Ballast Question

It's almost winter here and it's time for the auto ballast !!

On a 99 Sunsetter v-drive I am putting in 3 sacs in the boat.

My questions is: Could I just drill a hole in the back of the transom for water pick-up, and have three pumps connected to that 1 hole via some sort of manifold?

2nd, I was planning to have only 1 shut-off value and that would be between the hole in the transom and the manifold.

3rd, I was thinking of using three pumps, can anyone recommend a two way pump to use that is not too expensive? I can sacrafice an extra 5-10 minutes of fill time to save on pump costs.


Your thoughts are appreciated

With the pick up in the transom I don't think you would be able to fill the system while under way. You would have to sit there and wait for it to fill. I think a scoop under the boat would be better.

To my knowledge, there are two 2 way pumps. Simer (I forgot the model) and Jabsco Ballast puppy. Jabsco are standard on MCs and are over $200. Simers are not ignition protected and can not be put in the motor or bilge area due to the possability of ignighting gas vapors (some people do, but the coast guard wouldn't approve). On the upside, they run around $80.

Aireator pumps will actually be close (probably less even with twice the pumps) in price and are faster but more finicky. Aireator pumps don't prime and you have to keep the pump below whatever you are pumping.

Aaron is correct. The mushroom in the transom will not let you fill while under way. You can get a little over no-wake speed, but any faster and it will suck air. The other problem is that this set up is pron to vapor-lock because air gets trapped in the manifold at the pump inlets. To prevent this, you need to mount the thru-hull higher then the manifold to allow the air to percolate out when the boat is launched.

A scoop works great, fills under way, fast fill time due to the water being force fed into the sacs. The down fall is that you will need something to prevent continued filling while under way, and back flow (self draining). An electric Gate Valve is one solution, but the life expectancy seems to be about a year or so. A manual valve works just the same, but you will have to open and close each time, and is usually very hard to reach.....not really an "automatic" system now. Expensive 2-way pumps will also work in place of a gate valve or manual valve. A manual valve as close to the scoop for emergencies is still a good idea.

The route I'm going is a mushroom thru-hull through the bottom of the boat. This will allow filling under way, but not force fed, so no need for gate/manual valve. I can use the less expensive Aerator type ballast pumps (Tsunami=$38.00/ Ballast Puppy=$200.00) but you will need 1 to fill and 1 to empty. To prevent any drain back, a simple $8 plumbing check valve after each pump outlet is all you need.

You could use 1 pump to fill multiple sacs with the use of a diverter valve (common in RV's) Dont know what they cost. Some are manual and some are electric. I briefly looked into it but felt that it was just one more place for a problem, plus pumps are so cheap.

Good luck.

Dave, I bought 2 reversible simer pumps from BeAtlas (1-800-304-4393) part# BW8512 at $77 a piece shipped if you wanna go the simer route . . . I'm using a mushroom thru-hull on the bottom as well . . . Some people just tap into the raw water intake but I just don't see that as such a good idea but it seems to work just fine for most people

Chpthril, what size mushroom did you go with ?

1.5" x 5" It was easy to find all the PVC thread-to-barb fittings and 1.5" hose. Got most of the plumbing stuff from www.flexpvc.com

I'll cut down the length after installation.

I went with 1.5" too what size hose are you running to the bags ?

"I went with 1.5" too what size hose are you running to the bags ?"

I'm going with 3/4 hose and 3/4 quick cons (from fly-hi). I chose to use the Tsunami T800's because they use a std 3/4 thread instead of the odd ball 1 1/8 used on the T1200's. Too many reducers and hose clamps to get it down to the 1" quick cons. Either way, the hole in the sac is the same so even with the 1200's you will have some restriction at the sac fitting. Cost was another factor. I found the T800's for $23.99 @ www.foreandaftmarine.com

When I said scoop. I was thinking a through hull fitting with a scoop that force feeds a pump or manifold. With a ball valve in between.

chpthril - unless you have some way to get air out of your intake manifold, you may have problems getting you pumps primed. I have a scoop feeding 2 aerators and the natural pressure on the hull doesn't like force the air up into the system. FYI

Chpthril, I'm going with 1.5" tube from intake to the manifold and then 1" off each pump into the sacs with 3/4" overflow tubes think that will work ok ? btw sorry about hijacking the thread Dave

Nacho,

The vapor lock was also a concern here, just like the thru-transom. We know that these aerator pumps will pass air/water through the impellers because they will force feed with a scoop and drain back with out a check valve. We expected the air would just rise up through the pump outlet and be replaced with water at the inlet. A friend just swapped out his scoop (due to 2nd failed gate valve) and he has not experienced any issues. Time will tell.

If needed, the mushroom could be replaced with a scoop

Montg,

Dont see and issues with it.

I used 2 Jabsco Reversible Vane Pumps for my set up in my 2001. They are rated at around 5 gpm and 2 of them fill my 1300 pounds of ballast in under 10 minutes. They were only $163 each at the local marnine store. They are said to be designed to transfer diesel fuel but they work fine for my set up. The reverse switch is located directly on the pump but is easily removable if you want the switches located remotely. This is what I did and it works great.

Here's a link to one I found online http://www.allpointsmarineco.com/view/262/837/

Not sure if it's the same model number I have. If you want to email jwilson.223@gmail.com, I can find the exact model number that I used.

(Message edited by illkid on November 21, 2007)

here's a pic

J, That's not a bad deal on that type of pump.

Less clutter/cleaner install, less plumbing and less points for leaks, Less wiring, less hose,

That would add about $300 to my install, so that would be a tough decision. Trying to spread this out and not break the bank, been working on this project since June, I think i'll save the $$$ and upgrade to a custom surf sac this Summer.

I was very impressed with they're prices and service and I ordered the 3-way rocker switches that say fill - ballast - empty on them from my local MC dealer for $11 a piece

Hey thanks for the info.

The aerator type ballast pumps (Tsunami for under $ 40),...are they ok to mount in the engine compartment??

The two way pumps draw quite a bit of power. Did anyone do or think of putting in relays? I guess a person would have to have two fuses per pump seeing how they are reversible and have 2 power lines going into pump.I would think it needs 2 relays per pump. I don't know if I would want that much power running through a 14 gauge wire run from the helm area to the back of the boat?

Where would be the best place to order some through hull water pick up's. I guess I should use 3 waterpick ups's?? 2 for the 2 rear bags and 1 up front for the sac in the floor?

"I was very impressed with they're prices and service and I ordered the 3-way rocker switches that say fill - ballast - empty on them from my local MC dealer for $11 a piece"
wow I said they're instead of their hee hee

Dave, yes you can mount it in the engine comp. as long as it's mounted below the water line and yes you run relays for the simer pumps as for ordering thru-hulls I got some at WestMarine.com and IBoats.com

Dave,

Like Montg said, ok to mount in eng comp. they are basically bilge pump with threaded fitting instead of a cage.

For the 2-way's, typically you run 2 wires from the switch to the pump, and a fused power (or through a breaker) and a ground to the switch. The switch will reverse the polarity to the pump.

Relays are a great way to go. Check the amp draw on the pumps, and see if you can find a switch that would be rated for near 1.5 the pump amp draw. If so, no need for relays.

If you do go with a reversible system, I would go with ~10ga wire, and use relays to keep the wire lengths as short as possible. Here's Dane's old schematic on how to wire relays:


I've built both types of systems, and I really prefer a good aerator pump system. They are way faster, way quieter, and draw way less amps. Here's my manifold for T-1200's: http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/341405.html

The scupper type intake is also very worth having. Not only helps the system fill faster, but it will also force out airlocks - all you have to do is get the boat moving forward.

I was very wary of the electric gate valve reliability too, but I've been running a DrainMaster for 2 seasons now with no failure. I do have the motor pointed up, to keep bilge water out of it. If it does fail, I'm going to replace it with a cable-operated gate valve.

You need to be very careful where you place vent lines and drain ports. Your sacks will only fill to the level of the ports unless you use a vented loop in the vent / drain lines, which is a PITA. Also, use some kind of spiral-ribbed hose - pretty much anything that's not will kink. Lowe's/HD has some good 1" stuff in the garden pond area.

(Message edited by trace on November 23, 2007)

I would go with ~10ga wire, and use relays to keep the wire lengths as short as possible. Here's Dane's old schematic on how to wire relays:


I've built both types of systems, and I really prefer a good aerator pump system. They are way faster, way quieter, and draw way less amps. Here's my manifold for T-1200's: http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/341405.html

The scupper type intake is also very worth having. Not only helps the system fill faster, but it will also force out airlocks - all you have to do is get the boat moving forward.

I was very wary of the electric gate valve reliability too, but I've been running a DrainMaster for 2 seasons now with no failure. I do have the motor pointed up, to keep bilge water out of it. If it does fail, I'm going to replace it with a cable-operated gate valve.

You need to be very careful where you place vent lines and drain ports. Your sacks will only fill to the level of the ports unless you use a vented loop in the vent / drain lines, which is a PITA. Also, use some kind of spiral-ribbed hose - pretty much anything that's not will kink. Lowe's/HD has some good 1" stuff in the garden pond area.

Going way back to what nacho said about concern for vapor lock with a mushroom through hull located on the bottom of the boat.

I have a 1.5 inch mushroom on the bottom of my boat, the pumps are still below the water line, so there is plenty of water pressure that forces any air out of the pumps, and cannot even imagine a problem happening with vapor lock.

When I do my next ballast system, I anticipate stealing Trace's manifold and using the T1200 tsunamis. Then using 1 inch hose as much as possible. But that is likely an task for next winter, if all goes well.

I am about to start my ballast install in my V-Drive and I have about everything figured out except for one thing,,the over fill lines. I am doing the aerator style system w/2 pumps to fill and 2 pumps to empty. My question though is,,should I have one line for over fill or could I use the empty line as an over fill line as well. I think that is how my factory center ballast is b/c there are only 2 lines attached to the sack. If someone could give me some pointers I would greatly appreciate it.}

You can tee them together with a check valve on the vent line to use the same thruhull. The vent line should come from the highest port in the sack (to burp air), and the drain pump should be attached to the lowest port (to stay primed).

Also, I should have said "where you place thruhulls" above. This is very important, and I see people screw it up all the time.

I agree a mushroom will get most any airlock out, but without a main shutoff valve, any sacks below the waterline (locker) will also self-fill. I haven't seen it, but IMO there is also some risk of creating airlock if you're going fast enough. The pressure at the inlet will decrease as your speed increases, and could get to the point of causing an airlock. A scupper does the opposite, filling faster as your speed increases. It also keeps large debris out of the system. A sea strainer probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but I've never used one, nor had any problems with debris.

Good points Trace.

The lakes I am at are very clean, so the debris is not an issue for me. If I lived in some of the places I see in Florida, I would have a strainer, there is just too many leaves and debris.

The bags are above the water line by a long shot, especially when the boat is moving. The other thing I have done is my intake lines are in the top of the sack, which is even higher, and they loop up pretty high, so water NEVER goes in to the sacks unintentionally.

Having the pressure decrease on the bottom of the boat enough to create vapor lock when under way...I haven't seen it either, but sounds like good theory.

Does Flow-rite make a valve for 1 1/4" or 1 1/2". I looked on their web site but couldn't really come to a conclusion.