Build The Wall

Originally Posted by wake77

Yeah, evil John McCain. The guy that has done more for this country than Trump could ever dream. A man that spent years as a POW, while Trump was avoiding service because he had an ingrown toenail. You guys love soldiers/veterans; as long as their allegiance is to Trump. John McCain is an American hero, and will be remembered as so. Trump will be remembered as an unfortunate blip in this country's history.

John McCain is a spineless weasel who has done nothing to serve his actual constituents as of late. The guy has zero backbone and panders for votes just like most weasel politicians.
War Hero or not, he’s a terrible politician .


For all the open borders fans. Give me 5 examples of how closing/ tightening up border security would hurt this country ? Hell I’ll even take 3.


I keep hearing DACA Is a great road . Has anyone looked at the DACA success rates ? Less than 32% of “enrollees “ are considered functionally literate . Less than 40% have gone on to graduate HS and less than 26% have attended a college . 73% of DACA recipients are living in low-income housing and reap welfare benefits plus more from taxpayers. And a whopping 83% are considered unemployable due to their severe lack of skill . The Congressional Budget Office reported that 1 in 5 DACA-eligible illegal aliens would be on food stamps in under a decade.



There was a surge of unaccompanied children that caught the Obama administration off guard in fiscal 2012. The number of unaccompanied minors crossing the border peaked in fiscal 2014 at 68,541, dropping 42 percent to 39,970 in fiscal 2015 before rising again in fiscal year 2016 to 59,692. Why you ask did these minors come ? Gee I wonder if the DACA program had anything to do with it.


No matter how you slice it the key to getting illegals under control is first Completely securing the borders . Til that happens there is no need to even discuss what happens to those already here. Put some severe consequences in place for those attempting to enter illegally in order to deter and slow down the rate . Plenty of countries across the world seal their boarders with armed men . Why don’t we ? It is as simple as that. Regular patrols with the authority to use any means necessary within a “no go zone” on us soil sounds like a great start. Technology , Helos , and plenty of ammo.


And since we have heard the phrase “let’s be honest here, “....................let’s be honest , if these so called illegals were voting 90% republican we sure as hell wouldn’t even be having this discussion .

For all the open borders fans. Give me 5 examples of how closing/ tightening up border security would hurt this country ? Hell I’ll even take 3.

Lets be honest here.
Give me 1 example of ANYONE here that has expressed that they endorse "OPEN BORDERS".
Who are you talking about???

Originally Posted by plhorn

Israels "BIG A$$ WALL" is 37 miles long, 95% of it is a chain link fence, they are at war with the other side and they patrol it. It didn't cost BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WE DON'T HAVE TO BUILD.
Hell you could pick up the Israel "wall" at home depot.
This is in NO way comparable to the incredibly stupid waste of money the US is looking into.
.

So what actually deters people from coming through the fence ? Could it be the notion they will be shot and killed immediately by the numerous armed patrols ?

Originally Posted by 95sn

Lets be honest here.
Give me 1 example of ANYONE here that has expressed that they endorse "OPEN BORDERS".
Who are you talking about???

Well we’ve heard the regulars like Wake , Fly , and, Ralph crying for illegals rights whenwvwr discussing limiting illegals into the country and the fact the illegals have feelings and human rights to a better lifestyle. They’re responses have all been anti- regulations with no offers of a solution , continually making false claims a majority of illegals are hard working people. The facts and numbers simply don’t support that . But they stand by it. That’s pretty much endorsing open borders and the continued flow of illegals is it not ?

Originally Posted by plhorn

DACA was created by Obama and was working fine until Trump rescinded it.

Do you really want to deport a bunch of people that were raised in the US and are gainfully employed and paying taxes to a country they haven't been to since they were 2 years old?

What is your proof DACA is a successful program , because I provided the actual numbers from those enrolled in DACA program and they are a complete failure


The answer is also no we don’t want to be stuck deporting every single illegal in this country. It’s impossible. We all know that . A compromise can be made and those with the proof to support the notion they are successful should be allowed some opportunity to be involved . After all those are precisely the kind of people we want migrating here . However every single illegal in this country getting so much as a penny in government aid should be shipped back . We have enough issues supporting our own legal citezens .

Don’t you think if we thinned the actuall illegal population , we could actually focus more and allow more people legally into the country ?

Originally Posted by xstarrider

Well we’ve heard the regulars like Wake , Fly , and, Ralph crying for illegals rights whenwvwr discussing limiting illegals into the country and the fact the illegals have feelings and human rights to a better lifestyle. They’re responses have all been anti- regulations with no offers of a solution , continually making false claims a majority of illegals are hard working people. The facts and numbers simply don’t support that . But they stand by it. That’s pretty much endorsing open borders and the continued flow of illegals is it not ?

That's interesting. I hear them standing up for illegals but No one is pushing for open borders. The left thinks wasting $$ on an inefficient border wall isn't a good idea. Most are very open to limiting migration by other methods. Even the guy you despise (Obama) deported more illegals than any president except trump. Illegals, just like you and I do have rights and feelings. The majority of illegals are hard working and their arrest numbers are lower than for Americans.
There have been plenty of lefties giving their opinion on how better to control the border.
1.Shore up high intensity areas with physical wall.
2.Hire more Border patrol.
3.Train them better. (They have a lot of issues presently)
4. Better technology, radar, drones, night vision...whatever proves most useful
5. Get employers to use technology to know who is and isn't legal, hold them accountable.
6. Concentrate deportations on those that are breaking the law.
7.Provide a reasonable way for Mexicans to enter and work legally.

Why do liberals put illegal immigrants ahead of their own American citizens and veterans?

Can someone answer this without insulting retorts or deferring the question?

Originally Posted by Cabledog

Why do liberals put illegal immigrants ahead of their own American citizens and veterans?

Can someone answer this without insulting retorts or deferring the question?

Yea, I wanna know too. A day doesn't by where libs on this forum aren't trying to take away help for vets and poor Americans.

Why do republicans believe that someone who comes to America at age 2 because their parents want to work in America and lives their whole life as an American, is not American? The two year old did nothing wrong and did not break the law, but the republicans want to kick them out! It is far worse for a foreigner to book a vacation(in Trump Tower of course) and happen to have a baby while on "vacation" in America, these anchor babies are worse than the young Daca kids.

Originally Posted by Cabledog

Why do liberals put illegal immigrants ahead of their own American citizens and veterans?

Can someone answer this without insulting retorts or deferring the question?

I'd love to discuss this in civil manner but first I need you to clarify the statement. Can you give a couple examples of how they do this.

Do you just mean illegals cost the government money and that money could be used to help the poor or do you mean something else?

Originally Posted by fly135

Yea, I wanna know too. A day doesn't by where libs on this forum aren't trying to take away help for vets and poor Americans.

Can you clarify this?

Originally Posted by Blamey

Can you clarify this?

Fly is being sarcastic. Xstar continually provides (citation-less) made-up facts from facebook memes that have no basis in reality (such as his latest crock of isht that 40+% of SNAP goes to illegal immigrants lol).

Originally Posted by pesos

Fly is being sarcastic. Xstar continually provides (citation-less) made-up facts from facebook memes that have no basis in reality (such as his latest crock of isht that 40+% of SNAP goes to illegal immigrants lol).

You’re just to stupid and blind to read the facts . Feel free to provide the data that disproves the numbers I provided. I’d love to see yours since you claim mine are false .


Hers another fact for you

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...t-2-years.html

Already did in the other thread. It's like you can't even do basic math.

Originally Posted by Blamey

I'd love to discuss this in civil manner but first I need you to clarify the statement. Can you give a couple examples of how they do this.

Do you just mean illegals cost the government money and that money could be used to help the poor or do you mean something else?

I'm trying to understand others positions. From my lense it appears as if allowing some form of amnesty is the most important topic to Dems currently. There are the usual arguments of how much a wall costs vs how much it could save or abiding by current laws vs changing them , etc.

Most people I know are not so divided although in my circles the opinions are split in 2 main categories. First is economically. My friends with more allign towards the right and those with less lean left. Second is of the 2 groups - "the haves" some of the wealthiest lean left in an almost philanthropic manner while the group as a whole leans right. Of the "have less" group the ones who seem more driven to change their economic status are more right leaning with the ones less driven usually by lifestyle choice going left.

Like my groups of friends we all share common interests or we wouldn't be on this site. When we are together most know the others lane choice but it is rarely discussed with the levels of spite and negativity you see here or in the media. What I have found is that other than a couple far leaners on each side most are somewhere in the middle.

If employers were required to verify SS#s and immigrant work visas nationwide with penalties for hiring illegal workers it would probably be far more effective than a wall. But that would cut into profits, so it's best to fake everyone out with a wall.

Originally Posted by fly135

If employers were required to verify SS#s and immigrant work visas nationwide with penalties for hiring illegal workers it would probably be far more effective than a wall. But that would cut into profits, so it's best to fake everyone out with a wall.

The company I work for went to e-verify, background checks and drug screening as part of our pre employement qualification process about six years ago. Prior it was only a one time drug screen. We lost some good people and there were other good people we couldn't hire. What has happened is a culture change. Wages have gone up and although profits were affected initially we have adjusted, found efficiencies, and have an overall higher level of safety, quality and customer satisfaction that has allowed us to grow and recognize economics of scale. Pricing increases over the period have been minimal. Our starting wage before e- verify with no experience for entry level hourly production positions was $9hr. Now it is $16. Top non-supervisory production positions have gone from low $20's to high $30's. This has outpaced mandatory minimum wage laws, federal cost of living adjustment (I recognize COLA is not accurate for metro/ urban ares) and in my opinion has benefited the company by strengthening our work force. We definitely have lower attrition levels and more secure employees. It is my opinion the wage increases would not have happened over mandatory minimum wage adjustments if we still hired illegal immigrants. My team is roughly a 100 employees and we do about 2 to 2.2M per month in gross sales. I oversee the work force and manage the P&L so I feel I have good first hand knowledge of the effects as it relates to our business model.

I don’t think amnesty for all is critical or even necessarily sensible. I do think a path to citizenship for DACA kids who have already met the stringent reqs and proven themselves would be good, however if it was just LPR instead of citizenship that’s fine. I do not think they should be able to bring family members in so perhaps LPR is more sensible in that regard rather than creatOmg some kind of modified/second class citizenship.

Originally Posted by Cabledog

I'm trying to understand others positions. From my lense it appears as if allowing some form of amnesty is the most important topic to Dems currently. There are the usual arguments of how much a wall costs vs how much it could save or abiding by current laws vs changing them , etc.

Most people I know are not so divided although in my circles the opinions are split in 2 main categories. First is economically. My friends with more allign towards the right and those with less lean left. Second is of the 2 groups - "the haves" some of the wealthiest lean left in an almost philanthropic manner while the group as a whole leans right. Of the "have less" group the ones who seem more driven to change their economic status are more right leaning with the ones less driven usually by lifestyle choice going left.

Like my groups of friends we all share common interests or we wouldn't be on this site. When we are together most know the others lane choice but it is rarely discussed with the levels of spite and negativity you see here or in the media. What I have found is that other than a couple far leaners on each side most are somewhere in the middle.

The way you described the demographics of your friends is interesting.

Are your friends collage educated? What's the age group? Red state or blue?

Not how my friends are distributed. I'm in a blue state, mostly collage educated.

As far as the anger goes, this is pretty true across the board. People on the internet don't want to talk they want to argue. No one is here to learn. This thread shows that.

And the news sources most people get are terrible. Most can argue a topic based on a few talking points but really don't have a good.

Case in point, I've been trying to articulate the Dem position on things as it really tough but I do want to try. I want to see if I can make some points that make the decision clear without blaming or belittling any other points.

I'll start with the wall, why are libs so against the wall. But I'll do that in it's own post.

Originally Posted by Blamey

I'll start with the wall, why are libs so against the wall. But I'll do that in it's own post.

I just gave reason three posts up. Symbolically it's pretty bad for the US. If people couldn't get work without proper verified documentation then there wouldn't be much reason to come here. A wall doesn't make coming here less desirable. And it's effectiveness is in question. Punish people who employ undocumented workers and require verification for employment. The employers are off the hook now because they happily accept fake documents and aren't required to verify.

What would it cost the taxpayer to have a mandated system? Probably way less than a wall.

Originally Posted by fly135

I just gave reason three posts up. Symbolically it's pretty bad for the US. If people couldn't get work without proper verified documentation then there wouldn't be much reason to come here. A wall doesn't make coming here less desirable. And it's effectiveness is in question. Punish people who employ undocumented workers and require verification for employment. The employers are off the hook now because they happily accept fake documents and aren't required to verify.

What would it cost the taxpayer to have a mandated system? Probably way less than a wall.

I do agree with the employment verification and give employers better verification tools and holding them accountable but it's a separate issue to the wall itself.

I partially agree with the symbology of the wall. I don't think building border protection itself looks bad but alot of that is with how Trump's sold the wall and really that is what's created such a push back to the idea.

Secondly is the lack of a plan or attempt to sell the value in the wall. Even Trump has been saying that the wall doesn't need to be along the entire boarder. Some type of feasibility review would be great.

Thirdly I think many people don't see illegals as a problem. The real cost of illegal immigration is hard to estimate which is why you get very different numbers. For many people they have family or friends who are illegals and they are sympathetic to these people.

Knowing what's already in place for border security, I feel like the wall is just a political talking point.

So if you want to sell me on the wall I need to know how much immigration it will stop and how much it will stop.


So these are my points, ask we questions and I can go into details but please keep it civil.

"I do agree with the employment verification and give employers better verification tools and holding them accountable but it's a separate issue to the wall itself."

It's not a separate issue IMO. Both are a proposed solution to the same problem. It's a question of which is more effective both in practice and cost. One might argue that they aren't mutually exclusive, but that does not address the question of which is better and should be given priority.

Originally Posted by pesos

Already did in the other thread. It's like you can't even do basic math.

And Grant spells like a first grader. There seems to be a common link between the resident Trump supporters of this board.

Originally Posted by wake77

And Grant spells like a first grader. There seems to be a common link between the resident Trump supporters of this board.

Hey man,

Let's leave bad spelling out of it. There are bad spellers in both sides.

Originally Posted by xstarrider

John McCain is a spineless weasel who has done nothing to serve his actual constituents as of late. The guy has zero backbone and panders for votes just like most weasel politicians.
War Hero or not, he’s a terrible politician .


For all the open borders fans. Give me 5 examples of how closing/ tightening up border security would hurt this country ? Hell I’ll even take 3.


I keep hearing DACA Is a great road . Has anyone looked at the DACA success rates ? Less than 32% of “enrollees “ are considered functionally literate . Less than 40% have gone on to graduate HS and less than 26% have attended a college . 73% of DACA recipients are living in low-income housing and reap welfare benefits plus more from taxpayers. And a whopping 83% are considered unemployable due to their severe lack of skill . The Congressional Budget Office reported that 1 in 5 DACA-eligible illegal aliens would be on food stamps in under a decade.



There was a surge of unaccompanied children that caught the Obama administration off guard in fiscal 2012. The number of unaccompanied minors crossing the border peaked in fiscal 2014 at 68,541, dropping 42 percent to 39,970 in fiscal 2015 before rising again in fiscal year 2016 to 59,692. Why you ask did these minors come ? Gee I wonder if the DACA program had anything to do with it.


No matter how you slice it the key to getting illegals under control is first Completely securing the borders . Til that happens there is no need to even discuss what happens to those already here. Put some severe consequences in place for those attempting to enter illegally in order to deter and slow down the rate . Plenty of countries across the world seal their boarders with armed men . Why don’t we ? It is as simple as that. Regular patrols with the authority to use any means necessary within a “no go zone” on us soil sounds like a great start. Technology , Helos , and plenty of ammo.


And since we have heard the phrase “let’s be honest here, “....................let’s be honest , if these so called illegals were voting 90% republican we sure as hell wouldn’t even be having this discussion .

Piss off. No one cares what you think. McCain will die and millions of people will mourn his death. You will die and no one will notice.

"Spineless weasel". You are a POS.

^^^ wake please return to your “safe space” you seem to be having a melt down

Originally Posted by grant_west

^^^ wake please return to your “safe space” you seem to be having a melt down

Yeah I also think wake needs to ask Wes which meds he took last year when he had his breakdowns. Maybe wake just needs a few Tide pods to get himself on the right track. LOL

Originally Posted by Blamey

... but please keep it civil.

Are you new to wakeworld?

Originally Posted by markj

Yeah I also think wake needs to ask Wes which meds he took last year when he had his breakdowns. Maybe wake just needs a few Tide pods to get himself on the right track. LOL

Damn, are you and G dating xstarswatguy now? He's a grown man, he doesn't need you two taking up for him. He can handle himself.

Originally Posted by grant_west

^^^ wake please return to your “safe space” you seem to be having a melt down

Coming from the guy that had the Dr. Phil meltdown and proclaimed he wasn't going to post anymore in political conversations? That's rich.

Wake: your right, it’s a Guilty pleasure of my’n. I absolutely love to come in here and kick the whiny libtards like yourself. Marks picture of you in your Navy uniform was about the funniest thing Becides the WakeWorld poster of shame I have seen here on W/W. Honestly making fun of demondRats is like watching a dumpster fire! LOL MAGA

This.

LoL

That meme is bang on, Trump shares all sorts or hypocrisy and perversion with the clergy.