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Old     (tings00)      Join Date: Aug 2005       01-11-2010, 12:57 PM Reply   
Its about time, and I really dont think this will be a surprise to anyone.

Old     (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-11-2010, 12:58 PM Reply   
In other news, the earth is round.
Old    bigdtx            01-11-2010, 1:06 PM Reply   
statute of limitations must have expired for perjury.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       01-11-2010, 1:27 PM Reply   
Big D - Haha! I thought it was funny how the guy in the ESPN article was praising him because he never lied. Not answering a question to me is the same as not answering it truthfully.
Old     (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-11-2010, 4:42 PM Reply   
Old     (jefefitz)      Join Date: May 2002       01-11-2010, 5:05 PM Reply   
i like how he told costas that nothing he ever did helped him hit a home run, the roids and hgh only helped him avoid injury HAHAhAhA
Old     (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       01-11-2010, 6:31 PM Reply   
wonder if hes gonna give back the corvette
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-11-2010, 6:36 PM Reply   
I didn't think McGwier ever lied, thought he refused to answer any questions about taking PED's and just said "I'm not here to talk about the past."

I could be wrong.....but that was my understanding.

As far as his coming clean... Could not care less.... Welcome to baseball pre-testing....
Old     (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-11-2010, 7:58 PM Reply   
I heard on the news today that he wished he had not been playing during the enhancement generation. What a load! It doesn't mean he had to take them. Not only is he weak minded, he's greedy and dishonest. Another sports idol is exposed as a tool.
Old     (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-12-2010, 6:33 AM Reply   
I love the fact that Steven A Smith managed to make it racial. He was ranting on and on about how Mark was coddled while Barry has been labeled as the face of baseball steroids. IMO one of them at least fained remorse while the other has done his best to incite those who have pursued an answer from him.
Old     (whitewookie)      Join Date: Jul 2004       01-12-2010, 8:22 AM Reply   
Those are some really high horses you are all sitting on! Lets look at the FACTS (something that kinda gets brushed under the rug these days).

He never broke a single rule (none of the supplements (drugs) he was taking were against the rules)

He never lied.

He never tested positive for anything.

He came clean on his own.

No other player of this era can make claim to any of these. Everyone else who has admitted using them has done so following a positive test which was administered after the drugs were added to the banned substance rule.

Oh, and I would venture to guess that if taking a PED would make you a professional wakeboarder, everyone on this site would be the first ones in line!
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-12-2010, 8:26 AM Reply   
Really, no kidding, who would have thought that McGwire was on roids.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       01-12-2010, 8:28 AM Reply   
Ha! Do you guys seriously consider him not answering direct questions about his PED use as having not lied?? That's pretty funny. So as long as I just change the subject when a question is asked of me in which I would need to lie, then I'm good right? What a noble act.
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-12-2010, 9:07 AM Reply   
Not talking, to hide your lie is the same as lying to me.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       01-12-2010, 9:12 AM Reply   
who cares
Old     (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-12-2010, 9:27 AM Reply   
Not answering a question "truthfully" is lying. Not answering a question, avoiding it, or making a reply which is vague or inapplicable shows signs of dishonesty. But hey, President Clinton showed us that it is okay to lie to congress and under oath. Lewinski didn't help Clinton and steroids didn't help McGwire hit homeruns did they?

All of the records that McGwire set should be admonished and the league should begin legal preceedings to recover whatever money was awarded to him and the advertisers, who paid him for product endorsements, etc., should begin litigation as well.

Today, it seems that people have no scruples and they are rewarded for it. This all gets back to one thing: The lack of religion in our society.
Old     (stroh)      Join Date: Apr 2008       01-12-2010, 9:29 AM Reply   
I hate this topic. To say that steroids do not help is crazy. But...If using steroids would get me a 7 figure contract...I'd use. I have a friend on juice and what he can do now physically compared to 6 months ago is insane.
Old     (brianmiller)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-12-2010, 9:31 AM Reply   
Brad...The drugs are illegal so they are against the rules.
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-12-2010, 9:40 AM Reply   


By akadirtbikingdad (wakeboardingdad) on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 9:27 am:

Today, it seems that people have no scruples and they are rewarded for it. This all gets back to one thing: The lack of religion in our society.

That may be the funniest thing I have read on any forum....ANY....

Yea, if there is one thing that history tells us, someone who has religion....they are good people, people to be trusted....
Old     (rubin)      Join Date: May 2006       01-12-2010, 10:02 AM Reply   
I'd much rather my kid hand out with a kid touchin priest than a baseball player...
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-12-2010, 10:08 AM Reply   
Has anyone else seen the movie "Bigger, Faster, Stronger"...? I am curious how everyone (Media, Sheeple, etc.) eat this crap up about individuals using steroids. Any sports fan (and especially anyone with a close friend who plays professionally) KNOWS that A LOT of top level athletes use some form of steroid and/or sports enhancing drug. Its a joke that baseball has become such a poster child for it when everyone is doing it.
Old     (tings00)      Join Date: Aug 2005       01-12-2010, 10:08 AM Reply   
Have you never noticed Barry Bonds earring? That's as religious as you can get. I wonder what caused him to go astray?

Old     (benbuchholz)      Join Date: Oct 2009       01-12-2010, 11:45 AM Reply   
M-Dizzle, I saw that movie/documentary when I was looking through Netflix the other night, i was considering watching it. I might have to now.

I don't think anyone's surprised about this. It's just confirmed now. Brad, "He never broke a single rule". what? Last I checked, steroids were illegal in the United States. And how does him never having tested positive have ANYTHING to do with how he should be perceived? If anything, it should make it worse, because he covered up what he was doing.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-12-2010, 12:43 PM Reply   
I think what m-dizzle meant was he wasn't breaking any rules in MLB (at that time)

I'm very surprised that the media makes such a big deal about HGH. As far as a PED it's very mild. If you wanna hit home runs there's alot better out there.

If your knowingly using a PED why use HGH???? doesn't make sense to me?
Old     (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-12-2010, 1:58 PM Reply   
Deuce, you can call it whatever you like, but I would have to say that with a comment like that you most likely have no religious convictions. That is your decision. I knew, that by just saying the word "religion" I would most likely get bashed. I'm okay with it. There was a thread awhile back that I responded to, but changed my mind because of an "attack" just like this. I wished I had stated what I thought and vowed that I would not backspace like that again.

I would rather believe in a God that promises eternal life to those who believe in him and live to a higher standard than just by doing whatever I or "man" thinks is okay or by not just breaking a law of man. By doing this, I should have lived a life where I did not take advantage of the weak, cheat, lie or steal to get ahead. (Not to mention the rest of the 10 commandments.) That can equate to nothing but good. If I am wrong about God and my beliefs, I will die just like you and will have lived a good life and hopefully made a difference. Perhaps just like you too. However, if I am right, I will have been a good person and have eternal life in heaven.

As for McGwire, he lied, cheated and stole his way to the top and into the record books. How can he actually feel good about that? Actually, he doesn't. That is why he comes forward now. I have officially hi-jacked this thread now, which was not my original intention. Feel free to pound away now.

Tings: Nobody is perfect.
Old     (rubin)      Join Date: May 2006       01-12-2010, 2:34 PM Reply   
you dont have to believe in god to be a good person dude...
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-12-2010, 2:39 PM Reply   
For all the wars and death religion has brought it sure does seem to go against a LOT of the ten commandments...Just sayin.

Ben B...its not the greatest flick but its definitely interesting and brings about a lot of pro-steroid use arguments. The video has some Massive Gaping holes as well...but I feel more informed about the situation(s).

I guess everyone who is bashing on steroid use as setting a "bad example" is pissed at athletes that use cortisone shots too...? Those are "sports enhancing drugs" that have been shown to do a LOT of damage! What about the coaching and hitting techniques in HS football? How many people do you know with lifelong injuries from playing a sport because the coach pushed them too hard or they pushed is this lifelong pain any different from using steroids to bulk up and or re-build muscles (sometimes resulting in LESS injuries to that person)? In fact the fact that its so common place for athletes to play through Concussions, pain, broken bones, (Ronnie Lott?), and other issues must really piss of true fans then right? I mean this is ALL sending the wrong message to your kids...that its okay to play through pain, not listen to your body and not pay attention to concussions.

What I am saying is the hatred towards steroids is no more than scapegoating the larger problem of properly educating children and young adults about the dangers and risks associated with all facets of life including sports.
Old     (jpod)      Join Date: Feb 2006       01-12-2010, 3:00 PM Reply   
baseball was way more interesting when everyone was all juiced up...
Old     (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-12-2010, 3:02 PM Reply   
akadirtbikingdad (wakeboardingdad) ,

I am not here to bash you/pound away ect. Hold your faith dear and stay strong to your religious beliefs. If that works for you and your family, good on you. I say that honestly.

That said, I think it is asinine to think that somehow because of your deep religious faith, you are a more honest individual than someone who does not have a specific religious faith.

In theory, you are saying.... You are a more honest and trustworthy individual than I am, because you had a deep religious belief.

I don't think less of someone because they have religion in their life.....though they sure disappoint when they start judging me for not having religion in mine.

I am done, not going to argue politics or religion.... Just end up going in circles.
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-12-2010, 3:13 PM Reply   
/\/\/\/\Well said and my sentiments exactly!
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       01-12-2010, 3:40 PM Reply   
Um, the majority of modern stregnth/size athletes (football, basketball, baseball, etc) use in some form or fashion.

Those who do not partake cannot compete with those who do with very few exceptions.

One of the joys of childhood is competition. This behavior teaches a kid that unless he is willing to self medicate himself with illegal substances, he cannot compete with his peers who do.

Like pot, most people on the outside do not realize how common the use is. In male athletic circles its as common as fake teets in female circles. You know em when you see them, and you see them alot! Its so common place that we forget what natural looks like and we assume Kobe, LeBron, A-Rod, Maguire, Sosa, Peterson,etc etc etc... are all clean guys who just work out hard.

IMO, sports starts with the kids. You kill it with drug pressure early on and the sports will be tainted and fade away.
Old     (benbuchholz)      Join Date: Oct 2009       01-12-2010, 4:22 PM Reply   
Agreed. I think if every single athlete were tested for PED, you'd find a shocking number of users. It's a small price to pay, to make 7 figures, when you look at the big picture. On a side note, as much as it shouldn't be the case, but steroids pretty much saved baseball in the late 90's.
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-12-2010, 4:26 PM Reply   
More food for thought...The main other argument...the morality argument; basically states that it the use of Steroids is an unfair advantage. One of the best arguments FOR steroid use is that it relatively evens out the field in actuality IMHO.

Take someone like Lance Armstrong or Michael Phelps who both hit the genetic lottery. Anyone competing with them "heads up, non-steroid use" wouldnt stand a chance because these individuals were given a gift that no amount of training can compete with (all other things created equal, both athletes training at a similar level). However, when you introduce steroids into the mix it allows a competitor to really add on muscle where needed and potentially negate some of the natural genetic advantages the originals were gifted. Perfect examples of this are both the slow and high twitch muscle fibers which vary so greatly between individuals. I have watched my brother struggle to gain fast twitch fibers for years while competing against people his size who work out MUCH MUCH less than him and have much more of this same muscular makeup giving them a distinct advantage.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       01-13-2010, 8:29 AM Reply   
The problem with steroids is that their results are directly correllated to quantity. This is combined with the fact that an overdose can kill you. People take a small cycle and see small gains, then take a heavier cycle and see larger gains. Thats the hook! Then its figuring out how much will kill you and back it off a hair all while destroying your bodies natural balance. Unfortunately not all eager users are chemistry/math wizards and they die.

IMO Canseco is the prefect example. Sure, steroids will put you on top of the world for a time, and even make you some money. However, that guy is perminantly damaged physically, chemically, and psychologically. Just doesnt seem worth it for brief notoriety and a couple of bucks. Canseco is now a broke, damaged, and sad man.
Old     (skull)      Join Date: May 2002       01-13-2010, 9:12 AM Reply   
Big Mac is a tool. He said on the radio that he didn't believe the steroids inflated his stats- he just used them to get healthy...and I am sure that the Atomic Bombs we dropped on Japan had NOTHING to do with all of the destruction and dead bodies that were laying around after we dropped them. Also, why did he call Roger Maris' family to apologize if he didn't feel the juice was a factor? What a f--k stick. No hall of fame for you douche bag. He should have just said "I did steroids, I did a lot of them. They absolutely helped me with my power and strength and I know now it was wrong". Why tell half truths like he is now?
Old     (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       01-13-2010, 10:17 AM Reply   
So what, he is paying the price by having to live the rest of his life with a tiny pecker.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-13-2010, 10:35 AM Reply   
^^^ lol, goes to show how many people have no real clue about steriods. It can shrink your berries...not the twig. when taken (cycled) correctly, the shrinkage is not even noticeable.
Old     (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       01-13-2010, 10:52 AM Reply   
ha, wtf do I need to know about which the roids shrink?

Better question is, why do you know so much about nut shrinkage?
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       01-13-2010, 10:55 AM Reply   
M-Dizzle - I see your arguement but how is it fair to allow someone to cheat just because they were not as naturally gifted?? So if you can swing a bat faster than me shouldn't you be required to swing a heavier one so that it evens out the playing field and we both swing at the same speed? I guess I don't see how it is fair to allow those folks that aren't as gifted genetically to gain an advantage in an unnatural way. So do you not let the "gifted" atheletes take roids to keep it more equal?
Old     (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-13-2010, 11:37 AM Reply   
I'm not as gifted genetically as most of the PGA tour golfers, but that doesn't mean the hole is bigger when I play.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2010, 11:51 AM Reply   
I hate baseball and stumbled into this thread so forgive me if this has already been said since I didn't read much..

Why does everything in our society have to be equal?
Sans steroids, why is it unfair for the 'gifted' fella to excel?
Old     (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-13-2010, 11:56 AM Reply   
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-13-2010, 12:02 PM Reply   
Random testing was a joke, and probably still is a joke. I never understood how these big name guys were testing positive?
Old     (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-13-2010, 12:32 PM Reply   
"Random testing was a joke, and probably still is a joke. I never understood how these big name guys were testing positive?"

it's called EGO. they figured they were untouchable. and because the government got involved and leaked the 103 names, they are all now crapping the bed just waiting for their names to come out.

coming from someone who knows McGwire (not me, a friend) this has been eating at him for years. however, the only reason he came out now was because he did not want to deal with the questions during the season now that he is back in the game. interestingly enough, it is quite possible you could see him on the roster as a player, come september.

at this point, I dont see how anyone who is known to have taken ped's should be left out of the HOF. guys were taking stuff as far back as the 20's. things are just a little more advanced nowadays.
they just need to break the hall down into more specific generations. the steroid era could be the "live ball era", since they already have a "dead ball era".
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-13-2010, 12:43 PM Reply   
Eubanks...Why is steroid use cheating?...especially if a large portion of the professional population is already using it? At what point does it become "cheating"? Is that at a Cortisone shot?, maybe "protein shakes" Those are both un-natural ways in which people are altering their bodies and performances, correct? Should we only allow people to eat natural foods and NO supplements? What about the elbow surgery that has been shown to allow pitchers to throw faster? Arm pump surgeries for motocross riders? I think you get my point here.

What I am saying about the whole "equality" thing is that (IMHO) steroids level out the field to an extent because now the guy with an amazing work ethic who lacks the genetics can compete with the lazy guy who is skating by (professionally) on genetics alone (talent, God given ability, whatever). This gets to the very heart of my belief that the winners should be the guys working the hardest, not the guys who won the genetic lottery. All things equal I believe that the use of steroids promotes more competitiveness as it reduces the large genetic gaps, harder work ethics, etc.

Why is it okay for someone to have been GIVEN the gift of amazing genetics to Excel in sport while its ILLEGAL for another person without those gifts to EARN his spot in the same sport?

Case in point...I have Sports Induced Bronchial Congestion. When I work out my chest muscles contract and my windpipe closes up making it harder for me to breath similar to Asthma. If I truly wanted to compete in Cycling I wouldnt stand a chance against someone like Lance. No matter how hard I worked and what I did naturally. Is it wrong for me to take steroids to "catch up" with someone who was given something I wasnt just so I can compete on a closer to level playing field? BTW, the only steroid I ever got was for my knee post op by the doctor...which is still fuzzy since I cannot remember much of what he said in post op.

I am just playing devils advocate here as I am still on the fence myself about the whole thing myself...but I do see the argument on both sides and feel bad for those who are being drug through the mud for doing the same thing many others have been doing for years...its just that they got caught.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2010, 2:07 PM Reply   
Why is it okay for someone to have been GIVEN the gift of amazing genetics to Excel in sport while its ILLEGAL for another person without those gifts to EARN his spot in the same sport?

It isn't illegal for a person without amazing genetics to work hard and earn his spot. It is illegal for that person to use ILLEGAL DRUGS to secure the spot.
It isn't fair that my best friend always 'got the girl'.. he's tall, attractive and athletic....I'm short, below average in appearance and dumpy.

Life isn't fair and I think it's really important to teach this lesson to children. This idea that everything has to be fair, there are no losers and you're a superstar regardless is setting them up for failure.
I apologize for introducing the child factor, but I think it's really important.
Life isn't fair, man.
Old     (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       01-13-2010, 2:13 PM Reply   
well said barry.
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-13-2010, 2:30 PM Reply   
I agree that life isnt fair, but I also believe that its good to teach kids that with hard work and dedication they can do anything.

When they stop seeing regular joe's who have worked hard to get there and just genetic superhumans its hard to argue with the fact that they just were not given the right genes. Look at the NBA, unless your really tall you cannot play (for the most part), same applies to Hockey...under way. Luckily there are some smaller dudes still rocking in those sports; but if you take away steroids those smaller guys may get pushed out. (not saying they use steroids, but I think you get the idea)

Regardless, Steroid abuse will not stop. Someone who has nothing to lose will always use.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2010, 2:36 PM Reply   
I agree that life isnt fair, but I also believe that its good to teach kids that with hard work and dedication they can do anything.

If that were true people wouldn't need steroids.
Old     (clubjoe)      Join Date: Sep 2005       01-13-2010, 2:52 PM Reply   
OMG, I agree with Barry on multiple posts about something!

Really....... who cares? It's professionals that are paid big bucks to entertain us. Just like our drug using better than you movie stars. I'm more annoyed that they make so much compared to people who actually provide useful and needed services toward community good..

The record is broken and it will be tainted, but he still had to see the ball to the bat. No amount of steroids is gonna keep me from crapping my pants every time a 96 MPH pitch comes my way... Put an asterisk there, say what a dark day it was and move on, baseball.

On a personal note, I won't be takin em to improve my riding, cuz muh boyz need to grow, NOT shrink to make me a better rider

Sup Thomas?!
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-13-2010, 3:34 PM Reply   
By that rational then everyone IS created equal then Barry?

My point is steroids are here to stay as there are a LOT of holes in simply saying "no steroids in sports"...and its a slippery slope. You start with Aspirin, then other prescription drugs to mask pain or help with recovery, next comes Cortisone shots...etc. etc. Where do you draw the line? At what point is it okay for someone to use steroids for years, then entering the sport clean? That's an unfair advantage as well.

Finally, the last moral dilemma. What if there were NO side effects of steroid use? They are getting better and better at altering the make up of the HGH, exploiting the good parts and deleting the bad. If there were no side effects whatsoever it wouldnt be a problem right? The continual demand for steroids and testing is partially pushing that evolution.
Old     (dav51lin)      Join Date: Aug 2004       01-13-2010, 4:11 PM Reply   
who did not use steroids in that era - not many.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2010, 4:20 PM Reply   

My point is steroids are here to stay as there are a LOT of holes in simply saying "no steroids in sports"

I don't think that's what anyone is saying, M-Dizzle. I think people are saying there should be no PERFORMANCE ENHANCING steroids in sports.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2010, 4:29 PM Reply   
OMG, I agree with Barry on multiple posts about something!

What was the other thing you agree with, Joe? I will re-examine my position and perhaps take the opposite stance so as to not upset the delicate balance. I have a reputation to uphold, you know..


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