Amp help...

I have a 2001 Supra Launch...I am currently running 6 pioneer marine 6.5s (were already in the boat) along with Kicker KM6500.2 HLCDs and a 12" Memphis sub. I want to get new amplifiers to push everything. right now I have three old non-efficient amps doing all the work. I want to switch to two amps. What would be a good set-up for me?

How do you know your amps are running so "inefficient". Don't get to caught up in that "amp efficiency" hype. There are a ton of factors that play into it, the amp itself is only one of them. What amps do you currently have?

Well, the amps I have are trashed now due to water damage. They were an old Pioneer 750w amp, a Crunch 1100w amp, and a Jensen 300w 4 ch. The Jensen was pushing the interior Pioneer 6.5s, the crunch was bridged pushing the sub, and the Pioneer was pushing the HLCDs. The crunch was the only digital amp. the others were older....from around 2002. I just need new stuff. Hoping to be able to go with 2 amps.

I do want the amps to be "efficient" though. Dont want them sucking down my battery too fast while the boat isnt running. My local audio shop is trying to push the Massive Audio NX5 on me and an Orion amp for the HLCDs. Worried about heat issues.

Any amp regardless of brand will be sucking down your battery reserves don't let anyone fool you there. There is no magic amp that produces its own power, it takes power to make power.

Good amps are important sure, but so is dynamic headroom, tuning, battery reserve, charging routine, etc... All these things will influence how "efficient" your system becomes.

You can spend a ton on so called "efficient" amps but will still be dead in the water if you don't address the other things I noted. You would be surprised what you can do with amps that some call "inefficient".

The set-up I was using worked good...no heat problems, good sound, loud, no power issues. Any Ideas on an amp combo to go with?

What do you have for battery power? Do you have an onboard charger? Do you keep your boat on the water or in your driveway/garage? What is your total budget for this upgrade?

Probably have to get new batteries as well. I had it temporarily running off of an International deisel battery with a new Napa marine battery as a backup. I keep the boat garaged. No onboard charger...yet. (a buddy told me about the solar chargers). Would like to keep it under a grand. less if possible. Should be able to get 2 amps for around 600-800 bucks, Im thinking.

I've had good luck with wetsounds stuff over the years. Their amps are expensive, but hold up well. A syn6 would run your interior speakers and your sub. Depending on whether you have 2 or 4 tower speakers and what their ohm ratings are, a syn2 or syn4 would work as a second amp.

Tower speakers are the Kicker 6500.2. 4 cans..2 horns/2 mid bass. 200w rms each pair.

The syn 6 is in the "inefficient" category since it's class a/b if you subsribe to the hype. Solar charger won't charge your batteries properly you need a 3 stage charger. $1k is cutting it close, maybe you can find some used amps? Get some newer like in kind batteries and an onboard charger and might be close to your $$ goal.

I've got about $1500 to play with...just didnt want to use it all. But I can.

What kind of 3 stage charger? Best batteries? Good amps?

Pro-mariner pro series are some of the most affordable onboard chargers out there. The 20 amp 2 or 3 bank is the only one I'd suggest getting. For batteries the best bang for the buck is the Interstate SRM-29 or a couple of 6v golf cart batteries wired in series.

Good amps? Some of the most popular are wetsounds, exile, arc, kicker.

How about an ARC Audio XDi805 and XDi804. These are (For the most part, i'll explain) full range class D amps that are super efficient and really small footprint.

The Xdi804 could run 4 of the boat speakers at 80 Watts each. The XDi805 could run the additional 2 boat speakers as well as the tower speakers, again with 80 watts each and the sub channel on the XDi805 would give you 400 watts of real class D bass amp for your sub. Over a Kilowatt of power and 9 channels for about $798.00.

http://store.arcaudio.com/products/c...106038.0.0.0.0

Cheers
Scott

Fullrange Class D is 60 percent more efficient than Class AB. Class AB generates four times the heat to produce the identical power. A Class AB, at 50 percent efficiency, will draw 2000 watts of supply to create 1000 watts of output power. A Class D, at 80 percent efficiency, will draw 1250 watts of supply to create 1000 watts of output power. At 12 volts, thats 83 amps of waste versus 21 amps of waste to deliver 1000 watts continuous to your speakers. You figure out all the trickle down benefits of that. For starters, how about a 60 amp difference on a single 60 amp/hour battery. Multiply that by several amplifiers.
Its not hype. Its fact. The manufacturers of both topologies, whether Kicker, JL Audio, Alpine, Arc Audio, etc, will substaniate this.
Class AB sounds great but its been used in car audio for 35 years now. Think AB doesn't have warts? Think again! Its the correction of the severe notch/crossover distortion passing through zero potential in a Class AB amplifier that when corrected through applied bias creates the additional waste and heat. But don't take my word for it. Most third graders can do a Google search and read up on it. There is no perfect topology but its time to move past the horse and buggy phase. The latest higher speed switching Class D amplifiers, JL Audio for example, switch at a speed 10 times faster than the sampling rate of your CDs. When you put it in perspective you can recognize and hear that the better Class D amplifiers are far superior to your program material and on par with any other amplifier in sound quality.

David
Earmark Marine

And he slept at a Holliday Inn Express last night!

David,

If I ever need an expert witness because an amplifier blows up and kills someone, I'm flying you in bud.

I believe the KM6500.2 HCLD tower speakers will need more than 80w each. From what I hear, they are power hungry, needing around 150w rms each to feed them. I've been out of the audio scene for a while now, so I'm just going on what I compile from different sources. Any other good amp combos? I'm going to be pulling the trigger on this in about a week, and want the best bang for my buck. Thanks for the input.
-Marc

Of course, WS stuff is nice, but a little too pricey for what I'm trying to do here. Maybe when I upgrade boats.

Dave I don't doubt the theory behind the hype, but in my real world boating experience I didn't get that added 60% efficiency when using class D in a boat that's all. Same boat, same batteries, etc... I'm doing what shouldn't be possible in my current system, happens to be the longest running and most efficient system I've had and this is minus the class D amps this time. I've done my own testing with amps I purchased such as Arc, JL HD, and class A/B. I know which ones I liked best.

Nu Bu,
Different systems. No objective testing was done under equal conditions by substituting amplifiers into the identical system. Who is to say that you didn't have serious inherent flaws in your previous system. Besides, 50 percent of your present system is the more efficient Class D! Yes, you are running Class D lowpass all the way. So how credible of a source are you.
Its not theory. Its fact. The product managers, designers and engineers will unanimously agree that Class D is vastly superior in efficiency. Morgan West, the product manager for Phoenix Gold of yesteryear and the product manager of today's Phoenix Gold, was responsible for your amplifier as a previous member of the Exile group and uses the same topology in many of his PG amplifiers. He rates the Class AB at 50 percent and the Class D at 80 percent and is in harmony with an entire industry. So now we have one guy saying it isn't so even though the designer says its so.
Its fine that you like your equipment. You should. Its very good equipment. But to feed readers false information that its "hype" is wrong just because of your personal choice or its contrary to what you have. You are simply unqualified to make these statements other than your opinion is you like what you have. What you are saying is that the majority of the 12 volt industry is selling hype and that you know better.
There are dozens of boat owners that have upgraded their entire systems, not just parts of their systems, from Class AB to Class D fullrange or Class G/H. And, they know what a profound difference it has made.
Just wait until more and more prominent manufacturers switch to fullrange Class D. Years ago I said the movement was certain and that has proved to be the case. There will be more newcomers to the technology as soon as 2012. Those who have the latest technology are making the switch. Those that don't have access to it economically or are too small will not immediately convert.


David
Earmark Marine

Lol ok Dave. Did I really say it wasn't so or did I say I didn't notice the difference in my boat and in my experience. My last system didn't have flaws, if it did.this one does too I installed and tuned them both myself. I do believe I also stated that my particular system does what it shouldn't be able to, that's playing longer and harder than it should.

I've got the 6500.2. I went with the kicker ix 500.4 for the tower. It will push 250 to each pair when bridged. Sounds awesome! For the sub, I have a kicker ix1000.1 on a CVX124.

Marc, you can run all of your speakers and the sub off 1 Zed Audio Leviathan. The author in the article below says it's the most efficient amp he's ever tested.

http://sonodascale.com/reviews/ampli...-Leviathan.asp

The funny thing about the Leviathan is that it keeps popping up on various forums as such a great amp yet no one ever seems to own one. It also looks like the least marine friendly amp of all the options here as the installer would need to take extra care in mounting not just for moisture but also to keep the plexi cover away from wake boards and other heavy gear. Has anyone on here actually bought one of these and made it work well in a car, boat or otherwise?

Marc, that system design was only one option. Using the same amps you could bridge the 4 channels of the XDi805 into 2X120 watt channels and run the XDi 804 into a 2 ohm load on two channels by hooking up two pairs of speakers to one half. That would again yield you 2X120 watt channels as well as 2X80 channels.

These amps represent a great full range Class D option.

Cheers
Scott

Anyone had any dealings with the Memphis marine amps?

Originally Posted by pdqwrx

The funny thing about the Leviathan is that it keeps popping up on various forums as such a great amp yet no one ever seems to own one. It also looks like the least marine friendly amp of all the options here as the installer would need to take extra care in mounting not just for moisture but also to keep the plexi cover away from wake boards and other heavy gear. Has anyone on here actually bought one of these and made it work well in a car, boat or otherwise?

Quite a few people on DIYMA are using them and most have said great things about it, other than a turn on pop that was an issue with the first batch. Steve Mantz designed it, he also designed the first true car amplifier many years ago...so I'd be willing to bet it's pretty good considering his 40 years of car amp design experience, but can't speak on it from personal experience.

I believe Liquid Accoustics sells a marine version of the amp and are using Zed Audio amps in their installs.

Plexiglass is actually very strong, but regardless of what the cover is made of I'd never mount an amp where wakeboards and heavy gear hitting it would ever be an issue.

You'd get more power to the speakers and a smaller footprint with the Levithian as opposed to the 2 Arc's you suggested. ..

While I think the Zed amps are interesting, I've never heard them in person...and I'm more than happy with my Exile X2400.1 at 1ohm load and Xi800.4 at 2ohm load, and more importantly the customer service. The whole efficiency thing with A/B hasn't been an issue for me.

Originally Posted by Down2Ride

I believe the KM6500.2 HCLD tower speakers will need more than 80w each. From what I hear, they are power hungry, needing around 150w rms each to feed them. I've been out of the audio scene for a while now, so I'm just going on what I compile from different sources. Any other good amp combos? I'm going to be pulling the trigger on this in about a week, and want the best bang for my buck. Thanks for the input.
-Marc

Marc-

Phil here, from Kicker. Sorry, I have been on the road or I would have posted back sooner. Sturgis man, Sturgis. Thats all I gots to say..

In the Kicker lineup, the budget route will be to go with the Class A/B Kicker ZXM amplifiers.
Use the ZXM700.5 for your in-boat speakers and sub. Thiis single amp has a 4-channel A/B full range section and a mono digital sub section; easy to wire, one amp solution. Then for the tower go with the ZXM450.2 stereo amplifier that we designed primarily as a tower speaker amplifier. The 450.2 is a good choice for the KM6500.2 as it will deliver 150 RMS a side now, and if you add the KM6500 mids to make it a 6-pack up on the tower it will bump to 225 RMS a side.

You can go all efficient with Kicker too if you want... The Kicker IX line features full range Class D technology. The power supplies in the Kicker IX line are built around Boost Converter technology which provides power supply efficiencies exceeding 90% for very low heat. The overall amp efficiency is better than 80%, providing cooler operation and longer run times when compared with the ZXM amps. For your boat, I would recommend the IX1000.5, (brand new and soon to be shipping) for your in-boat speakers. Then the hot ticket to me for the towers is the IX500.4. Run that amp in bridge mode to the tower speakers for 250RMS a side.... OR if you don't want to be "that guy" in the cove, back down to the IX500.2 which delivers similar output to the ZXM450.2 only in an efficient Class D package.

Holler if you have any questions. I will be glad to help.

Phil
Kicker

Sturgis...wish I could have made that trip. I understand...I ride too. Turns out I have to replace the sub as well. For the kicker line-up, which 12" sub should I go with? DVC , Comp , SVC? I might have to replace the interior speakers as well. Haven't tested them yet. Any suggestions there?

Originally Posted by Down2Ride

Sturgis...wish I could have made that trip. I understand...I ride too. Turns out I have to replace the sub as well. For the kicker line-up, which 12" sub should I go with? DVC , Comp , SVC? I might have to replace the interior speakers as well. Haven't tested them yet. Any suggestions there?

Marc-

I will recommend a dual-4-ohm woofer to get all 400 - 500 watts out of the amp, assuming you go with one of the Kicker amps I recommend. Do you have an enclosure for the subwoofer? If you already have one, a rough idea of internal volume will help me make a solid recommendation. If you plan on building a new box, for the power available, it will be hard to beat either the brand new L3 square sub, or the perennial favorite Comp VR. Vented enclosures will be louder for ya, if you are willing to tackle that, otherwise, sealed boxes are easier and more flexible. What are you up for?

As for the in-boat speakes, you might as well go Kicker all the way. The KM6200 is a marine coax designed from the waterline up for the boating environment. You get a 3/4" dome tweeter mounted to the grill, with a sealed midrange cone that prevents water from getting into the speaker's motor. That sealed cone provides more surface area for greater sound pressure and volume. Another trick with the KM6200 is the cone itself. The 6-inch, (nominal) basket fits stock 6-inch marine speaker openings, but is designed in such a way that we put in a midrange cone from a larger 6.5" speaker. This bigger cone gets you a little more area for even more volume compared witha typical 6" marine speaker.

We magnetically shield the midrange motor, both to limit compass deviation, (for the offshore guys) and to also focus the motor's flux in the voice coil gap. There is more magnetic energy in the KM6200's motor than in other non-shielded speakers. This gets you more output and greater control over the cone movement.

Finally, the weatherproofing features... We designed the speaker to have as little ferrous material in it as possible. Rust sucks. Steel, (ferrous material) rusts, and while rust itself is unsightly, it also stains upholstery and gelcoat. To prevent rust, the basket is injection molded and the metals in the motor are sealed inside of the speaker to prevent stains. Don't fall for the powder-coating story. Some will tell you that their steel baskets are powder coated to prevent rust. That is fine untill you put a screw through them and crack the powdercoating during installation... .

The rubber surround is UV stable to allow it to withstand the constant exposure to sunlight. The screws are 316L stainless, the preferrred material for marine fasteners to be used above the waterline. Finally, study the grill. At the 6-o-clock position you will see a little cookie bite both inside and outside the grill. This is a drainage channel that prevents water from standing next to the cone if sprayed, splashed, or rained on.

I rattled on a little too long on the KM6200, so in summary, just know it is NOT a car speaker painted white... It really is a true marine speaker in every sense.

Hope that helps out a little more. Get me your info on a box for the woofer and we can move that decision forward. Holler!

Phil
Kicker

Right now, the enclosure is a pre-fab box I got at Best Buy. I know, it's not enough air space, but I just threw it together to vet out on the water.

Originally Posted by Down2Ride

Right now, the enclosure is a pre-fab box I got at Best Buy. I know, it's not enough air space, but I just threw it together to vet out on the water.

Okay. To use that box, use it sealed with the Comp VR, part number CVR124. You can go witha vented box of your own design later and still use the woofer.

Let me know!

Phil
Kicker

This box is vented. One of those XD boxes. Seemed to be good before. Didn't notice the sub starving for air or anything. Sound was good.

Originally Posted by Down2Ride

This box is vented. One of those XD boxes. Seemed to be good before. Didn't notice the sub starving for air or anything. Sound was good.

Cool. We may want to adjust the port tuning, but we can also cross that road when you get there.

Let me know if I can help

Phil
Kicker