No Ballast Tige - Austin Boat Show?

Went to the Austin Boat Show yesterday and saw some great boats - the Supra 22V World Edition was hot.

I had a long discussion with the Tige dealer and I was wondering if what he says plays out here. He indicated that with the unique hull shape and the TAPS, there is no need for any ballast to produce great wakes for wakeboarding for all but the pro riders. He indicated Tige offers optional ballast, but only the pro riders need it, that the non-ballast wake is equal to other boats with ballast. He indicated they sell 95% of their boats with no ballast because it is not needed. He said the TAPS allowed the driver to effectively sink the boat, thereby creating a good wake.

Does that sound right?

(Message edited by WakeShoe on January 20, 2008)

Trust me. You'll want the ballast. The wake isn't as big as they say without ballast.

yeah, other tige sales people in the past said that same bs to me too.

Oh boy here we go again.

fwiw, one of my favorite wakes is (believe it or not) the one my friend's tige' 21v throws. he's got lots of ballast in it.

Is it still true that Tiges have a higher 'empty' weight than other brands ?
That and TAPS could produce a better-than-usual empty wake. But for por-level wakes you will need lots of ballast and horsepower to push it.

Correction...
por-level = PRO-level.

(for if you'd want to translate my typo to 'poor-' )

Tige dealer told me that the tige weighs more empty than most boats of the equivalent size do with ballast full. As if to brag. I would think gas consumption would be a concern, both in the boat and tow vehicle. It would be like driving around with all your ballast full all the time.

(Message edited by newty on January 20, 2008)

Eddie,
The Tige dealer did say their boats weigh more than other wakeboard boats, but he didn't say how much more.

Please note, my posting was not intended to bash Tige's. It was just to figure out if the dealer was correct about no ballast and the fact that 95% of their sales are without ballast.

My 22v without ballast was comparable to my Moomba LSV with ballast (looks like you have the same one I had). That being said, you'll want to have ballast, from the factory or your own custom set up. I have 2 x 450s bags in the rear and an integrated bow sac, along with 400 lbs of pop bags.

LOL

I think that a pre-requisite to being a Tige dealer is to be full of ••••••••••••••• and to be a pro at talking bad about the other brands.

Its like short man syndrome.

Tige weighs more than most other boats so you have the equivalent of a couple hundred pounds of ballast with you always. The slightly more round bottom on the hull along the center line gives it a bit of suction into the water when at speed. That can make it drop a little further into the water when the wakeplate is all the way up. But those are not huge differences. What the TAPS does it not sinking the boat but taking the hull design that would be inefficient

Tige dealers always tell you that you don't need it but you will want it. I have an '07 RZ2 and wish I had the factory ballast. The real reason they don't push it is because from all boat mfr's the #1 thing that breaks (or customer complaint) or doesn't work all the time is the factory ballast system (from what I was told). By eliminating the #1 thing that breaks, you eliminate a potential warranty problem.

Wake size and the need for ballast comes down to one's expectations and perception. So, when someone says "you don't need ballast" You need to think "what level rider I am, and what do I expect out of a wake. So, this so called BS being thrown around by Tige dealers is not really incorrect, but may be inaccurate for most boarders.

The Convex hull produces the wake by allowing the hull to settle low in the water, instead of plane out. In a scene, it is a water displacement hull much like a big cruiser. The TAPS is a wake shaping device, same as many tow boat manufactures are using now. TAPS does nothing more to produce a wake then the Hydro-Gate on a CC. The Tige Convex hull, with no ballast, will produce a good wake that most any skilled rider can do most any trick off of, But will not satisfy most advanced riders. My Tige is going into it's third season with us, and is just now getting ballast installed........ONLY cause we are surfing.

This would be no different then the sales person at the auto dealer telling you that you don't need a 4wd truck..........you are the customer, you need to decide what YOU need based on how you intend to use it.

Unfortunately, this marketing plan has caused Tige boats alot of grief.

If you want to wakesurf, you will want ballast too. You can get away without it but it's much more fun with a bigger wave. Honestly I am not good enough for the stock wake on my Tige, I run the taps at about 6 to get a nice clean rampy wake and it works for me. When we load it down with the v-drive sacs it gets pretty big but it really is more than needed for my abilities.

I have a 06 22ve and I like it with or without weight. If I am worried about gas and just want to work on basics the stock wake is great and I can still do inverts but if I have a group that wants more I load it down with sacks and end up with a killer wake. If I was going to buy another tige today I would definately get the factory system.

good response, tigemike.

to be fair, i've heard salespeople for other boat manufacturers say that their 1000lb(+/-) stock ballast is enough.

The bottom line is that any of the newer boats, no matter the manufacturer, needs 2000+ pounds of ballast to give you a nice sized, not scary big, nice shaped wake. This number varies depending on the size of the boat.

I have a Malibu and it has 1250lbs factory ballast. This isn't even close to enough to get a fun wake in my opinion. {fyi - I am not an advanced rider.}

If Tige's dont need extra ballast, then why did Lyman fill his with 4000 lbs when he was still sponsored by them?

that would be like saying why do all pro's with x stars put around 4000lbs in their boat. cuz its what they need to do their stuff.

Here are some weights from the websites.

Tige RZ2 - 4150
Mastercraft X-star - 4250
Supra 22SSV - 3800
Nautique 220 - 4070
Malibu VLX - 3600

I would say that it is right in the middle. Myth busted. Tige boats are good boats. I have owned one and TAPS works good for shaping the wake. You still will need ballast if you plan to progress to an advanced level. They offer it, but it will eat up storage space. If the boats truly didn't need it, why offer it at all.

Mike Ennen did a demo and he was throwing down behind a stock 210. Im just saying, you need something in the boat. Riding without ballast is only for people trying to learn the basics. Trying to advertise that you dont need ballast is misleading to people who intend to wakeboard.

(Message edited by malibuboarder75 on January 20, 2008)

Leo makes a good point. The stock 210 was a very narrow beam and a lot easier to sink than the bigger model boats that are out today. I think the 06' and older 210's were like 92 or 91 inch beams. Something like that.

I also heard the statistic of "95% of orders are without ballast" from Tige at the Austin boat show this weekend. I actually think it might be correct, but perhaps misleading. The key missing information is what percentage of orders from other boat companies are done with full factory ballast? There are so many general use, family boaters buying inboards these days, for all I know, 80% or more of inboards sold are ordered without the full factory ballast. I think most would agree that Tige do perform a little better than most other boats do with no ballast. So, take that fact and the fact that the dealer is saying 'you don't need it', and I could see the 95% number being true if the general number is in the neighborhood of 70-80%.

"I think most would agree that Tige do perform a little better than most other boats do with no ballast"

I wouldn't agree with that. I would say about the same. The RZ2, X-star and 220 unweighted all feel and look about the same to me.

I can say that my 07 22SSV's wake is worlds different between zero ballast and full ballast and visibly noticeable with even 1/2 ballast (where we most often ride).

The statement that Tige is making is their own to make, however it seems misleading to say that a boat will perform to its full potential without added weight. That is true with any boat on the market today.

Even the boats that are not designed as wake only boats will produce a larger and "better" wake when a bit of weight is added.

Never, ever listen to a dealer's sales pitch, unless it's backed with hard evidence (even then, put them to the test).

Three things lead to greater displacement:

narrower beam
vee of hull at transom
heavier hull weight/downforce (aka ballast, wedge)

With Tige's hulls weighing on average only about 200lbs more than competing hulls, the difference is negligible. Additionally, a wake plate will do nothing to increase wake size, and will only serve to minimally adjust wake shape.

I bought my 2002 22i last year for wakeboarding and they told me that it had a huge wake. When they took me out for the water test we were pretty new to wakeboarding and they drove at like 19 mph so the wake looked pretty good (at least for us at the time being new to the sport). 3 months later i was on the internet ordering 1500 lbs. of fat sacs.. now the boat throws a great wake. nice and clean. do all our inverts, and pretty much anything we are able to do.


all boats need ballast and the ones that have it need more..

taps... is for making the wake smaller for skiing. it doesnt make it bigger.

One maketh the wake by displacing the water.
One displaceth the water by mass/weight-in most cases with static "weight" a la ballast, in malibu's case dynamically via the wedgie.
Dealers and even some riders seem to purposely or accidentally (as a function of ignorance) confuse wake size and wake shape.
Items such as taps do not change the amount of water displaced, rather, they change the way is behaves as it fills back in to the hole your boat made-(you can also think of them as changing characteristics of the hole you are making).


(Message edited by mars on January 21, 2008)

Ok, my statement about "most would agree..." was probably too general. It's been my personal experience that if I have to ride behind a boat without ballast, I'd prefer to ride behind a Tige, but I haven't ridden behind every boat out there by any means.

Anyway, my point was more that the 95% statement might be totally accurate as I don't know how many of these boats in general are sold with ballast from other manufacturers. I agree with everyone else that if you are a serious rider, you will want ballast.

BTW, I don't think anyone at Tige would argue that the wakeplate is making the wake bigger. They are saying that the convex shape at the back of the hull makes it sink more than other boats when the wakeplate is not in use and this is what creates a bigger wake. I thought their marketing was pretty clear on that part.

Almost any of the brands boats will need extra ballast for advanced level wakes. We load up our X-Star with an extra 1 1/2 tons. It eats up all the storage and requires extra maintenance and lots of gas, but that wake is just awesome !
I'm sure a non-loaded Tige might be very comparable or better to a standard ballast boat of any brand.
From our experience (no Tige experience), a Nautique is producing the most usable wake with just the standard ballast, just because it is a steeper wake. Need to still add a bunch more to get advanced level though.

As if ONLY PRO RIDERS want great wakes. Any boat that pulls people who are SERIOUS about wakeboarding wants a TOP QUALITY WAKE.

i talked personally with a few of the pro riders and they sack their boats with atleast 2500lbs of ballast, idk if that is ontop of the factory ballast.
i just got an RZ2 and love it! i'm not a high level rider though

my favourite dig with Tige is with TAPS. you set TAPS to full wakeboarding to get the biggest wake.
for the same result you could take the dam thing off... does nothing to make the wake bigger...
as for not needing ballast, you may not 'need' it but like all ballast you are going to want it

The wake on my 24V is terrific without any ballast.

I can shape it from steep to rampy on the fly in 3 seconds as well.

I have seen plenty of advanced inverts performed off of my wake unballasted, so if you cannot do a trick behind my boat, it is because you cannot do it, not because the wake is insufficient.

Having said that, I installed a ballast system in my boat, and now nearly always use it. Why not? I just have to flip a few switches and the wake goes from good to excellent in a few minutes. Having a larger wake helps to make up for my technical deficiencies, and I am a very mediocre wakeboarder. You don't need to be a pro to want a big wake, it just depends on how often you are going to wakeboard, and if you are at least going to get to the point where you are jumping across the wake.

A large percentage of folks who buy these boats do not even get wake to wake, and they would be fine without ballast.

When I bought my Tige ( 2001) it outweighed everything on the market in the same size class by almost 1000LBS. Today- all boats weigh about the same. Personally, I don't think this is an advantage. When I lived in Seattle, we'd drive over the mountains to the Columbia all the time and I don't think there's anyone out there that would make that drive with their ballast tanks full- and that's what it was like!

Wake-wise: it's good if you're a beginner or intermediate. If you want SERIOUS pop and air then ballast is needed. I run 350 in each rear compartment and I'm adding a center bag (700LBS) this summer. But I don't fill them when it's just the family and the wake is still good.

Surfing- You'll have a tough time beating the tige wake for surfing- I put both 350's in one locker and the wake is outstanding.

Tige makes a great all-around boat. Which is what MOST people look for when they're dropping 50K+ on a toy.

So the bottom line is even the Tige guys think Tige boats DO need ballast. Now everyone is on the same page and the dealer was full of (you know what)...

Yep... even the mighty Tige is subject to the same laws of physics and hydrodynamics as everyone else. They do throw a nice wake though don't they.

I think that the sales guy has got to know who the audience is. Some people will never want ballast. It really depends on how you will use the boat.

Talltigeguy -

You hit the nail on the head!

A few years ago when I was boat shopping I decided that I would give each of my local dealers an equal ear as to find out which boat and dealer would be best suited for me. When I asked my local Tige dealer about the base options that a particular boat came with I noticed that he didn't mention ballast. When I asked him about that he went into his spiel about Tige's not needing ballast.

That's fine if he feels that way, but he never qualified me as a customer. He never asked what I would be using the boat for, what skill level I was at with wakeboarding, etc. He had no idea what kind of wake I was looking to build. It really put a bad taste in my mouth, not so much towards Tige, but more so to the dealer. In sales, thou shalt not assume!

On the flip side, when I bought my Supra Marty had two SSV's left, one with a play pen and one with a walk through. Marty qualified me by asking what I would be using the boat for. Although I preferred the graphic on the walk through SSV, Marty steered me towards the one with the playpen. Knowing that I would be using it for wakeboarding he knew that having the extra space in the playpen locker I would be able to upgrade the ballast to make the wake as large as I wanted it, where as with the walkthrough I would be limited.

Who knows, perhaps if the sales guy at the Tige dealership would have asked a few questions instead of pushing his spiel on me, today I might be driving a Tige?

Good post richard.

Talltigeguy and nauty are right.. but then again the sales people at most dealers have ZERO sales training. This is not a Knock on boat sales people-just a personal observation. Having spent my life in a highly competitve sales arena (medical devices and capital equipment) I have attended countless courses in need satisfaction selling, customer psychology, etc. These courses are expensive - but worth it and I wish more sales people would invest in them. They can seriously help your career.