HELP!?!? Motor Trouble

Ok, so we are working on the boat and have narrowed it down to the intake manifold.

wow, ive never seen the oil turn to that kind of sludge almost looks like you put mud in your oil. the intake is cast so the possibility of it being cracked is small. Either gaskets or a cracked block, leaking exaust manifold or cracked head would be my guess.

Thanks Nate, we are replacing the gaskets and exhaust manifolds no matter what. We dont think it is a cracked head because we are getting good compression from all cylinders. I hope its not a cracked block.

We are ruling out the exhaust manifold because it still leaks water out of the ports (port #6 to be exact) with them off. (probably the only fun thing working on the boat was running the engine like that).

(Message edited by malibuboarder75 on May 22, 2006)

You are f-ing crazy.


Save your $$$ and send the boat to Dallas. WSA employs the single most incredible Service manager. Fix it right the first time and you won't need to post.

Rich is obviously intimidated by anything mechanical. Keep going, you'll save thousands by dealing with this yourself..These engines are 1950-1960's technology.

is this a crack?:


Unless the crack is obvious -- the only way to find it is to take the bare engine block to a machine shop and have them Magnaflux it. That'll detect cracks that are not visible to the naked eye. You'll be surprised.

The color of the sludge concerns me. It looks like the engine ran for quite a while with water in the oil. Fresh water/oil mix is milky white. That looks a burnt from the water running in it. If that's the case, It maybe advisable to replace bearings.

Plus, you're really going to want to break the engine down all the way to get all the water out of it. Probably have it hot tanked -- (machine shop job.) Otherwise, you'd have to clean out all the sludge, and then change the oil 3 or 4 times right away to 'flush' it.

I'm pondering this some more. I can't figure out why the bottom of the intake is covered with the sludge. It looks like the engine was upside down. Maybe the hydraulic lifters are spraying the entire area with oil?

The oil looks normal for a water/oil mix. No need to go in and super clean it but try to get as much out as possible. Doing an oil change after running for a bit will help, but if you do let it sit for days then pull the plug and see what comes out. Definetely keep an eye on the oil and try to get it cleaned up.

Now Craig's picture post is what you need to be looking for in the way of cracks.

Those intake gaskets need a very close inspection. I would have used a smoke machine to determine where the leak was before tear down. Even now it would still be a good test blocking off the manifold holes and inducing smoke into the engine block. Unfortunately few shops have invested in the worlds greatest diagnostic tool. Still need to determine if it is cylinder heads, gaskets, or else something like the engine block.

If you can take really clear close up pictures of the four water jackets on the manifolds and the heads I would be more than willing to inspect them, or just use your own judgement for gasket failure. The headgasket can be leaking into the oil return passages without effecting compression or anything to do with the cylinder itself.

Peter, I dont think its coming from the head gasket because water is squirting out of exhaust port #6 when we run the engine without the manifolds. I dont think a small crack would do this and still have compression.

I have had a block with a crack all the way around front to back and still have good compression and go on to win the demo derby. Either way the bearings are definitely shot and that motor needs to be taken completely apart and rebuilt. Yes you could put it all back together but I would bet a pretty large sum that the motor would let loose in the very near future any way.

I know Peter Chandler will disagree with me but again, a leak down test would have told you exactly were the problem was. Doesn't anyone do a leak down test anymore? The tool is approximately $15 plus having a compressor...

Good Luck!

Water coming out of one exhaust port - sounds like the head is cracked to me. I agree the best fix is a rebuild, but how long has it run with water in the oil? If it's not long, I'd be tempted to flush it with solvent *very well* and give it a shot.

Just had one more thought on the flushing thing - this is farmer technology, and I've never tried it myself, but the machine shop supervisor I work with swears he does this about every 5-10 oil changes, and he has like 350k on a late 70's GM smallblock:

During an oil change, drain the oil from the motor but don't remove the filter. Refill the crank case with diesel fuel(!?). Run the motor in the driveway for like 10-15 min, watch the oil pressure, goose the throttle a little to keep things stirred up. Drain the block, change the filter, and refill with regular oil.

Leo:

Why do you think it is the intake?

If water was leaking into the intake manifold then I would expect it to be entering all cylinders, or at least more than one.

I am also confused about your statement about water coming out exhaust port #6. If the cylinder will pass a compression test and there was any siginificant amount of water in it then I would expect I would expect it to hydrolock and not turn over.

If it is just a tiny amount of water and the cylinder actually fires then I would expect the water to vaporize and not be visible on the output.

It is still possible that it is a head gasket and that water is leaking from the cooling system into the exhaust port and not going through the cylinder.

At this point I will agree with Bocephus and suggest that you run the leak down test. Something is going on in cylinder #6 (or its neighbor) and if you tear it down further without running the leak down test you will lose the opportunity to gain knowledge that might become essential later on.

Something is leaking somewhere. I doubt it is the intake maniold but it wouldn't be too much work to throw a new gasket on it and try it. I believe that you are going to be pulling the head, however.

If the head comes off and you can't visibly see a problem in the gasket then take the head down to a shop and have it checked. Cracks can be hard to see by the naked eye.

If the head is okay, and it wasn't the intake then about the only thing left is the block.

If you do put the intake manifold back on then I have another test for you: Cap off the water line from the raw water pump and where the water dumps into the exhaust and then run a pressure test. You should be okay running it up to 15 PSI. Perhaps with the engine off and the pressure on you might actually be able to hear where the leak is.

I do not remember reading about water in the cylinder?? BTW never run an engine without the manifolds on. You will cook a valve in a matter of seconds.

Why, Bocephus would think I disagree on a CLT check is beyond me, but that is kind of a valid test at this point considering you have water coming out number six hole. It probably doesn't matter though as the heads are coming off and need to be magna-fluxed and checked anyhow. If the headgasket is good and the heads pass inspection you have a bad block. Buy a short block and reinstall the now rebuilt heads, especially after running the engine without exhaust manifolds. Number 6 hole is no where near the intake water jackets, so it is not an intake leak there.

I have never seen a CLT tester for $15 and a professional quality tool like the one I use will run close to $300. You do not actually need to do a CLT check as much as pressurize the cylinder(s); #6 for starters. The CLT will tell you how much it is leaking, but you know it is leaking and just need to find out to where not how much %. If you can get a compression tester with an air hose fitting and adapt it to a compressor then you can use it to test. Remove the schrader valve in the bottom of it so air can flow in. A blow gun with a good seal (Non OSHA) would work too. Set that hole on the very top of the upward stroke with all the other spark plugs installed and simply remove all the rocker arms which closes the valves. Apply shop air to it and listen/feel where the leaks are. Then remove the air and turn the motor towards the bottom of the stroke and hook the air back up and see if it changes. This will kinda check the block to see if there is a crack in the cylinder wall.

A boro-scope will also work wonders if you happen to have access to one. I still like the smoke machine as it is fast, and where there's smoke...well, there is a leak. In my tool box is also a tool that once the heads are removed you can pressurize the cylinder with a CLT tester or shop air to see where the leak is and how big. Helps when doing headgaskets, because if they are blown you can not tell the condition of the cylinder/rings etc. until the leak is repaired or by testing them independantly of each other. Unfortunately few shops/people own the block off plates.

As to the lower end bearings how long was it run with water in the oil? Under load? I have only seen damage done when someone kept using their engine. Will wind up with a rod knock eventually.

Never put diesel in your oil period. Marvel mystery oil or ATF but only one quart to a short interval oil change.

For the record, I wasn't really recommending that, but if I were in Leo's shoes I might try it.

Peter,
We had a disagreement on the leak down test on a different thread so I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that you would have the same opinion on this one too.

My Bad.

From where I stand it almost has to be a crack in the waterjacket of the head leaking water into the exhaust port. How else can you explain the water in no. 6 ? A intake problem would almost certainly hydro lock the engine as rob stated (like the gm 3.8l series 2) a headgasket would not allow water into the exhaust port without first entering the cylender, same with the block. If this was the case a compression test would be fine as would a leak down test. The only way I can think of to prove it is to put presure in the cooling system but its a little late for that. Did water come out with the enging off?

I agree, and good point on passing compression & leakdown tests, but how is the water getting into the oil from the exhaust port? I think there are 2 cracks.

Trace, you could be right. Most cracked heads I have seen have seen on cast iron heads are large eneough to leak into a oil galley or into the valve cover area.

You guys need to remember this in not a pressurized cooling system where after the motor shuts down the pressure continues to build. So if it were a headgasket the cylinder would not necessarily hydro-lock. It could very well pump the liquid right out of the cylinder. These are not ultra high compression engines. The spark plug and a quick visual will tell all though as they will be very clean, with no carbon buildup. Ever hear of water injection? Cleans the engine and raises octane, while cooling the cylinder.

In this case a CLT check is only going to tell you there is a leak, not if it is a cracked head, headgasket, or cracked block, so the test is only so valid, unless it shows you right where it is by sound, sight or feel. sometimes we get lucky. Dissasembly is the final diagnosis. CLT tests shine when you have a compression problem and let you know where the compression issue lies before dissasembly. Also if you are not sure of a headgasket problem, like when you have a slow loss of coolant with no signs of leakage, often pressurizing the cylinder for an hour or so with a ballon on the cooling system will answer the question.

Headgaskets problems can also come and go depending on heating and cooling as they are very dissimilar metals.

I agree with Peter for once!

Either I would rebuild that sucker! That includes a complete cleaning in a high-temp oven and magnafluxing all the parts. I WOULD NOT GO TO THE TROUBLE OF PUTTING THAT THING BACK TOGETHER WITHOUT MAGNAFLUXING EVERYTHIN!

Just my opinion.

We found the problem. There is a leak in the Cylinder Head.

A leak in the cylinder head, what do you mean? A crack? What are your plans with the engine?

Go buy a rebuilt block and put everything from your old engine on it and then you wont have to worry about it for another 8 years.
Or you can spend more time on this one and probably have to do the same thing in a few months when it breaks down again. In the long run you will be saving yourself money.

True, headgasket would explain the oil in the block, but not the water coming out of the exhaust port (with good compression on all cylinders). Any recent major overheating events?

Seems like a rash of serious internal engine problems around here this year.

edit - Good, found a problem. More details please! Also, how many hours are on this block, and how long was it run with milky oil? Depending on the circumstances, I'd still be tempted to just get the head fixed and throw it back together, but I'm kinda shadetree ghetto.

(Message edited by trace on May 23, 2006)

Pictures, we want pictures!!!

Trace, headgaskets can blow in multiple directions. You can get oil in the cooling passages, oil in the cylinder, under compression they can blow out external of the block, they can leak oil/coolant externally, water/coolant into the cylinder, cylinder gases into the cooling system, and so on and so forth.

Hey Trace,
I don't think you know what shadetree is!

This is shadetree!

Bocephus - sweet!!

Peter - I hear ya, but water out the exhaust port?

Leo -

LOL

Leo, time for a remanufactured engine. Or, a good used one, and then take you marine parts and use them with the new engine. Once an engine is that contaminated, you have to completely dis-assemble it. If you ran it in that condition for even a short time, the bottom end is done and will not last much longer. Don't waste any more time trying to salvage that engine.

Leo, I read back through your other thread "I Hate My Malibu" Seems that you run in brackish water. That has probably contributed significantly to the problems you have had and are having now. Exhaust headers are usually the first to go - but the salt attacks everything it comes in contact with. Cast iron engines are not made for brackish water use. I would look at installing a closed cooling system when you rebuild or replace this engine. If not you will be back in the same situation in 3 or 4 years.

you asked for it. see the 1/4" groove on the edge?

See the corrosion buildup in the lower left of the picture? That is not good. Flush your engine longer. What happened there is very common and is caused by the dissimilar metals. That would be called electrolysis. Might want to check into some sacraficial anodes to help with the corrosion. How much crap is in the blocks cooling passages?

If you have not removed the other head now would be a good time too. What does the engine block look like right below that cylinder head leak?

Do you have any idea how long the engine was run with water in the oil? No one is going to make fun of you if you did run it for a long time, but it would help answer what needs to be done with the bottom end. You also need to find where the gasket leaked into the oiling system of the engine or there may still be another problem. Also how much water drained out of the oil pan when you pulled the drain plug/cap?

I am not sure how long we ran the boat with oil/water mixture. Obviously it wasnt since the last time we changed the oil. I have checked the oil normally and have not see the milky oil till this summer. We only took it out on the lake 3 times this summer. I did not check the oil until we had the problem, my mistake I know.

About a quart of water drained from the oil.

Everything below it looks pretty good with some minor rusting. We flush the boat a good 3-5 minutes after every trip. Our boat dealer still sold us this boat after knowing we would be riding in brackish water. She didnt suggest or offer the closed cooling system. She also sold us a steel trailer when we insisted on galvanzied. She told us they didnt make galvanized for ski boats. We were gullible. Boat mates just told us they were offering them on malibus when we bought ours. I guess we should have done more research and not have bought from the only ski boat dealer in our part of louisiana. Plus we were new to the ski boat world. Guess she saw us coming. This time we will be more prepared when we buy a new boat this summer.

Ok that is A LOT of water. At this point with the corrosion and all it would be a good idea to at least yank the block and inspect the lower bearings. You can just pull the pan and remove a couple of rod bearings and look at the thrust bearing along with the crank bearings and get an idea what needs to be done.

So how do the cylinder walls look? Are there any scored lines in them? You will have to turn the engine over to inspect them all at the pistons lowest point. The engine block needs to be flushed out to remove as much corrosion as possible and it may very be a good time to go in and reseal the bottom end. Freshing up the bearings can never hurt either. The engine block itself is very thick and can stand to flake off quite a bit before it is garbage. Unless there is a problem with the block it will be cheaper to reuse it. Marine engines are not cheap.

The cylinder walls are smooth.

Thanks for the pic. I agree with Peter on all points. If you're going so far as to pull bearing caps to inspect, though, IMO just go ahead and rebuild it. It really isn't much more work from where you'll be at that point, it will be bulletproof when you're done, and will add resale rather than take away when you do sell it.

Since the heads are going to need serious attention too, I suggest shopping around for a rebuilt long block. Marinizing a long block isn't a big deal - just some freeze plugs and such.

I also have to give props on your understanding and initiative with this project at your age.

Thanks for the pic. I agree with Peter on all points. If you're going so far as to pull bearing caps to inspect, though, IMO just go ahead and rebuild it. It really isn't much more work from where you'll be at that point, it will be bulletproof when you're done, and will add resale rather than take away when you do sell it.

Since the heads are going to need serious attention too, I suggest shopping around for a rebuilt long block. Marinizing a long block isn't a big deal - just some freeze plugs and such.

I also have to give props on your understanding and initiative with this project at your age.

Peter
What dissimilar metals are you refering to? Does this engine have alum. heads?

There is a lot more to marine engines than just freeze plugs. For starters they are 4 bolt mains. Heavier duty cranks, along with different camshafts. The fuel injection will never run right without the right camshaft. The compression ratios are higher than in a car/truck. Ever notice how a boat motor makes close to 1/4 more power?

Unless there is something wrong, rebuild what you have. Not only will you save a ton of money, but it will run right. It may not need to be rebuilt anyhow, just cleaned up and inspected.

Brad, correct! In Leo's first two pictures you can cleary see they are aluminum.

Yes they are aluminum. I just had them welded and machined. I have been told that this is a normal process on aluminum heads.

I may be young, but my friend from Texas A&M is a 37 yr old PHD student who has worked on over 20 ski boats. He owns 5 himself.

What I am confused about is why this cylinder didn't test bad on a compression test.

Good point on the cam/EFI issue, but there are plenty of people running a LOT of horsepower thru 2-bolt mains with no problem.

It definitely should have failed compression in that cylinder.

and uh, good luck with the aggie. ;) Hook 'em Horns! (UT/BSME '97)

That's your problem right there, your friend is a PHD student...

Hey Leo, if you can't get your boat fixed soon you are welcome to head up the interstate to Hattiesburg and ride with me anytime. We ride late afternoon on the weekdays and mornings on the weekend, the water is not the best, but better than sitting and looking at a broken boat. Oh.. and it looks like somebody spilled a Wendy's frosty in your engine... mmmm frosty.
Later
Tiffany