Articles
   
       
Pics/Video
       
Wake 101
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WakeWorld Home
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2017, 10:30 AM Reply   
So I am now in the market for a "new" to me boat and trying to stay under $75K new or used. I could be talked into more if it was That much better. *I have heard that the A24 has always been the closest wake in terms of size to the G23. *Curious to hear opinions about the wakeboard wake bang for your buck (I could care less about surfing honestly) . *I am coming from an older 23 LSV and rode a super loaded G21 for the first time last month and have the big wake bug again.*Although the G21 didn't have much transition like the older Malibu 23 LSV's (which I prefer as I am getting older and am more wake to wake now) I like the bu better for the power wedge adjust-ability option. Power Wedge 2 would be ideal but not a necessity.
Old    Alex Yermolenko (alexair)      Join Date: Oct 2008       09-19-2017, 10:46 AM Reply   
Is your skill level close to this? https://youtu.be/DupkCGXnhQU
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2017, 11:01 AM Reply   
better....

seriously though, I am an old school expert rider. All the base inverts , many switch , ect.... All 360 variations (sans switch TSBS 360) and several 540's ect....

But does all that really matter? Are you trying to tell me I can't handle it? That I won't notice the difference?

I rode the G21 and just enjoyed doing big 180's I just want the biggest wake with the biggest transition for under $75K. I used to spend a ton of time on here years ago and would not need to even ask this question but unfortunately don't have as much time to screw around with non essential life activities.

Thanks.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       09-19-2017, 11:02 AM Reply   
The A22 and A24 both are going to get you a big wake. I've owned two A22s now and I would buy again. The new transmissions lets you plane a lot of weight with a small motor on a budget. If you plan to ride 75 feet and over 23 mph, I'd probably get the bigger motor so that you can add even more weight.

The MB TC 22 also gets you a massive wakeboard wake for the money and within your budget. I would do either of these before buying anything used.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2017, 11:32 AM Reply   
Thanks! I didn't think about the MB. What years? Never liked the look of them but I am open!
I was thinking a Malibu 23 LSV or a 247 because I really like the adjust-ability of the power wedge. I would also consider a used SA because the price would be right. I will definitely test ride them but trying narrow it down base on others experience without to much bias.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-19-2017, 11:43 AM Reply   
I will say I have never ridden behind one, but there is another thread in the wakeboard section about how the Supra SA put out a comparable wake to the G23.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=808134



And look at the price of the Supra SA, This 2013 SA worlds edition is 10,000 under your budget!!!!!!!

https://www.onlyinboards.com/2013-Su...see-60761.aspx



I love all things about a G23 but it will be a few years before I could even afford a used G.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2017, 11:53 AM Reply   
Thanks.... Is the hull on the A22 the same as when it was introduced? I rode one years ago right after it first came out and wasn't that impressed with it. What is the transition like on these Axis boats?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-19-2017, 12:41 PM Reply   
Transition is long with a big lip.

The wake on the T22/A22 get massive with weight. Can't speak for the others.

T is a little more rampy than the A, A a little bit more lip. Both will get huge with weight though. T22 with PNP full, wedge down and full crew boots me just as hard as g21 with the same number of people. Its also a lot more consistent of a wake and can do it slower.
I prefer the T to the A but the wakes are very close. You can reproduce the others wake by shifting like 200 lbs front to rear very easily.

Have not ridden a tomcat but have heard good things.
Old    Stephen P (stevo8290)      Join Date: Sep 2008       09-19-2017, 1:02 PM Reply   
Are second Gen Stars not on the menu? I don't think anyone can argue a loaded down star (2004-2011 i think) is enough wake for everyone. I rode a sacked out one this weekend and it was kickin me to the moon.
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       09-19-2017, 1:25 PM Reply   
You may start seeing some 2013 G23's for around that price. I see one on onlyinboards for $79k. I'd be willing to bet he'd take $74,999 for it.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2017, 2:40 PM Reply   
I would definitely be open to it but I am sure it is rough with lots of hours on it. Tough to blow my whole budget on a ragged out boat but if it holds its value it may be worth it.

One other question..... based on what I hear I am leaning toward the T22 but would like the A24 size. Are these wakes sensitive side to side? Is the G23 sensitive to rolling over? That is the other huge benefit of the wedge and part of the reason I have stayed away from Nautique in the past.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-19-2017, 2:43 PM Reply   
G23 is not sensitive
Old    D C (DCross)      Join Date: Jul 2016       09-19-2017, 3:09 PM Reply   
I've got a T23... and love it. The interior size is perfect (it's a 23.5' boat) and it's not as wake sensitive side to side as the G. Side note... based on your dealer, you can probably get a brand new T23 within your budget and with the power wedge

Last edited by DCross; 09-19-2017 at 3:12 PM.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       09-19-2017, 5:40 PM Reply   
The g's are not sensitive to rolling over...but they are a pretty finicky to clean up on both sides...the axis boats produce - as was stated above - a cleaner wake at lower speeds. the axis does this easier and faster with their pumps, as compared to the slow ballast puppy reversible pumps on the g. and i would add that the g's have long transitions and less vertical until weighted OVER stock ballast. out of the box the largest wake for the money is the axis line. the t's are longer transitions and less vertical then the a's. as was stated above you can weight a t to become quite nice.

here is the thing: there is a trade off between bow rise and finicky wake...the g produces the same size wake as axis (t or a) with less bow rise, but you have to weight it over stock, but it has a lot less bow rise...

argue all you want: i have ridden on a24, a22, t23, and own a g21...the one and only reason i don't switch to the axis is the bow rise...many people will tell you that they don't have bow rise on their axis...and it is true they don't, but that is because they have created a bit longer transitions and less vertical with how they weight the boat.

if you want low bow rise, and big wakes that are fairly vertical you gotta have the g. if you are ok with a fair amount of bow rise then go with axis and save the money.

also you gotta know if you like long transitions or more vertical style wake...you can get either with either axis or g...but to get vertical with axis it will create bow rise.

p.s. i think i said the same thing like 4 different ways,,,but it was not me, it was jim beam talking...ha
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-19-2017, 6:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb7 View Post
The g's are not sensitive to rolling over...but they are a pretty finicky to clean up on both sides...the axis boats produce - as was stated above - a cleaner wake at lower speeds. the axis does this easier and faster with their pumps, as compared to the slow ballast puppy reversible pumps on the g. and i would add that the g's have long transitions and less vertical until weighted OVER stock ballast. out of the box the largest wake for the money is the axis line. the t's are longer transitions and less vertical then the a's. as was stated above you can weight a t to become quite nice.

here is the thing: there is a trade off between bow rise and finicky wake...the g produces the same size wake as axis (t or a) with less bow rise, but you have to weight it over stock, but it has a lot less bow rise...

argue all you want: i have ridden on a24, a22, t23, and own a g21...the one and only reason i don't switch to the axis is the bow rise...many people will tell you that they don't have bow rise on their axis...and it is true they don't, but that is because they have created a bit longer transitions and less vertical with how they weight the boat.

if you want low bow rise, and big wakes that are fairly vertical you gotta have the g. if you are ok with a fair amount of bow rise then go with axis and save the money.

also you gotta know if you like long transitions or more vertical style wake...you can get either with either axis or g...but to get vertical with axis it will create bow rise.

p.s. i think i said the same thing like 4 different ways,,,but it was not me, it was jim beam talking...ha
That was awesome....That is the kind of information I was looking for.... Keep drinking!
Old    Lucas Parker (lucas200397)      Join Date: Aug 2013       09-19-2017, 6:35 PM Reply   
2013 MB Tomcat F21 Ballast: 1800# subfloor full, 550# on both sides of motor,400#- 500# estimated in bow bag, 65 gallons of petro/ 400#
Rope: 75'
Speed 23.5-24.0 MPH depending on rider transition changes depending on speed/ rope length.....short and vertical where we normally ride at. All my crew come from a lot of hours behind the O.G SAN so its what we like Dude in pic is 5' 10-5' 11 tall
Attached Images
 
Old    Ian Spencer (Xbigpun66)      Join Date: Aug 2016       09-19-2017, 7:22 PM Reply   
We had a 2004 210 with 4000lb ballast and the wake was huge and rock hard with a steep ramp.
Old    Chris Walker (Spotless)      Join Date: May 2016       09-20-2017, 6:34 AM Reply   
A brand new 18 Moomba Max comes with Auto Wake and 3000 ballast out of the box, swap the bags. Boom. Id pick a new boat over a used one with all the technology today such as auto wake. I guess I'm just sick of my old boat

Last edited by Spotless; 09-20-2017 at 6:43 AM. Reason: funny
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-20-2017, 6:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotless View Post
A brand new 18 Moomba Max comes with Auto Wake and 3000 ballast out of the box, swap the bags. Boom. Id pick a new boat over a used one with all the technology today such as auto wake. I guess I'm just sick of my old boat
TBH you donít need autowake if you have a wedge.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2017, 8:09 AM Reply   
So I will definitely ride behind a friend's G23 & G21 at some point and I will definitely demo the A24 & T23 but what you don't get to do is play with the weight around the boat or sack the crap out of demo boats. So what does an SA or others mentioned do when you keep adding weight how is the transition? etc etc....
Scott, you mentioned that in the Axis boats it changes the transition and vertical pop adding weight to the front, is this dramatic? Isn't that what a wedge does on the fly? BTW, what is auto wake?
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       09-20-2017, 8:45 AM Reply   
The wedge creates about 1,200 lbs of ballast in essence. I think that is the figure they say. It does do this, by pulling down the rear of the boat into the water...This creates a more vertical wake, which is great. But creates more bow rise. Which of course can be offset by adding weight in the front...which takes away from the vertical -ness of the wake...

I love the vertical wake of an axis, but if your gonna ride this way you are gonna lose sight of the water while you plane out. And if you have the z5 bimini you cannot stand up under it.

You can have same vertical wake on a g, but you gotta add weight manually over stock ballast, but you get the vertical wake without the bow rise...but low bow rise, means boat is more finicky side to side for wash out...not terribly so, but pretty bad if windy or a lot of traffic on the lake.

Last edited by scottb7; 09-20-2017 at 8:51 AM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-20-2017, 9:26 AM Reply   
Should also be noted that with power wedge next year the planing off complaint will be mitigated. Or just prop up.


The wedge also reduces the effects of people moving side to side dramatically. Our boat has floating wedge so no adjusting on the fly.

Basically wedge placement in an axis will impact the steepness of the lip. But that's not really the whole story.

If you put weight way up in the bow the tranny gets longer but it will keep the lip, I think this is because you push the V of the hull down more so you kind of maintain but just make the transition longer. If you weight the back more then you start to shorten the transition a but you still keep that lip. Few hundred lbs in our T makes a big difference in terms of transition but that could be due to our ballast set up.

This is why some people go no wedge, its not as much transition as it is the lip on the wake.

If you're going G I say don't even mess with the 21. 23 or nothing. Prop rotation really kills the wake on that boat with just 1-2 people in the boat (flame-suit on). If you dig the bu wake I just can't see you being totally satisified with the 21. Its like a supersized 210 wake.

Last edited by simplej; 09-20-2017 at 9:32 AM.
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       09-20-2017, 10:05 AM Reply   
No worries about being flamed...And a lot of people feel that way, meaning g23, and avoid the g21...but g23 would require manual fill of sacs more often because of extra hull that has to be displaced as compared to the g21. Otherwise it (g23) will be very much more prone to be wash from side to side.

We can ride my g21 without extra sacs being filled. If we want longer transitions we fill all 3 tanks full. If we want bit more vert, we just fill the belly somewhat less. This brings up the bow, but sinks the rear to create more vert. If we want larger of either then we manually fill the sacs I keep in the boat for the rear corners.

Prop rotation is pretty bad, don't get me wrong...But you just add a bit more weight on port side, and then the problem is solved.

I would disagree, also on the comment about if you like the bu wake not being satisfied with g21...Here is why...they are similar...the bu wakes are generally longer transitions with a bit less vert, which is very similar to g boats until you go over stock. The 210 is very vertical but depends on where you put the little handle thing. (I can't remember what they call it.)
Old    C Johnson (YYCBoarder)      Join Date: Apr 2013       09-20-2017, 10:17 AM Reply   
I agree that you get a more vertical wake in the pre-2016 G23 by adding weight but you can also do the same by dropping weight in the front. My favorite setting is about 22mph with approx half ballast up front and about 3/4-7/8 full in the back depending how many people are on board. NCRS is always at 5. There is a great kick right at the top of the wake that feels like you're getting double-bounced on a trampoline. If you don't sink the back of the hull you get a rampy wake all the time.

The hull on the 2016 and newer ones are notched out for NSS in the back which allows the back to sink more and gives it a more vertical wake (more similar to the G21).

I haven't ridden behind an axis but have ridden behind quite a few BU's. I would say that the BUs are a little less sensitive to weight side-to-side but not a huge difference. Both are really good and it just takes moving a body to make it clean.

Last edited by YYCBoarder; 09-20-2017 at 10:21 AM. Reason: grammar
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2017, 10:47 AM Reply   
Can the PW2 be moved into a negative angle while at speed in order to lessen the pull down on the back of the boat? Ie. Say you want 600 lbs of pull down versus 1200 lbs.
I have an old manual wedge and really like it but always wondered why it took them so long to do the negative edge to get out of the hole concept.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-20-2017, 12:13 PM Reply   
yes, pw2 has lift mode.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2017, 12:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
yes, pw2 has lift mode.
I am aware that it has lift mode BUT is that only available when pulling a rider up or can it be put into that mode and adjusted incrementally during a whole set to provide upward lift and not just downward pull on the boat.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-20-2017, 12:35 PM Reply   
AFAIK, yes, you can manually leave it in lift. Pretty sure there's a speed alarm that will go off eventually if you exceed normal wakeboarding speed.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-20-2017, 12:55 PM Reply   
G23 wake with over 2000 extra ballast is that enough vertical pop for you?????
Rider is 5-10" to 6'. It's not me but I took the picture.
Attached Images
 
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       09-20-2017, 1:21 PM Reply   
That definitely has me salivating..... If only I could justify the expense.
Old    Tony (T_A)      Join Date: Feb 2013       09-20-2017, 4:15 PM Reply   
Hey Gene,
Waterski America will let you demo the axis how you want. Ask for Rusty or Todd both really cool guys.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       09-20-2017, 4:51 PM Reply   
Scottb- just curious, but what kind of speeds are you talking about when you say a G has a hard time cleaning up on both sides?? I mean, the OP seems to be a pretty good rider, and is probably not riding at 17-18mph. The G (especially the 23) has absolutely no problem at all putting out a perfectly clean wake on both sides above 20mph, and it is still perfectly clean with full ballast plus 2-3k. The G21 seems to need 21-21.5, and is a bit more vert than the 23. Personally, I like the longer transition that you get with the 23. (I'm old now too)

Is anyone really looking for a wake that huge, but is too scared to ride above 18mph?? I mean, I get it, Bu and axis have clean beginner wakes, but seems a waste of time to bring it up to this OP.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-20-2017, 4:56 PM Reply   
http://www.wakeworld.com/news/featur...ter-23lsv.html
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-20-2017, 6:55 PM Reply   
You still haven't sold that thing Dave??????
Old    Scott (scottb7)      Join Date: Oct 2012       09-20-2017, 6:57 PM Reply   
We ride between 21.5 and 23 mph, at between 65 and 75 feet, usually. I do agree the faster you go the cleaner it would be so you bring up a very important point. Except....I bet he is going to have riders over the years at all skill levels, and ages. So I think it is important to keep it in mind and be pretty transparent about the down side of the g.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       09-20-2017, 6:57 PM Reply   
Negative Ghostrider!

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:17 AM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2016 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us