Why does everyone care ......

..... if someone is wearing a vest or not? I mean it's not you, so why do you care?

It's funny to me that everyone on this thread http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/509085.html?1191880073 is talking smack about this kid not wearing vest, but how many of you wear a Non CGA vest? What's the difference?

FYI I think riding without a vest is not cool, but who am I to talk cause I wear a Non CGA vest......Right?

How about you start sporting a CGA approved vest!

right on ant... people are gonna do both regardless

Same argument as the motorcycle helmet,
some people cant think clearly for themselves,
that being said, why not let Darwin take over?

Because there are other people who have to search the bottom of the lake for you, or pull you back in the boat, and it ruins their day and the parents and grandparents.

bug, are you serious?

(Message edited by dakid on October 08, 2007)

Yeah, who cares if he wants to ride without a vest. When he dies because of it, it doesn't effect me....

...just like the guy on Folsom who let his kid teak surf all day with no life jacket. The kid drowned, and then he won an $800,000 judgement against the boat manufacturer for not clearly stating that exhaust fumes from a boat don't magically vanish into the unknown.

Now all new boats get the added cost and reduced horsepower of catalytic converters.

Yayyyy for no life jackets!

why does everyone care.............. what the hell energy drink you like. its hilarious that people think its part of wakeboarding or something.

"..... if someone is wearing a vest or not? I mean it's not you, so why do you care? "If you're an adult with kids who wakeboard the answer is obvious.

someone post the can of worms pic

I think the main reason is that people worry, and for good reason, that if a pro or other rider is seen by a large number of people riding without a vest, a certain percentage of those people will falsely assume that it is safe to do so. Younger riders are especially susceptible to this influence. I see people on this discussion board on almost a daily basis spouting incorrect information about the life vest issue and, again, a certain percentage of the people listening to those misinformed riders will take that information as fact and will ride without a vest or with an insufficient vest and falsely believe that they are safe. That's the only problem I have with it.

In a perfect world where everyone has perfect information and are fully aware of the risks they are taking, I would not have a problem with them riding with whatever they want for flotation. Unfortunately, a very large percentage of those riding without a vest or with a non-CGA vest are not fully aware of the risk they are taking.

Put it this way. If you were in a pet shop and overheard an employee explaining to the buyer of a new puppy that they should always roll up the windows in the car if they leave the puppy unattended for an extended period of time on a hot day in order to keep the heat out, you would care that this person is being misinformed at the peril of his new puppy.

Also, keep in mind that when you ride without a vest or with insufficient flotation, it does affect other people. The boat crew that was pulling Corey Kraut on his last ride was affected forever and I don't think it was in a positive way. So, in a way, it's very selfish to have the attitude that you're the only one it affects (I'm certainly not implying that Corey had that attitude) unless you're riding behind one of those unmanned jet ski things.

You should care.......we all should. Why? Because everytime there's a wakeboard-related drowning in the media it tarnishes the reputation of the sport. That leads to more restrictions, higher insurance rates, etc.

If you want wakeboarding to be around for a long time and want people to respect the sport, we should try to maintain a good safety record.

I'm curious to see if everyone that has an issue with wakeboarding without a vest feels the same way about driving without a seat belt.

Thread over, thanks Dave!

DAVE W HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD! Just like everything else the dumb ones cost everyone!

Its simple.

I care.

I dont want to see my friends die!

Elizabeth, seriously. Do you guys chastise people this much for not wearing seat belts, or not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle? Both of those things are FAR more dangerous than not wearing a vest. Wakeboarding has been around for 20 years. People have been doing it without vests just as long. In that time, to my knowledge, one person has died from not wearing a vest and sinking. Those one in a million odds are still more than enough to convince me to wear a vest (along with the slap of the water hurting like hell on bare skin), but I can understand--even if I don't agree--with people taking the risk to ride without a vest. NO ONE riding without a vest is under the impression that they are as safe or safer than they would be with a vest, but they still CHOOSE to do it any way. For whatever reason, the (slight) increase in risk is worth it to them. Let it go. Teach your kids how to be safe and let others teach their kids however they damn well please.

This issue always cracks me up. Hey Danny, do a 1260, but make sure you're wearing a vest. Oh, okay, that's much safer now. We ask these guys to push our sport at GREAT risk to themselves, but when they don't wear a vest, then that's too far. I'd be WAY more concerned about my kid doing a rail transfer he has no business trying after seeing a professional video.

hahahahahaaha

this thread is dumber than the malibu tower is ugly..

seems to me threads here just keep getting more and more far fetched....

Many of you are soooooo missing the point. This has nothing to do with going vestless being more or less dangerous than wearing a seatbelt or any other activity. It has to do with whether or not the people partaking in this activity are aware of the risks. It's as simple as that.

I'm not too worried about the seatbelt issue because I think the public is 99% educated on that one. I put the percentage of education on the risks of not wearing a life vest at around 60% an the risks of only wearing a non-CGA vest at around 30%. I'm totally ball-parking those only based on my experience in this industry for more than 10 years.

The lack of education is what scares me most.

i didn't really want to get into this arguement but i thought id put out that two riders whove landed nearly impossible tricks were not wearing vests when they did these tricks

if you dont know who im talking about the it was parks with the 1080 and then chade with the double back indy

David Williams, I agree with you in one sense. I do not believe all young riders realize a non-CGA vest is not as safe as a CGA one, so that's a major issue. However, you'd have to be a complete moron to think you're as safe wearing no vest at all. If there are people riding vestless who believe that they're just as safe...well, let Darwinism go to work. I'm assuming 99% of riders know it's a greater risk to ride without a vest...I hope.

Dave W, are their other stories of vestless wakeboarders drowning? Not to discount one death--it was tragic and I feel for all those know knew Corey--but sinking/drowning has to be one of the lowest causes of wakeboarding fatality. I'd say you're at far greater risk every time you try a raley-based trick or hit a rail.

Dude why wouldn't you care ? I mean $h|t I don't personally know half the people people on WW that I talk to everyday but $h|t I also don't want to hear about anything bad happening to any of you guys . . . Don't be an ass

quote: 'i didn't really want to get into this arguement but i thought id put out that two riders whove landed nearly impossible tricks were not wearing vests when they did these tricks '

Yes, but at what cost? Influential people in the sport not wearing the proper gear is not a good thing to be happening. Maybe wearing a proper vest should be viewed in the same way as having to use proper safety equipment in racing cars, athletes not taking performance enhancing drugs etc. It may limit the performance slightly but it's making it safer for everyone to participate. Using the logic quoted above you can't really say that Marion Jones benefitted the world of athletics by posting better times than her competitors when she was on performance enhancing drugs. Hell, fill up a vest with helium and I'm sure that Parks/Rusty/whoever could hit a 2160 - but does it really benefit anyone?

I for one have been very grateful for my proper vest on 2 or 3 occasions, ie a crash that makes you dizzy and disorientated and you're glad you don't have to worry about swimming to the surface.

I think the main point here was.. if you are wearing a non CGA vest, what right do you have to judge someone for not wearing a vest at all?

For the record, I have a CGA vest and I don't understand why anyone wouldn't wear one.

Yes, there have been many drownings of people without vests and I can think of at least two of people with non-CGA vests that were found at the bottom of the lake. These are all direct experience, so I shudder to think what the real numbers are.

One case involved a search and rescue guy with all his search and rescue buddies in the boat. They were not able to get back to him fast enough before he sank. After a search, they found him in eight feet of water with his non-CGA vest on. I spoke with his widow after the fact to get these details.

Sadly, a large percentage of wakeboarders would be surprised to hear that story and probably think something like that isn't possible.

at the beginning of the season I blew out my eardrum and couldn't see straight swim straight or even tell where the hell I was if I wasn't wearing my CGA vest I'm sure I would've drowned because it was just my wife and i out there it's just not worth it imo

(Message edited by lovin_the_wake on October 08, 2007)

(Message edited by lovin_the_wake on October 08, 2007)

This is easy......I don't care what you wear, unless you're on -my- boat....Then you wear some kind of vest or you watch.....If I'm on your boat? I'm just happy to be gettin' pulls....

As far as the younger riders not being fully informed? Isn't that what parents are for? To make SURE the kiddies are informed, or MAKE SURE they wear what you feel is right?

When my girfriend's kids are ready to go riding with pals -and- without me, you can bet your butt they'll be wearing what we deem is ok for them, or they'll be stayin' home......

---

quote:

By Elizabeth (lizzyb) on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 7:18 pm:

I think the main point here was.. if you are wearing a non CGA vest, what right do you have to judge someone for not wearing a vest at all?

---

uh, i hope you know there's a big difference between having a non-cga vest on and no vest at all.

if you don't see the difference, please leave the discussion now.

Good points all, but again I'm not saying don't wear one. I'm saying who are you to judge someone not wearing a vest if you yourself only wear a NON-CGA VEST?!

Dave ~ I read the story you're talking about here on WW a year or so ago and it got me thinking. Hell I even bought a CGA vest after a really hard fall at Canyon and was face down for 20 seconds before my buddies boat came back and got me.

Even after all that I still choose to wear a Non CGA vest. It's my choice as it is for everyone who wears none at all.

Joe ~ I agree with you 100% It's the parents responsibility to educate their children.

Umali ~ What is the difference? A NON-CGA vest is not going to save your life. I know you had a A-10 before. In that vest if you let all the air out of your lungs, you sink! The Vapor vest we wear are some of the best Non-CGA vest for flotation, but still will not save your life in a life or death situation.

I think what Dave W said is so true. You get a false sense of security in a Non-CGA vest.

Word

yes, i'm aware that a non-cga isn't going to save your life if knocked out in a face down situation. though if injured but conscious, a non-cga vest can help you stay afloat.

my buddy broke his leg (compound fractures of both the tibia AND fibula) trying a crow. he was wearing a non-cga. had he not been wearing the vest, a broken leg could have been the least that happened that day.

if you tell me that there's no difference between wearing a non-cga vest and no vest at all, then i would ask, why would you even wear a vest at all?

haha joe I did that too on the same trick and I was super happy I had CGA on. I am certain I wouldn't have been nearly as calm if I was wearing a non-CGA. I had switched from a non-CGA just a couple months prior.

That being said, wear whatever you want, but behind my boat you are riding with a vest.

Well two reasons. One I'm lazy and my Vapor vest floats me pretty well and two cause it gives me a false sense of security.

To really answer your question, I don't know.

This is a topic I struggle with every year with my son. As a competive rider he is dug in that it impedes his riding in competions and while I agree, I struggle with him not using a CGA. We have agreed that he will wear a CGA vest when free riding and I agreed to let him use his Comp vest in contests (at least in somewhat controlled conditions) He has seen a good friend get knocked out and floating face down wearing a CGA vest, we had to jump in and pull him out, If not for the vest we would have lost him.

y calder billhardt (longlakerider) on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 6:48 pm: Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
i didn't really want to get into this arguement but i thought id put out that two riders whove landed nearly impossible tricks were not wearing vests when they did these tricks

if you dont know who im talking about the it was parks with the 1080 and then chade with the double back indy

Maybe we should all ditch our vests & start riding w/ capes...I mean since Superman can stop bullets & fly around the world & shat.

Its like having insurance on your boat...its better to have it & not need it, than need it & not have it.

Great points by all........however, on the "parents are responsible" issue, we're assuming these "parents" are responsible themselves. I teach in an area where many of the kids are lucky if they have even one parent at home, let alone care for what they're doing! Off subject a little, but as a father of three, I hate when people act as if kids won't do anything wrong because their parents "raised them right".....I bet everyone here has taken a risk that could have gone bad at some point.....and when it didn't, maybe it was luck.....and IF it did, then it's all of a sudden the parents fault? Regardless of how hard you try and teach kids to be safe and do the right things, you can't be there every second, and each one has a mind of their own. (sorry, just bugs me)

My comment on the vest subject has always been to each his own......but I've asked it before, could you still do the same tricks as you could now, wearing either a Non-CGA vs. a CGA vest vs. no vest at all? (I'm not good enough to know...)

Would the top ten riders in the world not still be the top ten riders if everyone wore CGA vests?

(Message edited by kidrik on October 08, 2007)

I wish people would wear a vest for selfish reasons, I don't want to hear about another rider dying. It makes me sad. F them for dying, just spare my emotions.

Aside from Cordell I know of one person drowning from not wearing a vest. My cousin tried very hard to find his bro, but he sank too fast and it destroyed one family and ruined wakeboarding for about 4 others. To each his own, have fun when you're dead.

Hey non approved is better than none....
My Baller vest is non approved but seems to have more float then approved ones??
(law enforcement also counted it as approved, then again he told me to pull over, when we were stopped for a down rider and the boat was off, 20 feet from the mountains edge...lol...clueless, looking for duis)

Everyone on my boat rides with a CGA vest...

Except me. I wear my old O'Brien Slalom Comp Vest. Because I love it.

Why you ask? Because I want to, it is my choice.

Sometimes guys who ride with me ask to wear it, cause it is wicked comfy and also looks very cool. I say nope, wear the CGA vest or you don't ride. Is that fair? No. But what in life is fair.

Is it smart? Umm, nope, not really? But where do you draw the line? Maybe just riding around in a bubble is safer.

I am also a cop, and I don't wear my body armor unless I am actually on a Raid. Is that the safest thing? Nope.

Life is not safe.

I think a non coast guard approved vest will save your life. It will keep you afloat if your knocked out. With-out one you will be under water and gone. The boat should be able to get back to you quickly and at least be-able to get you on board to assist you.

I tried on the Oneil Law CGA vest a couple of weeks ago, and it's awesome. It has the freedom of movement like a comp. vest and the protection of a CGA.

Just thought I'd add something positive to this thread.

Steve (Whirli 7) go back and read the posts by Dave Williams

Steve, I don't think your statement is true. IF you read through the threads, you will see that A non CGA vest does not always keep you afloat if you are knocked out.

NEW INVENTION: A super slim vest with a few built in CO2 cartridges that deploy after reaching a depth of 5 feet giving you that extra needed floatation in case of emergency! I know the technology exists, might be kind of expensive though.

Elizabeth, please dont argue with jeff , to me he does not respect you ( by cursing) nor does he respect the site ( by cursing). there is an old saying " better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it".

I bet if we wait 3 days and post a new thread about the same topic, lots of monkeys on here will forget they just argued about it a few days ago and start it up all again. (I know, thats a hasty conclusion, im just basing it off of the 3 or 4 times ive seen it come up lately) This thread really shows the intelligence that is portrayed on our "community".

I could care less what a grown adult chooses to do unless it affects me. By not wearing a CGA vest or no vest at all, you put the responsibility of your safety on the government. They feel it is their job to protect people who dont or cant protect themselves, and they do this with more regulation. More regulation is the last thing this sport needs, IMO...

I have worn both and have sold both. Kids that come ride don't care what vest they wear. They just want to look cool whether they are wearing a riding jersey, a nonCGA vest or nothing. I won't even sell a young kid a NON CGA vest without a parent present and that never happens because as soon as the parent realizes that its nonCGA, they aren't going to buy it for them.

I understand the risk I am taking by wearing a nonCGA. I take full responsibility for it and I know the people on my boat understand what I am wearing. It's a choice we all make.

Kalen, why does someone who holds a different opinion than you deserve the moniker "Monkey"?

Why does a discussion of differing points of view warrant an (infered) negative conclusion that this online community lacks intelligence?

I am interested to know why you feel that way.

(Message edited by seanmcd on October 09, 2007)

Yesterday I was drinking a beer...while riding with no jacket...without a helmet...and my driver was performing a textbook powerturn infront of a canoe full of nuns, it was pretty gnar.

I hate to call him out like this, but everybody read Steve (Whirli_7)'s post. It illustrates the exact lack of education that I was referring to in my post. Facts that counter his statement are available about five inches from where he posted (my last post and several others), yet for whatever reason he still posted inaccurate information that, if listened to, will endanger lives.

I got slammed last time I said this, so here it goes again "I wouldn't be caught dead wearing a life vest." Now you could read this anyway you want, but I wear a vest at all times wakeboarding.

i used to sell wakevests. the mfcts, told us that they had the same amount of floatation in them to be approved, but they will roll you over on your stomach, thats why they aren't. unless you have a plate strapped to your waist, not sure how you would sink. but david your right, it has been 3-4 years since I sold them so maybe they have been changed.

Pretty simple test--put your vest on, hop in the water and blow out all the air in your lungs you possible can to the point your going to pass out....I have yet to find a NCGA that will keep my head above water when I do that. But, that's probably just me. Do what you want, but please don't let your choices interfere with my activities. Out....

Maybe back then Steve, but the ones I have tried will allow you to sink if you let all the air out of your lungs.

To be honest, it amazes me that there have not been more fatalities considering how many here use NCGA and from what I have seen out on the lakes.

Hey it could be worse remember the "life belts" back in the day? What were we thinking?

Who is anyone to judge someone for what they deem acceptable?

To make a broad generalization in either direction is wrong.

To misinform people about the safety of boarding w/o a vest is incredibly irresponsible.

To state that if you dont wear a vest and get knocked out you will sink is incorrect as well (there are a number of other factors that have to play out in order to sink). not saying that it won't happen just saying what is true that it COULD happen but is not a "for sure".

To post a thread with un-vested riders is not an issue IMO. To announce in a discussion that it is ok to ride w/o a vest is a completly different story.

All that said, no-one rides behind our boat without a cga on regardless of what you are doing and it is legal here to ride w/o a vest.

What you do behind your boat, I do not care, legal or illegal.

Murray's new 08 Vest from Jet Pilot is going to be as thin as a comp vest, but be CGA, so I think in the years to come we will see a lot of CGA vest that are nice and thin, but have a CGA rating, I would think with all the technology of today, we should be able to have a thin cumfy SAFE CGA vest.

I encourage everybody who owns a vest (CGA or non-CGA) to read the warning on the inside. I'm betting most have not. Here is the text that goes inside the non-CGA vests in our industry...

WARNING
THIS GARMENT IS NOT A LIFE JACKET - READ BEFORE USE
This jacket is not approved by the U.S. Coast Guard, Canadian Department of Transport, or any other agency making official approvals of flotation devices. NO EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES ARE MADE CONCERNING ITS USE OR MERCHANTABILITY.

It is designed for free movement of tournament water skiers/wakeboarders who find standard jackets with adequate flotation too bulky.

This jacket cannot be considered a safety vest or life preserver. It should be worn only by an experienced water skier or wakeboarder engaged in competitive tournaments sanctioned by American Water ski Association, Canadian Water Ski Association, World Water Ski Union, and only these events, where safety factors such as patrol boats and pick up boats are actively present, and the skier/rider is under constant observation.

This jacket should not be worn by anyone who cannot swim. The buoyancy factor and it's distribution is not sufficient to float a conscious or unconscious person in a “Face out of water position”.

Before each use, the wearer should have this jacket approved by the tournament official responsible for equipment inspection. However, even in such sanctioned tournaments injury or drowning could occur while wearing this jacket. This jacket must not be worn by water skiers/wakeboarders or others under any other circumstances or conditions than those above described.

Nothing like the old days...

Just my $.02 but wakeboarding is not worth your life. If you're not wearing a life jacket to look cool, you're really not. I loved the new ad in WBM with the dead guy floating. The good news is that your body will float after 3 days of being submerged!

I wear a CGA vest when i'm trying something new for the obvious reasons, but when doing stuff i normally do I use a non CGA. Its the riders choice.

We only care if you have a CGA vest on if you're holding the truck keys.......
Do what you're comfortable with- to each thier own
Ride on

Spencer, professional wakeboarder Corey Kraut was doing a 180 when he went down.

I can't believe I just read this whole thing! Time for my nap now. " It's the peoples choice to make an educated decision".

John, nice shorts in the trick ski pic.

i think this is the point dave and several others made, theres some bad info out there. i saw this off of whiskey miltia today.it says even if you cant get up half the time it will still save your life. not only shouldnt beginners be wearing comp vest but its an out right false statement.
Rip Curl Core Stealth Wake Vest:

Just because your dad bought an X-Star doesn't make you Parks Bonifay. Before you try to carve your first heelside turn, protect yourself with the Rip Curl Stealth Wake Vest. This baby's low profile makes for smooth, unobtrusive handle passes and a style that kinda looks like Batman's armor. If you're riding in cooler water, the Core Stealth vest's neoprene adds a bit of warmth. The inner belt secures this vest in place—you may tear a rotator cuff when you get your ass handed to you on a 180 attempt, but at least your vest will stay put. Note: Even though this vest gives you a little extra float on the lake, it is NOT a Coast Guard approved vest.

Bottom Line:
Even if you can't get up half the time, stay alive when you're wearing the Core Stealth Vest.

taken from whiskey miltia today

can't believe I just read this whole thing! Time for my nap now. " It's the peoples choice to make an educated decision".

The problem is the lack of education....

Let'em drown, that means one less person on the water sharing my line.

OUCH Rich! Pretty harsh.

sometimes i dont wear a vest, about 90% of the time i do. but i realize what i'm doing & that's the important thing. plus there's always 5+ people in the boat