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Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-06-2018, 1:10 AM Reply   
Hi,

I've been lurking around these forums for a few months now trying to do my best to learn about wakeboats in general, and was hoping this group could help me out with a few questions.

Background

Firstly, some context...we're first time boat owners. Sure, I've driven a boat a handful of times, but that's the extent of my boating knowledge..never launched a boat, or dealt with an engine failure on the water, etc...all very nerve racking We're a family of 5 (plus a dog) with three young boys (6, 4 & 2). I initially was considering more bowrider style boats (Cobalt, Sea Ray, etc) but the more I learned about wake boats, the more they have appealed to me. I like the fact that we have the option to properly wakeboard and surf (especially as my kids get older) and the v-drive has a safety factor that really resonates with me since the prop is set back pretty far.

And now onto the questions:

Front Facing Passenger Seat

The reality is that we'll use the boat for cruising a fair amount...at least 50%, so it's important to have a front facing passenger seat. In reading the forums, this seems to be counter to most enthusiast's preference, but I'm really hesitant to purchase a boat that doesn't have an option for the co-pilot to face forward.

In my research thus far, it seems like the Mastercraft X-35 and Nautique 210 & 230 (with the flippable lean back seat) have these options. Well, the X-55 also does, but it's far too big for us.

Are there other models that have this functionality/feature that I should consider?

Choppy Water?

We'll be using this boat in Lake Tahoe, which from what I understand can get quite choppy. I'd love to get a boat that can handle rougher conditions. Doesn't need to be a beast in choppy water, but I also don't want to get concerned if the conditions turn get rough.

My understanding is to go with a deeper hull, but I'm not sure if that's accurate, or the only thing we should consider. I believe the X-35 has a deep hull, but unsure about the nautiques.

Towing?

We have an Audi Q7, and I'd prefer not to purchase a new vehicle just to tow our boat. We'd only do longer tows twice a year as we have a dock to use during the summer...but those will be long 4-5 hour drives. Sadly I didn't get the TDI or air suspension and my understanding is that the car is rated to tow ~6100lbs.

Should I just be looking at dry weight when considering the weight of the boat? Especially for these long drives where I could potentially tow them without gas.

Used Prices

These seem to be all over the place...and I can't figure out exactly how best to gauge whether a used boat is well priced. We'd prefer to go used and honestly haven't narrowed in on a budget yet. It started small, around $40k and has slowly creeped up as I've seen all these awesome features (and considered other things such as the fact that most surf systems came out in 2012).

I understand that the engine and options can influence the price of a boat, but are there other factors?
Are there particular best times to buy? Or best sources? I've mostly used onlyinboards.com, boats.com, and boattrader.com.

Ok..I have lots more questions, but I think this is enough for now
Old     (rexlex01)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-06-2018, 3:49 AM Reply   
Some Tige 23 V’s and Malibu VTX’s, LSV’s came with passenger captain as well, but would assume the Tige would be better in chop.
Old     (rexlex01)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-06-2018, 3:59 AM Reply   
https://www.onlyinboards.com/2008-Ma...ota-71162.aspx

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/20...3lsv-103169665

Last edited by rexlex01; 02-06-2018 at 4:02 AM.
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-06-2018, 5:55 PM Reply   
Do NOT look at dry weight....that is the factory number without tower, batteries or anything else. Just for context, the dry weight on my 24ft boat is 4,800lbs and with tower, fuel and the other stuff, its more like 6500 plus the tandem trailer at 1500, so 8000lbs total.

Guessing you will need to be looking for a 20-21ft boat to stay in your limit and that may still be hard. Look into weight distribution hitch too.

For rough water....deep V hull. You can find a nice reliable boat for $40k in good shape. Probably 2006-2009 depending on the model, options, hours, condition, etc and NOW is the best time to buy, or a month ago, lol. Closer you get to Spring, the higher the prices start going. If you look at Tige R20/R21....Or Axis A20 you could get a new one closer to budget tho you may have to up it a tad. Tige is going to have a Deep V hull and so will the Centurion boats.

My wife is not crazy about no forward facing passenger seat cause she gets migraines from keeping neck turned and we came from nice Sea Ray I/O where she was used to forward facing comfort, but these boats are WAYYYYYY better in so many ways its not in the same galaxy and the "Action" is going on behind the boat! A good deep V with have a comfortable ride in bow where its forward facing, other than that not sure what to tell you.

Your family will forever remember and thank you for getting a boat. Money well spent and invested in the future of your family, best family time you can get IMO.
Good luck in the search
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-06-2018, 9:53 PM Reply   
Thanks D...this is super helpful!

I'm pretty nervous about the towing aspect. How do I go about figuring out the total weight? I didn't even think to consider the trailer

Yes, I was looking in the 21-23 ft range...but 23 might be pushing it due to weight.

If I was to compare just the X-25 vs the Natique 210 (or 230), which one has the deeper hull? How do I go about figuring this out (to date, I've just noticed that in some reviews they mention a deep v-hull while they don't in others). The X-35 has the best option in regards to front facing passenger seat, as it's flippable (you lose some storage, but it feels like a good compromise), but I do like the overall look/feel of the nautique.

Of course, I need to go check them out in person
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-07-2018, 4:21 AM Reply   
X35 is also a deep v, and one of the smoothest and dry rides you’ll find in an inboard. X25 is a deeper v than a 210, but it’s nothing like the 35 would be. For the things that are most important to you, it seems the X35 would be the best choice, except for towing. It would be pushing it, and you’d want to check total weight. I’m sure it would be close on the 7700 (iirc) tow rating on the Q7. Fuel/gear/trailer add up.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-07-2018, 12:40 PM Reply   
Thanks for the info.

The manual for my car says ~6100lbs tow rating...but it's also super cryptic to understand and I'll need to find someone to help me decipher it.
Old     (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-07-2018, 2:05 PM Reply   
Had a buddy who towed his 2004 21' Malibu VLX with a mid size like the Q7. It got the job done but not very well, especially over the mountains. I believe Tahoe is mountainous?
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-07-2018, 2:25 PM Reply   
Yes...Tahoe can have some significant elevation gain. And there is a portion that is a very skinny & steep road. There may be a longer way around, that is a bit wider and flatter, but I've never tried it, so I'm not entirely sure.
Old     (cbarguy1)      Join Date: Dec 2012       02-07-2018, 3:11 PM Reply   
X35 is probably too heavy if you are towing any distance with your Q7. It's a big boat. If not for that it would be a good choice thought the price may be higher than you want to spend. Welcome to our world, your boat choice often dictates what you drive.

The forward facing seat really limits your choices. With an open bow there's the option to face forward up there but it gets breezy. Maybe let her drive? My wife loves it.

X25 is a good choice for smooth ride. It's got a V shape hull. Centurion boats also have V hulls and are excellent surf boats. Plan to spend $60-$70k and you can get a really nice boat. Surf Supreme also has a V hull and those can be had new in the low $70s.

Malibu 23 LSV is a great wake boat and usually my first recommendation because they've sold a million of them. That makes the used market a buyers market. But it doesn't have a forward facing seat and its not a V hull.

Last edited by cbarguy1; 02-07-2018 at 3:16 PM.
Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       02-07-2018, 3:19 PM Reply   
You’ll kill your family towing a boat through the sierras in that thing. Buy a used 3/4 ton diesel. I’d also look at sanger v230. Also gonna need to reprop the boat for Tahoe. That thing becomes a ocean so for a rook your gonna have to learn fast.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-07-2018, 3:26 PM Reply   
Yea...I'm worried that I may need to buy a truck. Or have it towed up there and just keep it (which doesn't sound feasible).

What are your thoughts on the Natiques I mentioned...are those hulls not deep in comparison?
Old     (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-07-2018, 3:33 PM Reply   
Why don't you get rid of the Q7 & get a truck instead? I've been driving trucks for so long I can't imagine going back to a midsize.
Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       02-07-2018, 3:38 PM Reply   
Need a 3/4 ton for Tahoe period. Even a half ton isn’t enough you’ll blow through tranny’s. And the jake brake is a life saver.
Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       02-07-2018, 3:44 PM Reply   
Shoot I’ll pull it for you for a small fee. Lol seriously.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       02-07-2018, 3:52 PM Reply   
No on Nautique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddog78 View Post
You’ll kill your family towing a boat through the sierras in that thing. Buy a used 3/4 ton diesel. I’d also look at sanger v230. Also gonna need to reprop the boat for Tahoe. That thing becomes a ocean so for a rook your gonna have to learn fast.
Lot of truth ^^
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-07-2018, 4:00 PM Reply   
Find a nice 2015/16 Tige Z3 with taps 3 and you’ll have a super deep v surfing machine. And trade the Q7 in on a new half ton which will drive beautifully and surprisingly seat quite a few comfortably.

For the Nautiques I don’t believe they’re known for having a nice deep v for rough waters.
Old     (Surfer101)      Join Date: Oct 2015       02-07-2018, 4:04 PM Reply   
This may work if you want to keep the Q7... bit it would definitely know it’s back there...it currently has avx but taps 3 can be added, looks super clean.
https://www.germainemarine.com/defau...OwnedInventory
Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       02-07-2018, 4:08 PM Reply   
I don’t know how you think you’re gonna stop that thing going down 50 or 80. Seriously. You’d be bay **** crazy imo. And a half ton will smoke tranny’s pulling boats through the sierras. If you don’t you don’t know. I know.
Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       02-07-2018, 4:16 PM Reply   
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto...488170589.html

Something like this. You’ll be stoked.
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-07-2018, 4:54 PM Reply   
I have 2016 Chevy 1500 which pulls my 24ft boat without an issue where I live (not mountains tho)....if you are up and down actual mountains like the Sierra's, you will need a 3/4 ton truck or you will wear out your trans eventually and run thru brake pads. The year of boat/trailer you buy will determine what kind of brakes you have. My tandem 2014 boatmate will stop my 1/2 ton truck and I have no worries on braking at all, even in mountains (I also drive easy when towing). If you get an older boat, you may have to consider adding electric over hydraulic brakes since they make a huge difference, if you have a bigger truck tho, that will not matter as much even tho much safer to have good brakes on your boat trailer.
Lot more to think about if you have to upgrade the truck and buy a boat! But at least you are finding out this stuff before you buy the boat so you can go in with your eyes wide open.

Deep V hulls that I am aware of that will handle chop the best....Centurion, Tige and Supreme. Mine boat is a Centurion and cuts thru chop like it isn't there, bigger the boat the better it will do it. Whatever boats you look at, look at the bottom of hull, the flatter they are the worse they will handle chop
Old     (Kwclark)      Join Date: Oct 2013       02-07-2018, 5:24 PM Reply   
I would not make a front facing seat your main priority for owning a wakeboat. You will most likely make wakeboarding and wakesurfing a much bigger percent of usage over cruising after you buy it.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-07-2018, 9:38 PM Reply   
Ok...I'm convinced the Audi won't work

Only way we'd keep the Q7 is if we had the boat shipped to our home in Tahoe (local inventory is weak so I'll most likely have to buy something out of state), and have it stored locally, so we don't actually tow it much. But that's probably unlikely (and boat storage in Tahoe is super expensive).

Thanks for all the feedback...these reality checks are exactly what I need

Sounds like the Nautique isn't a good option given the lack of a deep V, which is a bummer because I do like their style/setup. I will start doing more research on the Tige, Centurion and Supreme boats. I either gotta get past the front facing passenger seat, or just go with the X-35.

On question related to other boat manufacturers. How important are these surf systems? My understanding is that they were generally introduced in 2012 (actual year depends on the manufacturer), and it appeals to me as I think I'd actually surf more than wake. What happens in the older models?
Old     (racer808)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-08-2018, 12:25 PM Reply   
The surf systems are nice to have, I wouldn't get a boat without one now that I own one. Plus resale, that's what everyone wants. Others can chime in, but I have heard on the Supreme the surf system sucks & it's still a better surf boat listed. I am partial to MB, I love my damn boat & the Go Surf Assist allows me to run close to 3 tons of ballast with a long & very powerful wave, WAY better than our Malibus wave was.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-08-2018, 4:00 PM Reply   
That's what I figured...Guess I gotta do some research on the Mastercraft surf systems (I'm up to speed on Tige & Centurion)
Old     (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-08-2018, 4:20 PM Reply   
Most 2014 and up MCs will have Gen2. 2013s could be retrofitted, but not many were, I don’t think. Most 2013 and older had the first gen MC system, and it was really only useful for tuning a listed wave. It wasn’t like the gen2 system.
Old     (insuranceman)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-08-2018, 5:39 PM Reply   
curious about your Q7. I used to have a 2012 Touareg TDI and it towed like 8k.

if you are trying to stay under the 6100 lb you might look at a MC x2 and then either buy a 2014 with gen2 or buy a older one (but not a 2012) and add GSA. did that with my 07 and it throws a awesome wake.
Old     (infinitysurf)      Join Date: Apr 2017       02-08-2018, 6:25 PM Reply   
On older boats without an automated surf system....you can either add GSA (go surf assist)...which is also sold thru Wakemakers as "wave control", these cost about $4,000....OR you can do a stick on surf gate that attaches with suction cups. You can make one cheap if you are handy or buy them for between $200-600 depending on which one you choose. I use a Nauticurl suck gate on mine (about $230), works great and sticks really well but a surf system is definitely more convenient due to push button and ability to switch sides in seconds, and I will likely install GSA on my boat soon
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-08-2018, 8:39 PM Reply   
FWIW, we take our MB F22 out on Tahoe and it does great. You'll definitely know you are out in chop in the afternoon on Tahoe, but the boat handles it fine and it isn't brutal. MBs have deep V hull and have a great dealer in Sacramento (Larson). Ours ready to go and on the trailer is probably right around 6000 lbs or so. No forward facing "co captain" seat, but it is comfortable to sit in sideways and whenever we are cruising we find that all of the people in the main cockpit just talk and stuff anyway, so facing sideways or toward the back works best for that. My wife and tfriends LOVE to ride in the bow, too. We have loaded up the boat with 6 adults and 7 kids and run all the way from the south shore to Sand Harbor up north or over to Sunnyside and Meeks Bay with no complaints from anybody.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-08-2018, 9:33 PM Reply   
Regarding how to know if a boat is a "deep v" or not, you'll want to take a look at the boat from the rear. Here's a picture of a deep v hull (this is an MB F22 Tomcat). Notice how the bottom of the hull is shaped into a "v"? Many wake boats are pretty flat there at the stern. Generally, deep v hulls will ride more smoothly in chop. IMO, they are also more side-to-side weight sensitive with respect to the wakeboarding wake than a flatter hull. The different designs all have their advantages and drawbacks, but a deep v is good for rougher water if ride quality is important to you.

Old     (Reddog78)      Join Date: Mar 2017       02-09-2018, 8:15 AM Reply   
If I was buying relatively new I’d be getting a mb. They are a great bang for your buck boat.
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-09-2018, 3:45 PM Reply   
Iíve got quite a bit of boating experience on Tahoe. I canít imagine too many places that would be worse to get your captains feet wet, no pun intended. Most of the time you can boat around just fine and not have a problem. However, you can find yourself in big trouble out of nowhere. Iíve been scared many times on that lake. It is not to be taken lightly. Ever. Either swamping or capsizing a boat there has very serious implications, especially with little ones. The water temp, even in the summer can take your breath away. Literally. Iíve personally locked up in it before. Itís scary when you canít breath at all and you know you need to get out immediately. Now imagine being a mile offshore with nothing but that shore to swim back to. Now throw your wife and three kids in the water with you. That danger is always real there. Every year somebody dies at Tahoe because they just donít realize how hard it is to swim in water that cold and air that thin for any amount of time.

That being said, a bigger boat is always better there. Freeboard is king. These newer wake machines fortunately have a lot of it. My buddies Tige 22Ve is not enough boat for Tahoe. Weíve yet to sink it but, damn, been close many times and we both have been boating there all our lives. Too close too many times. He is looking for a cruiser right now. The Tige will become a small lake boat and the cruiser will live at Tahoe. Heís got a wife and two little ones and its just too damn scary too damn often. Riding at Tahoe, for the most part, sucks anyways. Unless you ride before 9am or after 8pm you can basically rule out getting any good water. If you do get any good water, youíre lucky. Thereís always boat traffic and most of it is in the form of 25í+ boats. Itís not like there is anywhere to hide either. There are no coves, no fingers, nothing. Well, there is Emerald Bay but, thereís no riding in there. Itís a giant soup bowl and compared to most lakes, itís alway full of Campbellís Chunky. Throw in a holiday weekend and holy crap. Best bring your big boy pants. Riding is more about survival than it is going out and landing your bag of tricks. I certainly wouldnít want to learn how to tow a rider there either. We rarely ride there anymore. Itís mostly just cruising and were all fine with that as we spend lots of time at all the other lakes around and can usually get good water. Not to say you canít go out and have fun. Itís just not as fun as having smooth water. Seeing giant boulders 50í below while riding is pretty cool though.

Not trying to freak you out. Just keeping it real. Itís an amazing lake but it can bite you if you arenít on point.

So, big boat. You need a truck. Lake elevation is 6200í. If itís just towing around the lake itís not a big deal really but if you need to get it up there a few times a year, a diesel is the only way to go. That being said, the Allison transmission rules the mountains. I wouldnít do it any other way. On a budget, Iíd be looking for a clean Ď06-Ď07 Duramax.
Old     (cyncetastic)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-09-2018, 4:52 PM Reply   
My husband and I are kind of in the same boat (no pun intended... har har) as you. We have a 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee with a V6 and needed something small/light to tow. Plus we want to be able to garage it at home, so length was a factor as well. We have no kids at the moment, but plan to have a couple soon. We ended up going with the 2018 Supreme S202 - which is a 20.2' and about 3,500 lbs dry, which is pretty light. The newer boats tend to weigh less than boats even a few years old, which pushed us to buy new vs. used.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       02-10-2018, 9:46 AM Reply   
Be careful with dry published weights. My 2013/ 2014 RZR's had a published weight of 3300 lbs. On a trailer with nothing in the boat but a few life jackets the boat weighed north of 5000 lbs. If I recall correctly my 2013 was 5100 on a single axle and the 2014 closer to 5300 on a tandem. My guess is your Supreme S202 is in the same situation.

My guess is your V6 Jeep is rated at 5000 lbs max towing(if properly equipped as they state) and if you went and weighed on a certified scale I bet you are right up against your max capacity or exceeding it. Keep in mind most recommend only going to 80% of capacity to account for the weight you are going to have in the tow vehicle. Your 5000 lb capacity includes your passenger and cargo load in the vehicle...

For any one looking at boats here is your public service announcement...DONT EVER BELIVE PUBLISHED WEIGHTS!! If you using that to push your towing capacity your gonna exceed your vehicles limitations every time.

Last edited by boardman74; 02-10-2018 at 9:49 AM.
Old     (Blamey)      Join Date: Apr 2016       02-11-2018, 12:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
Be careful with dry published weights. My 2013/ 2014 RZR's had a published weight of 3300 lbs. On a trailer with nothing in the boat but a few life jackets the boat weighed north of 5000 lbs. If I recall correctly my 2013 was 5100 on a single axle and the 2014 closer to 5300 on a tandem. My guess is your Supreme S202 is in the same situation.

My guess is your V6 Jeep is rated at 5000 lbs max towing(if properly equipped as they state) and if you went and weighed on a certified scale I bet you are right up against your max capacity or exceeding it. Keep in mind most recommend only going to 80% of capacity to account for the weight you are going to have in the tow vehicle. Your 5000 lb capacity includes your passenger and cargo load in the vehicle...

For any one looking at boats here is your public service announcement...DONT EVER BELIVE PUBLISHED WEIGHTS!! If you using that to push your towing capacity your gonna exceed your vehicles limitations every time.
My first boat was a 95 Sport Nautique which I pulled with a Hyundai Santa Fe.

The car did fine pulling the boat. I didn't trailer much besides the 300 Miles picking it up. I did buy a brand new trailer for the boat to feel safer when pulling.

Last year I got myself a F150 for Christmas and I must say it's so nice to have a vehicle made to tow.

You can make do with a crossover SUV and I know both the Jeep and Q7 are more capable then the Santa Fe but if it's at all possible, upgrading to a body on frame vehicle that has a tow capacity with a good amount of headroom just makes very thing that much more comfortable.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-11-2018, 11:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulSurfer View Post
Regarding how to know if a boat is a "deep v" or not, you'll want to take a look at the boat from the rear. Here's a picture of a deep v hull (this is an MB F22 Tomcat). Notice how the bottom of the hull is shaped into a "v"? Many wake boats are pretty flat there at the stern. Generally, deep v hulls will ride more smoothly in chop. IMO, they are also more side-to-side weight sensitive with respect to the wakeboarding wake than a flatter hull. The different designs all have their advantages and drawbacks, but a deep v is good for rougher water if ride quality is important to you.
This is very helpful! I know see how the Nautique's have less of a pronounced V.

Last edited by gmoniey; 02-11-2018 at 11:04 PM. Reason: removed image
Old     (chexi)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-14-2018, 11:53 AM Reply   
I am not saying a Q7 TDI or VW Touareg TDI is a good choice for mountains, but my Q7 TDI pulls my Centurion SV233 fine (although I have not pulled it up and down mountains). Mine is a TDI, which is rated for 6600 lbs. The VW Touareg diesel is rated for 7700 lbs. The difference is due to the Q7 being a little bit longer (third row seat), placing the trailer weight further off the rear axle. VW Touareg TDI's can pull like crazy. However, they have a shorter wheelbase than trucks, so trucks are better for tracking / anti-sway.

No on Nautiques. Great boats, but even the G's bounce in the chop. I was really not happy with the G23 I was out on in the choppy part of Lake Austin, and that is nothing compared to Tahoe.

Bought my first Nautique (1999 Air) from a guy on Tahoe. He nearly sunk it during the test drive because he did not know there was a center plug and his mechanic pulled it when winterizing the boat. Fortunately, I found it in the glove box when we saw the water coming into the boat from the motorbox. That day could have really gone the wrong way. Ended up being a great boat. Still miss it.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-16-2018, 12:21 AM Reply   
I finally got a chance to go see some boats in person yesterday. Went to two separate dealers, one sold Tige and Cobalt and the other sold Nautique and Supreme.

It's easy to see why the Nautiques have such an appeal to them. The craftsmanship is pretty high (as is the price!). It was interesting to see how much a difference there was in the freeboard between the G23 and GS23 (unfortunately they didn't have any 230s in the showroom).

I also didn't realize that the newer bowriders have a "surf" boat where the prop is forward facing and it has surf tabs. The dealer actually pushed the Cobalt really hard suggesting that is was simply a much better boat for Tahoe (he is probably right, but of course, the nautique dealer also pushed hard that they would do fine in tahoe as well).

I initially got excited that the new bowrider surf boats (Cobalt, Four Winns, and Regal) would be the best of both worlds for us, but it doesn't seem like they put out a very good wake based on my youtube research. I have limited knowledge about wakes in general, but just looking at videos there is clearly a difference. On the flipside, we're never going to be experts (and its difficult to predict how much my family will take to it) so it may not make that much of a difference. I just wish the Cobalts leveraged the space better and had wraparound seating in the back.

One thing to note is that I struggled to see/determine the difference in the hulls (the V of them) between the tige and the nautique...they looked incredible similar with the nautiques being slightly flatter.

I'm hoping to go visit a Mastercraft and Centurion dealer in the coming weeks, and also attend the upcoming boat show.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-16-2018, 6:56 AM Reply   
You said one dealer sell Nautique/ supreme and another sells centurion?
Weird lol.. Supreme/centurion are the same brand since 2011. Like Moomba/supra.
And they parts of correct craft family (Nautique). First time I heard centurion and supreme aren’t sold at the same place! Probably dealer business before they merged tho..

I’ve not seen the whole thread but Moomba does really great first boat. They are very good bang for the buck.
You saw Nautique (wich is for me the top of the line.. ok Mastercraft more luxury but that don’t means the boat is overall better haha)
Nautique are pretty expensive boat (but Mastercraft even more). When you want a better price friendly you got to chop in something..
Moomba delivers a fair well compromise with a low price and a good quality product.
Almost every wake boat owners I know started with a moomb (me as well) they are easy to find used. People change them after few summers, low hours, good shape, sometimes you find VERY good deals. Sometimes more than others like used Honda Civic are easier to find than infinity G35.

Personally I have a Nautique 210 and love it. I’m surfing since maybe 8years ago and wakeboard since 10 maybe 11..
My opinion is than different than yours cause I wanted the best surf boat I can afford. After lots of research and experiences I opted for Nautique.
Love the 210 because it’s pretty aggressive price for a Nautique. And my lake is 4 999 dry weight restricted. So that let us not too many choices.
A neighbor have an older 230 (2014) and the boat is just insane. He invited me a day because he wasn’t understanding how can my wave could be bigger than his lol so I explain some tips, how to set correctly their ballast and go buy a fatsac or 2. 210/230 are so much underestimed lol. They can produce a phenomenal surf wave when you balance it well. Anyways.

Difference in hull is a brand and model thing, they are slightly different. Some use Deep V, convex, etc. But they all works differently.
Tige have their convex V hull that works great. It’s the most fuel friendly hull I’ve seen. But on the downside this hull make it a little bit capricious. When somebody moves on the side to the other you feel it. Every brand have their pos and cons.
Malibu in the opposite have a hull that can take a party load of people and do wathever they want when you surf and barely noticing it.
It’s a matter of preferences and to be honest.. not SO much differences between all of them. Yeah different when you surf since 10years and know a lot about pretty much all boats.. but for a beginner? Not a big deal. Every brand will make what you expect and every brand gonna make you happy. Theses days they are
Pretty much all the sames.

The best tips is go see every model that interest you, take a top 3 and demo them. Even if it’s used. A seller that don’t make test drive isn’t worth buying it.
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-16-2018, 7:13 AM Reply   
But in chop water the deeper the V The less it gonna bump.
MB sport have a deep V. Tige Z series have Big V too.
Nautique are V hull but not so much it’s pretty much much a compromise between The two world.
210/230 is more V shaped than G series. GS between the 2.
Old     (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       02-16-2018, 11:54 AM Reply   
I know it isn't as exciting as buying a brand new boat off of the showroom floor, but if you've never had a boat on Tahoe before, you may want to try a rental.

These guys have a Supreme V226 for rent, and it would be a great way to get into a wakeboard boat without dropping full dollars for one yet.

https://tahoesports.com/activities/s...226-surf-boat/

These guys will rent out Cobalts -

https://www.rentaboattahoe.com/boats/


Also, the Sacramento boat show is coming up early next month, which will allow you to see everything in one spot.

Tahoe is tough on boats because on summer afternoons when the wind kicks up it gets downright ROUGH out there. Driving any boat at speed when it is rough isn't super fun, unless it is a very deep V hull, or even better a cigarette style!

If used is an option, I have a buddy with a very nice Tige Z1 for sale.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       02-16-2018, 3:24 PM Reply   
Nautique (Correct Craft) actually owns Centurion and Supreme..
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-16-2018, 7:09 PM Reply   
@Mike, yea, they sold Nautique and Supreme. He explained that they were both built/owned by Correct Craft. I do wish they have some 230s there for me to take a look at.

I'm also trying to figure out how to balance between Deep V vs Freeboard. For instance, if the G23 has more freeboard, but less of a V, is that better or worse when it comes to handling rougher waters?

@Eric, yea, I would normally rent first to get a better sense. I've been out on Tahoe, but we rented a pontoon. In my case, we're gonna spend 6 weeks up there this summer (I'm taking a sabbatical from work) so my plan is to have a boat ready to go by then. Also, I'm already planning on going to the boat show...I expect to walk away even more confused

And yes, used is actually the preference. I'm looking nationwide and trying to figure out budget. If I decided to go with an I/O "surf" boat (which in all honesty isn't much of a surf boat), I may be forced to go new since there isn't much inventory. Although, that would up my price point to roughly $100k, which would mean I should consider other used boats (like G23s).
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-16-2018, 10:08 PM Reply   
somebody said his story earlier about his G23. And I’m pretty much pointing in that side.
More freeboard and less V, meens worste for handling chop water.
G23 is hell of a boat (my top2 boat hands down) but maybe not the best option for rough water, sure it can turn out great but if you can have something better in your situation why not.

In case this morning I was curious about your post and made some research. The most Deep V hulls on the market are MB sport and Centurion.
After reading comments on rough water centurion seems to be your best choice.
The ri217 is my top1 boat. This machine is monster. Lots of great features And since they share with Nautique now it just made centurion even better.
Wasn’t sure if it was a deep V. Got my answer and it’s pretty much one of the deepest V right now on the market. Created to slice into rough water instead of bumping and slapping like other v shaped hull. with sort of shape design each side of the hull that seems to stop little waves.

It’s a big boat, good in chop water, a crazy load of ballast so I have no doubt it can be the best boat in rough water since you can put 5000pounds of weight + more than a couple of people in it without being scared.. That means the boat will sit down very deep in the water and make it more stable.

Ain’t sure if you can get it for a 100k tho.. but if you check used G23 if I were you I’ll check ri217. Almost 22foot boat (21,7), The model came out in 2016 I think. Kind of similar as G series, more price friendly and better in rough water. Just my opinion!

Last edited by Mike88; 02-16-2018 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Tapping
Old     (CCool)      Join Date: Aug 2017       02-17-2018, 7:09 AM Reply   
I think you should get a new truck so your boat options arenít so limited. I know a guy whoís got a sweet deal on a 17 supreme. PM me if youíre interested.
Old     (Blamey)      Join Date: Apr 2016       02-17-2018, 7:29 AM Reply   
Lots of info on different wake boats in this forum but definitely look at the bowriders.

You'll get better hull options with the bow riders, more freeboard and deep vee hulls. You'll give up on world class wakeboarding wakes but you will have a boat that is going to be easier to drive and will be usable in more conditions.

I know there are newer I/O's that are made for surfing with the reverse drives but I don't know how well these hulls surf.

Overall you are going to have to sacrifice on water sports ability with an I/O but you'll gain on overall usability.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-17-2018, 2:26 PM Reply   
@Mike...makes sense. I haven't been able to make it to a Centurion dealer yet (it's on my list but a few hours drive). One question, when the water does get rough, would I use the ballasts to my advantage (e.g. fill them up), or am I better off with them empty. Also, how did you figure out it was the deepest v hull of the bunch? I've tried googling around for that and wasn't able to figure it out (same question goes for freeboard, since it doesn't seem to be listed in the stats for boats).

@CCool...I don't think I'm limited by the truck/towing capacity. At the moment, the plan is to keep it in Tahoe in the summer (on the dock) and tow it closer to me in the winter for storage. Since I'm really only towing it twice a year, I can either hire someone to tow it for me, or I have more time to buy a truck. Biggest downside that I've figured out is if I can't tow it locally, I may end up in awkward situation if I send it for repairs with a dealer/mechanic that I don't like

@Paul...that's exactly the dilemma I'm facing right now. It looks like Cobalt and a few other manufacturers have a forward facing I/O which are "surf" boats, and Sea Ray even has a v-drive (discovered that last night). The surf wake is pretty weak though. Just looking at youtube videos, the difference is pretty clear. That being said, I am starting to lean in this direction as I'm such a novice in the boating world that the bowrider simply may be a better fit for us. And to be honest, we've never really surfed or wakeboarded, so I'm putting a lot of weight in a direction I want my family to go in...not necessarily the direction they will go in. Of the bunch, I like the Sea Ray the most since it is a v-drive and has wrap around seats. But I've heard that Sea Ray's quality may be on the decline given the company is up for sale.

Just wanted to reiterate that all the feedback/suggestions have been incredibly helpful, so thank you all! I've learned a ton in the last few weeks.

Last edited by gmoniey; 02-17-2018 at 2:26 PM. Reason: typo
Old     (Mike88)      Join Date: Aug 2016       02-17-2018, 3:35 PM Reply   
That’s a good point from Paul tho.. we talk but we kind of forgetting the base haha.
We try to see wich ę*surf boat*Ľ are the best on chop water but we talk about world class professional surf wave lol..
Thing is like you said you never really surfed and wakeboard so.. a world class wave maybe not really what you’re looking for!
I’ve learned wakeboard behind a seadoo lol, not surfing but I was wakeboarding behind a jet boat for like 3 years. Back in the days it was fairly enough for me!
And jet boats are reputated to be the crapiest boats for wakeboard/Wakesurf lol.

Just want to say that bowriders may be better in rough water (don’t have a lot of knowledge with these types of boats).
And if they have surf system that can be fairly enough for beginners.
Because honestly when water is chop it’s not even fun to do wakesurf.. wakeboard even worst lol.
Buying a surf boat and can’t do surf because conditions are never good is kind of a headache!

For your deep V hull questions. Not have full knowledge in rough water. But weight should be on your side when water is rough. More weight will give you more stability and less bumping when water gets rough.
For finding specs it’s just good searching. Hull specs, inclinaison, forums are a good way to find respond to our question haha. Pretty all manufacturer give their specs when you search well. And when you know how to search it help too!
Pictures are easy to find too. And see by yourself wich hull is deeper than another. For freeboard it’s easy to know too. Just calculate the boat draft (part in the water) and to total height of the boat. You have your freeboard. All these numbers are mostly marked with models spec on the site tho.
It’s kind of easy to see too. Take a look at a Nautique 210 and G21. 210 have way less freeboard compare to G and you see it just with a quick look!
It’s experience too.. like you said your new in the boating world! When it’s been 10years you too will probably have some knowledge of you give some interest.
I’ve changed my boat last summer so I took A LOT of new info too! Lots of research and test drive. Asking lots of questions. Referring pretty much all surf models to make the best Choice for me.

Another point you mention and forgot.. DEALER PROXIMITY !!! and dealer experience.
This should be your NUMBER 1 concern. Dealer proximity is really important, because even if the boat is new issues are there. Sometimes it’s just maintenance but it’s always a good thing to not have to drive 4hours every time your boat have something..
I experienced it lol. Bought a huge deal off season boat from a 4hour away dealer. Never again!
I had few warranty claims and repairs over the summer and it was a total mess to do 8h trip each time..
A boat is a boat and a boat broke it’s life lol. Some broke less than other but still having the dealer 30minutes away is paradise lol.
Now I just took the nearest, whatever the brand it sells.. Luckily it was a Nautique lol.
Dealer experience too! It’s important to ask questions how the dealer deals with their claims, how much mechanics works in hot
Season, how much garage doors, are they having on rode technicians, etc. If you got to wait 3 weeks to make an oil change it can mess up a whole summer too!
So at the end the dealer is sometimes more important than the brand itself.
These days pretty much every brand are like the same.. they all does the job.
Like Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc.. pretty much all the same! Just personal preferences will get you to buy one more than another.

And hey! We’re here to help you haha.. it’s what forums are made for !
Old     (fence_sence)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-22-2018, 5:12 PM Reply   
Dealership proximity is huge. Tahoe dealerships/shops charge top dollar. They can, itís Tahoe. I would buy out of Reno/Sparks. Easy drive to Tahoe and Nevada pricing. No state sales tax. Marine Specialties has a real nice looking 230 they just got in.

One thing to consider on Tahoe is docking. You WILL end up boating to restaurants and bars. Itís Tahoe. Thats what you do. Once you get there, you need to dock. Some places its easy to park, some places are definitely tough. Towboats are not the easiest thing in the world to park, even for us seasoned pros. Throw in a bunch of big chop and it can get downright diabolical. Spouses are shouting at each other, kids are crying, dogs are barking. Then youíve got A-holes like me watching and laughing at the new fish struggling to get tied up. It can be a real chitshow. Slow speed maneuvering is much easier in an I/O. Something you should definitely consider.

Another thing to consider is wake performance. One of the beautiful things about really clear water is that wakes are always better in it than any other type of lake due to the water being much less buoyant. It always amazes me when we take our boat to a clear mountain lake how much better the wake is. Your ballast becomes much more effective as compared to a dirty or salty lake. My point being that maybe the wake performance might be a lot better behind one of these new tractor drive I/Os up at Tahoe. Youíre right though, they donít look too great but Iíd like to see one fully loaded on a cold, clear lake.

Iím not a huge proponent for these new I/O surfboats but, it might be a great place to start before diving headlong into a new bigassed wakeboat.

Centurion has always had a bit of Tahoe boat built into them. With Fineline being down in Merced, Tahoe is a natural spot for them to end up. For years the brochures were always photographed at Tahoe. I believe the old owner of Centurion was a Tahoe guy or at least that was what I heard. That 237 is one hell of a machine. Nice towboat for Tahoe.
Old     (Blamey)      Join Date: Apr 2016       02-22-2018, 5:35 PM Reply   
One thing that hadn't been mentioned is the classic saying.

"The best two days of owning a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it".

The reason for this is that owning a boat is not like owning a car.

Cars these days require so little maintenance lots of people don't know how to open their hood and if they do they have no idea what to do once it's open.

Boats are not like this. They are not produced to the same standards as cars. The environment in which they are used are much harsher to everything and small mistakes can be costly (did you remember to put the plug in?)

Don't bite off more then you can chew. Boat ownership may not be for you. So make sure whatever choice you make isn't going to bite you in the ass at the end of the season.

It may not be for you but 10 year old boats will save you a chunk of cash if you decide to get out vs something new. If the boat has been well kept, doesn't have crazy hours it should run like a new boat. You may not get the coolest boat on the lake or get all the modern convinces (surf systems) but really out side of that not much has changed. Once you've gotten your feet wet, you'll have a much better idea of what you like to do with a boat. The big exception to this are the new surfable I/O's.

That said boat ownership can be very rewarding. It's some of the best time you can have together as a family. Some of my best family memories as a kid were form boat days and my 4 boats have all provided me tons of fun.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-22-2018, 9:15 PM Reply   
Thanks for all the info....as usual, super helpful.

As I've been considering/researching buying a used out of state boat, my understanding is that there was no way of getting out of paying CA state taxes Although I didn't consider what happens if I buy it in person in NV. I'll give them a ring tomorrow.

A number of people have mentioned dealer proximity being really important. I'd love to get more info on that. Would other dealers not service a boat not purchased from them (even if they sell that brand)? Or would they not prioritize it?
Old     (Blamey)      Join Date: Apr 2016       02-23-2018, 7:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoniey View Post
Thanks for all the info....as usual, super helpful.

As I've been considering/researching buying a used out of state boat, my understanding is that there was no way of getting out of paying CA state taxes Although I didn't consider what happens if I buy it in person in NV. I'll give them a ring tomorrow.

A number of people have mentioned dealer proximity being really important. I'd love to get more info on that. Would other dealers not service a boat not purchased from them (even if they sell that brand)? Or would they not prioritize it?
Yeah, taxes are the biggest cost when buying a boat.

I've bought a boat from a dealer and didn't pay tax until I registered it in my state. I store and use my boat in New Jersey but still have to register it in New York because I dont have a New Jersey residence. Also NJ reg save about 5%.

I have registered a trailer in Maine before when NY DMV wouldn't accept my out of state paper work. I may have to do that again because my local DMV wants me to produce a title for my trailer that I bought in New Jersey, even though NJ clearly states they don't title trailers that size.

Check with the Nevada DMV or whoever you register boat and trailers with to see what they need. If you have property in Nevada you may be able the register it there.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-23-2018, 8:30 AM Reply   
Clarifying question: Will you be boating primarilyon Tahoe or just sometimes? If that will be your primary place to boat, you really might be better served by a different type of boat, as opportunities to do watersports on Tahoe are pretty limited. There is a reason you see a lot of Cobalts on Tahoe - they work well there (and there is a long-established dealer on the lake at Sunnyside).
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       02-23-2018, 9:18 AM Reply   
Any certified dealer will work on your boat. Engines and many other systems are common between most inboards. You may have to pay a higher hourly rate, like $100 vs 75 per hour. If you have a service shop close to you, give them a call and ask if they would be interested in helping with your boat and what rates would be.

Tahoe looks like it could turn into a washing machine pretty quick. I think you should get several hours under your belt on a smaller lake. make SURE you buy a deep v hull and watch the wind.

Last edited by denverd1; 02-23-2018 at 9:24 AM.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-23-2018, 3:53 PM Reply   
@SoulSurfer, this would be primarily used in Tahoe. We have a house there, so we'd mostly just go out on that lake.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-23-2018, 8:49 PM Reply   
In that case I would recommend getting something that is more optimized for the majority of the boating you will actually be doing. If it were me, I would be looking closely at the Cobalt R3, Cobalt CS23, and Bryant Calandra. All with forward drives, so you can still do some surfing if you want. The reality is that Tahoe. I dig ions are seldom good enough for “serious” wakeboarding or surfing and one of these boats will do just fine for casual water sports. They will be awesome for cruising the lake to beautiful anchorages in Emerald Bay, Rubicon Bay, Meeks Bay, Sugarpine Point, sand harbor, skunk harbor, etc. also good for loading up the family and running to sunnyside for lunch or up to the Hyatt for drinks at their floating bar. That’s my 2 cents.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       02-24-2018, 9:22 AM Reply   
Back to your dealer question....

If you buy used its really not an issue.

If you buy new HUGE ISSUE. Boat dealers have what are called protected territories. If you live in City A and want a Nautique you HAVE to buy from dealer A. So when you break that rule and buy from dealer C(dealer C should turn you away) and then show up to dealer A for service and warranty the fireworks fly. First dealer A files suit with Nautique for territory violation. If he wins he gets all lost profit, basically what he could have made selling at MSRP, plus a fine paid to him by dealer C. It costs dealer C way more than he made so most dealers stay away..

It happened twice while I worked for the dealership and both times a call was into the manufacturer within minutes. Its not hard to figure out. Dealers sell 20-30 boats a year, they know what they sold. When a new boat they didn't sell shows up the dealership stops....Then your boat goes to the end of the service line because dealers, rightfully so, take care of THEIR customers. In mid season that can put you 4-8 weeks without your boat.

Moral of the story....if your buying new buy from where you are going to service.

Buying a boat is not like buying a new car where you just need to find a Ford/ Chevy/ Dodge dealer to get warranty work.....
Old     (eternalshadow)      Join Date: Nov 2001       02-24-2018, 9:54 AM Reply   
I wouldn't get as hung up on the "deep V" discussion. My family had an 18' I/O (still does) and he always heard that his I/O with a deep V would be a smoother ride in any chop than a wake boat. I purchased a used 2012 Malibu VLX and I can say it handles much nicer in chop than our I/O ever did. I imagine it's a combination of boat size and weight but at the end of the day unless you can try one vs the other it's hard to compare.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       02-24-2018, 3:16 PM Reply   
Man you 18 I/O must have rode poorly in the chop, as most will admit that a 2012 VLX (while an awesome boat) is not a great rough water performer. They are more based on the flat aft ski boat concept versus the newer deeper V's we are seeing on tow boats designed for surfing. Its what makes that great rampy wakeboard wake.
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-24-2018, 4:01 PM Reply   
I think the key part of that is 18 foot. In very general terms, I think most folks realize bigger and heavier is better than shorter and lighter when it comes to ride comfort in chop. Hull design makes a huge difference, too. Granted, we aren't really talking about "big" boats here in any case, but a well designed 23 foot deep V bowrider is going to be a completely different animal than an 18 footer.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-25-2018, 9:05 PM Reply   
@RB

The dealer point you made in regards to new boats totally makes sense. A few non-local dealers have pushed me away, which makes sense.

Where it gets extra interesting is in new 2017 models that are being heavily discounted. If local dealers don't have those in stock, then going to a different dealer gets tricky.
Old     (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       02-26-2018, 6:42 AM Reply   
Normally territory do not apply to concurrent hold overs.

But you may still run into service issues if you do to a dealer where you didn't buy. Especially if they remember you shopping them and then going out of area.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       02-26-2018, 11:29 AM Reply   
OP should be clear as mud
Old     (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       02-26-2018, 11:32 AM Reply   
Just saw this on Craigslist this morning, might be a great option - https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa...509127442.html
Old     (SoulSurfer)      Join Date: Oct 2016       02-26-2018, 2:04 PM Reply   
That would be a fantastic Tahoe boat. Priced a bit high, though, I believe.
Old     (Shoebox)      Join Date: Aug 2017       02-26-2018, 2:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
Keep in mind most recommend only going to 80% of capacity to account for the weight you are going to have in the tow vehicle. Your 5000 lb capacity includes your passenger and cargo load in the vehicle...
This is not exactly true. Tow rating and payload rating are 2 different things, and gross combined weight rating another thing again.

If a vehicle has a tow rating of 6100 lbs, it might be able to tow a 6100 lb boat. Maybe.

But what is the payload rating? That is what can get someone overweight quick. That includes weight of people, dogs, coolers, gas in the vehicle, plus tongue weight of the boat.

Then the combined gross weight rating is total weight of vehicle/occupants and boat. It's very vehicle dependent but unlikely to be overweight if the boat is under the vehicle's tow rating.

I agree with most here though, get a 3/4 ton truck. Doesn't have to be diesel, gas 3/4 tons tow great, but diesels definitely tow better.

If you think you'll want to surf, get a surf/wake boat. If not, get a Cobalt.
Old     (gmoniey)      Join Date: Jan 2018       02-27-2018, 11:58 PM Reply   
@Eric That's a good find...actually not horribly priced for an R5. The 2018s R3s are going for the same price.
Old     (Smoothie)      Join Date: Feb 2018       02-28-2018, 4:43 AM Reply   
I test drive a Chaparral 264 Surf and it was a great boat and drove and handled great. It has the Malibu surf gates on it and threw a pretty good wave (although not as clean and as big as a Tige 23')

I didn't surf behind it so I don't know how much power or push the wave had but I read it isn't much. I'm also not a big fan of the front facing prop with no protection. I would be worried about running over a limb in the water and having it go under the bow, and I like to beach the boat, even in full trim it hangs down pretty low.
Old     (WakeWise)      Join Date: Jun 2014       02-28-2018, 8:04 PM Reply   
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