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Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 4:01 PM Reply   
This topic is poisoning too many threads... if anyone wants to discuss, do it it here...
Old     (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-10-2008, 4:36 PM Reply   
I think it's rad that so many people thought it would mean the end of Soven's dominance. (And that so many people were so wrong.)
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 4:57 PM Reply   
yeah i thought that was pretty funny too... If anything the new system was always going to favor him...

(Message edited by rod on June 10, 2008)
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 8:09 PM Reply   
Ok Rodney

Rodney,

the point was that this system was meant to take away that factor that it could be manipulated.
This DRIVE system is fairer, no I dont believe this new format is fairer than the previous. So Rodney how is it that this new system is fairer and better. You seem to know so much about it but cant seem to offer any explanation as to why, other than telling me to start a new forum, nice one Rodney
Old     (mxflyer281)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-10-2008, 8:18 PM Reply   
^^^ I got my hater blockers on
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 8:38 PM Reply   
the new system was meant to make it easier to explain results easier... Each judge is only looking at 3 or 4 tricks, so it is easy to tell who won each category... It was never meant to make it less manipulative... YOU CAN'T MAKE IT LESS MANIPULATIVE BECAUSE IT IS SUBJECTIVE!!!!!!! Say this to yourself 10 times till it sinks in Fred... Again... it is the same with surfing etc etc etc etc... It is designed to make the riders have a well rounded contest run which truly reflects the sport... It means the riders can only have the hardest tricks in each category, but also makes the rider look different to the last. Hence the gay HS 5's you talk about... The big poked out HS 5 replaces filler tricks that have no real thought placed into them such as rushed KGBs etc... It means that when protesting a rider can immediately see where he or she lost, which was possible with previous formats. Protests were always followed with a the most vague reasons you can imagine! The System that is still used by waterskiers with Intensity, composition, and execution is a joke. not even gonna go into talking about it

The new system has been given the unanimous approval of the top 50 riders in the world! Why bitch about it!? If they believe it is good for the sport, why not accept it and embrace it? What would they all know i guess, they are just the riders! I guess a someone working in a waterski shop would obviously know best... again... idiot. The next time you are riding under the new format, your input would be welcomed. Until then...

Hows the shop going fred? Slow day today out there? ;)

(Message edited by rod on June 10, 2008)
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 9:06 PM Reply   
Wow Rodney,
such aggression, you must be someone that rides at competitions then, someone really important for you to be so rude. I guess you rudeness is only followed by your arrogance,ignorance and bad manners.This system was sold on the fact that it would eliminate any doubt on who is the winner, take away that subjective element that was evident in the old system. As I said before I think change is good for the sport to help develop and push it forward. Maybe when they had the riders sit down discuss and vote on it maybe they should have made it a secret ballot and not a show of hands. I am not trying to be rude to you and dont really appreciate the rudeness that you have shown me.
I like you have a passion for the sport and only want to see riders get the best possible outcome at events.
What shop are you talking about Rodney I dont work in any shop. Obviously you have issues with someone that does work in a shop maybe you should ring who ever it is and sort them out.
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-10-2008, 9:11 PM Reply   
no im not a rider, im just someone that cares about people making waves for the sake of making waves... which you most certainly are. Research before you speak
Old     (gdillyfunk69)      Join Date: Nov 2003       06-10-2008, 9:13 PM Reply   
I agree with the new system.... Rodney you are dead on!!
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-10-2008, 9:15 PM Reply   
Ding, ding, ding,ding!!!
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 9:33 PM Reply   
what waves,

so I am not allowed to have an opinion and you are come on.
Maybe there is room for improvement on the new system. Yes Rodney maybe I am someone that cares about the sport as well and does not want to see it go in the wrong direction either.
I have seen both systems and both have there inheirent problems, I am not trying to make waves just pointing out facts, nor am I trying to discredit you Rodney unlike what you are trying to do to me.
Old     (liquidmalibu)      Join Date: Sep 2007       06-10-2008, 10:20 PM Reply   
I think Rodney has been drinking Rum....
Old    fred_bloggs            06-10-2008, 11:54 PM Reply   
If anyone can answer this question.

The judging format they used in th Jnr mens is different to that of the Pro's.
The junior mens they still use 3 judges and the Pro's they use 5.
I think that they are moving in a good direction with the new format but it does need to be modified I believe,
example you win a category in spins you do a ts9 hs7 bs7 and a switch hs7, and you recieve 20 points for winning this category the next rider does a t/7 bs3 hs5 and a tsbs3 he recieves 18 points, so the guy that does the harder spins is only rewarded for winning the category and not for how hard it is to do those bigger spins.The guy in second place still gets his 18 points, the same could happen for mobe tricks, again the rider who might be doing a mobe 5 trick isnt rewarded fairly for doing that trick, so he wins the category with 20 points and the next guy does only a normal mobe he gets 18 points and so on.
This is how they judged the junior mens on the weekend.
what are your thoughts and I am not trying to start any trouble I am just wanting to get a better understanding with how it all works.
There are 2 different formats one for Pro's and one for Jnr mens.
Old     (mckenna)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-11-2008, 12:27 AM Reply   
winners win.

i cant remember which thread it was in, but people were predicting the end to sovens dominance and podium finishes for shane, lyman and vandal.

wonder if soven can go five straight wins!
Old    fred_bloggs            06-11-2008, 2:40 AM Reply   
hey its great to see Phillip winning, he is a true competitior.
I hope Phillip does win all the events he enters into.
Old     (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-11-2008, 3:03 AM Reply   
Fred the letter to Jr Men riders last week said the points for each category are:

Air 15, Spins 22.5, Tech (mobes) 27.5, Rails 20, and Overall Impression 15

Jr Men use 3 judges instead of 5 so 2 judges have to score 2 categories and 1 judge has only 1 category. Otherwise it is supposed to be the same as the Pro's.

Each judge is supposed to consider the DRIVE criteria for awarding points in each category.

D - difficulty
R - risk
I - intensity
V - variety
E - execution

They scoring is subjective on the value of points awarded in each section. I understand there can be as small as .25 points difference in the score for winning vs 2nd place in a category. That doesn't create much seperation. There were several cases in the Pro were the final scores were only .25 different. One of the pro's dads said that was a "tie breaker". Judges had the riders tied .25 points was given to the rider who won the most categories.
Old    fred_bloggs            06-11-2008, 4:08 AM Reply   
Hi George,
thank you for your response. my point is still a rider who does the harder tricks is only rewarded 20 points for winning this catagory whilst 2nd place gets 18 points regardless of what they did. They need to look at this and come up with a different value.
Given that you are saying they need to look at the drive criteria for each category it still doesnt work when you have 2 judges judging 2 different categories and 1 judging 1 category.
You can only use the drive criteria when conidering the whole of a riders run not just one judge judging a category.
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-11-2008, 5:13 AM Reply   
I think I see Fred's point and I am interested in understanding this better.

Fred, is your point that someone could win a category by a huge margin and get only a 2 point advantage over second and someone else could win another category by a slim margin and receive the same advantage?

What are the points for finishes in the categories?

I am new to the sport and do not have an opinion about what is right, I just want to understand better.
Old     (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-11-2008, 5:34 AM Reply   
I don't believe it is automatic that the second place rider gets 2 points less. If that was the case then with 5 categories there is no way a rider could get 95 points. If they won 3 of 5 categories and got 2nd in the other 2 they would have 96.

From what I observed if some one wins the category and the next best rider is not even close the judge can give alot less points.

The points for each category as I stated above are:

Air 15
Spin 22.5
Tech 27.5
Rails 20
Overall 15

Fred, the letter to the riders says each judge is to consider the DRIVE criteria. I don't know what they are doing, I only know how they told the riders they would judge and what each judge would look for. I can see how the "spin" judge can look for DRIVE seperately from the "tech" judge.
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-11-2008, 5:57 AM Reply   
Hey George - looks like you are taking the job of tutoring me in multiple categories.

So, is it your understanding that in rails the riders could be very close and finish say 20, 19.5, 19 and 18.5 while in Tech they could score 27.5, 20, 15, 5?

Does the winner of each category automatically get maximum points regardless of how well he rode?

George, I think is possible to get 95 points even if there is set points for each place in each category. Maybe third place is 5 points less and someone could win all categories and get third in one and end up with 95 points. Or the scale could be different in each category. Maybe second in Air is 2 points less than first and second in Tech is 3 points less than first so someone could get first in Spin Rails and overall and get second in Air and Tech and end up with 95 points.

I am not saying I think that is how it works. I have no idea. I am just saying it is possible.
Old     (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-11-2008, 6:13 AM Reply   
I am not trying or pretending to be an expert in this. I'm trying to learn how it works along with everyone else. I developed the following matrix. It looks like the 2 point drop by position is correct, in the 4 person heats the total scores were always 360, and in the 5 person heats the total scores were always 400.

Air Spin Tech Rails Overall Total
1st 15 22.5 27.5 20 15 100
2nd 13 20.5 25.5 18 13 90
3rd 11 18.5 23.5 16 11 80
4th 9 16.5 21.5 14 9 70
5th 7 14.5 19.5 12 7 60


With that there have to be lots of ties in categories and they split or average points. If you look at the scores in all of Sundays heats there are lots of .25, .5, .75 results.
Old     (kneeboarddad)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-11-2008, 6:52 AM Reply   
George has it right.

Example- The judges score you air- 1st 15 pts, spins 1st- 22.5 pts, tech 3rd- 22 pts (27.5 -5.5), rails 2nd-18 pts, and overall 2nd -13.5 pts. That score would be 91.

It still is difficult and subjective. One rider throws a ts and hs 7 and a bs 5. The 7's are sketchy and not the biggest. The next rider throws a ts 7 and a bs 5 but are both clean. Who wins. The first rider threw one more 7 but the 2nd rider threw bigger and cleaner. I don't know. I have not seen it explained to that detail. I would hope execution and intensity would win out over having more tricks. On the other hand I don't think a guy who throws big clean ts and hs 5s should win over the ts and hs 7 even though they were executed better because the level of difficulty and risk would be so much greater.

The other question was what if a guy absolutely kills the competition in a couple of categories? A guy who throws a two 360s and beats the guy who threw one 360 is the same as the guy who throws a 9, a couple of 7's and 1080 and beats the guy who threw one 360.

Another example- rider 1 throws two 7's a 9, a whirly 7 and a KGB 5 but sucks badly on the rails and gets 4th place and falls on his one big air trick (0 points), Rider 2 throws a couple of 5's and one mobe and 2 inverts but slides the best and wins the air with a nice glide. Who wins? Obviously the first rider killed him but the system would look like this- Rider 1- tech 27.5, spins- 22.5 pts, rails 14 pts, air-0 pts, overall 1st- 15 pts for a total of 79 points. Rider 2 got 2nd in tech and spins (24.75+20.5), won sliders and air and got 2nd in overall (20+15+ 13.5) for 93.75 pts. Hmm- doesn't seem right.

At the pro level this probably won;t happen. I think the system is pretty good. The key is to know the rules. Getting 0 points in a category for not landing a trick in that category is huge compared to getting at least 4th or 5th place points. But still, I don't know. Do they discuss this in judges training? Do the judges go through extensive training so there is consistency and understanding among the judges?

This would be a good interview subject for wakeworld. Dave W- why don't you get Austin or someone to interview Bish and have him explain how the judging works, how they are selected, trained, etc. I think it is a pretty good system but it would be nice to know. I think the parents are diagnosing this more than the riders but that is not a bad thing. I think this is a good discussion.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       06-11-2008, 7:01 AM Reply   
Can someone please answer this. Why is it that the judges at pro events are riders/ex riders themselves who hang out/party with all the contestants year round...isnt' that some sort of independence issue?
Old     (alevitt)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-11-2008, 8:20 AM Reply   
The one thing you guys are missing out on is that each category is weighted differently. I'm not sure how it breaks down, but I know each category (5 in total) are not weighted 20 percent each. I know that Overall Impression makes up only like 10-15 percent while tech makes up like 30 percent. I don't have the exact breakdowns, but I could probably find them out.
Old     (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-11-2008, 8:48 AM Reply   
Adam, I have listed the weights in 2 previous threads.

Sam, I agree that the friendship could be an issue, however I don't know where you can find judges who are not very knowledgeable riders who know all of the tricks. Switch, toeside, heeside, mobe vs spin. Look at all the arguments about Phillips Crowemobe 7 vs 1080. I'm an old guy that has watched my son develop over the past 7 years, it would take an outsider huge amounts of time to learn all the tricks and gain credibility with the riders.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-11-2008, 9:23 AM Reply   
Rodney, whomever you are.., you are rude. I see Freds point. It's obvious that any system at this point is flawed. And to introduce it half way thru the season is even more of a joke. Sam is right. When are they going to stop using judges that are a conflict of interest. If you change the system change all of it and get new judges that don't have any interest in their friends that they are judging. This is why no system will work until they change the people behind it.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-11-2008, 9:41 AM Reply   
"The System that is still used by waterskiers with Intensity, composition, and execution is a joke"

What waterskiers are using this (or even wakeboarders)? Please don't say tricking because they don't, they are actually trying to move that way because wakeboarding has shown it to be better. But they don't. Waterskiers have nothing to do with that scoring.

Intensity, composition and execution......

Totally different from difficulty, risk, INTENSITY, variety (kind of composition), and EXECUTION...
Old     (alevitt)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-11-2008, 10:22 AM Reply   
Sorry George, my bad. I can't be bothered to read every word in every post sometimes. Call me lazy.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       06-11-2008, 11:10 AM Reply   
George, good point
"I don't know where you can find judges who are not very knowledgeable riders who know all of the tricks"

But why is there not some sort of restriction during tournament weekends with the judges....it's pretty normally in other judged sports. How many other sports do the judges and contestants drink beer ( among other things) with each other before/after being judged?
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-11-2008, 12:50 PM Reply   
Honestly, some of these judges are older riders from the past that have been long since passed up by these young kids trick list. The tricks are so technically different from what alot of these older guys used to do that I can't see how they really understand the difficulty anyway. Quite simply it is a conflict of interest to have friends judging friends. For this sport to go to the next level of validity it is going have to make some changes that actually make sense. Switching up the judging format halfway through the Jr. Mens season is just a joke. Alot of these kids are only 14 and to ask them to understand something that none of us adults can figure out is ludicrous. Many of these kids have been training most of their lives to compete a certain way and now you switch it to make it better, HA. I'm not buying it.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-11-2008, 1:17 PM Reply   
Randy it sounds like you think someone is getting the short end of the stick, All the riders I know think the new judging system is good. It seems like the best riders are still making it to the finals... It's one 3 min pull you ride good you move on, you don't you sit on the beach!
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-11-2008, 1:44 PM Reply   
I don't know who's getting slighted but it leaves the door open. Obviously Harley Clifford rode great and did'nt win so some folks are a little confused thats all. Nothing has ever been clear with the judging in the WWA so why should we believe in it now. Especially when there IS a conflict of interest.
Old     (lf23)      Join Date: Nov 2007       06-11-2008, 1:51 PM Reply   
Best way to look at it is take the last Jr Men final in Minn. Harley does slim-5, crowe-5, pete, and maybe another 2 mobes. Unfortunately, he doesn't slide that well and someone else in heat beats him in sliding. Although he killed it in Tech, all it does is win him that category. He basically did too much in tech. He should have taken a tech trick out and added another spin. If he had done that, he still would have won tech and he would have won spin, and the tournament. It's important to try to win each category but with the least amount of tricks thrown in that category to win it. Lastly, yes, its still subjective scoring but at least its easier to look at it and debate the scores. Lastly, look at Pro Men finals in Minn. For tech, Phillip does sqeezer5, whirly 5, back mobe, T/S roll/blind.
Andrew does crow5, pete, moby dick, back mobe, and KGB. Who wins tech??

Andrew won, Phillip won all other categories and wins tournament. It's still not 100% clear but definitely better.
Old    fred_bloggs            06-11-2008, 2:28 PM Reply   
Ok,

as I said before riders arent being rewarded for the bigger tricks. Wont this hamper the progression of the sport, riders arent going to throw as many hammer tricks now. If someone is good enough to have 2 or 3 sevens in their run as well as a couple of mobe 5 tricks then should they not be rewarded more for that. As I said before this system has problems that should have been worked out before they introduced it to the sport. I believe Randy is right that they need to have a good look at the judges, maybe they should mix the judges up on the Pro Tour, if these guys that judge are friends with the riders then it would be difficult for them to seperate their friendship from judging. If this sport is to move forward then this is an important issue. Some you people are obviously parents of these kids that are riding and I am sure you have invested lots of time and more importantly money into this sport, you guys should deserve better than you are currently getting in relation to the overall running/judging of this sport.
Old     (lukewtwt)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-11-2008, 2:33 PM Reply   
Fred,

If you think friendship with the judges is what is winning Phil all these events, you might want to think again.
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 2:40 PM Reply   
Riders can only have their hardest tricks in each category, because if you have a weak trick in any category then you are exposing yourself to being beaten in that category. So the new format in fact pushes the sport harder than before. Hence the riding being better than previous years. If you come last in any category, then you dont deserve to win the contest because you arent the best wakeboarder on the day
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-11-2008, 2:40 PM Reply   
Phillip is clearly the best talent out there right now and that is why he is winning. Plus they go head to head which helps keep that clear. Jr. Mens is different cause there are 4 contestants in the finals. Does'nt really work the same. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-11-2008, 2:45 PM Reply   
I think Rodney thinks he's got this all figured out. Congrats to Rodney. In his eyes he's the smartest one on this thread. Dream on......
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 2:45 PM Reply   
There is no head to head at all this year. The Pro's are all heats...
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 2:46 PM Reply   
I don't understand how you can't see this?! There are 5 categories, and you need to win them, so wouldn't you think that you need only your best tricks to win them????
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-11-2008, 2:54 PM Reply   
Using that theory, wouldn't everyone be doing the same tricks, because it is the hardest in that category? Wouldn't that be the opposite of what they are trying to move toward? From what I've seen in the videos of the finals, they are not throwing down like they used to.
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 2:59 PM Reply   
Not everyone does the same tricks though. Some riders are better than others, such as Phillip, and can simply do everything. The riding is very diverse, so the riders do the hardest tricks they are capable of in each category, such as Watson's mute crowmobe (ole 7) compared to phillip's crow 5. Does phillip's crow 5 beat out watson's mute crowmobe because it has an extra 180?
Old     (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-11-2008, 3:02 PM Reply   
Whatever scoring system they use I think Philip is going to win every stop.Doesn't matter how they score it. That's a record that will stand for a while.
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 3:05 PM Reply   
We all have different opinions on this which is awesome. Some of us obviously don't see eye to eye on this either, which is not a bad thing either. It just seems stupid to pick over small things in the new judging system, rather than look at how many more positives have come out of it. Yeah I'm sure there are going to be loose ends that will be tied up at the end of the season, maybe not... The riders will decide on that when it is time, the same way the riders fixed up loose ends when it was introduced from down under. The riders are the ones that are most affected by all this, and the top 50 pro's in the world are all stoked on it. Shouldn't that be all that matters?? In the mean time, I think we should all jus chill, sit back and enjoy the sick riding we are seeing this year...
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       06-11-2008, 3:13 PM Reply   
I like the new scoring system and the riding at the Fort Worth stop was waaaay better then last year, everyone has stepped it up IMO, not near as many falls and a lot of full passes, not to many riders got pick up by the jetski, so the comp flowed alot better then the past years IMO.

(Message edited by innov8 on June 11, 2008)
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       06-11-2008, 3:15 PM Reply   
Sorry double post.

(Message edited by innov8 on June 11, 2008)
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-11-2008, 3:26 PM Reply   
Jr Mens riding ability is off the charts and clearly the podium(s) at the events this year point to the best jr mens riders out there period.
Old    fred_bloggs            06-11-2008, 3:33 PM Reply   
Agreed teamvaldez,

as I said before maybe it is time to change the judges up and get some new ones in the boat, what is wrong with that.
I am sure there are many more people out there that are more than capable of judging events and distancing themselves from the riders, whats wrong with that.
Dont tell me the riders know best. for example you would let Mike ferraro sit in the boat and judge as he is a great coach but doesnt ride at a competitive level.
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 3:37 PM Reply   
I think the "riders know best" is just a general rule. I would think Mike Ferraro would be a great judge, but once again, i think that if the riders feel there is a problem with judging, then im sure they will voice their opinions at the end of the season. However, the results seem to be bang on with Pro's and Jnr Men
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       06-11-2008, 3:43 PM Reply   
ahhh yes....good ole honor rule, lol.

If their supossed to be professionals, judge them with professinal judges.
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 3:48 PM Reply   
They pretty much are professional judges. They have been judging on tour for 5-6 years. Who are you talking about when believe riders are getting short changed by judges. Again, the best riders are currently winning in all divisions. Sounds to me like they are doing their job pretty well?
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-11-2008, 3:50 PM Reply   
I am enjoying this thread and am learning a lot about judging in general and the new system in particular. Thanks to all the contributors.

The only thing I would like to add is let's take a moment to thank all the judges who do a very difficult and thankless job without which this sport would be impossible.
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-11-2008, 4:02 PM Reply   
sounds like you have all of your brain Rodney!
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 4:03 PM Reply   
Glad someone thinks so! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!
Old     (kyle_m)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-11-2008, 4:07 PM Reply   
sounds to me like rodney is the smartest person on the bandwagon his way or the highway nobody elses opinion matters to him
Old     (kyle_m)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-11-2008, 4:08 PM Reply   
haha just givin you a hard time rodney lol no hard feelings i hope
Old     (rod)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-11-2008, 4:13 PM Reply   
HAHAHAHAHAHA! stubborn much?
Old     (wakedad33)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-11-2008, 4:50 PM Reply   
Regarding the Mike Ferraro for judge comment, Mike coaches a lot of the riders on the tour, then we would be having the same discussion of Judging by friends of riders. The system is new and will be fine, the riders and judges will figure it out. I had a question / concern at MN. and talked to Bish, he took the time to explain it to me, he's on top of it. As someone said above the best riders are still the ones on the podium. This thred is intersting in a way with all the concern with the new format, I don't think anyone that posted here rides the tour and the majority of the riders seem to like the new system. Give it time it's all good.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-11-2008, 6:28 PM Reply   
Randy S. I'm with you, the riders will adapt, the best riders will win for that day...
Old    fred_bloggs            06-11-2008, 9:04 PM Reply   
Hi Randy Scagliotti,

so to a point you would agree that there is room for improvement with the new judging format and the current judges "of judging by friends of riders".
Just a thought, people wanted a new format as they thought the old one left it up to the judges and was to subjective, then why not also go that one step further and change the judges as well. Rodney in his wisdom pointed out that the judges had been doing this job for 5 or 6 years, he also thought the old system was not fair and did not represent the sport as it should be, please remember that those same judges are now using the new format so what has really changed.
Maybe with a new format should have come new judges.
So how would one become a judge on the Pro Tour, what are the qualifications to becoming a judge, is there a criteria for it. There is a criteria for driving the boat, so why is there not one for judging.
This is supposed to be a professional sport, so with any organization there are policies/procedures to be followed, where are the policies/procedures for this sport.
I know it is a sport but given the level of current sponsorship dollars one would think there would be those type of things in place.
Some may argue that it is only a sport but how many people are trying to make a living out of it.
Old     (wakedad33)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-11-2008, 9:43 PM Reply   
Fred, there is always room for improvement in any sport that is judged. The tricks are more complex then ever before with so many moves being switch now. I've been around this sport since 1994 (damn I'm old) and have judged grassroot contest for many years, but in no way could I attempt to judge a pro contest. Chris Bish listens to the riders and will make adjustments accordingly. It's new, it's not perfect, but it will get better. My .02
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-11-2008, 10:45 PM Reply   
Hey Randy, that was more like a dime!! Well put!
Another thing about Bisch is that he wants everybody to "get it" At Masters, he announced to the whole meeting (including parents) that we would give everybody his cell number so if they had any questions! Now thats giving!
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-11-2008, 11:03 PM Reply   
Fred, its pretty cowardly to hide behind a aka when criticising the new system, most other people commenting on this thread are using there real names so why don't you man up and use yours.

If you don't your opinion lacks vale because its impossible to judge what your biases are.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-11-2008, 11:38 PM Reply   
Fred, are you related to Harley? or another rider? Robin/ jacob and Eddie Valdez Randy/Alex George/Philip Fred/?
Old     (mitch_langfield)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-12-2008, 5:08 AM Reply   
i think i have a fair idea who fred is....
Old     (liquidmalibu)      Join Date: Sep 2007       06-12-2008, 5:11 AM Reply   
do tell mitch...

i don't think it's bill? he uses his name on the other sites?
def an aussie but.
Old     (driving)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-12-2008, 7:02 AM Reply   
Randy hit it dead on. It's not always perfect, but Bisch, as well as all of the other judges are open for discussion. If they feel an error was made, they change it. I personally think the new system is a lot better and it, as well as the overall riding will improve with time.

As far as friends not judging friends, it's near impossible. Show me someone who is not connected to a rider or a company in someway. You can't do it. But, I am confident in saying people don't get thru just because their buddy is judging. And, for criteria, that's a tough one. I know this year they got together and judged videos of old contests, but other than that what can you really do. And, yes, for driving the boat, you have to pass a standardized test. Does that make you a good boat driver? No...the only way to get better is to actually do it.

And, going big is getting rewarded. Look at Randy. He has done well with the new system. If you do a mobe 20 feet in the flats, that is obviously going to score better than one wake to wake.

There are a ton of other issues in this thread to get to, but as it has been said, no matter what the system, the best riders will always be the best riders. Does the podium really look different? No, but the riding sure will.
Old     (lf23)      Join Date: Nov 2007       06-12-2008, 7:47 AM Reply   
To summarize, everyone directly involved/associated with the pro tour thinks Bisch and the judges are doing a good job and the new scoring system is better. The only criticism is coming from people with no direct involvement in the Tour. The problem with this site is that alot of people have opinions with absolutely NO knowledge of what they are talking about.
Old     (pyrosmurf)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-12-2008, 7:52 AM Reply   
Not exactly the biggest mystery in the world.

So when does the X-Star arrive Fred?
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 9:49 AM Reply   
This sport needs to grow in so many ways and it is, but slowly. More money needs to get generated so that everything that needs to be done, can. This sport has some of the smallest prize funds I've ever seen. There is no score updates available for those of us who can't make it to the tournaments. We just get to hear about it second hand. So pardon some of us if we seem a little out of the loop. I personally love wakeboarding and would like to see it go big time. But how, the riding keeps getting better and with that comes controversy. From what I can tell most riders can barely get by financially and only the top few riders are getting part of the prize fund. I don't know how but it sure seems if the sport had more money to work with alot more progress would be made in every aspect of the sport. Including judging. To advance, every sport sometimes needs change. Training and then mixing up these positions seems to be the way to go. But that takes money. Our heroes are the wakeboarders and I just wonder if they are really getting what they deserve after putting their bodies on the line everytime they hit the water. Travis is the best driver in the world and there is no dispute there. Travis, thank you for your input.
Old     (kneeboarddad)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-12-2008, 11:59 AM Reply   
Randy Stewart- What are you talking about? More money? Most of the riders are all ready making hundreds of dollars a month. You should see what the drivers make.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 12:32 PM Reply   
Yeah David, lets see, how many gallons of gas can they get with all those bucks? Oh darn I forgot they need to eat too!
Old     (kneeboarddad)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-12-2008, 1:01 PM Reply   
Don't forget rent, travel, entry fees, and general living expenses. Yep, these guys are living the life of luxury. Seriously though, I would love to see more money in the sport. There are a few guys doing really well and a few making a living but many more are struggling to make it. (I do hope you know I was being sarcastic in the other post).
Old     (lf23)      Join Date: Nov 2007       06-12-2008, 1:22 PM Reply   
He definitely did not know
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 1:24 PM Reply   
Oh Yeah, I know you're a parent and you've probably spent more money then we should mention helping Austin live his dream. I just think these kids better have a back up plan for there lives or life is going to hit them hard when they can't ride anymore. If they think it's tough now, just think what it will be like when they don't have those hundreds of dollars a month of income coming in. Do you realize most of these wakeboarders don't even make enough to justify filing a tax return.?
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       06-12-2008, 2:32 PM Reply   
Learned a lot from this post! George, your posts were especially helpful.

It does strike me as a bit unprofessional and subject to biased scores with the using the same judges over and over who get chummy with the entrants. Yeah that can be remedied, at least partially, using a panel of judges that rotate through events that all have some sort of standardized training that agree to some professional code of conduct to deal with conflicts of interest. But in the end, I don't see this sport following paths of other sports (NBA, MLB, or judged olympic events) with more rigorous codes of conduct. This sport has a kick back vibe and impartial judges showing up in sport coats or stripes just wouldn't fit. Not much money to do that either. If there were major problems with scoring, the riders and sponsors would and should be raising protests.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 2:38 PM Reply   
I think if the riders did'nt like something, some may be afraid to speak up cause they might feel as though it would come back to haunt them. Especially cause a judge may take it personal.
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-12-2008, 3:03 PM Reply   
There were many meetings with some of the respected and top riders of the tour way before this system was implemented,to get their feedback prior to making the switch. It has caused a stoke that I havn't seen in a long time with alot of the riders that wern't the typical contest riders. At Acworth, to see Randall, Benny G and Jeff Mckee go through and to see the fire in their eyes and the smile on their faces was awesome.
Randy, the whiners(and whining parents) are well known. If a respected rider were to state their case, it would be listened to I am sure. As for parents, they need to stay out of ANY kind of protest. Let the rider state their case.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 3:26 PM Reply   
What was the reasoning behind implementing this system halfway through the Junior season. Was that the plan all along. And why not at the beginning of the season to keep it consistent. I've never seen rule changes in any sport halfway through. Just curious. No need for the hostility Team Valdez.
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-12-2008, 3:30 PM Reply   
From what I have heard, it was asked for by a large majority of the jr men riders. And I heard that FROM a large majority of the jr mens riders. As for hostility, I meant no hostility nor did I see any when I reread my post.

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