Yet another ballast thread (opinions welcome)

Well I think my winter project is gonna be to put a built in ballast system in my 205DD. I'll have 2 custom sacks and the rest will be lead weight. I've drawn a P&ID of what I believe I want. Let me know what you think.
My reasoning: I wanted to use 1 pump. I'm thinking of using the boats raw water intake as I won't need to cut holes in the bottom and It's only one 10gpm pump. The overflow vent out the side of the boat will let me know when the sacks are full. Pumping out the side of the boat rather than back into the raw water intake will let me know when the sacks are empty. The valves will be electric solenoid and will work as is worded in picture.

My opinion on the pump is you can use more than one with no problem. My last boat 88 tristar direct drive I had two of the simer pumps running of the fresh water intake with no problems. My current boat a 97 super sport I have 3 pumps runnning of the fresh water intake. I have had it all summer long and can fill while I am driving at 30mph with no problems at all same goes with empty.
If you run two pumps you will know when the bags are empty if you drain back through the fresh water intake because you will here the difference in sound when they are starting to suck air. You have to listen closely but you would have to watch the overfull closely too to make sure you are running it dry.
Bottom line- two pumps=faster fill and drain time=more riding time.

David, how much weight do you run. I just picked up a '98 205 DD. I'll be setting it up this winter. How much weight for the wake in your profile?

i'm also interested in exactly what sacs you chose. i just picked up a 97 205DD and have not picked out exactly what i want yet.
tom

what are the pro's and con's of ballast tanks versus ballast bags? is one better than the other?

that pic in my profile is a V210 not my 205.

I'm currently running one full sack in the back locker and one sack about 3/4 full in between the front seats.
I plan on ordering custom sacks this winter, one for the back to fill it up better than the round sack, and one for the ski locker to fill it up. Then I plan on also adding some lead weight also. This will keep my walkways clear. Right now I'm running a total of about 900 #'s. I estimate with custom sacks and lead I'll have about 1400#'s.

Thanks for the opinion Stan. I think I'm actually gonna run 2 pumps like you suggested. It just makes more sense and eliminating one valve doesn't make it that much more to go with another pump. I have a new flow diagram I'll post monday for anyone else interested.

For anyone thats already done this. What size lines did you run? I'm thinking 3/4" ID tube, is this too big, too small?


(Message edited by detonate69 on October 16, 2005)

what make and model of solenoid valve are you using?

I don't have the exact make and model yet. But I'm thinking of something like an ASCO brand solenoid valve. They are expensive but they work well. I've used them in some projects at work. a 3/4" one is looking to be about $100. luckily I only need 2.

Also this is the new Flow Diagram of how it should work.

i'm curious, do you even need the valves with that set up? i was going to use the same pump set up on mine but was under the impression that the ballast puppy pumps didnt allow backflow when off, thereby eliminating the need for any valves.

It's simply a centrifugal pump which can allow backflow. You may not NEED the valves and it may work without them but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I only want to do this once, and not have to go back in.

what is the best price you've seen on the ballast puppies so far? i found them for $179 but they are completely out of stock on them.

David, I think Tom's right - the Puppy is a reversible vane pump that will not flow water when it's turned off. Therefore, to fill and drain through the same point, you don't need valves at all.

On the other hand...that's like 20 minutes to fill a single Big Bump that a single Rule 1100 can do in five mintues or so.

The Puppy alternative is simple and clean, but using four Rule 1100s and a pair of valves would allow you to move the same amount of water in a quarter of the time and you can even carry a spare cartridge in the boat in case of ballast emergency.

Dont forget to run a relay those puppies pull somthing like 15amps on start up.

Well maybe I'll test them when I get them before buying the valves. Actually It should only take about 8 minutes to fill a 600# sack at 9 GPM; which is about 74.7#/minute. 8.3#/gallon.
Thanks retro of course I'll be running relays. And probably 12 gauge power wire to keep the voltage up.

Tom, use that $179 to price match through West Marine. I printed out a web page on the internet and walked into a store and they matched it, no problem. I'm pretty sure they will price match on their internet orders also. So if you don't live near one, you should be able to order.

http://www.asenashop.com/ivn/9177.html - I bought a few here, they have free shipping and only $179. I used their price to buy another at that price at a local West Marine.

If you buy the Ballast Puppy from a local vendor, check to make sure the switches are in the boxes. In the Delta area, people take the switches and put them in other pump boxes that don't come with a switch. A couple friends have gotten home and had no switches. I have seen a bunch of Ballast Puppies in the Pittsburg, Stockton, and Pleasant Hill West Marines that had the switches swiped.

I got my ballast puppies at west marine with a price match from the internet. At the Palo Alto West Marine the store manager (retard) was taking the switches out of the boxes because he said "they should not be in there". So, I had to go to Saratoga West Marine to buy the pumps with the switches in the box.

I see that...

1) you have a vent per bag

This could be a problem if your sacks are stretchy (like my budda sacks). Stretchy sacks will push the water out the vent when near full. This could reduce the amount of water you can get into the sacks.

2) you are draining out the intake path

This gives you no indication of when the bags are empty. Some folks add a visible exit path to get around this.

Physics Question: if you added another "vent" path on the intake side of the ballast puppies, would the water go out the vent OR the bottom of the boat when the pumps are running in reverse?

i'd say most of the draining water will go out the bottom, but some water may vent due to backpressure. the bigger problem is you would also pull air in the vent when filling. check valves in the right spots would cure both issues.

... or if the engine is running, the draining water will be pulled thru the engine, and would likely vent much less, if at all.

Good point. However, if the pump is below the water line, it would not pull air when filling.

Regarding the drain vent, I think all of the water would drain out the bottom if the pump was running slowly, but when the pump is running fast, some of the water may push out the vent (above the water line). Still, I am not sure. And, yes, check valves could solve this.

Here is my set up; I got most everything from Grainger Including the Teel Pumps (about $65 each) that utilizes a common suction. I used 3-way valves allowing the pumps to run the same direction loading or unloading.

that's a very versatile system, by switching valves around it looks like you can do almost anything, including transfer water from one sack to the other. drawbacks - i bet it's fairly slow, and high component cost.

GD - that would definitely help, but i think you could still draw some air even if the pump was below the waterline. air flows much easier than water, so i don't think it'd take much to pull in bubbles due to head loss between the T to the vent and the intake/outlet.

Okay. Heres what I believe is my final layout. It will do everything I want. With this set up I will know when the bags are full because water will come out the overflow over the side of the boat when they are full. The pressure relief valve will allow the bags to build up some pressure and fully expand. I will know when the bags are empty by pumping out the water over the side of the boat and when no more water is coming out then they are empty. An option I've just thought of is to use the same ports on the side of the boat for venting and emptying to cut down on the number of holes to drill in the boat.




(Message edited by detonate69 on October 18, 2005)

the pressure relief valves will probably be impossible to find in an appropriate pressure range. they really need to be between like 1 and 2 psi. an alternative is locating the vents vertically higher in relation to the sacks - basically does the same thing. play around with vent locations to make sure you can get the sacks as full as you want before drilling.

1 PSI in a 20 by 40" round bag equates to more than a ton of total outward pressure. 4 PSI would give you more than 4 tons. Don't put the bags in an enclosed space and depend on the pressure valve saving your boat -- it'll rip in two and sink.

I saw a picture some years ago of a boat that just this happened to. The factory ballast used bags and a Rule-type pump. The overflow line was partially obstructed and the pressure buildup literally split the boat in two.

Rules rule!

I did already find some valves that are adjustable between 0-25psi. I'll probably try it without them first and see if I can get it to fill all the way without them. I think If I locate the drain correctly and have enough hose I can fill them without the valve.

here's an old similar discussion:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/56263.html

Eustace, that's an impressive installation. You might consider putting a brass shut-off valve instead of the pvc valve next to the thru-hull.

I used a pvc valve when I first installed mine. One day I lowered the boat on the lift and the ballast pump kicked on before the boat was even floating. The pvc cracked at the joint. Could have been bad if I was in the middle of the lake.

I meant to say the "bilge" pump kicked on, not ballast.