Who has the best rigging/construction?

Trust me, I am NOT trying to start a war here, but I have an '06 Tige` that, shall we say, has been less than impressive as far as rigging goes (mostly electrical issues).

Since my nearest dealer of ANY brand is at least 4 hours away, I am looking for HONEST opinions/facts regarding the construction and finall rigging of tow boats like ours. I have owned at least six new boats in the last ten years, so I'm not new to this game, although most I have owned were not "production line" boats, but more custom builds.
My goal here is NOT to offend anyone or their boats, but merely to gain as much knowledge as I can about ALL the brands out there. I hate spending time dragging a boat to a repair shop when I have precious little spare time to start with.
Thanks in advance to all who answer honestly and with facts!

Well, Dave's Custom Boat's has the best rigging but I don't think that would be considered a Tow boat.

I have to agree...I had the blue and white F-29 that was on the cover of Powerboat magazine in '03.
It did tow a tube once... that was fun to watch!

DAYUM! You had an F-29!?!? That is so awesome! This guy Kevin that is a friend of a friend has an orange one that was on the cover of a magazine too.

Between CC, MC, and Bu I have been most impressed with Bu wiring and plumbing.

I own an 07 X-45 and love it. However, the dealer I ordered it through sent it to a satellite dealership so that it would be closer to me for pick-up. It was rigged at this dealership which is not concentrated on the MC line. There was several minor issues that were quickly taken care of after I brought it in for it's ten hour service back at the main dealership (MC only). In other words, the more knowledgeable the dealer the better the rigging. The main dealer water tests every boat and every thing on it after its final rigging where as the guys that rigged mine hooked it up to a water hose, turned the engine over and figured everything was good to go. All the issues were minor but I know if the main shop would have rigged it there would have been half the issues if any.

timmyb: Yep, sold it a couple months ago...miss it already. If you do a search for the 2004 Lake rescue shootout, you can find me under the "C2M2" class.

mikeski: can you elaborate on why the bu is better? From what I can tell, the three companies you mention are at the top, but I haven't had the opportunity to closely inspect any of them.
I did demo an X-45 (two of them-one small block and one big block), and while I was impressed with the build quality, fit and finish, and overall layout, the handling of the '06s I drove was absolutely horrible. I understand they have fixed that with power hydraulic steering and different rudders now.

John, I test drove a 45 without hydraulic steering and the old rudder style- did not care for it at all. Ordered mine with hydraulic steer and the 07's have the new rudder and it's awesome, turns better than my old direct drive ski boat.

Rigging and Construction are two different things! Malibu may have the best wiring/plumbing (part of rigging), but are lacking in construction IMO.

John,

In my opinion...

Bu has the best wiring and plumbing because they do a nicer job looming the harness into the boat, they use better wiring, their crimped connectors are done better, their ballast systems seem to work better with less troubles than others. It's not a huge difference, just looks a little more like the way I would have done it at the factory. Little things like using a wiring buss instead of daisy chaining connectors.

I own a CC because I am comfortable fixing any wiring problem but I don't want any issues with hull design or construction. I feel that CC designs and builds the best hull in the industry. Actually, I own a CC because that's what my wife felt most comfortable driving (happy wife = happy life). I wanted a Bu but she wanted the CC, we bought the CC. This is fine since we have owned CCs since 1973.

My opinion on MC is that they lead the industry with innovations, they have nicely designed boats, they build good boats.

Over the years I feel that each of the big 3 have had their good years and bad years. For any given year I might choose one over another but I do not see any reason not to buy one based on quality issues. I have also recommended Sanger, Tige, Supra/Moomba, Supreme to my friends when the big 3 are above their price point. That's not saying their quality is not has high, maybe just a little less marketing? I was quite impressed by the Wakecraft but that purchase is a little more risky since it's such a young company. Hi hesitate recommending Centurions because a few of my friends have had issues with them, however there are lots happy owners so I could be wrong.

What about the Epic??

Can of worms opened...

mikeski: That's exactly the type of info I'm looking for. If I was located anywhere close to dealers and/or factory of any or all of these boats, I would most definitely look for myself. Unfortunately, I am going to have to rely on information and the opinion of those who have done those things.
I would own a Mastercraft right now if my wife could have driven the thing, but as you well stated, happy wife is number 1.

Bocephus: I really am NOT trying to open a can of worms, but it might be inevitable.
I agree with construction vs. rigging. I don't know how each boat is actually laid up, but the Mastercraft site state they are laid up by hand. I have heard of some chopper guns being used in some boats. One of my customers is the former owner of Ranger boats, and having been through their factory several times and seeing how they build boats (using chopper guns), it seems to me that the tool being used to build the boat may not be quite as important as the PERSON using it. It all depends on the materials and use (or lack thereof in order to save money) of them. Just my opinion.
That said, it would be hard to convince me that a boat laid up by hand with good materials would not be stronger than a chopper gun boat.

I thought Tige's wiring was supposed to be better now that they went to the large auto industry type connectors (maybe that's only '07s?). I know that they are using harness type connectors now to try and eliminate wiring issues and using fly by wire now too. Everything on my RZ2 seems to be nicely done and mostly hidden from view.

One thing I was surprised at was the use of 3" diamater PVC pipe cut into 2" chunks and that is what the wire is actually ran through along the sides of the boat, seemed a little cheap to me but this is only my 2nd boat.

The 2006 Tige's have the same thing going on with the PVC.... Maybe a topic of conversation now on Tigeowners..... hum.....

Personally I think that CC and Sanger have the best construction and resulting reputation out there, but that's my personal opinion. I prefer the PCM engines, although they are somewhat more complicated in their marinization than others. If I were you I would rather have a Mercury engine since it can be warrantied by the most places.

If you want a good educated opinion go to your local fiberglass repair shop and ask various people there what they think. Ask everyone from the boss to the grunt on the grinder! I did and as a result was show several problems on several boats first hand. The knowledge that these people have is priceless IMO.

Also, even though you are four hours away from the nearest dealer the dealer is really important in your situation IMO. You need a really good dealer who will do what they say they will. When you bring the boat in for something, and you will (I don't care which manufacturer you go with), you want it serviced/repaired correctly and on time! You can't be driving a four hour drive just to get your dealer in line!

When you bring the boat in for something, and you will (I don't care which manufacturer you go with), you want it serviced/repaired correctly and on time! You can't be driving a four hour drive just to get your dealer in line!

People always say that but I bought my '04 Rinker 192 Captiva with 5 hours on it used and we put just over 100 hours on it in 2 seasons and it never had any issues at all. I know 100 hours isn't a whole lot but it was perfect the entire time I owned it.

Cigarette used pvc rigging tubes glassed into their boats for years. Not the best looking, but it severed the purpose. Most of them seem to be trying to do a cleaner job these days.

Here's another twist for me on rigging vs construction: Rigging is probably first on the list of priorities for one simple reason. I don't plan on keeping my boat for more than 3-5 years, so while I do want a boat that is built well and solid enough to be free of cracks, etc. I an not expecting it to last me 20 years. However, the time that I do own the boat i want to be as trouble free as possible, without any issues that might arise from shoddy workmanship.

My time on the water is imporant to me,and the last thing I want is to have issues that could be avoided with just a little attention to detail in the assembly department.

Wow, John hits it right on the head! I agree 100%, rigging is the most important aspect of a boat, to ME...I live in Hawaii, so once I get the boat delivered in Hawaii that's it, no dealer visits, I am on my own. If I had to send the boat to a real dealer to get it worked on, it would cost about $8,000 round trip, and the transport time alone would be 2 weeks each way.

I am looking at a new boat too, and I really want a well built boat that is not going to have lots of problems. I really like the Malibu VLX, great wake, looks easy to work on the engine, and lots of room. My only concerns with Malibu, which hopefully someone here can address, are:

1. Wrap-around seat construction – it seems like all of the seats are modular, in that they are build from pieces of plastic/fiberglass which are screwed into the floor of the boat to create the frame which the cushions sit on top of. This method, IMO, seems to be weak. I’m used to seeing the wrap-around seating frame being fiberglass which is part of the cap construction, which is obviously solid and not going anywhere.

2. Stainless fittings – I’ve noticed that two of the Malibus in Hawaii (’06 & ’07) are holding up well, but the stainless fittings, rails, etc. are starting to get rusty. My CC has lots of stainless, and none of it is rusty, it's an ’05.

With that being said, I really do like the Malibus I have been on, and am seriously considering getting a VLX. I too need to make a wise decision, as once I get the boat to Hawaii, It’s all on me.

Hawaii, western Kansas, same thing. YEAH RIGHT!
This is exactly the type of discussion/information that should benefit us all!!
The top boats on my list now would be (in no particular oder): Malibu 247, MC X-45, or perhaps a CC if they make one similar in capacity. My use of the boat is not 100% hardcore boarding, but more for all around use and lots of night time floating enjoyment!

Does anyone have FACTS or pics showing how all three of these boats (or any other for that matter) are built and rigged? What does one manufacturer do in the rigging area, for example to distinguish itself from the others?
Again, please refrain from bashing one or the other, but merely presenting a case for one or the other. I would really like to see input from those that have owned at least two different manufacturers

Add the CC 230/236 and the Sanger 237!

Did you check the manufacturers websites for starters???

http://www.sangerboats.com/craftsmanship.html

I just looked at the wakecraft...I see what you like. Some decent looking ideas.
I have looked at websites, keeping in mind they are writing their own ads...prolly not as entirely accurate info as you might get from an owner, but valuable nonetheless

Does anyone have examples (pics or otherwise) of rigging? good or bad, I guess, but I would like to keep it positive.

Please no blister pics on this thread! HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry couldn't resist.

I am bringing this thread back to the top for the simple reason that I am trying to gather as much info as I can about manufacturers processes.

Again, I have both a Mastercraft and a Malibu dealer in my "area" although my area is fairly large.

Dealers for other brands are also relatively close (Tige`, CC, etc.) but I have not been to those locations as of yet.
Having owned 6 different brands of boats in the past, I do realize that they ALL have their issues/problems. However, having gone from more custom made/offshore type boats to assembly line boats has made me question the rigging of these boats in general.

Between Mstercraft, Malibu, and Sanger (if I can find a dealer), which manufacturer has the best overall quality of rigging available and why? My question is primarily directed at the wiring/plumbing end of rigging, as most modern boat companies have adequate structual/drivetrain rigging in place as far as I can tell.

Thanks in advance for opinions/facts.

What kind of problems have you had? These boats are simple enough that anyone with a little experience should be able to quickly diagnose and fix pretty much any rigging type electrical problem. Being that far from any kind of repair facilities, you're probably better off buying a used boat and learning to do all your own maintenance / repairs. In my experience, boats visit the dealer more in their first season than in the next 10 seasons.

Perhaps the point was missed. Thanks trace for the advice, but yes, I do my own repairs. In fact, I had a major issue with fuel vaporization (stalling, loss of power after idling, etc) that I had to diagnose and work with Marine Power to fix. They sent the parts and I fixed it. Simple. The other issues I am having all relate to wiring. TAPS guage doesn't work, misc. lights not working, etc. etc. None of which are earth shattering issues, but annoying nonetheless.
The point is while I have the ABILITY to do these things myself, I would rather have a boat put together with a little more caution and care and spend my valuable (to me at least) time doing other things than fixing someone elses screw ups.
Minor warranty work at a dealer is also not feasable for me so I would like to avoid as many problems as possible.

if you dont want a bunch of sh%t to break dont buy a bunch of sh%t on your boat, get an older boat thats stripped down without a bunch of extra crap on it, 98-01.simple like an old car. any problems should be an easy fix since you sound like you are mechanically inclined.

I understand, but given that I am in the market for a NEW boat, wouldn't a bit of research into quality of rigging AVOID some of the aforementioned problems, or is everyone just convinced that "these things happen" and can't be avoided??

Can't speak on other boats, but my experience with my Sanger V-210:
550 hrs. the boat has NEVER been back to dealer.
I've done all routine maintenence myself, I had to replace the circulating water pump and serpentine belt at about 520 hrs. (And not one gel coat crack.)

It's amazing to me how many of you seem to accept the fact your boats are in and out of the shop so often, would you feel the same way if you spent $50.000 or more on a new car? And boats are much less complex machines. I think these dealers are B-S#ting many of you telling you "all boats have problems" just my $.02

I'd hope there wouldn't be an issue with a Sanger if he buys it in Scott City, KS. What would the closest dealer for Sanger be John? Any idea? I grew up outside of Topeka and know that inboard dealers are few and far between from Kansas City to Denver.

My dad's 1986 mastercraft has 1500 hours and has never been back to the dealer. I have had a 94 ski nautique for 1 year and a X1 for 2 years and I never had any problems with either.

I think most early problems people had should of been addressed during QC and as a last resort, the dealer. Alot (not all)of other problems later in life IMO are related to how people maintain and treat their boat.

Vapor lock is a real PITA, I've been through it with a few boats, and I'd be willing to bet you have a Mercruiser. I thought they had it fixed with in-tank fuel pumps, though.

I have an old, simple boat, and I agree with the comments on complexity and cost. I think several mfrs have grown too big for their britches in the last few years. Boat mfrs are just throwing boats together as fast as their plant will allow, and including features that they don't really know how to execute well. They are then just dealing with the problems under warranty, much like some car mfrs.

IMO - I couldn't really say one brand or another clearly has the best rigging, but there are a couple that I'd put down near the bottom (and Tigé isn't one of them). Most of the higher end brands are pretty equal in terms of construction.

Nick:
I have no clue how far the nearest Sanger dealer would be from here. My guess is Denver or somewhere near lake Powell, but I haven't checked yet.
kevin: I agree about maintenance, but I take care excellent care of my stuff (fanatical is how my wife puts it) and I'm talking about things that have nothing to do with routine maintenance/cleaning.
trace: actually it's a Marine Power 6.0 380hp, and it was as easy to fix as replacing the water pump and re-routing the lines to/from the heat exchanger.
I have to disagree about complexity of the systems on a new boat. I have seen brand new offshore boats equipped with TV's, HUGE sound systems, on board A/C units, nav electronics, etc. etc. taken out and BEAT on and come back time and again with none of the issues mentioned here.
True, those are 500k machines vs 50k, but adequate time and care being invested into the rigging should have very little additional cost added to these boats.
Chris: I agree completely that everyone is being convinced to accept the problems "as part of owning a boat". I guess someone needs to set the bar a bit higher and see what their excuses are then!

Not that you guys care, but the best rigging of all boats is DCB, and I have seen alot of boats in my short life. My neighbor has at 26' Sportdeck, and the detail is unlike anything I have ever seen. Makes wakeboats look like pieces of junk. Here it is anyway.... I guess for 150-175K you get some quality.

I ask him if he wants to ride with us sometimes, "no we're just gonna go pull the kids on a tube today."

slipknot: you correct, DCB is phenomenal. Perhaps that's a bit of my problem in that I just sold my F-29 DCB, and comparing ANY wakeboat to those is not even realistic.
I do know a new F-32 with decent power lists for over 400k, so perhaps you get what you pay for.
I've seen most all the new big rigs, though and although DCB is near the top, you should look at a new MTI or Skater. I'm a DCB fan, but I'm not sure even DCB can compete with them.

I've had the same experience with my Sanger as Chris. 500hrs and the only warranty thing I needed was a skin for a back seat @ 300hrs. I live a looooooong away from the dealer so it has been great for me.

If you like the custom boat feel you should take a look at the MB Sport B52V23, Calabria Pro-v and Sanger V237 IMO.

I was actually referring just to inboard / wakeboat mfrs, who are very recently adding features that they don't really know how to rig properly.

The crazy Rube Goldberg MC gripper style board racks that ran one whole model year are a perfect example. Does anyone still have a functioning pair of those?

Here was my F-29:

Check the rigging on the motors:

NICE! And you went to a 24V after that? You could eat off the floor in there. How fast did you get it up to?

Hey John,
You give me $300k and whatever wakeboat you want. I'll give you back a fast pretty boat with no problems.
Then I'll go grab another for myself and still be able to take the kids out for lunch.

-------thread high jack--------
john where is LOTO? been to wilson many times and cedar bluffs and couple times

Mike, LOTO is what you have to win to afford the boats that John talks about!

John, I have to ask as well, where is LOTO? I'm from Kansas and I've never heard of it.

Lake of the Ozarks.

Shane is correct. Sorry for the abbreviation, but I'm just used to calling it LOTO.
art:If I had an extra 300k lying around, I'd go buy my own go fast w/no problems!!
They all have their problems, but I just wish the wake amchine builders would build them even to HALF the standards of these go fast rigs.
Slipknot: believe it or not, that was the dirtiest the bilge ever got. We ran approximately 100 miles up and down the lake before that pic was taken. The boat would run a max of 125 MPH, but normally we would just cruise at 110-115.

Back to the topic, my thought on rigging is very simple: To me one of the main reasons that wake boats aren't rigged like these is that there is no single manufacturer (that I have seen) taking the time to rig these boats in this fashion and then advertise that fact!
When you get into go fast offshore or sport boats, the rigging has come very much under scrutiny by the consumers of these boats. Even the boats costing WAY less than these pictured here have had to make the attempt to rig their boats on par with the others, or lose market share. Their customers demand quality rigging, and they deliver.
It seems to me that when the general consumer of a wake boat finally gets tired of fixing all the factories broken stuff and use of inferior material, one manufacturer will see an opportunity to capitalize on the other's weaknesses, and not only build a superior boat, but be able to price the boat accordingly. Once other manufacturers will then compete for their piece of the pie and we will all benefit.

Until we all quit accepting that "These things happen to boats" and that "That is why the dealer is so important", and making excuses for their inferior product, I don't see quality changing much.

For what it's worth, when I purchased my DCB, the closest dealer to me was the factory 1200+ miles away. With a product like a DCB, I never needed a dealer, and I would bet that they could count their warranty claims on one hand. When you have a great product, you just don't need hundreds of people across the nation to fix them.

Just my .02

agreed

Well said.

I'd personally rather re-crimp a wire here and there than have to pay an extra $30k for a boat. It's not like we're taking these things offshore, where breakdowns are a safety issue.

for sure ,parts is parts,

What a trip. Last year I was making fun of the DCB boats because from a distance, F29 reads like another term for gay dude. This year I got to watch a few burning by and gained a bit of appreciation, but it wasn't till the week after Labor Day that I got filled in on DCB. This nice dude was checking out my Toyota, then I checked out his Magic, and then we went and checked out the 22-foot DCB with a Viper motor and IO. It was so tight. Here's this Magic guy (which has been my favorite weenis extension boat for some time) saying how Magic's got the look but not the quality of a Hallet or Howard. He said DCB is the top. His example was that like all the slots of the screw heads in the boat are aligned. Must be an exaggeration, but that 22 Viper was so very very very clean. The gelcoat on the thing was beautifully done (even though I still think the Magic designer is the most dialed in of all).

Let me tell you, that V-10 sounded bad a$$ idling through the channel. Still probably 700 rpm like the rest of us, but two more pops per rev makes it sound like the idle's up there a ways.

Our Donzi x-18 could smoke those week azz F-29's any day!

MB Sports. Have had 3 since 1998 and have never had not 1 problem with constuction or rigging or anything else for that matter.

Colin:
Those Donzi's are SWEET!!
I'm sure you've see the new "Shelby" edition 22's...very classy rides.
I had a 35 Cigarette playboy edition (yes, it was the ultimate penis extension!! ), but I reall y didn't want al the attention it drew, so I sold it. I always wanted to a "mini me" version in a 20' cigarette of that boat! Still might someday if I find the right project. It would look very much like your black and white Donzi.

Here is a pic of my old playboy boat (good times in THAT machine at party cove for sure!!):

Sorry:

Back on topic for tow boats.

It is obvious that I have had more of a custom type offshore style boat in the past. In fact My '06 Tige is my first inboard or towboat.
However, I am used to little things that go wrong with boats, and I have the ability to correct them, it's the larger, more major things (spending hours tracing and re-wiring shoddy connections for any of the systems, including sounds), fuel starvation or vapor lock issues due to poor design of cooling, interior issues related to workmanship, etc.) that I just don't
care to deal with if I am not forced to.

I have both a Mastercraft and Malibu dealer relatively close, so if becomjes obvious that there is NO towboat made with care and meticulous rigging, then I will have choose between those.

Thoughts?

not to open a can of worms but in regards to quality in construction-in my opionion having logged endless hours in both-the big "m's"
it's-mastercraft by far...simply look under the gunnels...you will see your self...

If you want a production boat with superior rigging and construction, go with a Cobalt.

I'll throw in a second for the MB's. I too was from a more sport boat / CMY background and after (please no offense intended here) checking out Malibu and the MB's there was no question the MB was built much better and stronger, I ended up getting the MB Tomcat and so far couldn't be happier. True I didn't look at the MC's but from what I'd seen to me they seemed a little over priced for what you got besides the only one I would have been interested in was the X star and since I do go out on the bay a bit (Virginia Beach area) the VERY low nose looked like a disaster waiting to happen, (I had visions of someone yelling up periscope)

Look for these details:

-Engine mounts that are "thru-bolted" to the stringers, not lag-bolted.
-Windshield frames thru-bolted to the deck, not just screwed in place
-tracking fins thru-bolted, count the bolts too.
-All hardware backed with stainless or aluminum plates.

Also, not a rigging issue, but pound your fist along the sides of each boat, look and listen. You can tell which boats a built better than others.

It's good to look at your wiring on any new boat, install cushion clamps where YOU think they may be needed.

Best to visit the factory of the boat brand you want to buy before you but it. Compare to other factories if you can.

Good luck with your choice!

John thats a good lookin cig. We almost got a 38ft older cig but just didnt feel like dealin out the doe, those things can get frickin expensive!

heres bigger pics

that x 18 is awsome...... i had a 1998 sweet 16 that i loved...like driving a porsche on the water...... are you on donzi.net?

Yeah I My pops is, He was really interested in an older sweet 16, he loves the wrap around back seat but its just too small with a family of 5, 2 dogs and friends

i have actually worked in the rigging department at malibu california malibu is the best when it comes to the rigging because of the way they run all they're electrical and plimming through the stringers correct craft does the same thing but i'd say has the win for construction that is one solid built boat. and as far as mc goes they look cool nice wakes JUNK! built.