Skylon Speakers- Deafcon material?

Hey guys- new to this whole wakeboard thing and I've been looking for some speakers for my tower and I thought this would be a good place to get some answers from real wakeboarders-

My question is about the deafcon series from Skylon (probably the II references) #1 how do they sound for the money? #2- is there any benefit to going to the carbon fiber over the "Ultra-Light composite" design #3- What is this Ultra light composite?- Is it just a fancy term for plastic? #4- any good places to get these over the net?

I know thats a lot of questions- maybe someone out there can answer them all... Thanks

the carbon fibre looks like it is plastic wrap... call wakeside, they will know for sure..

1. The Deafcon II Reference uses Image Dynamics Chameleon 6.5" components. IMO they will sound better than any other 6.5" tower speakers out there. They handle 150 watts RMS continuous per side all day long (most speakers would fry. If you had a very high end amp (like Tru Technologies and PPI), you can push between 200-250 watts per side.

2. Carbon Fiber is a finish option, not true carbon fiber. Looks cool. The other option is gloss black.

3. All Deafcon's are ultra light composit for 2005. Skylon did this to reduce the weight of the enclosures and improve the dampening aspects. It is a special plastic material that is designed for sound quality and strength.

4. Wakeside.com is one source on the net. We can answer any questions you have.

Mike

I'm glad I read through this thread. Plastic enclosures? Nah...not a plastic fan. This just helped me decide to go with the NVS Addictions vs Deafcon IV. Many thanks for the post.

(Message edited by bigthunder on April 08, 2005)

The reason for the composit enclosures is to reduce the weight at the top of the wakeboard tower. The Deafcon IV's weigh 32 pounds for a pair. The NVS Addictions are probably over 60 pounds (we need to ask Duane at NVS).

That may not be an issue on the Illusion X tower or the Titan Series I or II, but most towers will move a lot in rough water.

Skylon solved the problem.

Harald,

I'm curious as to why plastic would be an issue for the tower speakers. Plastic would seem to be plenty strong for that application - most likely as strong or stronger than fiberglass, which is what the entire boat is made of.

Perhaps I'm making too big a deal out of the plastic, but in general I have found plastic to be unforgiving. 1. acid rain or blemish...difficult if not impossible to remove. 2. Will it withstand getting popped taking a wakeboard on and off rack position? 3. If I need to replace internal components and accidentally strip threads on the can, I can rethread metal...much harder to do with plastic. 4. Acoustically? not sure. I'm sure the Skylon's will serve well, but for me, it seems the N.V.S. setup is made using the highest quality components built to last for the long term. Not certain what to make of the excess weight issue on the tower, simply haven't experienced owning heavy tower speakers. I have a pair of Mastercraft stock cans. Curious to hear what others have to say.

The skylon material is a composite plastic and the carbon fiber is only a skin that is for looks only the speaker housing is still plastic. When I think of a composite speaker housing it reminds me of the loud liquid composite boxes. I think that you get what you pay for and if you pay high dollar for a good sound I would rather have a metal enclosure for the best acoustics. I have been looking in to all this pro audio and different enclosures as well and talked to a high end stereo rep at one of my friend's stereo shops. I will post next what he responded to me about enclosures, marine audio, pro audio etc.,.

This was a manufactures rep response to enclosures and audio questions:

"The requirements for a good speaker enclosure, for any application, is first that it be rigid and as dense as possible. Any flex in an enclosure will cause the low frequency and mid-bass response to suffer. As for a cylinder verses a cone shape enclosure, a cylinder will have more internal air volume for a given equal diameter and length. In the case of marine speakers the tower locations they are mounted in restricts the physical size of the enclosure to a size that is not too obtrusive, making internal enclosure air volume at a premium. Proper enclosure fill and damping will also enhance the sound quality of any enclosure material. Marine applications dictate that a sealed enclosure is best to prevent water and moisture damage to the speakers. MDF is a porous material that would require additional sealing to make it worthy of this application if at all. It also has the disadvantage of weight over may of the other materials. Home and autosound favor MDF due to the density of this material and to minimize the bracing normally required for large speaker systems, but they are not subject to water and moisture. Fiberglass can be a good choice for weight and strength, but it will take a lot of buildup to be equal to the metal cylinder version when you compare strength, weight and minimum deflection. A cylinder enclosure is a good choice for this application and will also help to minimize baffle refraction when kept in scale with the speaker diameter. For safety and durability, the metal enclosures with brackets professionally welded in place would be the best choice for tower mounted speakers.

Each speaker has its own required parameters to mate with a specific style of enclosure and necessary air volume. A speaker designed to work in a vented enclosure will not produce the best quality sound if used in a sealed enclosure. A speaker designed for a sealed enclosure will not produce acceptable results and may even be damaged if used in a vented enclosure at high volume. A vented enclosure will allow moisture to get inside and will eventually damage the plated components of the speaker and many times suspension components. The enclosure volume, and even the actual size and shape can contour the speaker output by creating peaks and dips due to improper speaker to enclosure match, the speaker’s "Q" will determine this. At times this can be an advantage if a frequency band needs to be brought up that the speaker can not correctly reproduce on its own. Sometimes the enclosure volume can be tailored to gain this frequency area.

A speakers sensitivity rating is what will allow a speaker to play louder for a given input power. The power handling may be lower in a high sensitivity speaker due to tight voice coil gaps that have high gauss factors and only allow light gauge wire to be used for the voice coil, in turn lowering the input wattage rating. The up side of this is that less input power from the amplifier will be required to get to a reference SPL level of loudness with a high sensitivity speaker.

Power handling can be increased when using high sensitivity speakers by using multiple (common) speakers to divide the input power. This also results in a + 3db increase of SPL each time the speakers double. ( 2, 4, 8 speakers etc.) Impedance can be kept in check by a series / parallel connection of the total speaker sum. Even lower sensitivity speakers can increase in SPL and power handling with multiple speakers. This configuration would make a loud, low distortion, easily driven system.

Low frequency is harder to reproduce in an open environment like marine applications because unlike a car or home there are few boundaries for "cabin gain" to happen. Loudness gain in the low frequency spectrum is then largely related to power input and cone size for air movement. Horn load enclosures will help but they can get large. Subwoofers and woofers require very rigid enclosures especially if a sealed design is selected, or else frequency response and SPL can be lost due to enclosure flex

High frequency horns using compression drivers can be used to deliver a larger pattern in this bandwidth, they are a bit costly for the better quality horns. Some versions may not be suitable for marine applications due to diaphragm designs that will not be moisture friendly. Most compression drivers are very high sensitivity, low power handling and usually do not have the smoothest frequency response without additional correction at the crossover network level, but they can get loud with very little input power.

Like everything, using high quality components to start with will make your system far superior and less likely to fail you when you want to use it most."

After reading this I can see why a metal enclosure is the way to go. Hope this helps everybody.

uhmmm....metal enclosure are a desireable in some cases... all depends on the the application...

in the case of a tube (interesting design), metal isnt nesscary. all that is needed is a semi rigid enclosure.. due to the design, a tube is pretty efficent at dispersing energy ( a box is pretty bad)..

what the big downside to a tube is the efficency.. a tube needs boundries (front, side, back) to operate efficently. this is the MAJOR downfall with current tower tube designs...

Maybe Duane with NVS will read this thread and post his 2 cents on why he uses metal cases vs. plastic composite. I haven't purchased either one and would like to know the pros/cons in making the decision. Mikeski you out there, Grant...lets hear from the "audio dudes".

Tim,

I disagree with your last sentence. The quote from the manufacturer's rep does not prove that a metal enclosure is the way to go.

The Skylon composit enclosures are very thick walled, extremely rigid, and sound great. I have a set of Deafcon V Reference on my own boat and we are pumping about 600-700 watts to them at 2 ohms. The mid-bass is strong all the way down to 100 Hz. That is the best that I have heard so far. Most tower systems will only go down to about 200-300 Hz.

If you keep investigating and listen to the Deafcon IV or V Reference I think you may change your mind.

Wakeside...
Is there anywhere in the Atlanta area to see/demo the Deafcon speakers. I tried Ambush, but the speakers are drop shipped from Skylon. Quite difficult to make a decision without touching/feeling/hearing.

Wakeside,

What about the other points that the rep brought up about moisture and sealed concerns? Do you think this is a problem with the Skylon or NVS systems? Is the pro-audio horns and drivers adapted for marine use or is there a achance of moisture damaging them?

I would like to know before this type of investment.

Composit will always be better with moisture than any metal. Both the Skylon and NVS Entity are sealed enclosures.

A bigger concern in a marine environment is the cone material. The Skylon's are all poly cones specifically designed by Image Dynamics for a marine environment. I believe that the NVS Entities have a paper cone that is treated.

I live in Oregon so I wouldn't be able to use a paper based cone on my boat.

Harald,

You may try calling Skylon to see if there are any boat dealerships in Atlanta that stock the Deafcons if you want to see and hear them first.

We stock them here and have a set of the V's on our own demo boat but that won't help you there.

Call Skylon at 1-800-418-1616

Thanks for everybody's input- I think I may hold off on the composite material until it has been proven- the point about the cans being hit by boards, acid rain etc...

Keep in mind that the composit is very thick but light weight. You probably couldn't break a Skylon enclosure with a baseball bat.

How has the Acid Rain effected your seats, dash, steering wheel, shifter knob, dash switches, glove box, boat hull, etc? I never heard this one.

i think the major drawback to the defcons is the efficency..

dont know what the specs are but it appears to be very, very, very low and very low impedence
(low impedence + low effiecnecy = bad combination)

OK I'll bite and give my 0.02

First off, I don't think I would leave any boat/tower speakers out in a situation that they could ever be exposed to acid rain, heavy rain of any type will do more damage to the drivers then the enclosures. Screamin sacs or other covers could/should eliminate these concerns.

My personal opinion is that plastic is a fine material for speaker enclosures. I feel the acoustic and structural properties of a UV stabilized plastic enclosure are actually superior most metal enclosures. How many metal enclosures do you see on home speakers or concert stacks? With tower speakers the front plate is providing all of the structural support for the drivers, the bucket on the back just protects the speaker and traps the sound wave coming off the back of the speaker cone from cancelling with the sound wave coming off the front of the cone.

If I had access to manufacturing equipment and I could produce a speaker system to my personal design they would most likely have rotomolded plastic backs (plastic similar to the loud liquid tower boxes, Electrovoice and JBL stage speakers). This type of plastic is pretty dead from an acoustics standpoint so it would not require dynamat or tar insulation. The front mounting/support structure would be anodized aluminum and they would have quick disconnects. It is amazing to me that almost nobody offers a good quick disconnect system, I see this as an essential element of the mounting system.

I had discussed this approach with Duane several months ago and he explained that it would not have the bling that this industry demands. I believe he is right, it's shown to be true looking at all the chrome accessories that we put on our towers. So, I am probably in the minority in this forum wanting something that is more practical from a functional standpoint.

There are lot's of varieties when the word plastic or composite is used. Anyhting from a soda bottle all the way to a space shuttle insulating panel fit into this category. A properly chosen plastic can definately meet the requirements for a speaker back. I think that Skylon has made a very wise and well thought out choice in using a carbon fiber wrap instead of using real carbon fiber. Carbon is way too brittle to make a good speaker enclosure from a structural or acoustics standpoint.

Harold, there is my opinion as you requested...

Mikeski

Harald,

Thanks for your thoughts, I hope we haven't hijacked the thread from Thomas.

Mikeski,

I would see a quick disconnect as a huge advantage, and am eager to see Monster's version coming on soon. My route to the lake takes me over some terribly paved roads at 50 MPH, so I worry a little about putting 70 pounds up there swaying with the trailer. A lot of force can be generated. It would be nice to just to pop them off and rest them in the vehicle.

You hear all of this talk about special composite enclosures for the ultimate sound quality. Fact is, aluminum prices have skyrocketed so manufacturers seek other materials and a way of keeping their costs down. They talk about weight, but if the tower can't handle 30-60lb speaker cans, your ass is going to be left in the wake. Call it what you want, put it is PVC with car audio speakers. Just remember, you get what you pay for.

We don't use metal wakeboards, snowboards, surfboards. Our boats don't have a metal hull.

Aluminum does't always mean it's better. For some applications, yes. I like the way that Titan decreased their aluminum wall thickness on their Alpha I and II Series speakers. They also got the weight down. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I know from experience that 70 pounds of tower speakers on a tower combined with 4-8 wakeboards and bindings will make 90% of the towers out there really sway a lot. Shaving 40 pounds off of the tower speakers can make a big difference.

Some like the look of polished aluminum or chrome and I totally understand that. Skylon doesn't offer that this year. Next year they will most likely add a chrome composit version. Have you seen a chrome composit skateboard or motorcycle helmet? They look like chrome on metal.

The Deafcon IV and V Reference do not use car audio speakers. They use Pro Audio components.

believe me, i understand the whole manufacturing process and that's not my point only my opinion. the problem isn't with the product, only with the representation which unfortunately doesn't follow the change in the manufacturing process or the price. if the truth be known, you can purchase a a pair of aluminum 8" cans with custom mounts for $180 plus shipping from precision metals. add the $50 -$60 for the speakers on ebay and you have a pair of deafcons without the name

sorry. forgot to address the audio speakers used. the deafcon IV and V are car audio speakers. high end speakers but car speakers non the less.

Actually Randy you have wrong information.

The Deafcon IV and V are not car audio speakers. I was involved in the design process with Image Dynamics. I have addressed this in other posts.

The owner of ID did Pro Audio for many years before he got involved in car audio. He applied many Pro Audio technologies into cars including HLCD (horns). When he designed the marine application for Skylon, he applied his pro audio experience to the open air tower environment. Both the 8 inch mid-bass drivers and the HLCD are different than all of their car audio.

I was able to listen to the Deafcon Vs today and must say that they sounded very good and they are also a little more eye appealing than the NVS setup. Also if you want the speakers, IV or Vs, you had better order them now if you want them by seasons start. I ordered the speakers through my dealer 3 weeks ago and was told that they will not ship for 2-3 more weeks if not longer. As of 12 o'clock today Wakeside had one Deafcon IV in the carbon fiber finish left. Because of this I am going to be an NVS customer come Monday or Tuesday. I personally do not want to wait that extra amount of time 6-8 weeks from order date to get a set of speakers.

Chris,

You are totally correct. Skylon is now on backorder and Wakeside sold their last two Deafcon IV and V today. We sold our entire stock order out in less than 4 weeks (it was supposed to last a couple months. We have reordered but don't expect shipment for 4 weeks. I expect the stock situation will clear up by April 10-15.

Anyone that wants high-end before April 10 will need to go with NVS. Do you know the NVS stock situation? Do they ship same day or is there a lead time with NVS too?

Mike

If Skylon would have told us that our order would have shipped within the week I would not have had it cancelled. The told us that they would ship at the end of the month at the earliest. If I could have the speakers in two weeks I would order them through you on Monday. I really wanted to run the Skylons after hearing them today but I was just a little disappointed with the news that I was told. Also what are the reasons that the Vs will not fit on a Titan Series III? Are they too wide, or is there any way to make it fit?

I believe that Duane had to buy a significant quantity of speakers to get his new design specially made for his Addiction series speakers and would assume that he has a fair amount of stock on hand but Duane will probably chime in here. From what I have seen NVS has not had much issue delivering.

Chris,

My bad. I meant May 10-15.

Wow, I just got in and see that much has been covered already.
Good stuff on the enclosure material/design. I don't think I could add much except to expand on the idea that every speaker has different NEEDS and are compounded by the different APPLICATION that the speaker is to be used in.
To say that a given speaker will work best in a specific material without considering the design and application is like saying a specific woman is best in the eyes of all men.
If we look for a single magic formulae to solve our quest for the best, then we should all start by getting the same ears....which of course we can't have.
One mis-statement I'd like to correct from above is the weight of the Addiction. How did 23 lbs get to 60 lbs? That's not even close!(maybe the 54 oz magnet was converted to 54 lbs)
I think the new Skylon stuff is great. As Mike has admitted though, it is designed to achieve a different objective then that of NVS. Even during early discussions, it was clear the me that Mike values the "Near boat" sound quality more then I do. I have pursued sound quality "For the Rider" while relying on cabin speakers for "Near Boat" sound.
As was even mentioned above in "manufactures rep response" the lower freqs are very difficult to obtain in an open air environment. Even worse is to try and project them. I found this relationship to be notable when comparing the Entity 808 to the Entity 1010. Both are similarly loud, but the larger cone of the 1010 does indeed project the lower freqs much better. This is a phenomenon simply known as "Beaming" and goes further to state that smaller cones that may even produce lower freqs up close, simply run out of gas within 40-50 feet.
So, here again we see "Aplication" a key factor in choosing speaker characteristics, enclosure material, enclosure parameters, frequency constraints, power, and on and on.
It's fun to debate "what's the best" but just like the "Best Boat" wars we all have seen, sound and therefore speakers are very personal.
As I have professed from the beginning, try the stuff you are consdering "In The Environment" you intend to use it in, then decide.
Lastly Quick Disconnects: I'd love to have some too. In fact, if YOU have a design and want to share it with me to manufacture, I'll make it worth your while.
The issue is not only aesthetics, its safety along with ease of use.
I'm done, nighty night.
D out

Sorry wakeside.com. I retract my last post about the car audio speakers. It's amazing how much mis-information is out there. My bad.

Very good points Duane.

To clarify my point above, I was referring to the Enitity 1010 weight which I believe is between 60 and 70 pounds for a pair. A pair of the Addictions is 46 pounds if I understand your post.

Your design goal was entirely for the rider, but the Deafcon IV and V Reference design goal was to have plenty for the rider (not as much as the Entity 1010) and great sound at the boat.

There is not one best tower speaker system, just like there is not one best car. There are way too many factors that effect a buyer's decision. A huge one is availability, and Skylon is backordered for 4 weeks. These forums simply help the potential buyer to understand the various factors.

It looks like boat audio will be a fun topic for the next few years and the whole industry will benefit. I appreciate all you have done to get things moving in the right direction.

Mike

i think a 3rd manufacture needs to step in....

take the lightweight skylon enclosures and the ev speakers of the nvs....

Mike,

Also well put...thanks for the correction.

Clubmyke, don't think for a minute I'm not already on that!
However, one must realize though that efficiency and projection does come at a cost. It's more the weight of the speaker then it is the weight of the enclosure.
If you look at the Skylon and NVS assembly, you will see a common design element. We call it the Faceplate but it is the main structural point of the assembly. This is what the speaker is attached to. The can is of no strutural significance and I would bet that the two cans are very simillar in weight.
D out

Hey Duane, give the guys at Marine Max a call and ask them why the NVS they have on display at the Santa Rosa boat show has too huge dents in the back.

JP,
Thanks for the heads up. They mentioned a chip'd grill but no mention of can damage. ups monkey stikes again.
D out

Duane...
Do you have a distribution program setup with MarineMax nationwide?

I was trying to do more research on these "Horn" systems and found this link that you may want to look at.

http://bierbower.net/diytower/HLCD.htm

I guess my main concern is that these systems mya project out to the rider but how is the sound for everyone as well as the sound quality. I did hear the NVS at the pleasnton show and they were loud and but definitely had a unique sound to them. I am afraid of losing the full range or sound and my stereo sounding like I have hooked a speaker to a bull horn to project it out to the rider. Loud to me does not always mean best sound quality.

Personally, I care more about sound quality at the back of the boat than I do at 80' because that is how we use our boat. I know others care much more about the rider experience. Our design goal was clear: we wanted quality clean sound near the boat, great low-end bass in the open air environment, and good volume for the rider. That meant giving up some volume for the rider in exchange for great sound at the back of the boat. Every design will be optimized for one main thing. The NVS HLCD system was designed for SPL and efficiency and they definitely achieved that. It is possible to design a HLCD system so that the horns don't overpower the mid-bass and retain a fairly flat full-range and quality sound.

A year ago I wouldn't have thought that was possible.

spl & efficency is not a bad thing...it is very important in a marine environment. considering there is 3 volume zones ( sub, inside the boat, outside the boat).

in regards to sound quality A LOT has to do with the source (cd or mp3 and the digital to analog processor invloved - this is a VERY BIG deal since there has been "quantam" leaps in quality over the last 1-2 years), pre-amp quality (head unit), amps, and cabling...

clubmyke,

I agree regarding sound quality having a lot to do with the source, head, amps, subs, power, cabling, etc. I just value the sound quality more than pure SPL. Car audio competitions are now broken down into SPL and Sound Quality categories. I would compete in the Sound Quality category if I were into competition. I still value efficiency in a marine environment, I just don't need the highest SPL at 80' - I want the best sound quality.

Four 8" Image Dynamics mid-bass drivers and two HLCD horns with roughly 700 watts RMS puts out plenty of SPL for me.

Here is a link to our ride with some of our audio details. We will be updating the audio section this week since the latest images are not in yet.

http://www.wakesiderides.com/rides/index.php?page=out&id=118

I just took a few weights as this thread got my curiosity raging. These weights are for our new bullet speakers.

Tower Clamp, Bridge, Quick Release and H/W - 1.8 lbs
Chrome plated bullet cans - 1.82 lb
So unloaded roughly 5.5 lbs each.

Tantrum Reference Drivers with External X-over - 1.87 lbs
Polk DB675 Drivers - 1.62 lbs
So loaded with Trantrums about 13 lbs/side or 26 lbs per pair (four cans and drivers).

Kicker KB600's are almost 23 lbs per pair

Last years Defcon II's are about 20 lb/pair

Pro Audio changes a lot, the audio components are much heavier. The 8" mid-bass we plan on using with the HLCD is 7.8 lbs and the mid-bass alone is 6.9. Two of each and your at 30 lbs just on the audio pieces.

I have no idea what all this means, just facts I had available to me, which could be wrong

Monster Tower...
When do you anticipate releasing the HLCD product? Do you have a prototype for sampling at your Alpharetta location?

Like 10-12 weeks to be realistic for shipping the pro products, been burried getting the new light bar, racks and bullet speakers going. Maybe a few weeks sooner since we have all the detail stuff worked out now. I'd guess 6 weeks and we'll have a production prototype based our tooling schedule. This is "best educated guess" as Murphy can always make life fun.

Also, our doors are always open to fellow wakeboarders, unless they are solicitors . Calendars and stickers are free for the taking for visitors, plus you can watch Breanne bending tube and Kaylee Tig welding in bikinis in the back!

Are the bullet cans going to be sold empty? I sent you an email asking but I figured I would ask here as well. If so do you know what kind of price we are looking at?

Many speakers will not fit in our cans, many will with modifications to the can, many will bolt right up.

There are no firm standards to design to with speakers, except we know we can always buy them on eBay cheaper than bulk orders direct from the company???

We also know the Tantrum's and DB675's have a great physical and acoustical match to the cans.

Never say never but until we get the new products rolling smooth, there are no plans to provide unloaded cans.

diyTower.com has lots of resources and I love to support fellow diy'ers any way I can.

mike(wakeside),

it would appear that tower speakers are still a "work in progress"..

there are strengths of each design(nvs and skylon)- though i havent heard the nvs yet ( waiting to go out on big eds boat..)

the skylons are pretty inefficent (700 watts rms of tru amps !!!!!!) vs the weight or sq of nvs...

here are some suggestions:

-lightweight enclosure & mounting
-quick release mounting
-efficent (90 db or higher)
-high quality/durable drivers
-looks good
-sound good
-$1200 or less

if anyone is interested in a new design..drop me a email. i have a something in mind that is new design and very efficent (looks cool too !!)

MIA,

I sent you a separate PM to talk about your design ideas. We are always looking for the next Wakeside Design Studio project. All of these projects have started with feedback and ideas from the community.

The Skylon Deafcon Reference IV and V are actually way more efficient than everything out there except for the NVS Entities. The NVS is efficient due to 2 inch voice coil and 10 inch cone. You do lose some low end with that efficiency. The 8 inch mid-bass in the Deafcon IV and V has a 1 1/2 inch voice coil but really excels in low-end punch. They are definitly higher than 90 db.

The Deafcon V is rated at 500 watts rms per pair but if you have a clean enough amp (like our Tru amp), you can push over 700 watts without damaging the mid-bass or HLCD.

I think Skylon achieved everything on your list except the Quick Release Mounting and price tag.

I agree that tower speakers are a "work in progress". Two years ago we were selling Skylon Tuna Tunes (Kicker based) and Boss B530's. The bar has been raised and will be raised again. We want to be part of that evolution of improvements.

I can tell you that I expect at least 5-6 manufacturers to introduce Pro Audio, HLCD based tower speakers at Surf Expo in September. We'll see who does it right besides NVS and Skylon. Maybe another leap-frog?

Mike

guys-

thanks for the emails...will contact today or tomorrow( i am at a compeny meeting with limited time).

efficentcy can be decpetive -
90 db at 2 ohms is a lot different than 90 db at 4 ohms....

actually 93-96 db @ 4 ohms would be ideal(very easy load for the amp). however it is very hard to achieve higher efficentcy without increasing the front baffle area (space and height limitations on a tower speaker).

Today's quality amps can handle 2 ohms all day long without thermal issues. That effectively doubles the output of the amp and increases efficiency.

What would be wrong with 93-96 db at 2 ohms?

there is nothing the matter with 93-96 db at 2 ohms...but most car amps (250 rms and above) do lose out in efficency due to heat (class a/b designs)..

i think it come down to personal preference..i would prefer to run 2 monoblocks at a 4 ohm load... in doing so, there is twice the power supply available if needed and minimal draw on the system (except for subs when running class d-this is a pretty efficent design imo).

most electrical systems are not up to delivering 500-700 rms AND the sub amp (i am leaving the boat inside boat speakers out of the amperage equation). that is a draw of at least 100 amps in it self..

however, it should be very clear since "most" home at rated at 8 ohms and "most" car is at 4 ohms..most speakers designs dips and peaks in impedence.

i ran into this the hard way when i bought a pair of audio physics speakers....85 db into a 4 ohm load (btw, that is a very brutal load).

most mobile systems are capable of running a 2 ohm sub and 4 ohms mids/highs ( i am speaking of zapco, jl, mac).

i think running 2 ohm in a non class d amp @ 400rms is a lot to ask..a more efficent and easier to drive design is desireable ( that is my opinion...)

Enter Tru Technologies.

If you can afford it, the Tru amps are class AB, rated at two ohms, and can put out way more than their rated power all day long without thermal overload.

This one puts out over 300 watts RMS into 2 ohm X 2, and is under $900:

http://www.wakeside.com/page/W/PROD/tru_technology_amplifier/tru_technology_t_2_200_v_2

This amp probably will perform similar to your 2 mono blocks. If the power supply is not under sized (like most Chinese made amps are) than you won't have power supply issues. This class AB Tru amp is as efficient as most class D sub amps.

There must be other amps out there that can do that but I haven't checked it out. We are still planning to add a less expensive amp line in that will perform well but not at Tru levels.

Mike

I am having no problem with my PPI PCX 2200 right now. It's putting 400 rms to each side right now @ 2ohms and sounds awsome. Couldn't be happier so far. Runs a little warm, but it has internal fans and a thermostat to maintain the temp.

Chad

On a side not Mike(wakeside),

When are you gonna put the chameleon lookalikes that you have inside you boat up on the site?

Chad,

We will have the regular Chameleons up in about a week along with IDMAX subs. We have already placed our order with ID and will start adding the products on our site.

The Marine version will take a few more weeks. The main difference is the cone material. I used the regular Chameleons on my last boat and didn't really have an issue with moisture, but that was only one season. I'm not sure how they would do after 5 years.

Mike

FINALLY got our new speakers on the site, they are at http://www.monstertower.com/accessory2.html and the quick release design is below.



I saw a post about cheap amps or anything else you cant take off the boat when you leave it and it describes my storage to a T.

Mr. Quick Release

Bill,
Nice job!

Looks nice Bill.