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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through October 15, 2006

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Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-03-2006, 6:23 PM Reply   
Have posted a few times about head unit and amp problems supplying the proper amount of power to the Rubi's. Everyone's advice was greatly appreciated. I did everything I could from the advice given but still had to take the boat to an installer. Here's the problem. Several people here said that I had to boost the voltage from the head unit up from the 2 volts. Also a couple of installers locally said the same thing. The installer I used came highly recommended and he said I did not need the pre amp or line driver to boost the voltage, not sure why. Picked up the boat today and he found the front RCA outputs bad on the head unit, so he ran them off the rear. It didn't sound any different.

Anyone with Rubicons, NVS or Wetsounds, how loud are your speakers when riding 70-75 feet? I keep hearing that they are concert sound and you can not have them cranked. If that's the case, I still have problems. Sorry for the lenghty post.
Old     (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-03-2006, 6:55 PM Reply   
I would not say concert sound but they are definitely loud and you can hear word for word and all the music with it. Very loud and clear compared to others I have heard. Have not heard NVS or WetSounds behind a boat, but I am sure they are all fairly similar.
Sorry I wish I knew more about stereos and I would help you out....
Good luck
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-03-2006, 7:06 PM Reply   
Thanks Diggs. I have only seen posts and talked to a few people about sound quality and volume on the top 3 pro audio manufacturer's, but had never heard any. I never had an opportunity too. Maybe I'm expecting too much. I know next to nothing about stereo's myself, but have read a lot and called a lot of tech support. Each one blames the other except for Skylon, they weren't much help at all. The thing that keeps confusing me the most is the head unit voltage output and why I keep getting conflicting information.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-03-2006, 7:07 PM Reply   
NVS 1010's on fleamrket audiobahn amps (maybe 600 RMS to each pod) screamed....they would get loud enough to where you would want to turn them down sometimes. Wetsound Pro 80's are loud but not as loud as the NVS IMO, they are also a little (but noticably) brighter. But better sound dispersion, but definately loud enough to hear with roughly 150 rms to each pod (4).

I've been doing alot of research on amps lately. I think your using hifonics...based on what I found they are a very good amp for the money. But do you have acess to a better quality amp you could try? Maybe your installer has one?

Kenwood will tell you that you don't need a line driver b/c according to them output voltage is not an issue if the amp is set correctly. I'm a non believer in that theroy, but I understood what they were saying.

Nothing I've heard is "concert sound" in order to get that you'd need to match the horns up with 15 inch drivers.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-03-2006, 7:09 PM Reply   
randy, try reseraching on caraudioforum.com or carstereoonline.com, bcae1.com is also good.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-03-2006, 7:20 PM Reply   
Thanks for the links Adam. The installer sold mostly JL Audio amps with a few Kicker amps. He was willing to sell one, but didn't have a used one to demo in the boat. I asked him about Zapco and he told me that the head designer engineer or founder of Zapco went to JL Audio. Can't remember which. He also said that the amp I'm using put out 250 watts @ 2 channel and 500 watts @ 2 channel when it reached 2 ohms. Since I'm really green, I'm not sure what that meant.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-03-2006, 7:58 PM Reply   
your skylon speaekers are 3ohm, I think??

250x2 into 4ohms and 500x2 into 2 ohms. your getting somehwere in the middle. The reason I say try a differnt amp is b/c diffent amps will haev different dampening (ability of the amp to control the driver), and s/n ratio which may help clear up the sound and result in you being able to turn them up louder. Depending on what the stats on yoru current amp are it may not even be an audible difference.

In about a week I'm going to be testing a JL 300/2 against my audiobahn amp and see what the differnces are...maybe this test would help you too? Hifoncis is better than audiobahn but might be able to tell if the JL's are worth the extra coin. The JL is 150x2 while th eaudiobahn claims 200x2, from what I've read it's overrated
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-03-2006, 8:00 PM Reply   
Alot of people on car audio sites claim your paying alot for the JL name. they are high quality, good sound, but for the money there is alot better. But they've also bench tested JL amps that have produced considerable amount mroe power than rated. 500/1 pushing closer to 650 RMS. JL's haev regulated power supplies and will push the same power from 11-14.4 volts.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-03-2006, 8:03 PM Reply   
They are 3 ohms and that makes sense. So I should be getting around 375 watts to each then. The installer wanted to sell me that amp if I'm not mistaken for my boat speakers. Said it was around $499 dollars. Head unit now where the gain is at is maxed at 35 on the control with no noticeable distortion.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-03-2006, 8:09 PM Reply   
Let me know how that JL amp works out for you. I may need to look into installing one myself.
Old     (clubmyke)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-03-2006, 10:44 PM Reply   
randy,

a couple of things i noticed... chances are your installer is not to familiar with the clarion head unit...there have been alot of post on the benefits of adding a line driver to these units.. unless he does has alot of experience (chances are the front outputs were burnt out is because the signal was being split) i have never read a thread saying that adding a line driver was subtractive.. in fact everyone who has done has been surprised with the addition..

amp selection will depend on which design you deceide to go with... coaxial designs (nvs or wetsounds) will require less power than the seperate driver designs..

i would suggest listening to both designs (either manufacture, though the wetsounds are a smige brighter imo...ymmv)... both will be loud out to the rider however, the coaxial designs will be much louder in the boat due to "compromized" throat design.. the seperate hcld drivers get more out to rider and less in the boat in that regards..

also, dont forget about zapco with the symbilink volume control and built in line driver....great gear and reliable..robert zeff who was the founding designer of zapco went to arc audio (another great amp)..



(Message edited by clubmyke on October 03, 2006)
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-03-2006, 11:04 PM Reply   
Randy,

Why aren't you telling us what amp you have? Do you not know? Without telling us all the details it's like me posting a question like, "How quick should my truck be?" without mentioning which motor I have. Obviously the difference between a 4.3L V6 and a 6.0L V8 is pretty significant, same analogy applies to your situation with respect to the amp you are running. If you are running off an the 10 watt Clarion head unit you will not get concert level sound.

Advice is only as good as the input from which it was derived at best.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-04-2006, 2:57 AM Reply   
clubmyke, the installer I used is an authorized Clarion dealer. I pulled that off of their website. Not sure where he's going with that. Guess he also gave me some mis information on the founder of Zapco.

Mikeski, forgot to list the amp in this thread, but did in another. It is a Hifonics Zues ZXi1006,

ZXi 1006 1000-Watt A/B-Class
2 x 250-Watts RMS @ 4-Ohms
2 x 500-Watts RMS @ 2-Ohms
1 x 1000-Watts RMS @ 4-Ohms

Zeus Amplifier Highlights

Crossover And Switching For Channels 1 & 2:
Variable 12dB Octave Hi-Pass
Variable 24dB Octave Low-Pass
±18dB Bass Boost at 45Hz
Crossover and Switching For Channels 3 & 4:
Variable 12dB Octave Hi-Pass
Variable 24dB Octave Low-Pass
±18dB Bass Boost at 45Hz
Inputs and Diagnostics:
Variable Input Level Control
Power and Diagnostics LEDs
DC Short Circuit Protection
Over-Load Protection
Connector Types:
Unbalanced Inputs (RCA’s)
Full-Range Line Outputs (RCA’s)
Molded 4-Gauge Power Inputs
Molded 10-Gauge Speaker Outputs
Crossover and Switching for Mono Amplifier:
Variable 24dB Low-Pass
24dB Fixed Subsonic Filter
45Hz Bass EQ Bass Boost
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-04-2006, 6:49 AM Reply   
Randy, I thought you had a kenwood HU, not clarion.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-04-2006, 6:59 AM Reply   
Adam, Kenwood head unit and a Clarion EQS746 pre amp.
Old     (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-04-2006, 1:53 PM Reply   
The ZXI1006 is MORE than enough power. Those numbers are also the rating at 12 volts. That amp can peak at 2000 watts. Is the input control in the 12 noon position? The cross over switch set to full? I am only asking because maybe the amp is configured wrong? You really need to do a process of equipment elimination to source what is wrong.

I would connect the speakers to a AMP'd source I know is working and can produce at a 2 ohm load. If they sound good and are not blown, I would then use that sources RCA's to power your AMP with the speakers connected now through your AMP. If all is still well, I would then connect the RCA's through the pre-amp. If all is still well, then you know it's an HU issue. If any of my channels were out on my HU I would replace it regardless. You may also have a bad set of RCA's does one side sound better than the other?
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-04-2006, 3:46 PM Reply   
Dave, input is set to 12 and cross over to full. Both sides sound the same. Speakers do not sound blown. I believe the gain needs to be adjusted. RCA's are good. One channel on the head unit is bad. Let the dealer know and of course that was met with resistance.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-04-2006, 4:00 PM Reply   
Randy,

I sometimes grab my IPOD and plug is directly into the amp. If the amps gains are up it should play at nearly full volume. If it does then this isolates your issue to before the amp, if it does not play then your issues are amp or wiring. As systems grow so does the potential for problems. This is along the same advice as David's above but the Ipod test is sometimes the easiest if you have access to your RCA's. Ohming out your speakers is also a good way to investigate what's going on with your system.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-04-2006, 5:33 PM Reply   
Mikeski, thanks for the tip. I will definitely test the amp that way. With everyone's advice, I should be able to narrow down the problem.
Old     (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-04-2006, 5:42 PM Reply   
Excellent call on using the Ipod or mp3 players headphone jack to the AMP's RCA's. This set up can be used for the line driver testing too. Of course, assuming you have the cable, if not they are available for less than 20 bucks at best buy, radio shack, etc... (3.5mm Headphone plug to male RCA's) You are going to have to eliminate each piece in your set up a step at a time to find the issue. I know it's a pain....NO PAIN, NO GAIN (I could not resist that, sorry)
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       10-08-2006, 6:15 PM Reply   
Randy, I tested the JL amp this weekend. I'm keeping the audiobahn amp in the boat and returning the JL.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-09-2006, 2:59 AM Reply   
Thanks Adam. My amp is fine also. Used mikeski's trick of using the ipod to test everything.
Old     (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-09-2006, 10:26 AM Reply   
Randy, Let us know where the issue is or was. This type of information is useful.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-09-2006, 10:38 AM Reply   
david, front RCA outputs on the head unit have an internal grounding problem, you can hear the music with a lot of static and it sounds really low and cheesy without any bass. If you switch it to the rear outputs, everything is fine but still lacks total volume. The installer I took it to told me I didn't need the pre amp but he was ticked off because he sells Clarion and told me it was illegal for the guy to sell it on eBay that I bought it from for half price so he bypassed it. He said the voltage did not need to be increased. When I got the boat back home, I tested everything with the iPod starting at the amp and then put the pre amp back inline. I turned the master volume on the pre amp all the way down, turned the head unit volume to 3/4 and then put the amp gain to about 3/4. When turning up the master volume on the pre amp now those Rubi's are deafening at only half way. I adjusted the gain somewhat but it's still around 2/3-3/4. The boat is now at the dealer to have the head unit replaced since it's under warranty. I don't think I'll need the front RCA's, but since they went bad already, there is a chance for something else to go wrong. I had some other warranty issues, so now was a good time.
Old     (sea_ray_dave)      Join Date: Dec 2004       10-10-2006, 9:20 AM Reply   
Interesting about your installers comment that buying from ebay sellers is illegal. I do not think so unless the stuff is stolen. I thought it only voided warranty if you purchase on ebay from someone who is not an authorized reseller of a product. I know alot of refurbished and grey market gets passed off on eBay as new (that should be illegal in itself) Sounds like you are getting your system back in business soon!! Good call replacing the HU while it's under warranty.
Old     (dudeman)      Join Date: Mar 2005       10-10-2006, 9:33 AM Reply   
The installer said that Clarion does not authorize the sale of new equipment on eBay. Not sure about that, but he should have kept it in line to boost the voltage. Won't be going back there.

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