

Here are some things I saw.
1. Board is flat on the wake
2. Your leaning to initiate the rotation instead of letting the edge do it for you.
3. As soon as you leave the wake, you chin is on your back shoulder, should be on your lead shoulder.
4. Letting go of the handle with one hand as soon as you leave the wake. Keeping the handle close is the only thing that will keep your rotation going all the way around.
I would say go back a few steps and just try it one wake, once you start getting board almost all the way around, go wake to wake with it.

I see exactly what the problem is..........That water was just too glassy for you to land anything let alone a backroll!

lmao at ryan. we rode in vegas for a week. and had nothing but 2 foot swells and sever wind during the 5 week days we rode there. that was the 5th day. we pulled up and couldnt believe it.

and bret. that was the first day i tried it. i posted those pics here. and found out what i was doing wrong.. like everything. i hold on with both hands now. ha

actually. scratch that ryan. i read the post from bret about looking at the pics. those pics where from vegas. in the video it was berryessa. thats why winter is the best. glass from October til may, all day.

Go to learnwake.com it's Kyle Schmidt's new site you can up load the video and Kyle will help you

You are throwing an incorrect Mexican Roll, not even a correct Mexican roll and far from a correct backroll. Are you still riding this season? Use the tips above and keep filming youself. When you feel like you are getting closer, post up new vids so you can get more info about what you are doing right/wrong.