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Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 3:39 PM Reply   
Well I'm a parent who may someday compete my children and I don't appreciate being called a whiner if that is what you are refering to. I like this sport and I think parents are the key to this sport along with the riders. Without the parents support for their beloved children this sport would die. Cause I don't see where the money would come from to support them.
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       06-12-2008, 3:44 PM Reply   
One more thought on the scoring itself. I do not see anything major wrong with the fairness of the points system itself, but since the scores are relative, it makes it impossible to have scores available in real time for the crowd and contestants. For example, you get to see the scores posted after each rider hits their freestyle MX run, another purely subjective sport, and that engages the crowd and adds drama. Wakeboard tourneys with this scoring will never be able to offer that kind of drama of knowing what score the next rider has to beat or knowing, nearly instantly who the winner is.

The tourneys I have been to seem like the wakeboarding contest itself is secondary to the social things going on. Def. not the same kind of feel you get at other sporting events. Just a casual observation from a fan who knows nothing about competing at the pro-level.
Old     (teamvaldez)      Join Date: Apr 2003       06-12-2008, 3:53 PM Reply   
Well Randy, you are in a conversation with quite a few parents who seem to have a grasp on whats going on. I think that it is great that you want to have your kids compete. And in no way did I call you a whiner Randy, I don't even know you. I was making a general statement about some that are KNOWN on the tour. But because your child is not competing, you would have no idea, and really you are much better off! Congrats on your future ripper!
Old     (supradoug)      Join Date: Dec 2001       06-12-2008, 3:59 PM Reply   
Anthony...er Randy don't you have a Jr that competes now?
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 4:11 PM Reply   
We all need to get started somewhere. I was told this was the best site to have discussions with knowledgable people and that is why I am interested. I have tried over and over again to learn everything going on out there before I invest my money into an exspensive sport such as this. I'm just having a hard time with all the confusing info or lack of. Love the sport, hate the drama.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-12-2008, 4:15 PM Reply   
Doug, how did you figure that out, is it true? I'm still trying to figure out Fred Bloggs, I still say it'a harley's dad.
Old     (hawkeye7708)      Join Date: Feb 2007       06-12-2008, 4:19 PM Reply   
I personally really think the new D.R.I.V.E. system is a breath of fresh air into the sport. I've really enjoyed watching some added variety in the runs that i've seen on the videos. It seems to me that this new format really encourages riders to show the best they've got, but additionally, to show their diversity. I think it really gives the fans the ability to see the different areas these riders excel at, and also, allows the riders to mix it up.
There is no perfect system, and especially with this being the first year of its application, there is going to be some mixed reviews, and mixed understandings. This is evident by the different POV's above. I'm no expert on the new judging system by any means, but I will say, from a spectator's standpoint, I've really enjoyed the change. Way to keep the sport fresh! I dig it.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 4:23 PM Reply   
By the way Doug. I have six kids that I hope to have competing someday. Sounds like I'm gonna be broke for a real long time.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-12-2008, 4:25 PM Reply   
nicely put Ben!
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-12-2008, 4:29 PM Reply   
Future ( Ryder)...
Old     (diddy666)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-12-2008, 4:33 PM Reply   
If you have 6 kids that want to compete, unless you are making big bucks, you better start saving. Major bucks unless they have rich friends with nice boats and free gas. 6 kids 1 pull per day=3hrs+
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-12-2008, 4:34 PM Reply   
Cut it out Gordie.
Old     (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-12-2008, 4:43 PM Reply   
This thread is entertaining. Parents getting all bent out of shape. At least it's making my day go by faster. Robyn, email me a list of whinning parents so I can avoid them in Phoenix! Lol... Just kidding....

p/s I'm keeping my kid as far away from competative wakeboarding as possible. This sounds much better and is way more lucrative. "Now teeing off LPGA superstar Layla Hahn"

(Message edited by solo on June 12, 2008)
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-12-2008, 5:41 PM Reply   
Hey Steve, glad to see you and your family made it home safe! Hope everyone had a good time...
Old     (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-12-2008, 5:55 PM Reply   
My wife didn't like Orlando that much. She hated all the bugs....
Old     (supradoug)      Join Date: Dec 2001       06-12-2008, 6:35 PM Reply   
solo, stay AWAY from Robyn, Gordie and Randy......and me if i'm there......I have first dibs on the pool house.
Old     (driving)      Join Date: Jan 2003       06-12-2008, 6:59 PM Reply   
You have the right idea Steven. My kids are getting golf clubs too! I'm going to start now and hope to get on the seniors tour.
Old     (solo)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-12-2008, 7:08 PM Reply   
"Now teeing of for her final round, coming in at -15 under par, Korean phenom, Layla Hahn!!!!"
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-12-2008, 7:13 PM Reply   
We are new to this sport and compared to other sports we have been involved in, we have found the parents and athletes to be very well behaved.

I do not expect my kids to make a living at this, but I hope they will learn some lessons about life, sportsmanship, hard work and fair play.

Our experience in wakeboarding has been the best sporting experience we have had so far.
Old     (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-12-2008, 7:14 PM Reply   
Ben i think you hit the nail on the head. Great post. I agree 100%.

and i'm with Hahn and Moye when my time comes my kids are getting golf clubs and a catchers mit. ha.
Old     (mitch_langfield)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-12-2008, 7:39 PM Reply   
can anyone find the I.P address???
Old     (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-12-2008, 7:42 PM Reply   
what happened to mr bloggs???

i hate whiney ass parents. nothing pisses me off more than an over zealous parent. we all know you want the best for you kids but at the expense of making a complete fool of yourself and giving your kid a bad name? get real.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-12-2008, 7:49 PM Reply   
I think its too early to jump to the conclusion that Fred is a over zealous parent, there's other stakeholders in wakeboarding with barrows to push.
Old     (lf23)      Join Date: Nov 2007       06-12-2008, 8:52 PM Reply   
AtThelake, you're correct about the relative scoring. That's why at Master's this year they went back to the old system of scoring since the scores had to be given right after the rider rode.
Mitch, how are your knees, have you started rehab yet? And what are you talking about???
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-12-2008, 10:25 PM Reply   
Hey Mitch, Larry say's whats up, he wants to know if you will be in Phoenix? But do you think I'm right? Fred hasn't posted since I brought that up.. Anyways Harley rips.. If your coming shoot us a e-mail you guys can go winching.
Old     (mckenna)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-13-2008, 9:15 AM Reply   
i doubt its bill. because he would always sign off

bill.

i doubt he would be scared to use his real name here.

whoever it is... stop throwing off you pussy. man up and admitt your identity mr fred bloggs.
Old     (kneeboarddad)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-13-2008, 2:01 PM Reply   
I actually have liked the parents I have met at wakeboarding. If anything, wakeboarder parents are more mellow than most other sports. Whatever endeavor kids are in there are more than enough parents to ruin it. You should hear the horror stories with motor cross. I have been to soccer matches, basketball, swimming, etc. I have kids who act, cheer, dance and spelling bee as well as debate teams. It is the same drama. Why wasn't my kid chosen, they should be front row, he needs more p.t., ad nauseam.

We have looked at watersports as a great family adventure. Thanks INT and WWA. We traveled to a lot of fun places, have seen our kids do well and not so well but learn from both. I know pretty much all the parents posting here and they are really good people. Yes, we have all sacrificed for our kids to do this. Maybe even spoiled them a bit. But we all have the best interest in doing what is right for our children. We are heavily invested both financially and emotionally and probably have made a few mistakes (I have at least). Parents want to understand all the rules and how there kid can do their best so that is why you see all the questions. It is better than parents who don't give a hoot about their kids. I am just saying that for every parent on here that whines or whatever there are many more that are good for the sport- Valdez, Randy, Murray, Butler, Gordie, Ryan Anderson dad, and a few more.

Randy Stewart- as far as Austin goes he is on his own now. He is a full time university student and we help with that. He works his tail off trying to make it in the sport. He works at several different things and has different businesses to make money. He came back home yesterday on his way to a clinic and then a photo shoot. When he wasn't training he was working on his business. Literally 14 to 16 hours a day. He has no time for girl friends or much social life. He ekes by, making ends meet but gets by. Plus he goes to school. I am proud of his work ethic and business practices and know that he is developing into a very responsible and successful citizen. And wakeboarding has been a big reason for this. I better step off my soap box.

PS- all you parents putting your kids in golf. Yep, that isn't a competitive environment. Parents don't push their kids or get all upset when JR. misses a three footer.

(Message edited by kneeboarddad on June 13, 2008)
Old     (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-13-2008, 2:17 PM Reply   
my comment wasnt to anyone in particular on this board. i was just making a statement after i asked ab mr bloggs.

sorry if my post was muddied.
Old     (wakester)      Join Date: May 2008       06-13-2008, 2:45 PM Reply   
I've been told by many that Austin is an outstanding person. It is good to see that he is thinking outside of wakeboarding for a future. It's also great to see him follow his athletic dreams in wakeboarding. I applaud your efforts as a father. I only wish there were alot more Austins to go around.
Old     (kneeboarddad)      Join Date: Sep 2005       06-13-2008, 4:54 PM Reply   
Thanks Randy, but one is all we can handle. . I have no idea how I got off on that tangent. It must have been the beer I was drinking with the judges,
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-13-2008, 5:30 PM Reply   
Hey David, Austin is a great young man, cant wait to see him here in Phoenix. He txt Larry this morning and he is more then welcome to stay with us, as long as he can put up with the mob, the Anderson's and the Valdez's he'll be good to go... Nice post and your right there are alot of good people and kids all over the country
Old     (mitch_langfield)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-13-2008, 11:05 PM Reply   
hey Gordie,

im not in america anymore i blew my knee out again, cant ride till feb next year.sucks soo much wish i was over there.... even with a stuffed knee its fun.
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-14-2008, 4:56 AM Reply   
David - Your post from Friday at 1:01 is exactly how I feel.

Everybody in this sport - athletes especially, but also parents, vendors, event organizers are all good quality people.

In the short time we have been involved in this sport we have been welcomed with open arms. We have been helped by people we have come to know well and helped by people we hardly know.

I am trying to learn how to help my kids progress and George Aslinger took the time to send me a personal e-mail to give me some advice on helping my kids design a competitive run.

I am been doing some amateur heat scoring and I scored Andrew Adkison's heat at wake games. I ran into him at that event and told him about my scoring and he took a genuine interest in how I was doing it - even though I am sure it is not even close to the actual scoring system.

I ran into Andrew again in Texas at Cablestock and he was very generous with his time with me and my son Ben.

I ran into Phillip Soven at Carnival this year and he very graciously expressed appreciation for our involvement in the sport and offered encouragement for the development of my kids.

I could go on and on with experiences at Nationals and Worlds last year and at local grass roots events like the Gravel Tour here in Orlando.

I genuinely believe that the wakeboarding community has a very special and unique quality I have not seen in any other sport.

Threads like this that get people talking about the sport can only help it grow and hopefully attract traffic that will allow the sport and athletes to prosper.

Contributors to this thread have helped others like me understand the system better. My participation in this tread will help me enjoy future events as a spectator and help me prepare my kids should they progress enough to compete at the Junior Men level.

Some of you in this thread I have met, others I hope to meet at future events. Thanks to all, I have really enjoyed and gotten a lot out of this discussion. I believe that your contributions to discussions like this will help us show the world what a wonderful sport we have.
Old     (wakeparent)      Join Date: Jan 2005       06-14-2008, 8:40 AM Reply   
Hey Mitch, were very sorry to hear that, Take care of yourself so your back on the water and anytime you want or need a place to stay your welcome. Larry say's get well soon.
Old     (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       06-14-2008, 12:27 PM Reply   
WOW too much to read but really i coulkd care less id rather see these guys free ride in videos and maybe hear about the results and see the pro contests runs in a vid.

I say this because really this has nothing to do with me or us in the real wakeworld and we want to ride and see riding ,who wins at a contest is not our concern or really why we ride..

So save yourselves some trouble and stop overthinking this unless you are a rider in the contests...

now go ride!

:-)
Old     (hoosairboy)      Join Date: Aug 2005       06-14-2008, 2:28 PM Reply   
"I say this because really this has nothing to do with me or us in the real wakeworld and we want to ride and see riding ,who wins at a contest is not our concern or really why we ride.." and I probably am better than all those guys anyways and just because I suck at competing has nothing to do with this and the judges suck and thats why I cant do well in comps , and, and , oh wait my mom is calling I better get off the computer cause I am grounded. OK I really don't even wakeboard I just like getting on these blogs and tell you how cool I really am. You should see my surfing blog- I whine on the same way there. I can't surf either I just like whining.
Old     (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-14-2008, 2:44 PM Reply   
People see all the money in golf and think that's the way to go for their kids. You think wakeboardings expensive........?? I have a stepson who was a scratch golfer at 15. Problem is there are a couple of million other kids that are also scratch golfers. To make any money at golf is difficult.Really difficult. Watersports are better anyway
Old     (mitch_langfield)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-14-2008, 8:31 PM Reply   
if we all love the sport so much. why does one small factor have everyone arguing.

can anyone here say they only wakeboard because they want to be the best?

i donno about you guys but because i love it so much it doesnt matter if i win loose or get DQ ether way im still gunna get on that board and ride it....because its fun!
Old     (bucnoles)      Join Date: Jul 2005       06-14-2008, 8:41 PM Reply   
Well said Mitch! Now if we can just get the parents to see it the way you do!
Old     (mitch_langfield)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-14-2008, 11:47 PM Reply   
im not sure a parent can understand it.
its a feeling that a wakeboarder get when they ride but parents like the feeling of there kid winning so that probably why there will always be arguing.

just got to sit back and realize "It's just wakeboarding"
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-15-2008, 4:48 AM Reply   
Some may be arguing, but I think most are just trying to understand. However, I think even the arguing is good for the sport.

I would love to see more money in wakeboarding to help the awesome athletes we have make a decent living and support the growth of the sport.

Discussions like this attract traffic to Wakeworld, which helps them sell adds which brings money into wakeboarding.

Educating parents and fans helps bring deeper knowledge about the sport to a broader group and increases interest in the sport which brings more money into the sport.

How many armchair experts do you suppose are out there right now second guessing the coaching moves of the NBA finals.

I think it is great. This thread has provide me a greater understanding of the judging system - albeit still extremely limited. But nonetheless, I can't wait for PWT #4.

I would like to see more trick lists like have been recently posted for the Pro men and women finals.

I would like to see the detailed scoring of the heats.

I would like to do my own math and speculate about what would have happened if somebody had done this instead of that. What if so and so had dropped a tech trick and done another spin or someone else had skipped a hit on a rail to get another wake trick in.

This is is what sports fans do and I think the more we can encourage this kind of interest in the sport the better it will be for all. And maybe in a few years more than just the top few riders on the pro tour will be able to make a decent living.
Old     (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-16-2008, 8:50 AM Reply   
mitch i think you hit it on the head. in my experiences its the parents who have actually competed themselves who often take a laid back approach to what their sons/daughters do. they know and understand what its like to simply love what it is your doing and they're the ones who are less likely to go overboard or be overzealous.
Old     (brucer)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-16-2008, 6:47 PM Reply   
nothing like a heated debate to get people thinking! it's great to see such passion.

my name's bruce robson (my real name) and i, along with the riders here in australia developed the new judging system. just wanted to clear the air before i get attacked for not knowing what i'm talking about. it's great to see it being further developed in the big circus.

every judging system is only as strong as the arguments put forward by the winners and losers. but i've never heard a winner complain....

the old system had 'composition' judges. what exactly is composition? is it the elements in a run or how well you delivered those elements? it was very subjective and very hard to explain. i heard the reason for so many decisions as "it was your composition", with no facts or objectivity to back it up.

the new system is for the judges. who, by the way, usually don't care who's on the end of the string. they love wakeboarding and are stupid enough to put their hands up to rank riders against each other in the hope of getting to see some rad riding up close! runs should not have changed that much, they have always been about a mix of tricks, taken large and landed perfectly. the system is just an easier way for judges to categories tricks.

i'll end up rambling here if i don't stop soon, so here are some points to consider and hopefully understand the system a little better:

wakeboarding has always been about a well-rounded run. we've just created a new way to justify that.

you have to bring your hammers to a contest, but polish them up and make sure they are the best ones for each job.

the points are for ranking. you don't get extra for winning a race by a greater distance, wakeboarding is no different. 1st is still 1st, 2nd is still 2nd. fred's argument that a big win in a category should count for more is not fair or practical.

you can't write down tricks and compare them without witnessing them first hand. a run is dynamic and can only be judged by the people who focusing on the job at hand and making notes. speculation after the fact is always clouded.

judges can only judge what you land and can't turn a blind eye to a trick you wish you hadn't done the way you did it.

how you do a trick is as important as the difficulty of the trick. how else can a judge decide between 2 rider's versions of the same trick.

parents.... i truly hope you're having as much fun as your kids with wakeboarding. winning is a bonus and there's only one each week.
Old     (sorg67)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-17-2008, 4:37 AM Reply   
Bruce - Thanks for your further clarification. This thread has been one of the most enlightening threads I have ever read. I am having as much fun as my kids. I even ride in some of the local tournaments (I do not say compete because what I do does not qualify as competition ) but I have fun.

Mitch - Thanks for your comments about the athletes perspective. As a spectator it adds flavor to understand what the athletes are thinking. Clearly there is a whole lot I do not get about people who do what it takes to become the best at anything, especially something as punishing as wakeboarding. Maybe some of it I will never get, but I am enjoying trying.

I have no opinion about whether someone should or should not get an advantage by winning a category by a large margin, but I am glad I now understand how it works.

I was discussing Harly's run from PWT #3 with another parent at a competition last weekend. His perspective was that Harly could have dropped a mobe and still won tech and he should have done that to do better in another category. Perhaps if he did he would have won.

Maybe, though he does not care so much about winning and he does his big hammers because he likes doing them even if it is not the most strategic choice. I would love to know. It might make a great post game interview question for a Fuel TV segment. I would be interested to hear the answer.

As a spectator, having that understanding makes watching much more dramatic. It is of course always enjoyable to watch big tricks being thrown by talented riders, but to understand the significance of what they are doing adds to the drama.

Tiger Woods making a 12 foot putt would not have been so dramatic yesterday were it not to tie Rocco in the US Open playoff and extend it to additional holes.

Landing a Crow 5 is always dramatic to watch no matter what it is for, but it is even more dramatic when it is for something.

This is all great for the sport. More buzz brings more attention and support for the sport. For those who have some disdain for the commercial aspects - just think new boards and gas money.

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