what bindings are better ?

I have been wondering what bindings i should get? i have my mind set on either the lf shane ct, lf watson ct, or ronix ones. which bindings do you think is better?

Give me a few minutes. I am beating my head with a bat after reading best bindings and Ronix in the same sentence again.

CWB Zeus's .......all the way...

Ultras!

paul is right right about the ultras if u dont want as hard of falls cuz the ultras release easier than the shanes CWB bindings suck i wuld suggest the shanes tho thast wut i got and they give u so much leverage on ur heelside edge and or comfy and easy to get into

max do you have the o6 shanes or 07 shanes

Max, you don't know what you are talking about. You are right CWB bindings suck because they don't fall apart like LF bindings, curse CWB.

I like being able to put some steez on my grabs/tricks and I ride the CWB Deuce, just got them the other day and they are sick. So flexy but have great hold down.

Colin, any particular reason you want closed toe boots? The heelside leverage thing is myth. Why not Hyperlite closed toes?

i have been looking at closed toes because they help your heelside leverage and because I live in oregon and the water isnt very warm. the closed toe acts as a wetsuit for your foot keeping them warm untouched by wind and cold air. I have been looking for a while for bindings but i have heard a lot of bad problems with hyperlite bindings breaking(BOA, and the footbed)

why do you say the leverage you get from a closed toe bindings a myth

Yes, I would like to hear about why it's a myth as well. I've never ridden closed-toe bindings, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if my toes meet the top of the binding when I'm digging in heelside, the front edge of my board is going to come up quicker than if my toes hit thin air.

This is the same reason why I always liked the old 4-bolt binding hold down system that Neptune used. It would keep the old thin binding plates from flexing, giving the rider more leverage. Thankfully, binding plates are stiffer now and it's not as necessary.

You guys must have some incredibly strong toes. Try it out, put your board on and make sure your toes are sticking out the end. Ok now flex your toes and make your edge raise. Hows it working? Ok now try it with some CT boots, are you getting ANY different reaction? See the thing with digging in heelside is that you aren't raising your toes you are dropping your heels and transferring your weight, edging is done by creating downward force on that edge. Unless of course you have monkey toes capable of grasping.

I can understand the warmth issue, I've tried the Hype version and it was indeed interesting not having any wind on my piggies. Colin, you might want to do a little searching because there have been numerous problems with LF boots ripping off the baseplate etc. and Ronix hasn't been out long enough to know their durability.

I know I sound ultra negative right now but the whole CT thing just cracks me up. And since I have no shame...CWB extended the length of their ultra comfy segmented toe piece so that it comes over your toes more, not completely closed toe but certainly protected and capable of "increased heelside edging".

if its just a myth then why is hyperlite, liquid force and ronix all have closed toe bindings in their lines?

but i will say that i have heard of the base plates ripping off the board before

So they have something they can gimmick to impressionable young kids like yourself. And the cold feet thing. The LF's have problems with the boot ripping off the base plate.

I don't really understand that explanation. It seems like a simple leverage issue. The longer your lever (portion of your foot against the boot top), the more leverage you're going to get. If the boot stops two inches short of the end of your foot, then you just lost two inches of your leverage. I can see somebody making the argument that the difference is negligible, but to say it doesn't exist doesn't seem supported by the the laws of physics.

Even CWB agrees since their description of their longer toe rubber you mentioned says is "gives increased board response."

oh yeah collin harrington shane bonifay danny harf mike ennen and i could go on they all must not know what they are talking about either because they all ride closed toes its just preference sum people like it some dont im not saying open toes are bad im saying i like closed toes and LF fixed the base plate thing in 07

i saw this video with shane tearing it up on his shanes and it sure looked like it gave him more leverage. he was just carving it up

^ I going to take a gamble and say Shane could tear it up on anything, mr closedtoe, but he just prefers to look like a clown when he tears it up...

o yeah i know mr roddyrod shane looks like sucha clown when he rides i mean his switch and regular 9s and his nose presses just are horrible and does danny harf ride like a clown too danny and his clownish 1080s

i think im going to get the shanes

Yeah man, they all pretty much belong in the circus.

Lighten up.

closedtoe,

I sent you a pm.

look man... it's all about feeling... sometimes a bad feeling in your binding makes you ride like crap and often, it doesn't take much to give you a bad feeling about something... I had ultras for years... I just love the way I felt in those... I've tried numerous hyperlite bindings and they always felt wrong... even more with closed toe... and then I put some LF Watsons on... man they felt great... I thought... why not give a try at those shane thing cuz I wanted more flexible bindings and didn't care about the closed toe and the ugly looks... I had a good deal... ordered them and they felt even better than the watsons being more flexible and warmer at cold water temp... the closed toe felt weird on the water at first... I said weird not wrong... I learned to use that weird feeling to perfect my riding... some will like the feeling, some won't... and god, some people even like Hyperlite bindings which I don't understand... but it's all about feelings and opinions... so try them on and you'll see which one do YOU prefer...
you do have to consider reliability though... I'm a bit worried about my 06 shanes but they are still in one piece... yet...

(Message edited by tantrum20 on January 14, 2007)

How does standing on a solid object in your board simulate your board cutting through the water Heavy? Your test is worthless brah.

Fine elevate the board 4 inches off the deck or do it sitting on the swimstep with your feet in the water, please elevate your edge by lifting your toes, brassiere.

"Even CWB agrees since their description of their longer toe rubber you mentioned says is 'gives increased board response.'" <--- One companies response to a market trend.

Puff and pass brah, puff and pass.

First off I would like to point out that there is so much more to edging then what is going on from the ankle down. I think your ankles have almost nothing to do with your heelside edging let alone your toes. Your knees, hips, and leaning away from the boat are far, far more important.

Dave, How much do you know about physics? Now I'm not gonna claim that I'm an expert in the subject but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. I think your main problem is that you are oversimplifying the issue. It is not a simple lever problem for one thing because it involves two "levers" and it is hard to visualize the forces acting on these levers.

Secondly, it seems as though your reasoning surrounds a different type of lever. Your idea that extending the lever would make it automatically easier. Try this little experiment for me. Hold a heavy object in your hand down by your side and lift it up to shoulder height. now bend your elbow in 90 degrees lower the object and lift it in that smae position. it should be much easier yet the lever is shorter.

Now I'm not claiming that this explains why closed toe isnt a real help just trying to show its not as simple as board manufacturers claim it to be. I could give some more examples later of why it doesnt really matter but I'm sure most of what I say falls on deaf ears so I'll stop for now.

I don't claim to be a physics expert, but I do know that your example does not involve a lever. Here is the definition of lever...

a rigid bar that pivots about one point and that is used to move an object at a second point by a force applied at a third

Don't look now, but you've got no fulcrum!

I think if you try to argue that the amount of hold on your toes doesn't affect the control you have over the board, they you'd also have to argue that a device that holds your heel down, such as the Hinge, doesn't affect the control you have over the board either. However, I think it's pretty obvious that that assertion would be false.

has anyone here ever snowboarded???

i use my toes a ton when im snowboarding, i think it could possibly be a huge advantage on a wakeboard..

My toes barely stick out my zeus, so I really dont see the point of the closed toe. I dont think half an inch of toe sticking out is going to give me anymore leverage.

i snowboard a lot and i agree that a closed toe does give you more leverage

Back in 1998-99 Fultilt made the first closed toe binding. It never mentioned anything about leverage,... but it did say "proven new performance"... whatever that means. and it did include "extending your riding season" in the discriptions

As history tells us, the shoe lasted 2 years and then died. was it the lack of response and popularity for the boot... or the whole company in general, since they went out of buisness????
CT (Closed Toe Bindings) are in their second year just like full tilt... Why dont we just watch and observe. maybe it will catch on... or it will be a short lived gimmic, like wakeboard pants... OHH MANN, now that would be HALARIOUS!!!... JUST THINK OF SHANE IN HAMMER PANTS AND CLOWN SHOES... hahahahah that would beat any of murrays get-ups.

I have tried CT in stores but not on a board in the water (this may make a difference.. or not) BUT i do agree that there would be little difference if any, and maybe that little difference is worth it. But bindings like the zeus with an extended toe should be no different than a CT on "response".... unless of course you want to count the little cells on the very tip of the toe on contact at the toe cap end.

1998 Bindings
Full Tilt Sub Rosa XTC



Weight/pair: 6 lbs.
Mfg's Comments: Proven new performance and comfort features has enabled the XTC to be the most talked about binding on the planet. The XTC provides the advanced rider unparalleled customization, support and immediate response.


durability.
Full Tilt Sub Rosa XTC

Weight/pair: N/A
Sizes: S, M, L, XL
MSRP: N/A
Mfg's Comments: Allows you to extend your riding season. The ratchet buckles make it easy to slide into.

I tried the 06 watsons last summer and my problem with closed toe bindings is that my foot slid forward and my toes would jam into the closed toe. Very annoying


I ride hyperlite era's and love how my foot is locked in right past my toes... closed toe bindings cant offer support like that unless you crank the laces so hard they nearly rip out. Plus liquid Force's footpad is so uncomfortable and stiff. Thats just my opinion though.

Yeah, I would think the toe jam would be a disadvantage of closed toe. I'm not that good of a rider, so it doesn't happen very often, but I know I've had my foot slide forward in the binding a few times. I would think that would not have gone over too well with closed toe bindings.

I would also think that by holding down the top of the toes (or the valley just behind the toes) with a tight wrap, you could actually help prevent the foot from sliding forward without having the tips of your toes taking the brunt of the force. Whereas with a closed toe binding, you can't get the top of the binding wrapped as tight to the foot.

Of course, all of this is just theory. I'm going to try out the closed toe Watsons soon, so maybe I'll be able to prove some of my hypotheses.

I think LF is smart by offering their top binding models in both closed and open toe to satisfy both schools of thought.

IMO, any advantage the CT binding would offer would never make a difference in 99.9% of the riders out there. When/If my skill level ever gets to the point where I can land advanced tricks with or without my toes being a major factor, I'll let you guys know...Until then, it's just a matter of personal preference, mine being open toe bindings with Hinge Technology.

Unless the closed toe was actually tight over the top of your toes/foot, I don't see how they could help performance at all.

O dave,
Your shoulder IS the fulcrum. I attached a picture so it's easier for you to understand. the red triangle is the fulcrum and the black line is the rigid bar. I think you may not realize that there is more than one type of lever and you are thinking of a lever with a load on one side of the fulcrum and force applied on the other side.

as you can see your ankle is the same type of lever as your shoulder is in the picture. also I'd like to point out that heel holddown really isn't that much of a benefit on your HEELSIDE edging. You should be pushing down/digging in with your heels so if you feel your heels lifting up your technique is effed up.

everyone is making this way to complicated wen ur heels drop your toes raise and according to the people who agree that closed toes are pointless they say that u dig ur heels in to edge wen dig ur heels in ur toes raise so to say that closed toes have 0% effect on edging is a stupid statement

I have found out that ankle position plays such more into the cut (especially HS) than I had ever previously thought. I can sit back and load up the line all I want, but if my ankles are not locked (as in if my toes are more pointed), then I'm not going to get the load and pop I want. Often when I get sloppy I remember to focus on pulling up my toes on my HS cuts and the pop I get is amazingly different. My body position could be the exact same but pop would differ big time if my ankles were locked at 90 degrees instead of pointing out on HS cuts.

Eubanks has it. It IS about ankle position, but your ankle is not pulling up on your toes it pulls up on your foot. So as long as the bottom of your foot is held firmly to the footbed by overlays/laces/straps etc. it doesnt matter what is going on with your toes. Closed toe is purely for comfort and aesthetics.

Agreed. I am truly surprised that you don't hear more about ankle position when people start trying to jump...especially w2w. For me it didn't come natural to do that (lock my foot upwards) but it makes such a difference in the kind of pop you can get.

The closed to thing doesn't really work as a lever. The place that makes the most difference is the fit of the binding over the top of your foots knuckle. If you're toes were really doing the work they'd be very soar by the end of the day. Edging toeside is a different story. You're toes do all the work in that case, but closed toe boots don't do anything in that case. A quick look at you're bodies anatomy will answer this debate. Toes are made for pushing off, not for lifting. There is no place in nature where a toe is required to lift anything. Those lifting muscles are very un-developed.

If you look at HL's closed toe boots the area over your toes is soft and spacious anyway. You're toes barely touch that area if you lift them all the way up and when they do touch the material just gives. The closed toe boots are definitely a marketing ploy. It was a great idea by someone in marketing. Some companies have done a better job than others. I think LF's boots look like clown boots. The HL's are OK, the Ronix boots are sweet.

Comparing snowboarding to wakeboarding is interesting in that regard. Snow is a hard surface and you are riding a flexible board. Wakeboard boarding you are pushing against surface that gives. Edging technique from snow to water are very different unless you're riding powder. Also you'll never be able to make a wake boot as stiff as a snowboot without risking major injury from edge-diggers. Stiff snowboard boots is what makes them feel responsive, not the fact that they're closed toe.

About warmth.... That's the deal. Closed toe is un-touchable in that regard. If you ride regularly in very cold water, then you're dialed. One thing to keep in mind though is the fact that those closed toer's are going to smell like basketball shoes during the summer if you ride alot. They'll basically stay wet all summer. NASTY!!! The companies are creating as much drainage as possible, but they stiff don't let airflow dry them out.

haha...no doubt. We took this one way too far.

Wakeboarding has come a long way without CT boots. It's cool, but we don't need it.

A Ronix board won't help you land a 1080 and CT boots won't make you ride better.

Not sure I want to beat this lever thing to death, but I don't see how your first image, a third class lever, has anything to do with what we're talking about, which is a first class lever. The rigid bar is the foot/binding unit and the fulcrum is the water surface. On a heelside cut, the portion that is lifting up is the part of the "bar" that's out of the water (toe end of the bindings) and the portion that is pushing down is the part of the "bar" that is under the water. The degree of load you're building is proportional to the angle of the lever (foot/binging unit).

Guess Who has a good point. If the closed toe isn't tight to the foot, then there really isn't any leverage benefit to be gained. For those with closed toe bindings, how tight is the top of the boot to your toes?

Let's see whats wrong with your reasoning. according to your definition a fulcrum is a point, the surface of the water is a plane. Not only is the waters surface not a point but it is also constantly changing and its position in relation to your board/bindings will change. I believe what you are trying to say is that the fulcrum is a point in the middle of your foot( lets say under your arch). Now I'm kinda confused on what force is being applied and what object is being lifted. If the front of the board is being lifted as long as a force is being applied downward on the other side of the fulcrum(heelside of board) the toeside will rise regardless ofyour toes being pinned down or not.

Hey, have you ever had Moose Tracks Ice Creme? I have, and just today I found Moose Tracks ice creme bars at the grocery store.
What a great day.

i still think that the 50 50 bars are the best treat on a hot day

Seems like you're getting kind of agitated, and that's not my intention, but I still want to do my best to get you to understand what I believe are the forces at work here.

Where the water surface meets the board is the fulcrum. Yes, the water surface itself could be considered a plane, but that's not relevant here. We're talking about the part of the water surface that is in contact with the board when cutting. Assuming that half the board is out of the water and half the board is under the water, that would place the fulcrum roughly down the center of the board.

To further illustrate, think of it as taking your wakeboard and doing a 50/50 on a pipe rail. The rail is the fulcrum. You can put downward or upward pressure on your toes or heels to help you balance on the fulcrum. It works the same in the water.

The fact that the fulcrum, where the water meets the board, is changing is also irrelevant to the model. Sometimes the fulcrum will be toward the toeside edge of the board and sometimes it will be toward the heelside edge. It doesn't matter because everything still works the same way. If you want to cut harder on your heelside, you apply downward force to your heel or upward force with the front of your foot. If you want to slow your cut, you apply downward force to the front of your foot or upward force to your heel.

Yes, the downward force of your heel will cause the board to rotate on the fulcrum whether or not there is a force at the other end. But, obviously, if you can combine two forces, one going up on one end and one going down on the other, you will increase the amount of pivot on the fulcrum.

To illustrate, answer this question. If there's a fat kid sitting alone on a see-saw, what is the easiest way to get him off the ground? Lifting from his side, pushing down from the opposite side or lifting up from his side while another person pulls down from the opposite side. Obviously, the last answer will give you the best results and allow you to lift the fattest kid possible.

That makes complete sense to me Dave, and I agree with your theory. CT is going to help leverage some, providing the toes are held down firm.

What I think would be cool would be to make bindings with an overlay that really holds the toes down firmly and then put some kind of Velcro neoprene piece over the toe section. This would give you the full benefit of leverage by having your toes pressed firmly against the binding. Plus, you'd have something to keep the cold out, but it would give way in the rare instance that your toes get shoved out the front. Then when it warms up, you just remove the toe cover and throw it in your glove box!

I don't know why I give these million dollar ideas away for free, but there it is folks. Look for it from the top brands in '08!

Dave W- LF has gone to more specific sizing with their upper-end bindings. The Watsons, Shanes, Transits and Sphynx bindings ALL have seven different sizes instead of the traditional S, M, L, XL that most companies have. Ronix has seven sizes of their One and Cell bindings, as well. The idea is that with more specific sizing you'll get a better and snugger fit, so yes, in theory you will have a tight enough fit to make use of that closed toe. Whether or not it actually helps I guess is the real question, but dont worry because a bunch of people who are sitting in front of their computer who haven't ridden closed toe bindings by LF or Ronix will sort it all out for everyone. Don't you worry!

Oh, and the Ronix bindings evidently have a lining that stops all that toe jam build up.

I'd never go back to open toe bindings after riding closed. Time will tell though on the proving factor. Just watch how many riders switch over. It seems like alot of cwb riders don't like them for some reason. Maybe because thier company can never build a closed toe boot without dissing thierselves and calling thier own boot a clown shoe. lol.

I know this has kind of been beat to death, but when I was interviewing Chad Sharpe and he was talking about how stiff his bindings are, it made me think of something else. Wouldn't it be considered an oxymoron to have flexible boots with closed toes? If you make your boots flexible so that you can do all kinds of pokes and stuff like that, then wouldn't all the extra leverage you get from a closed toe be canceled out by the flexibility at the top of the binding?

Or, maybe you could argue it the other way. Maybe the bindings are so flexible that they have to have closed toes to help compensate and get back some of that leverage!

Just trying to keep the debate going!

you want to keep the debate going??? The more i think about it the less i see a benefit of having close toe boots. as long as your foot is held down you can edge well and get the same response. your toes operate independently of the rest of your foot.

I agree with proho, but I do think the one area they have a legit benefit is with the cold. And looks...

Has anyone had a chance to ride and compare the 3DS and Ronix One bindings?

I rode '05 3ds boots for a while, and '06 3ds boots for a while, and I didn't notice any difference.

My toes never come off the foot bed when I edge heel side. I can't say the same about everyone else. Get on a skateboard and make a left (if you're regular) turn and see what happens when your toes come off the deck.

Colin I would say the best bindings are the ones that feel best on YOUR feet. Demo a lot of bindings before you buy and see what works the best for you!!!Its that simple!!I would get some recommendations on here and then go demo the ones the riders recommended. Just because they feel great to one rider dosen't mean they will feel great to you.

I've been riding CWB for 4 years now. I just switched to the Ronix "ones" and have never felt a better binding than those. Those (my opinion) are on a completely different level than the other bindings out there. Yes, I've tried other bindings out besides CWB and Ronix.

Keith how would you rate the foot bed padding with the Ronix? Because of my knee and ankle injuries I need a little extra shock absorption.

good question!! I was a little worried about the foot bed padding because I always seem to sting my heel on certain landings. Then I'm hurtin for a month with a bruised heel.

The Ronix bindings have a lot more padding and I haven't had any problems since I switched.

I was also worried about my toe jamming in a closed toe type boot. However, I don't even feel any pressure on anything I land.

They are very comfortable (VERY). I didn't have the Ronix "Heater" that you are suppose to use with these bindings. So, I put them in the tub on the hottest water setting for 30 minutes (soaking). Then I put them on for another 30 minutes and walked around the house while my wife laughed at me. They are a complete mold of my foot and have no complaints.

Keith, your heel problem may be a strained arch due to insufficient arch support in your binding. A strained arch hurts at your heel due to the tendons being torn away as your foot flattens on huge landings. I suffered through the same problem for years thinking it was a bruised heel, then finally glued in a $5 Dr. Scholls arch support into my bindings. Last summer, at age 35, was my best and most pain free summer yet. Those arch supports did more for my riding comfort than the dozen or so bindings I had gone through in the previous 10+ years. Good luck with whatever you choose.

I’ve had my Belmonts for 4 years and it’s time to upgrade so I think Friday I’m headed for the Ronix Store. Keith did you get your Ronix the same size as your shoe size?

another good question...

Yes, I got the binding as the same size of my shoe size. I don't believe they have half sizes, so if you wear a 10.5, then obviously round it up to an 11 size boot.

enjoy

Keith, are you high one something!?! Clearly you must be if you think another board company can make even a slightly better or more comfortable product than CWB.

Why just last Tuesday I wore my O'Brien t-shirt and nothing happened but on Wednesday I put on my CWB t-shirt and as soon as I stepped out the door it was like an Axe commercial! Girls were stabbing each other just to have a chance at my CWB hotness.

It seems to have turned into a clown shoe vs. best bindings(CWB) issue. lol

How many people with closed toe boots have had problems with toe jams?

This post is more suited for the geriatric crowd than you youngsters . I purchased a pair of the Ones last week and ended up returning them this week. I’m an old guy and plagued with numerous old injuries. When it comes to wakeboarding I have the most problem with my left ankle and left knee. Arthritis has set in and the impact of landing after jumping the wake can cause a lot of pain. I thought the foot bed cushioning of the Ronix was minimal but probably fine for someone without ankle injuries. For my ridding ability the Ronix snowboard style binding was not flexible enough for me. And lastly getting in and out of the bindings really wasn’t any easier than my Belmont’s. The improvement I did notice for me was my toeside wake to wake but that wasn’t enough of a benefit to deal with the other discomforts. I also had the upper lace pull out of the plastic handle. After talking about the Ronix issues at the Pro Shop we decided the 07 LF Shanes would be a better choice for me. Should get to try the Shanes in the next week or so and if anyone is interested I’ll post how they worked.

Josh B is absolutely correct. CWB Zeus is the best.