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Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-01-2019, 6:56 AM Reply   
Hey everyone,

I'm hoping to get a few unbiased opinions...My wife and I are researching/prepping to buy a new "budget" wakeboard/surf boat at the boat show next year.

We initially targeted a new Moomba Craz only to discover that it won't fit under our 8' garage door (had salesman bring a 2019 Craz by our house and it was about 2-3" short). As a result, we've expanded our search to include the Axis T22 and MAYBE even a used (2017 or newer) MB B52 23.

We have 2 daughters, ages 5 and 7 and live in the Seattle area. We plan to use the boat for beginning-intermediate level surfing/wakeboarding, tubing for a few more years and cruising on our area lakes, including Lake Washington which is typically rough in the spring/summer afternoons. We will likely spend a lot of our time on Flowing Lake, a small lake outside of Seattle where our relatives live. We currently own a 2000 Epic X-22 that we absolutely love but want to upgrade to a V-drive with more seating capacity, better wave, etc.

The salesman we are working with says that the Moomba factory believes a custom trailer has the ability to solve our height problem. The concern we have if we go that route, is that we build a 2020 Craz with custom trailer only to get it home and find that it still won't quite fit. Not sure what we can do to protect against that, so I'll have to determine more as we get closer to making the decision. But that terrifying scenario is in the back of my head nonetheless.

What we like about the Craz is that it's a great all-around boat and would do marginally better on Lake Washington. We like the touch screen color display and what Autowake can do. We also like the interior on the Craz a bit better than the T22. As far as the engines, it sounds like the Raptor might have a slight edge because the torque curve is more aligned with surfing speeds than the 409 Monsoon on the T22. Is that true? Tough to find information on the 409.

What we dislike about the Craz is the tower, especially because it pivots so high, resulting in the boat not fitting in our garage on a non-custom lower profile trailer. The Craz also sounds like it needs more than the factory 3000# of ballast to surf well. Also, there is always a bit of concern about a boat that relies solely on a touch screen display for everything but that's nitpicky. That's about it for our concerns with the Craz.

What we like about the the Axis T22: it will fit in our garage without any issue and I believe it can even sit inside with the tower up once I get it through the door, which would be nice. It also sounds like the T22 throws a better wave for surfing and wake-boarding than the Craz does out of the box. We also like the look of the Axis slightly better than the Craz but mainly because we're not huge fans of how the tower looks on the Craz. We also like the thought of having Surf Gate and the Power Wedge 3 and Surf Band.

Our dislikes regarding the Axis: the negative things I've heard on here and from others about the quality control inconsistencies potentially affecting long term reliability (we will keep the boat for as long as possible), the Monsoon 409 concern I mentioned above about it being better suited for higher RPM's, the interior vinyl being too soft and not durable enough to stand the test of time, the marginally worst rough water performance compared to the Craz and the shallower cabin (less freeboard) compared to the Craz. I don't mind the analog gauges that so many complain about.

So, if the prices are somewhat close (and I think they will be when you add a custom trailer to the Craz build), what do you guys think? Not sure what will be new on the 2020 models but knowing what we know now, is the consensus a new T22 or a new Craz? We plan on a demo for both boats but want to gather as much information/feedback from as many people as possible. Especially folks who either have one of these boats or are very familiar with them.

Or, should we scrap the idea of a new Craz or T22 and pursue a newer but used B52 23? Not sure that would fit in under our 8' garage door, either, though.

Thanks in advance for any replies!
-BJ
Old     (TomH)      Join Date: Jan 2014       05-01-2019, 7:15 AM Reply   
If the Craz trailer has torsion axles and a bit of clearance under the fender, it's possible you could gain that 2-3 inches by adjusting the axles to a different position without needing to do a completely different trailer. Some customization of rim and tire sizing could also help you drop some height potentially.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-01-2019, 8:10 AM Reply   
Yeah, I've talked with them about that too just nervous to go that route and find that it's still not quite enough. I guess at that point I could air down the tires but it's still a bit scary. Fully custom trailer, albeit expensive, might be the safest route. I've heard other things like disconnecting the drop-assist cables on the tower to gain more lowering travel but on the '19 we had at our house, that didn't look like it would help at all. The front bar on the tower base would hit the bar on the section of the tower that lowers. We also lowered the tongue as far as we could but since the high point is pretty much directly above the axles, lowering the tongue did nothing.

Last edited by formerathlete; 05-01-2019 at 8:12 AM.
Old     (Bagar55)      Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Bristow, Va       05-01-2019, 9:11 AM Reply   
They are both solid boats. The Craz does have a somewhat better looking interior and a little bit better fit and finish, however, My vote is for the T22. The boat is so easy to use. The wake for wakeboarding is super consistent and does not take a lot of playing around with to get it right. It will stay clean all the way down to very slow beginner speeds. Fill the hard tanks and plug and play bags and the more weight you add the wake stays the same but just keeps growing in size. If you really want to slam it you will need more weight in the bow then the factory bags allow. If you add an additional 400lbs to the bow you can run heavy in the rear and the wake is all you would ever need. Surfing is the same fill the bags all the way up, extra weight in the bow helps but it isn’t necessary, pick which side you want to surf and you are ready. You can adjust the wedge to change the shape and push of the wave. The wave is all you would need as a beginner to intermediate rider. It’s fun and consistent and a great shape to learn on. The 409 motor is nothing to be concerned with. If you run the right prop the motor will handle anything you need it to do. There are no issues with reliability or quality of the motors. I don’t think you could go wrong with either boat but I like the looks of the Axis better also. It’s just simple and easy to use and performs great. If you take care of the vinyl it should last as long as the others.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-01-2019, 9:15 AM Reply   
Great stuff Bagar. Thank you.
Old     (hunter991)      Join Date: Jul 2016       05-02-2019, 3:48 AM Reply   
I looked at both Axis and Moomba extensively this year when buying new. I like both but there is no way i could ever buy an Axis until they get more concerned with fit and finish. I looked at no less than 6 of them at different dealers, boat show, and found the same problems with fiberglass strings hanging under the seats, mis-aligned piping on the cushions, just little stuff like that, that makes me think this thing was slapped together without much concern. For the prices we pay i expect more and i have concerns about longevity. I also found two screws under one of the motors when i was crawling around. Where are they from? no one knows. Plastic cup holders that fly out when towing... just too many things on the Axis i didn't like from a quality perspective. And for 85k, it better be better.

What i do like is the Axis seems easy to setup for surfing. The bad is its surf gates which tend to pull the boat to the side its deployed. If the boat is weighted too much they become somewhat ineffective as well. But probably easier to set up than a moomba. One other thing i noticed about Axis was significant BOW rise when at surf speeds even with front bags. I test rode one and there is no way my wife could see over the bow. Its seriously high.

The moomba comes with higher quality. STainless cup holders that don't come out as easily, bigger color touch screen that is backed up by switches so you won't be dead in the water. The interior is nicer as your getting the old supra vinyl now. The only downside is it may require a bit more weight and setup to get a great surf wake. But that's the fun part. Once you learn it, your good to go. The moomba was also a few thousand less overall.

This all being said, i have had some issues with my new moomba that the dealer is taking care of. Nothing mechanical, more dealer setup related. Hope this helps.

IMO, you get more quality with moomba. It should be there from the start when paying upwards of 80k.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-02-2019, 5:55 AM Reply   
Thanks Hunter. Have you posted something similar to that on this forum somewhere? I remember reading concerns that are extremely similar to yours and that's what triggered my post and it's why I'm still torn between these two boats. If it wasn't your post, then I'm sensing a bad trend with Axis' quality.
Old     (hunter991)      Join Date: Jul 2016       05-02-2019, 10:02 AM Reply   
It may have been me, but others have posted the same type of things. i haven't been around here much lately.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-02-2019, 11:03 AM Reply   
I have a 2016 T22 (prior gen).

Re the monsoon 409 -- that's a very tried and trusted motor, being a Crusader/PCM product. It has done work in Nautiques, MBs, Centurions and others for over a decade. I have the 450 in mine but it's just a variant of the same 409 motor. It's a solid power plant and I wouldn't shy away from it at all.

Maybe I got a "special" boat off the line, or maybe fit and finish has declined a lot since 2016, but I still have all of my cup holders, and the hull hasn't fallen apart yet. Will you find some nuts and bolts in the bilge? Yes you will. That's a malibu "issue," and has been the case for a long long time, and has to do with their assembly process. To the point that it's kind of a running joke. No biggie, but something they should find a little embarassing. (the nuts and bolts are dropped extras, not evidence of the boat falling apart).

I have a floating wedge, not the power wedge. Bow rise is an issue, sortof. Basically, if you want to run 1100s in the rear lockers, you will have significant bow rise. However, if you run about half that weight, bow rise is totally manageable with just a little extra weight in the bow (I use 250 in lead) or put some passengers up there. Basically the boat likes moderate weight, not crazy weight. Having the power wedge should help if you run it down (i.e. not set at full drag). But yeah when we filled everything after our break in hours were done, I was very upset about the bow rise. Then I figured out that it was curable by just running less weight in the back.

I've got about 200 hrs in 3 seasons. Boat has been great. Surf wake is super easy to set up, wakeboard wake is more than I"ll ever need as a middle aged hack. I do wish mine had the horn for surf transfers like the new ones do, but that's a really small quibble.
Old     (Surfsupdude)      Join Date: Jul 2018       05-02-2019, 1:48 PM Reply   
Surf both boats! That sealed the deal for me. I own a 2018 Axis T22 with Power Wedge and absolutely love it. My 1st boat spent more time at the dealer than the lake. He had one marine mechanic, my new dealer has 40 full time marine mechanics. It makes a huge difference. Marketshare also determines resale, IMO.

My 1st boat had the Raptor, But I think the Monsoon 409 is smoother, quieter and has better hole shot with the power wedge. My Raptor also had O2 sensor issues and Cat issues. Lots of annoying fault codes. I think Indmar finally got that figured out.

I run 200 lbs of lead under the glove box compartment to offset prop rotation, a 650 PNP bow sac and 750 rear PNP sac's + factory hard tanks full. No issue at all.

Good luck with the hunt!
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-03-2019, 5:27 AM Reply   
Awesome stuff you guys. Thanks. We are leaning T22 but one of the main reasons is because of the height issue with the Craz. I'm also wanting to discuss some of the concerns that Hunter brought up with the dealer before deciding. I do like what I heard from Shawndoggy and Surfsupdude about those issues, though.

We've already climbed around in both, so next up is to demo both, ride behind both and determine which one we like better before ordering at boat show (and we'd need assurance that the Craz would be lower than 8' on the trailer before going that direction). So we are still a ways out and the more information we can gather ahead of time, the better we'll feel about our decision. Can't wait though!

Thanks everyone.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-03-2019, 5:35 AM Reply   
Shawndoggy, when you go with less weight in back, is the wave still good enough for most levels of surfers? I'm guessing it might not be quite as tall but maybe a bit longer? I'm just hoping to have a wave that will be good enough for my daughters, one of which is telling us she is going to be a pro wake surfer, lol! And of course, the only thing holding my middle age, injury prone self from being a pro wake surfer is the wave, of course, so I need pro level wakes too (I wish).
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-03-2019, 6:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerathlete View Post
Shawndoggy, when you go with less weight in back, is the wave still good enough for most levels of surfers? I'm guessing it might not be quite as tall but maybe a bit longer? I'm just hoping to have a wave that will be good enough for my daughters, one of which is telling us she is going to be a pro wake surfer, lol! And of course, the only thing holding my middle age, injury prone self from being a pro wake surfer is the wave, of course, so I need pro level wakes too (I wish).


https://www.instagram.com/p/BniBZ7sh...on_share_sheet

No offense to "pro wakesurfers," but that's like "pro nerf basketball" or "six foot rim dunk champion." The wave has been great for us. Biggest baddest wave on the water? Nope! Big enough to totally have fun on? DEFINITELY!

Last edited by shawndoggy; 05-03-2019 at 6:06 AM.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-03-2019, 6:29 AM Reply   
Totally agree, lol. My reply was a failed attempt at sarcasm related to pro surfing.

We are coming from a direct drive slalom boat that has 600# ballast in the trunk to help with the wakeboarding wake. We can only surf without a rope when the stars align and we have my huge brothers in the boat. So when we see the T22 wake, it's gonna feel like we're on the Pipeline on Oahu, haha. Can't wait.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       05-03-2019, 4:24 PM Reply   
No matter what you decide, youíll be super happy, so try not to stress over the choice too much.

Out of the box wave is better in the Axis no doubt. But I had the same concerns you do - quality, dash seems dated, didnít love interior in general, box rise was bad with manual wedge, etc.

End of the day we went with Craz, figured adding weight is easy. Fixing quality concerns, interior layout, etc isnít. Again, either way weíre lucky SOBs to be shopping boats like these!



Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-03-2019, 5:20 PM Reply   
nice ride!
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-06-2019, 9:58 AM Reply   
That's a sweet Craz. How high is your garage door and how high is the ceiling in your garage? My door is 8' and my ceiling is 10'1". Craz is about 2-3" too tall for my door but with a custom trailer (and torsion axles), it might work. I need to talk to the factory. And I'd love to be able to have tower up in my garage but not sure it's possible at 10'1. Craz is sooo tall. Axis will fit into my garage with a foot to spare and I might even be able to have the tower up once inside.

Also, what are those mudflaps on your tow rig? Those will save your boat!
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       05-08-2019, 6:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
nice ride!
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by formerathlete View Post
That's a sweet Craz. How high is your garage door and how high is the ceiling in your garage? My door is 8' and my ceiling is 10'1". Craz is about 2-3" too tall for my door but with a custom trailer (and torsion axles), it might work. I need to talk to the factory. And I'd love to be able to have tower up in my garage but not sure it's possible at 10'1. Craz is sooo tall. Axis will fit into my garage with a foot to spare and I might even be able to have the tower up once inside.

Also, what are those mudflaps on your tow rig? Those will save your boat!
Sorry it got ceramic coating done and that pic is from the shop, I wish I had a garage that would fit it! It's going to be living right next to the water at a local boat club.

We tried some storage units and my experience is that a 9' door will clear, after you take the wakeboard racks off. I believe it's over 12' with the tower up.

Yeah! Rock Tamers, we love them. They just bolt right to the hitch so they're just on there when we're towing. Way more protection than the 'mudflaps' offered for Tahoe/Yukons and I didn't have to drill into the truck to mount these.
https://www.amazon.com/Rock-Tamers-M.../dp/B006M9VIRM
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       05-08-2019, 6:48 AM Reply   
Also finished the break-in and got to ride behind it. Really happy with the wake, and wave. 3 adults in the boat, 4 kids, and stock (3,000lbs max) ballast. Autowake worked great for both wakeboarding and surfing.

30% ballast 18mph



75% ballast, regular, 10.8mph


80% ballast, goofy, 10.8mph

Last edited by Matt0520; 05-08-2019 at 6:54 AM.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-09-2019, 11:35 AM Reply   
Those are some sweet pics. Congrats on your boat. I think Moomba is out of the question for us...just too many challenges to overcome to make it fit into our garage. We are now looking at the option of ordering our local dealer's last A22. So, we've gone from T22 or Craz to A22. It seems like it's splitting hairs between the A22 and T22 and we like the fact that the A22 surfs and boards a bit better than the T22. Doesn't seem to be any red flags on the A22 that the T22 doesn't have unless you guys know of something. Plus we'd be able to get one before this summer really gets going. We'll see what happens...
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       05-09-2019, 1:49 PM Reply   
The A is a sick boat too. Just different helm position in those, larger bow and smaller cockpit
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-10-2019, 12:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
we like the fact that the A22 surfs and boards a bit better than the T22
Is this a "fact"? Pretty sure the hulls have the same running surfaces?
Old     (theloungelife)      Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, UT       05-10-2019, 3:04 AM Reply   
Is the T22 the same running surface as the gen 2 A22 or the gen 3 A22? I'm assuming they're all similar, but curious regardless.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       05-10-2019, 6:42 AM Reply   
Pretty sure it goes like this:

22 VLX same as gen 1 t22, gen 2 a22 similar to gen 1 T22 with some modifications more like the gen 1 MXZ, Gen 2 T22 identical to 22 LSV- gen 3 A22 slightly modified. The newer MXZs are a notably different wake shape and size, but I haven’t ridden the new A yet.

The As are heavier with different weight distribution due to the can rearward layout, thus make a slightly lippier wake.

TBH I can like BARELY feel the difference between the two once loaded up, only difference to me is the additional lift lip at the top of the wake of the a22
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-10-2019, 6:55 AM Reply   
What's bizarre is that in looking at the 2019 Axis Owner's Manual, it says the A22 is 4000lbs. Everywhere else says 4500lb. I'm gonna assume it's 4500. Yeah, that's a heavy boat. I have a 2013 Tundra with the 5.7 and it can go to 9k but 6k+ would still make it very unhappy, I'm sure .
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-10-2019, 7:00 AM Reply   
Our salesman said the T22 is a bit sportier than the A but the A makes up for it with slightly better wakes. He said you'll never know the difference unless you ride in/behind them back to back. I like both boats pretty much equally. All the T's he has are gone.
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-11-2019, 7:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerathlete View Post
Our salesman said the T22 is a bit sportier than the A but the A makes up for it with slightly better wakes. He said you'll never know the difference unless you ride in/behind them back to back. I like both boats pretty much equally. All the T's he has are gone.
That sounds like pretty typical salesman b.s. to me. I'd suggest getting both in AND behind both boats on the water. IMHO the loss of cabin space in the A series is likely to have a much bigger impact on how much you like the boat than a 2% difference in wake when loaded to the gills. The extra length behind the windshield is a big deal, especially during shoulder seasons or early morning / evening, when it's cooler and the less hardy among us want the benefit of a heater.
Old     (beleza)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-11-2019, 2:22 PM Reply   
Sportier? Wtf does that mean? Lol
Old     (beleza)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-11-2019, 2:23 PM Reply   
If you don't care about the picklefork bow, I'd get whichever is priced better. Both boats will be awesome
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-14-2019, 12:32 PM Reply   
Going with a custom A22, the last slot they had of either boat. Early July. Can't wait!
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-14-2019, 12:33 PM Reply   
https://boatpreview.axiswake.com/axi...a=100&gb=20191
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       05-14-2019, 12:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerathlete View Post

Congrats! Gonna be sweet!

Hope it fits in your garage lol
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-14-2019, 12:41 PM Reply   
noice! is it a 2020 then?
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-14-2019, 1:04 PM Reply   
Haha, no kidding Matt. It should fit with my eyes shut. It's actually the last 2019 slot they had, so we took it.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-15-2019, 3:27 PM Reply   
Random question...why does Axis/Crusader/Pleasurecraft Marine Engine Company use the 409 number on their motor if the HP rating is 363 and torque is 341 based on the CARB information? Seems odd to choose a random number. Simply trying to fool people or am I missing something? That being said, is "only" having 341 an issue in these Axis boats?
Old     (beleza)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-15-2019, 4:23 PM Reply   
cubic inches???
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-16-2019, 1:55 AM Reply   
364ci
Old     (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       05-17-2019, 12:36 PM Reply   
PCM has called the two 6.0 variants the zr409 and zr450 for years.
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       05-24-2019, 9:32 AM Reply   
At some point after we take delivery of our A22, I'm going to be getting a 2nd prop and am wondering which direction I should go? It comes standard with the 2249 (14.25" pitch) and we are going to be using it predominantly at sea level or maybe up to approx. 1500 feet. We'll be surfing, wake boarding with occasional tube rides and occasional cruises around Lake Washington. Should I opt for the 2279 (15.75" pitch) and use that as our primary prop and maybe switch to the 2249 when we go higher or if I know we'll be extra loaded down with people? Or is there a good option in between that I haven't seen/heard about?
I'd like to try (key word is 'try') and keep fuel consumption under control to a certain extent but don't want to have a boat that will struggle too much with a load. Seeking to find that perfect balance, if at all possible.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       05-24-2019, 4:02 PM Reply   
Not an A22, but I use a 2279 on my 16 MB F22 with the Raptor 400. Similar use case. Works great for us across the board, including surfing with 5K lbs + in the boat. I also ran a 2249 for a year and a half and it worked very well - tons of pull - but ran a bit higher rpm than I wanted. However, I will be putting it on when we take the boat up to Lake Tahoe at 6200 feet again this summer. Up there the 2279 was awesome for cruising and tubing but on the edge for surfing. 2249 worked great up there the prior summer - again, just cruising rpm were higher than I preferred.
Old     (Matt0520)      Join Date: Feb 2019       05-26-2019, 3:50 AM Reply   
Not Acme, but we ordered our boat with the OJ950 and really like it.

Surfing at 10.8 with 3500# of ballast plus 3-4 adults and we're turning 3150-3200rpm. Not sure about what it is wakeboarding (haven't looked). Also no idea what top end is
Old     (formerathlete)      Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Seattle       06-12-2019, 7:57 AM Reply   
I think I'm going to go with the 2279. Came down to that one and the 2277. 2277 has more cup and therefore will be a little too much of a big lake cruising prop. I think the 2279 is slightly better all around and still meets most of the sea level low end needs we'll have. It might even end up being our main prop over the 2249. 2249 will have to be the prop for a while though, at least until we recoup some funds after this boat purchase. Counting the days until delivery, time is just dragging.

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