Yet another amp question

From what I have read it takes about 1000 watts peak power to a tower with 4 6x9's to have a decent projection to the rider. Im looking at the kicker kx850.4 do you think this will provide enough power? thanks guys
nate

Any other suggestion for this price point is welcome.

what is the price point ?

watch your gain settings when running this much power through 4 speakers rated around 100 watts rms. I have an 800 watt rms soundstream with the gains set at approx 6-7/10ths and 3 out of 4 of my polk momo's tweaters are toast. Polk WILL NOT warranty since I purchased off the net. I still think they are very good but need better tweeter protection in the crossover.

You dont need a 4ch for the tower. There is no such thing as peak (Amp) power (a 300 hp engine never makes 400 hp) That amp will easily power the tower and the interior.

Rockford Power series T800.4 never shuts down! not sure of the price

As Andrew suggested you could look at 2channel amps, and run your tower speakers in parallel. The amp will be seeing (more than likely) a 2ohm load, but this would also be a cheaper route.

Better yet, run two parallel pairs in series for 4 ohm mono, there is no such thing as stereo separation at 80ft anyway, and you will get better projection if it is mono. Plus, you can run a smaller two channel (classAB) amp bridged @ 4ohms.

I was going to give the new autobhan marine 6x9s with the horn tweeters that handle 240 watts rms. I have a line on the kicker amp for under 200 so i figured it would be a good upgrade. Or should I buy it and use it to run my interior speakers and get another two channel amp for the tower?

I have the audiobahn marine 6x9's and I really like them. They are gettin 125 RMS to each speaker from my RF p-500.2 ran in parallel

what cyclone said...

I learning new stuff with stereo never seems to end.
So finding a two channel amp that does mono 4ohm would be the better choice then.

But if I still got the kicker 850.4 can't I use a EQ to control the tower speakers on the front channels, and run the cabin speakers on the back channel at a lower gain?

thanks again guys

I run my 6.5in MB Quart tower speakers with an Alpine MRV-F545 4 channel amp. It is a very clean amp for the money. I have a dash switch that allows me to turn the amp off when the tower speakers are not needed. I am planning to replace the fosgate amp that runs my interior speakers with one or two of them.
The link below has more info on it. I have never bought anything from them, so I don't know how they are, but the amp is good.

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14929

So I have been looking at amps, and if I have this correct the only mono amps seem to be x1...So this only leaves one pair of hookups, I run the 4 6x9s into series, but it still leaves me with two positives and two negatives do I just put both sets into the one hook up? thanks guys

If you have a mono amp with xxx watts @ 1 ohm...
with the 4 6x9 which i assume are rated at 4 ohm, you get a 1 ohm load by wiring all 4 speakers in parallel....

If your mono amp is rated at 4 ohms, take 2 6x9's and wire them in series. Do the same for the next 2 6x9's. Wire these remaining 2 positive and negative connections in parallel.

I am almost positive this is correct

Alot of mono amps are class d amps. do not use a class D amp for anything but subs.

there are a couple class a/b mono amps..these work out really well for tower speakers since they can drive low impedence and have remote volume control capable..

here are some models

-zapco 500.1 & 1100.1
-arc 1500 (clarify the topology later versions are class d)
-kicker zr series (original...ulta powerful but sucks serious amps)

i kinda dig on the zapcos since they have built in line drivers and symbilink remote volume capability..

thanks clubmyke thats the problem I was having was that everything was a class D.. If anyone wants to chime in on more A/B mono amps please do.

nate,

it is really, really hard to find class a/b mono amps or stereo amps that are 2 ohm stable into mono..

i dont know what your budget the zapco stuff is really good and is reasonably priced when picked up used...

in fact, they will even hold their value if they are good shape and serial numbers intact (ie bought a couple zapco 350's for $200 used off ebay and used them for 18 months and sold them for $190 ) that is pretty good considering i had zero problems and they sound incredible... a cheap $200 new amp has questionable reliability and zero resale value)..

btw, another amp to consider is old school autotek, ppi art series (not the new ones), and mmats sq series (no factory service though).

the original kicker zr series is very, very powerful and hugely underrated (they are old school a/d/s designed and built in usa they have no problem with a 2 ohm mono load and have a bunch of different modules to configure the amp

kicker also made a "cheater" amp that would work well.. it is the original xs series (a/d/s design and build)...1/2 ohm stereo stable or 1 ohm mono stable !!!

the only reason i bring up the old school amps is they are very well built and had no problem driving low impedence loads and are reasonably priced if you look around..

new 2 channel amps that can run 2 ohm mono go for big, big $$$$ (zapco z series, tru, etc...)

Thanks for all the info guys, this has helped alot..
I found a zapco 500.1 on ebay, for a good price is it enough power to push the 4 6x9s for the rider to be able to hear them?

NAte, the 500.1 is not going to work well for your application. the 500.1 is not stable seeing a 1ohm load. If yrou wire them in par/series, the amp will see a 4ohm load and not "enough" power IMO. Maybe I'm missing something??

Zapco Reference 500.1 - $449
Highly efficient and therefore compact, an excellent choice for a pair
of NVS Addictions or a single NVS RX D4 subwoofer.

* Mono, 4 ohms: 1x360 Watts
* Mono, 2 ohms: 1x500 Watts
* T.H.D. + Noise: <0.022% @ 4 ohms
* S/N Ratio: >95dB
* Slew Rate: >29V/uS
* Damping Factor: >250 @ 4 ohms
* Dimensions: 12"L x 7.5"W x 2"H


this is the exact model im looking at, from my understand so far wiring them in series I will see 4ohm mono?

yes wiring them in parallel/series will show a 4ohm load to the amp. Is 90 RMS enough for each speaker? If so your right it'll work. I didn't think that was enough power. Someone will psot the underrated, but not by much IMO. or at least anything that you'll be able to notice.

you would get a more out if you could run the 500.1 to see a 2 ohm mono load...I would suspect 90 `real`watts to each speaker would be enough.

looking at what you want to do, I would suggest looking at a zapco 750.2..goes for about the same money and can be used in the 2 channel mixed mono mode (forgot to mention earlier)at 2 ohms so each speaker get more than enough (this is one of zapco best amps hands down)..

also check with your local zapco dealer since the grey reference series is in the process of being dicontinued (he might have trade in's at a very good price ~that's how I picked up 1000.4 for a very reasonable price)

Adam is right, that amp strapped in mono with the speakers wired 4 ohms will only push 90 watts, at most, to each speaker and that will be with the volume and amp level controls turned up.

If you are going to use the audiobahn 6x9 marine speakers, (I have heard them and was very impressed), get an amp that will deliver 600-800 watts at 4 ohms. Assuming you are using 4 of them this will deliver 150-200 watts per speaker. Using a 600-800 watt amp will also allow the amps level control to be turned about 1/2 up and will be more efficient with plenty of power in reserve. If it were my set up, I would wire 2 speakers in parallel for each side and showing the amp a 2 ohm load for each side and forget the mono set up for the 6x9's.

The days of saying the new amps are not 2 ohm stable is simply untrue. It's the older amps that are, for the most part, 2 ohm unstable.
Get a new amp that shows its specs for 2 ohms.

I wouldn't give up on mono to the towers..it is a huge increase output and provides a wider soundstage (at least 3db maybe more)..

as mentioned in a earlier post, the zapco's stereo amps have a mixed mono switch...very cool for tower speakers..

dave, I think you misunderstood what I meant about the 2 ohm impedence...pretty much all 2 channel amps will run a 2 ohm load no problem in the 2 channel mode...however, there are not a lot of stereo amps that will run a full range 2 ohm 'mono' load...

(Message edited by clubmyke on November 01, 2006)

I feel that people get waay too wrapped around specifications when it comes to the 4 ohm vs 2 ohm arguements. The amp is only going to produce so much power regardless of the impedence it is pushing. Just because it registers 500 watts on the test bench when hooked up to an unlimited stable 14.4 volt power source may not mean that it will push more than 360 watts in real world conditions. It's not likely that you will see much difference with the 4 ohm series/parallel combination. On the other hand I feel that the same amp/speaker combo plays louder when you can set it up to play in the mono configuration where all of the speakers are producing exactly the same content.

Personally, I feel that running Zapco amps to Audiobahn speakers is a waste of money. I would look into something in a mid-grade amp in the $150-250 range to push the Bahns. Names like Orion, HiFonics, Rockford Fosgate, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Directed Audio, etc. come to mind.

Hearing four 6x9's while riding is probably going to depend more on your boat's exhaust note, riding speed, and rope length rather than amp power. If you didn't check that silent choice muffler selection on the Malibu option list, you might want to step up to an HLCD system (NVS, Wetsounds, etc.).

Best of luck.

I appreciate everyones opinions and all the good info...

I agree with you mike on trying to find a cheaper amp, but its just not looking that way finding a 4ohm mono a/b class.

My boats exhaust is not to bad, it has silent choice mufflers on it. Im not going to set up to a hlcd system yet as I already have a 4 6x9 tower box and well as im 23 go to school full time work part time so budget is a factor.

This is all going into my 99 sanger, I don't know if you remember but I got a tri path amp from you a while back for my older malibu.

nate

i think i know mikeski well enough to say he brings up a good point but would still reccomend a used high quality amp...i do agree with him to a certain point.. i would not buy a new zapco to run your setup.. however, it is way, way better to have too much "clean" power than too little..i would estimate 95% of blown drivers are caused by underpowering speakers having too powerful of an amp.. keep in mind, internal and external heat play a factor here -most amps used on tower speakers are running full out.

a lot will depend on what is important to you and your listening habits... i have heard 4 6x9's in a glass box get very, very loud.... part of this equation was a very powerful amp...you want to have a healthy power margin when running tower speakers..imo, if you dont run hcld's, 4 6x9's are the next best thing..


if you dont buying used on ebay or a local shop. you can get a zapco 750.2 for $250-$300 and there is no contest between the zapco 750 any new amp on the market under $700 (the last 750.2 on ebay went for $242 + $35 shipping.)now is a really good time to buy them since there is new series coming out..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AME WA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290038642825&rd=1&rd=1

there are some other benefits to zapco that whe you add everything up, zapco's are a pretty good deal..

-built in line drivers (adjustable good for up to 12db gain). no problems running long interconnects.
-balanced connection (very quiet..no hum)
-symbilink conection allows for remote volume control
-high resale value
-reliable
-no question of power
-mono signal switch in 2 channel mode
-great customer service (make sure serial numbers are intact)

when you add everything up..i think used zapco's are the king of best bang for the buck ( i have never heard of anyone regretting buying one)

Hi Nate,

Sorry I didn't recognize your name.

Another option you may consider is running a 4 channel amp strapped to two channels. Run the tower speakers in series so they are 8 ohms per channel. This will result with the amp seeing the design condition while you only need to run two pairs of wires down your tower leg. You can find lots of 4 channel amps. If you run the Kicker 850.4 in this configuration your speakers will see 175 watts each (CEA watts). If you cross the inputs between the front and rear channels the tower will be run in mono. I can draw it our for you if this is confusing.

One minor clarification, if you want to run series parallel @ 4 ohms, put two speakers in parallel and then wire the pairs in series. If you put two speakers in series and then put the pairs in parallel, it also equals 4 ohms but if you lose one speaker it will disable the other speaker in series with it. One major advantage of running mono, only one pair of wires to run to your speakers. (12 gauge)

Ive been looking for a zapco 750.2 and just waiting on a good price for one..

I can get the kicker 850.4 for 170 shipped to my door, so thats still an option. If this is able to run mono by crossing the inputs and produces 175 watts, is this a more powerful set up then the zapco...


But when it comes down to it i know I can find a zapco in the low 200 range, so which is the better solution.

My tower was prewired from the previous owner and it actually looks like there is two sets of wires already going to to tower.

Psyclone,

I am recommending that he run each pair of tower speakers in series then each pair to a strapped pair of audio channels on from a 4 channel amp. This yields an 8 ohm load on a pair of strapped channels. Electronically the same load as a single 4 ohm load on each channel with the speaker wire benefit. This configuration also lets you choose between stereo and mono on the tower by simply swapping the L,R inputs to the rear amp channels (normal inputs for fronts).

If you can find a 750.2 in the low $200's it's definately worth it, but I see them in the high $300's. Double the price... my money goes to the Kicker.

Two sets of wires, meaning 4 individual wires?

L+, L-, R+, R-

or

L1+, L1-, L2+, L2-, R1+, R1-, R2+, R2-

(Message edited by mikeski on November 02, 2006)

Mike,
Sorry in advance for this long post, but I'm not sure I understand how you get to 4 ohms, you have two 4 ohm speakers in series connected to a bridged pair of channels? That still equals 8 ohms, because the other bridged pair in a 4 channel amp is essentially a second two channel amp in the same enclosure using one common power supply. So, unless I am missing something, you have two two channel amps bridged mono with an 8 ohm load on each @ 50% of the power. I haven't seen many amps (old Hifonics for one, some Orions, probably them Zapco's that you could bridge both bridged pairs down to a single mono channel @ 2 ohm load less. Not saying that they aren't out there, it's just very unusual because of the exponential current requirements of the power supply. You could probably use such a power supply to make a 12vdc MIG welder

What I was saying was just that there are two ways to wire four 4 ohm speakers into one 4 ohm load, either by putting two speakers in series and wiring them in parallel with two more speakers in series, or wiring two speakers in parallel and putting them in series with another parallel pair. They both are the same load, 4 ohm, but I just don't like running single speakers in series (option 1) because WHEN one speaker fails, it disables one other speaker. In option two, when you pop a speaker the good speaker in its parallel pair is still seriesed with the other parallel pair, so the load goes to 6ohm with three speakers vs 8 ohm with two speakers. Either way, you can wire the speakers in the box and you only have two wires, + and -, to run down the tower to the amp.

I figure you already know all this, did I miss something?

Pete

Nate,
As for finding a single channel class a/b amp, don't bother, they don't exist. Just get a two channel amp and bridge it. I have a cheesy Kenwood two channel bridged mono that is supposed to deliver 480 watts rms @ 4 ohms (yeah, right!) powering four Polk Momo 6x9's. They can handle 100 watts, so it's a decent match. If I put a higher wattage amp in, I'd probably start popping the tweeters on the Polks, or frying voice coils. I can hear it while riding, at least when my son is driving, wife won't turn it up;)

I have a five channel amp running the hull speakers and sub, I recommend that you not go that way. The fifth channel is a class D sub channel, the power supply in the amp can't supply enough grunt for the sub, so it sounds flabby. On my NEXT boat (very soon!!) I'll install two identical two channel amps, one bridged mono for the tower @ 4 ohms, one for the hull speakers in stereo @ 2 ohms (front and back speakers in parallel) and one large class D amp for the sub(s)

Psyclone,
Thanks for the info, im going to get a two channel amp, ive been looking for the zapco 740.2 which has a mono switch on it.
So if I understand this right when I wire it I want to set up one in pars and one in series and this will run it in mono?
thanks
nate

nate,

here is wiring instructions for running the zapco 750 in 2 channel mode outputing a mono signal.


-run the amp in 2 channel mode
-wire the speakers as you would in parallel (2 speakers per channel- 2 ohm load)
-there is a switch for mixed mono, stereo, bridged right channel...place the switch in mixed mono...

you now have a stereo amp configured to output a mono signal....

psyclone,

totally agree with you on the single channel class a/b amps... there are very out there...

besides the zapco's and some of the arcs (btw, i am trying to keep this as reasonble as possible and i not including the esoteric $$$$$ brands or the old school models that are only available used...)

another cool stereo amp is that comes close is the jl audio 300/2 bridged mono- can output full power into 3-8 ohms... cant do 2, but reasonably priced, and will work in the right setup (the older black reference sereis zapco can run mono into 2.87 ohms)

I'm too lazy and have no drawing skillz so I grabbed this off the web. Wire your speakers as shown in the parallel/series example (bottom) Notice that in the top example, if one speaker pops, the other one in series with it will stop working as well. That's why its better to wire it as shown in the second example. Either way yields 4 ohm load with 4x4 ohm speakers

Psyclone,

I was thinking of running a 4 channel amp strapped to two channels. If you run them in series wired pairs the load will be 8 ohm, similar to the top diagram with the centers split.

(Message edited by mikeski on November 04, 2006)

Thanks alot guys for the info, you have given me alot of good info.