My first boat 'help me' post... Help a newb out?

2006 DD Moomba LS

Took it out this past weekend everything ran fine, just had the 150hr service last week and the dealership said everything checked out.

Today after work we took the boat and idle'd across the water, then gave it a little gas and everything is fine until 3k RPM and then it sputters and will not go any harder, if the throttle is depressed wide open it will bogg down a bit and back fire occasionally.

-Running in neutral I can rev up to 4k with no issues
-Out of the water on the trailer i can rev to 4k in neutral or in drive (no major strain)
-Runs fine in the lake at 1500RPM (slow take off, slow speeds, etc..) but nothing over 25MPH

It FEELS like its not getting enough air when under load and I try to give it WOT. I took off the air filter and looked at the butterfly valve on the intake manifold and everything is appears normal, the valve opens/shuts as it should.

Any ideas?

what did they do in the 150 hr service? it sounds like spark plugs to me. If they replaced them they might have put the wrong ones in

Do you have perfect pass, is it set for 25 mph? Sorry had to ask.

Just checked the paper work and it's a '50 hour check sheet service'. It basically is just checking all the hoses, oil levels, check for engine noises, fuel lines, change oil.

I don't have perfect pass, i do have EZ Cruise and it is turned off.

how many hours on the Boat?

check the easy stuff then see a dealer. Check the fuel filter. Check fuel pressure if you have a gauge and skills.

Carb or FI?

Do a leak down test with a compression gauge. My dad bought a boat a while back, it ran great at idle but when running it had the same issue as you. Compression was ok and within limit. But a leak down test showed that two cylinder had bad rings.Good Luck

boat has 175hrs, motor is a Multi Port Fuel Injected 350. Dealer is 3hrs away.

Wierdest thing about this is that we wakeboarded on Saturday and everything was perfect. We brought the boat home, it sat in the drive way for the weekend, got rained on a bit (with the cover on) and then today we took it out for a quick run and it won't give power over 3K RPM or about 25MPH.

That's what happens, it will run fine in neutral, but not fire correctly under load. Water in the fuel or old fuel or bad fuel is possible. Check the fuel separator and/or take a fuel sample. How old is the fuel? Could also be a fuel delivery problem. I would start with the fuel, then the fuel system and go from there.

She has just under 1/2 tank of gas left. I just filled it up on Wednesday before we rode, then after saturdays run we had about 1/2 left so I didn't refill for todays run.

IF there is water in the fuel, can I just fill the tank up, add some kind of additive and burn through the bad stuff at low speeds? (i know this is a dumb question)

I would try to find out what the problem is first. Otherwise you're chasing your tail. How old was the fuel that was in there? Water would go to the bottom of the tank. Check the fuel like I suggested. Aren't boats fun?

The fuel in the tank could very well be old. I purchased the boat with about 1/2 tank of gas about 10 days ago, then last week before we took it out i filled it up.

I suppose that if the previous owner (who has has the boat in storage all winter) has some water or old gas in there from last season and the fuel thus far was pulling from the top then its possible that the 'bad gas' in the bottom of the tank could be the culprit?

I've got her covered up for the night, but tomorrow after work I will continue on my journey of fun...

Regarding the fuel separator, what am I looking for once i get it pulled off? How will i know what to look for ?

With 'bad gas' or water in the gas in vehicles you can add a bottle of rubbing alcohol to the tank and run it through to burn through the water.

Same thing work on boat i suppose? Is that a bad idea?

Methylated spirits will get rid of the water in the tank, if that is your problem. Pour some (not sure how much to be honest) in and run through the tank, the water will mix with the alcohol and it should allow the fuel to burn.

As mentioned above, check the fuel and then look at the fuel system. Does it smell rich? Mine had similar symptoms last year and it turned out to be a bad fuel pressure regulator and it was getting too much fuel pressure at the rail.

Fuel doesn't come from the top of the tank, drains from the bottom which is why water becomes a problem as it pulls the water through first. If you put new gas in the other day it would have primed the old gas as well.

I had a similar problem last year. The shop diagnosed it to improper engine timings. I had to bring it in three times before they realized it wasn't going out of adjustment, it was actually a bad distributor. Symptoms were very similar, the boat would run normal at idle or in the driveway, but it would stall out under load. Start with the simpler thing of checking the fuel system, but this is something else to consider if that doesn't pan out.

Fuel filter.

There are several fuel additive products that claim to reabsorb water that I have used on occasion with success. Just Google it and pick one. I believe the general consensus is to use one that does not contain alcohol but I'm no expert on the subject so I'll leave that to your own discretion.

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.fueltestkit.com/marine_additive_gas_treatment.html

Agree fuel filter needs changed

I think Stephen is on target sounds like fuel.
It came on after you got gas? Put a hose in the tank and siphon out a qt or so put it in a clear container and let it settle. it should be clear.
If it has water remove as much as you can add two bottles of HEET and new fuel.
If it has a distributor check to see if the dist cap is dry inside. You can use a spray bottle of water to wet down the ignition system to see if it arks anywhere do it at night easier to see.

Check your vacuum hoses. Maybe a fuel pump. Spray some carb cleaner in the carb. As far as distributor make sure it is on tight and not rotating. Engine takes a lot more gas underload than in idle. Check your engine compression. Check safety switches, could be electrical. Good battery?

These are just some random things to check.

Remember the basic equation: Air, fuel, compression, spark = power.

One boat we had with the same problem was because it had a couple pistons without compression. But it could be a couple of things.

I had a bad coil, twice. Did the exact same thing.

Pull the distributor cap off and look for corrosion or water on the rotor and stator contacts. Happened to a bud of mine last year, exact same symptoms.

(Message edited by bstroop on April 15, 2009)

I would vote for Lou's (ferral) suggestion. I had the same issue and it is a problem with the distributor advancing the timing. It could be a cracked distributor or it could be the alignment of the oil pump shaft into the distributor. Not a hard fix with a timing light and distributor wrench.

thanks for all the input guys! I've been doing some research this morning and figured out

1)how the fuel/water separator works so i can check it when i get home.
2)Definitiely going to cyphon some fuel and check that
3)Next check the distributor cap

Regarding the timing, (and i'm just thinking out of the box here), would the boat react/drive normal at low speeds 1500RPM/under 20mph if the timing was messed up? I'm thinking that if it was a timing issue then under load or no load the engine would display some issues and backfire/sputter more. Since the ONLY time i notice an issues is when WOT under load in the water. WOT on the trailer is fine.

Maybe?

Get a fuel separator / filter on your way home and swap it out. You should be able to get one at a good auto parts shop. They look like a spin-on oil filter. IMO it's about a 75% chance that's the problem.

It's hard for me to imagine corroded ignition or fouled plugs on 2006 EFI with 175 hrs.

...or the timing being off when it ran fine the last time out. It might be the advance. Check vacuum hoses coming from the distributor.

a 2006 Mooma has a distributor? I'm pretty much clueless about Moombas, but i figured it would be electronic coil driven spark.

http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/SkiersChoice/Assault-325/index.html

motor specs...

Since nobody added this--
DO NOT RUN THE BOAT IN GEAR OUT OF WATER!!!!
Your prop-shaft bushings are lubricated by the water, running it dry will create a very expensive problem you didn't have before.

Mine (same engine) does the same thing every spring. Change the fuel filter, drain the gas, add water remover to tank, fill it back up and you should be fine. If not you didn't lose anything except a few minutes of your time anyway. The fuel filter should be changed regularly just the same.

Again, don't put the boat in gear out of the water!!!

Trace nailed it. Twice.

As Jason said don't run it in gear out of the water. Just put it in neutral and rev away.

Right on. I only did a quick 0-4K Rev right out of the lake so it should be fine. I didn't think about the lubrication of the bushings though so that is VERY timely news as i was planning on testing it out in the driveway tonight but I will wait until she is in the water.

Jason - There are one or two fuel filters on these motors? (If 2) should I replace both ? where are they located?

Yea, i don't understand why a person would put their boat in gear out of the water. Nor do I understand the need to warn ppl about it....

the same reason you have to tell little kids not to eat crayons. I mean, it seemed like a good idea (running in gear out of water to test quickly, not the crayons).

I have had the exact problem you are describing. Took off the fuel filter/ water separator and poured out what looked like diet coke. Hope that's all it is for you.

Fair enough. I guess if you're having tranny issues that's the easiest way to test. Just seems like lately a lot of people have been saying the same thing. Maybe thats a good thing.

Back to your problem: I keep going back to fuel flow. WOT w/ no load is different than WOT in the water. Timing does not advance without a load. So if it is timing, its the timing advance that's not working right. when timing advance doesn't kick in, boat should top out at roughly 3000 rpm. Is it running strong or sputtering?

And what rpms is this? you said 1500, but thats not 25mph.

running at 1500RPM (10MPH)everything sounds and feels normal, @ 3K RPM (25MPH) [WOT] the motor will rev to 3K and then you feel it stop there and choke out a bit. If you leave it in WOT at that point, the engine will continue choked up and throw a pop(backfire). As soon as you come back to about 1/2 throttle (2k RPM) then the boat maintains normally at about 10-12MPH

IF the timing is the issue and it ONLY advances under load then it very well may be a distributor/timing issue?

I'm headed to the house in 2.5minutes to play mechanic. Should have an update in about an hour or so...

Your motor might be going into "SAFE" or "protection" mode. Same problem with my boat. Would run great one day and only to 3k rpm the next with the gas to the floor. Mine ended up being a oil pressure sensor, easy fix. I just had to leave the master power switch on until I could get it to a mechanic with a set of cables to read the computer in my motor. (325 Indmar Assault) If fuel is'nt the problem, I would find someone to read the codes in your motor. Save you lots of time and money chasing nothing.

SO...
My first, I tried to cyphon some fuel and there is a grill in the way of the line to restrict people from cyphoning and I didn't want to remove the hose directly on the gas tank so I decided to try another plan of attack.

I then began to look for this so called fuel/water separator and embarrassingly enough, I can't find it anywhere. I have followed the fuel lines from the tank to the motor and don't see any thing that resembles the fuel/water separator. Is it possible my boat doesn't have one ?

Scotty, sent you an email......

Doug, I got nothing, hit me again pls.

sholland04@gmail.com

The last boat I had that had a fuel separator was built in 1994. I'd be surprised if a boat built in 2006 had one. If it does, they look like a spin on oil filter. Mine was on the side of the engine near the motor mount. Looked like an auxiliary oil filter.

From some research on the web tonight, I've found several folks who said that Skiers Choice quit using them in 2000 due to vapor lock and aerated fuel. I do have an inline fuel filter behind the rear locker and tomorrow I plan on replacing that.

My money's on the fuel filter.

BTW, from the link above, there is a 3yr fuel and electrical system warranty...

Water separator or not, I still think it's the fuel filter too.

scotty, i had a 05 supra ssv with a 325 indmar that did the same thing under load.

boat would run fine at low rpm's and then would bogg down under a load.

turned out to be the fuel filter

Well, changed out the fuel filter, took it to the lake and ran it about 15 minutes and the same issues persist.

Here are some pictures of the fuel filter I replaced. The fuel looks clean. I do still have about a 1/2 tank of gas left in my boat and if it is 'bad gas' then maybe i need to empty it out completely ??

Well, it would cough and die at idle with bad gas in it. I wouldn't dump my gas out just yet. Add Sta-bil to it if you think you have water in the tank.

Fuel pump pressure is low. My friend just had the same problem put in a new fuel pump and she ran like a raped ape. Its not cheap but old fuel in these EFI motors = big expenses

Since the fuel filter is good, the gas appears to be OK, then the next step is checking the fuel pump.

We removed the fuel pump and jumped it and its functioning fine. There was a little bit of black trash in the bottom of the pump and so we began looking at the fuel lines. I removed the fuel line coming out of the pump running all the way to the filter in the back and cut it open.

The hose was completely eroded inside with black rubber shavings. Looks like this boat has sat to long and the hoses are shot. I bought new hoses and am in the process of putting everything back together.

Here is a pic of part of the bad hose(left) / good hose(right):

Where did the fuel sample come from? I would have taken one from just after the fuel pump. You have access to the tank, so you might remove that fuel sender and see if you can see any dirt or water in the bottom of the tank with a flashlight. BTW, just because the pump works doesn't mean the pressure is ok. You need a pressure gauge. Hope those particles didn't get in the injectors. You might want to pay for the Seloc manual online or one of the others. You might be diagnosing for a while. Good luck.

Did you add that fuel filter in the rear? That's not the stock location for the filter, there's one mounted in the engine compartment. Well at least that's how it was on my 05 Outback and is on my 07 LSV. They put the filter close to the engine in case the hose breaks down just like you see above. If the filter next to the engine hasn't been changed, it should be.

That sample came directly out of the filter and the hoses right next to it after I removed the filter. I also removed the fuel gauge sensor in the tank and cyphoned some fuel from there. The fuel all looks fairly clean.
I ONLY filter on my system is the online filter behind that back seat. I do not have a filter in the engine compartment.

I'm going to replace the tubing this weekend and drop the boat in the lake and she how she runs from there.

Can anyone else confirm that my wix inline filter is or isn't in the factory location?

hit up the moomba forums

I've had this problem many times with a couple of my boats, it was always the fuel filter..

Sounds like engine is going in to safe mode due to temp. It is very possible that engine stays cool durring idle but not when under load. Safe mode keeps you from overheating engine and limits RPM - symptoms of sputtering. Take it out of gear and rev it up and it acts fine because its not under load.

Check water pump impeller first.

Second pull water supply hose off the bottom of the shell and tube heat exchanger transmission cooler. Water is supposed to flow freely thru the small copper tubes. With a flash light inspect the tube bundle, remove any debri using a small pick - DO NOT push debri forward into the tube bundle.

What's the word Scotty? I still think it's old fuel. You mentioned the fuel could be old. That would explain the pop or misfire, old gas has little octane and won't combust. I would put in some ISO-Heet (the one with alcohol) and some fuel cleaner/fuel injector cleaner. Run it on the trailer in neutral about 1800 rpm for 20 mins. See if the rpms come up on their own. If it does, that's a sign that it's cleaning out. You should be able to punch it from idle without a bog or it dying. Top it with premium and take it to the lake. You might already be there testing it. Let us know.

I second what Chris said. Look closely at the temp gauge when the boat starts sputtering. It doesn't have to get real hot before it goes in the limp-home mode -- which "feels" just like a fuel problem.

My boat did exactly what you describe when I first started using it in the spring. I thought I had bad gas or a problem with the fuel/water separator or fuel filter. After taking care of all those issues, it turned out to be the raw water impeller.

I backflush the heat exchanger to clear it.

Let me clarify. I changed the impeller and then checked the rest of the cooling system. That's when I backflushed the heat exchanger to get the twigs and such out of it.

Didn't get everything accomplished as I had planned but I did get the entire fuel line replaced tonight and will be taking out tomorrow afternoon to see if it's fixed. I put some HEET in the gas tank so it will have time to mix in, I will be topping it off with premium fuel tomorrow and hoping for the best.

Jeff - I JUST had the impeller changed during the service before I bought the boat (2 weeks ago) but I don't know what the 'backflush of the heat exchanger is? Can you either give me some info on here or shoot me an email ?

I'll update again tomorrow night....

ps. The guys showed up to install my carport on Friday and it took them 30minutes to install this. I don't have room to fit it in the garage so this will have to do for now:

Check the fuel pressure. It's super easy to do - get a gauge and stick it on the Schrader on the fuel rail. Should be in the neighborhood of 40 psi.

I would run it first for 20 minutes or so at home like I said before adding more fuel. Did you use ISO-Heet, the one with alcohol or just the regular one? I would still ad some efi cleaner. Take it to about 1800 rpm and leave it for 5 minutes to see if the rpm goes up. I think psi spec may only be about 28-32. You need to know the spec on your engine. I don't think just changing the fuel line is going to fix it, so you need to find the real problem.

You initially said "everything is fine until 3k RPM and then it sputters and will not go any harder, if the throttle is depressed wide open it will bogg down a bit and back fire occasionally". I could be wrong, but it still sounds like fuel; not enough pressure, bad fuel or water in the fuel. Hopefully your injectors aren't clogged with debris. I don't think it's the ecm "safe mode" as I recall you can't hardly even plane out and get doing before it shuts it down. I assume your water temp is running under 180 and the engine oil level is fine? Are you having fun playing diagnostician yet?

I used the regular heet not the ISO. The oil and transmission levels are perfect.

It may sound odd, but I am enjoying this learning process as much as wakeboarding itself. Now, maybe in another month if this isn't fixed that may change

There's a rubber hose that runs between the scupper on the bottom of the hull and the raw water pump on the front of the engine. Somewhere within that hose is a cylindrical metal object that's larger than the hose and is funnel-shaped at each end to narrow it down so the intake and outflow hoses can connect to it. That's the heat exchanger. Two smaller rubber hoses from the transmission are attached to the side of the cylinder; ignore them.

Inside the exchanger are a lot of small tubes that the water passes through, and debris can plug up some of these tubes. When this happens, water flow to the engine is restricted, and it can overheat.

To backflush debris out of the tubes, disconnect the intake hose at the exchanger (this would be the one that goes to the scupper). For the hose on the other end, disconnect it at the raw water pump (on the front of the engine, at the end of the crankshaft). Then get a garden hose nozzle that fits into the hose snugly and blast water through it, and maybe pulse the water flow several times. That forces water through the exchanger in the opposite direction than it normally flows and -- hopefully -- takes any debris with it.

Scotty by the looks of that hose i would guess someone was running E85.I have been to the Indmar training class and they talked about this exact problem I think you will be fine if you change the fuel lines and the filter (you can get this at napa just take them the old on they will match it up)sorry i forget the part#. and make sure you dont use E85.The fuel sample you showed is kinda tuff to see but its not the worst i have ever seen nor is it the best it kind of looks old/stale it should be clear not yellow like yours.I would drain it and start fresh.Did it show any signs of water in the fuel?I think you main problem is the fuel line coming apart and clogging the filter causing it to starve the eng. and run lean so make sure you change the fuel filter.Good luck!
Timing is controled by the computer no vacum hoses to the distributor in this year.caps can get corroded and cause problems its worth a check but looking at that fuel hose thats your problem for sure.You are going to have to replace every fuel line because they will all be that way and it will just keep clogging the filter.

(Message edited by kko13 on April 19, 2009)

GOOD NEWS!!

took her out and ran for about 15 minutes like this:


Then slowly cranked up the RPM's until i got to a solid 3 and then left it there for about 5 minutes. After that I hammered down and she purred like a kitten and flew! After I gave it WOT for a few seconds we then just drove around about 3500RPM for about another 15 minutes and everything works great!

Kevin - Thanks for insight on the E85. the hose deteriation was so bad that I could have filled about a half a shot glass with rubber shavings. The shavings were very soft and would just turn to mush in your hand so I know something was eating them away slowly and apparently clogging the filter.

Temp stayed steady below 180 the entire time and everthings seems to be back to normal now. Anything else I should watch out for ? or continue diagnosing at this point ? Or just take out and keep an eye on things for a while and see how she does?

Last picture for the day (that makes me a very happy person). This is when we were humming across the lake after everything was back to normal!

That's great. I'd say problem solved. I'll send you a bill!