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Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-30-2008, 8:15 PM Reply   
I recently had my 2005 MOOMBA LSV over heat and took it to a local marina qualified to work on INDMAR engines. They found that my impeller had failed and ended up causing about $600.00 in damage to cables, wires, plugs and exhaust bellows. After labor costs the total bill was almost $1500.00. I have had my boat winterized and de-winterized every year since 2005. The shop in Michigan "Club Royale" that did the winterization work told me that the impeller is not an annual/100hrs. required replacement item however INDMAR and Skiers Choice have both told me otherwise. In addition to being replaced, the INDMAR owners manual states that the impeller is supposed to be removed and stored in an airtight bag as part of the winterization process. The last time I needed to have my boat de-winterized I asked what was involved to see if I could just do it myself. They told me to put the plug in, connect the battery and break in the boat slowly due to the engine preservation chemicals in the block and carburetor. Obviously they didn't follow the guidelines from the maint. manuals because they didn't need to reinstall the impeller. Since it sounds like Club Royale is not following the written guidelines set down by MOOMBA and INDMAR I think Club Royale should pick up the tab on this damage. Please reply back with any suggestions or past history you might have had or heard about. THX.}
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-30-2008, 8:18 PM Reply   
I think they screwed you over bud, if you have a good lawyer I'd have him/her give them a call. I'd only resort to this if you've tried to work it out with them. You're really lucky you didn't fry your engine. Do you still have your receipt from the work they did?
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-30-2008, 8:21 PM Reply   
Luckily I still have my receipts for 3 of the 4 jobs they did. The kicker is that when I called today they told me they had no records of me ever getting the boat worked on there. Fishy????
Old     (ttuclint)      Join Date: Sep 2003       04-30-2008, 8:27 PM Reply   
I have never had my impeller taken out for the winter, and this is having winterization done by a Malibu dealer.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-30-2008, 8:35 PM Reply   
I'd go in there with your reciepts and see if they change their tune.
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       04-30-2008, 8:41 PM Reply   
Hmm never had my impeller removed at winterization. Am I reading this right you did not have your impeller changed and it is the dealers fault?
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-30-2008, 8:43 PM Reply   
The problem with going in and getting face to face is that I am in the Coast Guard and I transferred to Jacksonville in October. The damage happened here so I had to take it to a shop here. It's still a dealer though. They should be able to reimburse me.
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-30-2008, 8:48 PM Reply   
Kevin - I think it's the dealers fault because they were not following the dealers directions on how and what maint. should be performed. If I were you I would try to avoid the mistake I made and review the hourly and yearly maint required on your boat. Just because the shop doesn't tell you that it's due (even though it is what you are paying them for) you should know what needs to be done.
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       04-30-2008, 8:58 PM Reply   
"you should know what needs to be done."

I could not agree more

So are you saying that a different dealer should reimburse you??

(Message edited by krbaugh on April 30, 2008)
Old     (tpyle)      Join Date: Feb 2006       04-30-2008, 9:01 PM Reply   
Was this the original impeller? Did you know what Indmar's guide lines were as they were winterizing/summerizing your engine? Your local shop in Jacksonville my be an Indmar dealer but they are unlikley to respond as this isn't an Indmar issue.
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-30-2008, 9:11 PM Reply   
Kevin -I am saying that the dealer in Michigan should reimburse me for not doing the prior maint the way the manual says it should be. If they had then the impeller would have been replaced twice by now. This was the original impeller and the boat had gone through several winterizations and 2 annual inspections with no mention of the impeller. I am surprised to see how many people have never changed their impeller now that I know what I know.
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       04-30-2008, 9:24 PM Reply   
I did not say I had not replaced my Impeller just that It is my responsibility to replace it or have it replaced. My dealer list exactly what they do in a winterization. The impeller is
Not on the list. So it is my responsibility to replace the impeller at the proper time.

Anyway good luck, but I have my doubts the dealer will do anything for you
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       04-30-2008, 9:26 PM Reply   
I hear you. I am gong over my winterization list also and it doesn't say anything about the impeller either. Thanks for the thought. i appreciate the info.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       05-01-2008, 6:02 AM Reply   
Chalk this up as a lesson learned, there's no way they are going to reiumburse you for that. Did you not notice your engine temp rising? I've had a few impellers fail. Not one has ever just evaporated into thin air, they will gruadually wear over time. If the impeller truely "failed" then go after the manuf. of the impeller.
Old     (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-01-2008, 6:52 AM Reply   
Maybe you should have read the manuals & requested the impeller change
Old     (ripr)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-01-2008, 7:58 AM Reply   
I'm sorry Ryan, but the impellor is the boat owners responsiblity. It is a wear item that is recommended to be changed every year (in the manual).

I don't know about you guys, but everytime I'm out I watch the temp gauge more than I watch any other gauge. .

It sucks that this has happened, but, consider it a lesson learned.
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       05-01-2008, 12:27 PM Reply   
I never thought of impeller changes as routine winterizations. That is something you have to request separate, which I am sure they would have done. Now if your block cracked after they winterized - gloves on.

The main cause of the damage is not the impeller per se, but running the boat while it was too hot so even if the impeller was standard winterization service, it would be sketchy as to liability. I know you might not think this, but it could have been worse - warped heads, main bearing, thrown piston, etc.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       05-01-2008, 8:05 PM Reply   
This is an interesting thought.

I think that most casual boaters are in the same boat...they take it in, ask the dealer to do what they do to maintain it and expect that the dealer knows what should be done.

My dealer would ask me if I wanted the impeller changed if I did not tell him. I think someone should have asked him too, but unfortunately I do not think this is grounds for the dealer to foot the bill for repairs.

How long did you smell smoke before the wires started to melt?
Old     (wakeshoe)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-01-2008, 8:38 PM Reply   
I have a 2004 Moomba Mobius and have had it winterized at the dealer each winter. This dealer is one of the top rated service shops in the Skier's Choice family. They do not take out the impeller as part of winterizing. I sincerely doubt that removing the impeller is part of the winterization standard by Skier's Choice or Indmar, at least in Texas. Perhaps it only pertains to significantly colder environments. When I do take it in for any service or winterization I always ask what items might need to be done. The service manager tells me what we might want to do and we jointly decide what actually gets done. For example, he might say, "your impeller hasn't been replaced for 12 months, you might want to get that done - it is recommended you get it replaced every 12 months". I have had it replaced twice. I think you need to have discussions with the service folks so you understand what is going on and make informed decisions on what gets done.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-01-2008, 9:37 PM Reply   
There are a few different opinions when it comes to impellers.

Some will say.. if it aint broke.. dont fix it... but be prepared to fix it.

Some will say... replace it every year... but it doesn't mean it will implode on you right away... but be prepared to fix it...

So if your motor is screwed because of overheating due to impeller failure... it is not a warranty item.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-01-2008, 9:50 PM Reply   
I agree with Naw & Hamkj, the impeller is your responsibility and a separate issue from winterisation
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       05-02-2008, 5:18 AM Reply   
Thanks for your info. I pretty much figured that people would think that this was my fault. I am a pretty young boat owner and rely on my experienced mechanics alot. As per the manual put out by MOOMBA and INDMAR they have specific guidelines for doing maint. and if the shop isn't following these rules why aren't they liable? This is definatly a hard lesson learned and hopefully you guys will take this with you and not let it happen to you. To all you tough guys with smart ass posts like "maybe you should have read the manual" tell me something I don't know dicks.
Old     (stanfield)      Join Date: Mar 2004       05-02-2008, 5:41 AM Reply   
The manuals put out by Moomba and Indmar say a lot of things that people, not only shops, don't do. Ultimately it falls on you to make sure you do it or specifically pay somebody to perform that task for you. Like most have said, a new impellar isn't typically a part of a winterization, but usually is part of a 100 hour service. It sucks that you had to learn this way, but your dealer has no idea what you do, don't do, or want done, unless you tell them.

My manual has a HUGE list of things that should be done at a 100 hour service and I can guarantee you 99% of shops out there wouldn't do 100% of the items on that list. My advice is to get to know your boat and perform these routine maintenances yourself. You will save time and money and have peace of mind knowing that it was done right. There is a wealth of knowledge here than could help you out with almost anything.
Old     (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-02-2008, 7:31 AM Reply   
I was helping a friend get his 03 Supra ready for the summer yesterday. He bought the boat new and has had it to the dealer every spring and fall. I offered to help him learn to do some maintenance to save money for gas. When we hooked the water to warm the engine I noticed a leak from the raw water pump. The pump bearings and seals were totally gone. In addition the impeller has never been replaced. The original factory paint is still on the bolt/screws that hold the cover on. The boat has over 700 hours.
Old     (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 7:55 AM Reply   
"tell me something I don't know dicks."
Come on Ryan.
Sorry about my comment; it was a little harsh. It's just frustrating to see dealers & manufacturers get thrown under the bus & the customer does not want to take any responsibility at all.
Did you have an audio buzzer that went off? If not you may want to get one installed or have it fixed. Sometimes they can stop from having a full blown overheat. Like NAM mentioned the most important gauge in the boat is the temp gauge. Hope it all works out ok for you & You are back on the water soon.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-02-2008, 7:56 AM Reply   
Ryan Curry - I guess the lesson learned is not reading the manual etc... but understanding where the gauges should read and what is normal operating temperatures.

No matter what you own... car, boat, even health etc... servicing doesnt necessarily mean you won't have problems.

So it has always been the owner/operator's responsibility to identify when there is a problem...

Knowing what to do when warning bells go off... gauges, symptoms... etc...
Old     (rmack)      Join Date: Jul 2005       05-02-2008, 8:12 AM Reply   

chalk it up and bit the bullet. The only way Club Royal is going to give money back is with lawyers or small claims court. Lawyers will cost you more and coming back to Michigan will also cost you.

I live in the area and haven't heard too many good things about club royal.

Jeff, this dealer is not being thrown under anything. They should have told the owner about the impellar change. Skiers Piers, my dealer, told me the day I took deliverly and informed me to check the impellar annually.
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       05-02-2008, 8:39 AM Reply   
Alright Jeff. We're cool. Has the water warmed up enough to get the boat out yet? Not sure if you hit St. Clair too often other than Jobbie Nooner but check out the Sny off of the North channel. Water is alot cooler there but glass 99 percent of the time. Enjoy.
Old     (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 8:41 AM Reply   
I disagree with you on the dealer getting thrown under something. Do think Ryan is not responsible at all? All I'm saying is that both parties need to accept a little responsibility. Yes the owner should have been told on the day of delivery about the impeller & also yes Ryan should have read the manuals.
"I live in the area and haven't heard too many good things about club royal." This is the kind of crap I'm talking about. I've heard positive & negatives about all the dealers in this area but realize that }there are always 2 sides to every story.
Old     (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 8:57 AM Reply   
water is still pretty cold. I got some friends that have skied. Our ski club has a spring ski tomorrow so i may take the plunge then. I'm looking forward to 80 degree days. wish i still lived in FLA!
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-02-2008, 10:34 AM Reply   
Lil Tuna... Ryan...

So lets say the Dealer did replace the Impeller... and then this overheating situation occurs. Who is responsible for the damages?

Changing an impeller on a regualr basis does not give me peace of mind.

I have gone on the same impeller for 5 years and lots of hours... I have also had an impeller fail within a few hours of being installed.

Bottom line it... do you know what to do when your engine temperature goes up?
Old     (rmack)      Join Date: Jul 2005       05-02-2008, 12:31 PM Reply   
Totally agree with you on knowing your boat.

But on the other hand, you have people buying boats who know nothing about temps, gauges, ect.... The dealers need to educate the buyer on certain things like the temp gauge, oil pressure, ect.....

I went from an I/O to a V-drive and knew enough about boats maintain them, but there were a few things, like the impeller, that my dealer made me aware of when I took delivery so I didn't have problems.
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 1:55 PM Reply   
I dont understand, if the boat is still under full warranty why wouldnt it be covered???
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 2:17 PM Reply   
The same reason that if you did not winterize the boat and the block froze or if you never once changed the oil and the engine locked up etc.
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 2:26 PM Reply   

If you take your boat to the dealer and have them service your boat and the boat breaks it should be covered. If you did not have the dealer service the boat i could see how it would not be covered under warranty.

From what Ryan says he takes his boat in to the dealer for everything. I feel that when the boat breaks as long as you have it serviced it should be covered.
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 2:38 PM Reply   
Ryan took it to be winterized was given a list of what was done. IT is TOTALLY the owners responsibility to have the impeller changed.

"I feel that when the boat breaks as long as you have it serviced it should be covered."

Felling that way does not make it so.
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 2:43 PM Reply   
What in gods name is a warranty good for then???
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 2:53 PM Reply   
Lots of things it is spelled out in each manufactures warranty but owner neglect, abuse, acts of god, sinking, misuse, etc are NOT COVERED
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 2:58 PM Reply   
I don't see any owner neglect, abuse, acts of god, sinking, misuse, here. He had his boat serviced at the dealer, a part on the boat broke, it should be covered under warranty. I guess Ryan needs to read over the warranty and see what is truly covered.
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 3:07 PM Reply   
Owner neglect: Not replacing the impeller
Abuse running: the boat after the impeller went out

Look I feel bad for Ryan but it comes down to who is responsible for what. Years ago I learned this lesson the hard way I did not change the oil often enough in out under warranty Toyota Celica...the engine locked up on me on the way back from that was expensive.
Ryans lesson could have been WAY more expensive
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 3:24 PM Reply   
Ok, why doesnt the dealer change the impeller when it gets serviced? Or at least advice the boat owner that he or she should have it replaced?
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-02-2008, 3:27 PM Reply   
If I were a boat dealer... I would not want Knoblauch buying one of my boats... I would be replacing everything under "warranty". hahaha... jk
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 3:31 PM Reply   
hahaha...You are right hehateme. but when you spend that amount of money on something you expect it to be right.
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 3:49 PM Reply   
Dealers don't keep track of your hours
That is the owners job.

My dealer did not change my oil when I had the Celica tuned up. It was my job to keep track of when I last had my oil changed just like it was justins job to keep track of the hours on his impeller not to mention the temp of his engine while he was running it
Old     (justink)      Join Date: May 2008       05-02-2008, 3:56 PM Reply   
It sounds like he did keep track of his hours and took his boat in for recomended services. How many hours do you have on your boat ryan??
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-02-2008, 4:02 PM Reply   
Don't let it get out of hand here...

Bottom line is... IT WAS IMPELLER FAILURE.

Which is not a big deal.

It is what the owner did after the IMPELLER FAILED.

Hours mean nothing on an impeller. I know some going on 5 years on the same impeller... and I know others who had one replaced and had the splines get ripped off within moments of getting off the trailer.

Could have been a poor install of impeller or debris getting sucked through the system...
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 4:10 PM Reply   
No he took it in for winterization.
Look we could debate this for ever in the end
Ryan was and is responsible for keeping track of when maintenance items are due on his boat
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       05-02-2008, 9:47 PM Reply   
Living in Detroit and only having a minimal amount of time to use my boat I have only racked up 102 hours on it since July of '05. Bottom line to me is that I took my boat to the dealer that I bought it from for it's annual inspections, winterization and de-winterization. As all of you have stated, the "manual" states when and by whom certain components should be replaced. I understand if I was doing all the maint myself that I would be liable. But if the dealer isin't following the maint manual why am i still liable. It seems to me that as a paying customer you give a certain amount of trust that the job is going to be done in accordance with the printed manual. Some of you have asked how long the boat was running until I noticed something was wrong. I dropped the boat in the water, parked the trailer and when I got back the temp was pegged at 240 degrees. I could smell the burning and I killed the boat and pulled it out. 20 min tops. Thats it. Next thing I know i'm into the local shop for $1500.00. I know that it could have been allot worse but that is still alot of money to a lonely coast guardsman. I do this job for the glory, not the money. Obviosly...
Old     (krbaugh)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-02-2008, 10:20 PM Reply   
Well first and foremost thank you for your service to our country!
I have given you all the reasons that you are liable for this.
Take them or donít that is up to you.

Good luck
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-02-2008, 11:51 PM Reply   
Hey Ryan,

For pretend sake... lets just say that your impeller was replaced.

Would you be okay to pay the $1500?
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       05-03-2008, 9:18 AM Reply   
Depends. How long had it been since it was replaced? Now we are getting into a component failure warranty instead of shotty maint practices.
Old     (drive139)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-03-2008, 9:22 AM Reply   
I work at a dealer and we do not take impellers out for winterization. The manufacturer only suggests that people change their impellers every year. It by no means requires the dealer to change the impeller or do they have to remind you to change your impeller. You are a big boy and its not a dealers responsibility to hold your hand. It is a normal wear and tear item and just like the oil it is the customers responsibility to check. Anyone who owns a boat surely knows how crucial the impeller is and should always monitor the boat temp. This is all common sense stuff and if you have no common sense then you might as well sell your boat cause you dont need it. Everyone is always looking at pointing the finger for your own mistakes. Accept the fact that you messed up and move on with your life. Its people like you that give boat manufacturers bad names.
Old     (hamkj)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-03-2008, 12:35 PM Reply   

Impellers are just little rubber splines. They are very simple to replace..

There is nothing guaranteeing that an impeller will last 1 revolution or 1 million revolutions... If you suck up one little piece of debris... it could rip the impeller apart... doesn't take much.

It comes down to... you knowing when something is wrong with your boat... and then knowing what to do after something happens.
Old     (rmcurry)      Join Date: Apr 2008       05-05-2008, 5:06 AM Reply   
Hey Homo Jones.
If you had taken the time to read my postings you would have found at least 3 times that I said this was my fault. It is always interesting how tough people get on message boards when all I really asked for was some professional advise. If you are so excited about being you and ready to tell everyone you are a sales manager at a dealership, then I have to ask, Is this how you treat your customers when they have an issue? It's people like you who confirm the bad name that many boat dealers have earned over the years.
Old     (kinger)      Join Date: Jun 2007       05-05-2008, 6:38 AM Reply   
I know I wouldn't buy a boat from Homer Jones dealership. Your statement is most likely the reason you work for a dealership and don't own one! When I spend 60K+ and I go into the dealer and say I love wake boarding and want to buy a boat so I could board more, but I know nothing about them. They say its ok you need 25 hour service then your annual service, we will take care of it as long as you bring it back to us. I don't know what it needs nor do I care, I can afford to take it to them and pay their prices, I can afford their boat either they can deliver on their words or they can't I just want to board, i don't want to know about the boat.
Old     (wakeshoe)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-05-2008, 12:07 PM Reply   
The key here is having a conversation with the service manager when you bring your boat in for service, especially if you are in a short season area - you want the boat available for boating, not at the dealer's. Ask him for his advice on what other things might be needed so you can be proactive and preventative with maintenance.

Justin, you asked what a warranty was for. The starter on my 2004 Mobius died last November. The dealer was able to get my boat in immediately and fix it while we had lunch. We were able to get out on the water at 1:30pm. Cost to me - $10 because the starter was covered under warranty. Without the warranty it would have been close to $400. That's what a warranty is for. BTW, when I bought the boat one of the boat show giveaways was an option for extended warranty for 5 years. Well worth it, especially when it covers everything on the boat.
Old     (shipyard)      Join Date: Jan 2008       05-10-2008, 2:16 AM Reply   
im not going to say much, but i am also a service manager for a top 100 dealership that stocks new boats for Formula, Donzi, Baja, Malibu, Tige, and monterey.....I would never recomend changing a impeller at winterization....thats just dumb....
Old     (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       05-10-2008, 6:07 AM Reply   
shipyard, are you kidding me?!?!? When I remove the impeller during winterization and see if its bad you better bet I'm gonna recommend a new one if it needs it. And no I'm not a top 100 dealer, but maybe I should be.
Old     (shipyard)      Join Date: Jan 2008       05-10-2008, 6:44 AM Reply   
if it needs a new impeller wait until spring to put it in, otherwise it sits and has a chance of damage before it is even used....thats all im saying, absolutly if you look and think it needs a new one replace it, just wait until you put the boat back in the water...
Old     (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       05-10-2008, 6:47 AM Reply   
well of course. I reinstall the impeller during dewinterization. no way I ever keep one in whether its the old one or a new
Old     (pwningjr)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-10-2008, 9:24 AM Reply   
I turn on the tube, what do I see, a whole lot of people cryin' don't blame me. They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else, spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves. Victim of this, victim of that... Isn't it great that you can find a song that says just about anything? JK... Kinda.

I'm sorry to say, but sometimes crap happens and you just have to take a hit for it. The good thing? Now you know to replace the impeller every year.


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