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Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-05-2016, 12:24 PM Reply   
I know that the main variables for pop will be wake size, how hard your cutting & your leg push. So I'm not talking about the beginner side of things. I can easily w2w even if I slow the boat down to 18mph and I can easily get into the wash part of the flats at regular speeds. I've only been riding 2 years and mostly just use my stock ballasts on my 23lsv while riding at a relatively slow speed (21.4mph) so I've been relatively happy with my jumps.

Then the other week I had an experienced rider on my boat that hasn't rode in a long time because he is here for school. He rode my exact setup (wake/line length/speed/even my board). it seemed like he was blasting into outer space compared to my jumps! He had at least a few feet on me and he would get far into the flats and not just the wash.

So I thought I would start a discussion about things that help pop, outside of the wake/cut/push. Here is what I have been thinking about:

1. Elbow position. Is it better to 'weld' your elbows to your sides and hold the handle in throughout the cut & lift off? I can imagine that coming into the wake and letting out the handle will rob you of some of that tension and pull?

2. Timing. I think I might be pushing off a tad early or late which is robbing me of some pop.

3. Now just pushing off the wake and locking the knees but pushing harder/faster. I figure the harder/faster I push going through the actual wake, the harder I'm going to be pushed back up?

So lets hear it!
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-05-2016, 1:44 PM Reply   
First and foremost. Two things above all else will make you better rider: Riding more often and riding harder when you are out there.

1. Elbow position: Not true at all. You see some riders do it, but that is more for spins. Also, the more cable I ride the more I tend to gather the handle at the wake (start with the handle further away). Just make sure you are pushing the handle down as you push with your legs.

2. Timing: Go by feel, not your eyes. You will have greater consistency by pushing back at the wake when you feel it pushing you. Your eyes are on the slightest delay.

3. Being stronger will always help. Box jump, etc will help tremendously. But back to number 2 you have to balance your push with the wake.

Honestly, my advice is superficial. And the internet is going to send you 100 directions. You need to go get a lesson. It will be the best money you have ever spent. Any decent coach will be able to solve pop problems in minutes that hours online will never do.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-05-2016, 1:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
First and foremost. Two things above all else will make you better rider: Riding more often and riding harder when you are out there.

1. Elbow position: Not true at all. You see some riders do it, but that is more for spins. Also, the more cable I ride the more I tend to gather the handle at the wake (start with the handle further away). Just make sure you are pushing the handle down as you push with your legs.

2. Timing: Go by feel, not your eyes. You will have greater consistency by pushing back at the wake when you feel it pushing you. Your eyes are on the slightest delay.

3. Being stronger will always help. Box jump, etc will help tremendously. But back to number 2 you have to balance your push with the wake.

Honestly, my advice is superficial. And the internet is going to send you 100 directions. You need to go get a lesson. It will be the best money you have ever spent. Any decent coach will be able to solve pop problems in minutes that hours online will never do.
Thanks for the advice man! It's always appreciated.

Honestly, I'm not opposed to getting a local coach but I never really see the reason for it because I'm just getting better by riding more and more. I don't feel 'stuck' at all. I definitely agree that riding more is the largest key and my main problems all stem from lack of time on water. I made the thread just to see peoples opinions so that I know what things to experiment with and what isn't worth my time.

Plus, my boat has been down for two weeks and I'm recovering from a rib injury so talking and thinking about wakeboarding helps the withdrawal

Quick question about the handle thing. So your saying youve started coming off the wake with your arms all the way out and then pulling them in while in the air (or pulling them in at the wake?)
Old     (on_wi)      Join Date: Feb 2013       10-06-2016, 7:48 AM Reply   
No doubt you could be progressing. But it is important to note that you could progress with poor form, which could hinder your progress further down the line. A coach could make sure you have the basics perfect before moving on to inverts/spin/etc.
If you don't want a coach pay attention to any and all opportunities to ride with other people. Video tape your buddy going huge and compare with a clip of yourself. Is he maintaining edge better, line tension different, balance, etc.? Look for opportunities with your local dealers to ride. Ronix had free rides with pros in the May or June this year. Take advantage of things like that.
Old     (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-06-2016, 10:23 AM Reply   
When it comes to coaching, the earlier, the better. Over the years, I can't tell you how many people have showed up at ski-school to learn a bankroll only to find that their wake jumps are nowhere they need to be for it.

When I leave the top of wake on anything thing where I am rightside up, my handle is pinned to me. By gathering the rope, I am talking about my arms being more relaxed on my approach.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       10-06-2016, 11:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboarder View Post
When it comes to coaching, the earlier, the better. Over the years, I can't tell you how many people have showed up at ski-school to learn a bankroll only to find that their wake jumps are nowhere they need to be for it.

When I leave the top of wake on anything thing where I am rightside up, my handle is pinned to me. By gathering the rope, I am talking about my arms being more relaxed on my approach.
Got it. So it sounds like I might have been onto something on 'welding' the elbows to your hips, but the point is it's most importan at the wake itself and not necessarily on the approach.

Can anyone recommend a good coach local to Phoenix? Like I said, I'm not necessarily against coaching, but we have no wake schools in the area and the coaches I have seen are all just self proclaimed couches as a side gig. (not necessarily a bad thing either, but I would rather not be taught by someone I am not confident in to have the correct skills and techniques).
Old     (YYCBoarder)      Join Date: Apr 2013       10-06-2016, 12:04 PM Reply   
+1 for lessons. A one day lesson probably won't do much but if you go to Orlando for a week your riding will change. I did the boarding school in the spring and made more progress this year than I have in 5 years. I think it's a combination of a ton of time on the water (3 sets a day) plus coaching.

I'm not the best boarder but have had a few epiphany's late in the season this year that have helped with pop and control. In the past I focused on the usual (progressive edge, stand tall,etc, etc, etc) You absolutely need those things but there are other factors at work. A buddy always says to me "think up instead of across" which didn't necessarily help but I'm starting to figure out what it does for him. Watch a few of David O'Caoimh videos and you'll see how when he hits the wake it looks like he stops going across and just goes straight up. His style is awesome.

The first thing I noticed (and made the biggest difference) is that I found that when I stand tall at the wake I'd lean towards the wake a bit (in the direction I'm travelling). Leaning back against the line or even a back away from the wake gives me more pop and less line tension. It's such a subtle difference and hard to even see in a video. I think it stops the board from breaking through the wake and instead it travels up with the wake instead of across. The guys that have great pop have their board almost vertical as soon as they go off the wake. If you're on learnwake watch the stalefish grab tutorial which shows this perfectly.

Second thing that helped me is focusing on keeping my hips forward as soon as I start my cut and maintaining the entire time. If you let your hips drift back behind your shoulders it's harder to get your hips forward when going off the wake (which everyone says is key.)

Another thing that helped me with with control (although not necessarily with pop) is cutting in with loose straight arms but as I go up the wake I'd pull the handle in. I found it gives less line tension.

I've experimented with actually sitting further down around the whitewash as I get to the wake (still with hips forward though) then really pushing off the top of the wake. My jumps aren't always consistent doing this but sometimes I get great pop. I'm guessing it just fixes other things I'm doing wrong. haha. I know most don't teach you to do this and lots of guys don't need to but it seems to do something for me.

You can try some of this but I think at the end of the day it's all about time on the water seeing what works for you. It seems like everything is just small amounts of progression that aren't noticeable day to day. I didn't realize how much better I am unless I think back to a year ago.

Sorry for the longwinded reply. haha

Last edited by YYCBoarder; 10-06-2016 at 12:07 PM.
Old     (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-31-2016, 8:44 PM Reply   
coaching makes a world of difference, a proper coach will teach you the form and fundamentals to allow faster and safer progression. Things like really dialing in your re-entry pops, inside out jumps and ollies help a lot to develop the correct timing and power you need off the wake. Number 1 problem I see is new riders always rushing to clear the wake before mastering the basic mechanics.
Old     (sambo13)      Join Date: Jun 2009       11-01-2016, 3:00 PM Reply   
I recently made a slight change to my riding style that I believe has doubled my pop. Rode yesterday and had friends who have been riding with me for 4+ years saying that I was going bigger than they had ever seen me go before, and that I was routinely putting 7 or 8 feet of air between my board and the water.

Note: this primarily applies to heelside jumps.

I simply sat my body farther back into my cut. Instead of just squatting my butt down toward the board, I made a point to over-emphasize the act of leaning back hard against the rope - really, and I mean REALLY - using my body to create leverage and dig the board in. At the same time, putting a bit more push on my back foot to further dig that edge in.

You may feel like you're creating plenty of line tension, but there's a very good chance that you're leaving a lot on the table. I know I certainly was. Hope this helps!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       12-06-2016, 11:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambo13 View Post
I recently made a slight change to my riding style that I believe has doubled my pop. Rode yesterday and had friends who have been riding with me for 4+ years saying that I was going bigger than they had ever seen me go before, and that I was routinely putting 7 or 8 feet of air between my board and the water.

Note: this primarily applies to heelside jumps.

I simply sat my body farther back into my cut. Instead of just squatting my butt down toward the board, I made a point to over-emphasize the act of leaning back hard against the rope - really, and I mean REALLY - using my body to create leverage and dig the board in. At the same time, putting a bit more push on my back foot to further dig that edge in.

You may feel like you're creating plenty of line tension, but there's a very good chance that you're leaving a lot on the table. I know I certainly was. Hope this helps!
I think your definitely onto something that pop and how hard your cutting have alot to do with each other. But a much harder cut also means I will be going much faster and further into the flats. At my current 65ft and 21.4mph I'm already going a little into the flats with only a decent cut.

I did do something this weekend that is slightly off topic but I believe is worth mentioning. I think my 21.4mph is already pretty slow compared to many of you guys. But last time I was out I slowed the boat down to around 19 mph and rode at that speed for a full set. After the initial stage of getting used to the need to ride more aggressively, I feel like I REALLY liked it and I think riding this way will help me progress my riding much faster. The #1 thing I noticed is that everything is ALOT less intimidating at that speed. I could do all my tricks still, but I just had to cut a little more aggressively. So I wasn't nervous to go bigger and practice my 180's going big and such.

I believe at the faster speed I was holding back my cut simply because I was scared to cut any harder. At the slower speed, I happily try to cut as hard as I can and I feel like I do have more pop. I'll have to take a video of both to compare and see if there is anything to it other than the 'feel'.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       12-06-2016, 1:47 PM Reply   
Couple of interesting points so far.

Timeline, have you done any edging drills? Disc 1 of The Book has some nice edging techniques that would probably help you build your edge as come in. Personally, I rode for about 2 years until I finally got the progressive edge down. those drills helped me get there.

Secondly, early on, I felt like I had to get way out in the flats, then turn my board 90* to boat and hold on for the dear life. Especially when we had a lighter crew. I wasn't building my edge so that it translated into vertical pop. By the time I got to the wake I was going 50 mph and sheer speed got me over the wake with no air whatsoever. I learned to cruise out in the flats..... wait...... then point my board at the boat but KEEP that board heading direction and slowly build line tension and speed into the wake.

Do some edging drills (for all edges, reg and switch) then start taking a more casual approach. Build your edge and stand tall.

Once I got my head wrapped around those 2 concepts, W2W became very easy.
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       12-06-2016, 2:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
Couple of interesting points so far.

Timeline, have you done any edging drills? Disc 1 of The Book has some nice edging techniques that would probably help you build your edge as come in. Personally, I rode for about 2 years until I finally got the progressive edge down. those drills helped me get there.

Secondly, early on, I felt like I had to get way out in the flats, then turn my board 90* to boat and hold on for the dear life. Especially when we had a lighter crew. I wasn't building my edge so that it translated into vertical pop. By the time I got to the wake I was going 50 mph and sheer speed got me over the wake with no air whatsoever. I learned to cruise out in the flats..... wait...... then point my board at the boat but KEEP that board heading direction and slowly build line tension and speed into the wake.

Do some edging drills (for all edges, reg and switch) then start taking a more casual approach. Build your edge and stand tall.

Once I got my head wrapped around those 2 concepts, W2W became very easy.
....Definitely past that...... Learned the progressive edge the hard way, through 100+ falls while learning the backroll haha.
Old     (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       12-06-2016, 7:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
But a much harder cut also means I will be going much faster and further into the flats. At my current 65ft and 21.4mph I'm already going a little into the flats with only a decent cut.
Just start out a little less wide, a little closer to the wake, if you don't want to go into the flats.
And if slowing down feels good, then why not! Get comfortable that way, and later speed up a little again.
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       12-07-2016, 10:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
....Definitely past that...... Learned the progressive edge the hard way, through 100+ falls while learning the backroll haha.
definitely didn't sound that way!
Old     (timelinex)      Join Date: Oct 2014       12-19-2016, 4:26 PM Reply   
I’ve done the progressive edge for a while now. Start at a 1 and lean back harder and harder until I’m at my 10 at the wake. This worked great and got me decent pop and a little bit into the flats. I think the main problem was that if I try to go even bigger, I couldn’t make my cut any harder than I already was. I thought it must have basically just been down to the limits of my personal strength. I did my cut exactly how LearnWake and many coaches teach it. Standing relatively tall (small bend at the knees) and leaning back against the rope while not changing any angles in my body (knees,hips, etc). Then standing tall at the wake while continuing the cut.

Like I said in my last post, this month I started to try riding at 19.2mph and experimenting a lot more. Well I just wanted to share something that I discovered this weekend to be a complete game changer for me. I’m still working on exactly how to describe it, but I’ll do my best and maybe someone else that is more experienced can refine my explanation.

To get insane pop, I now do the progressive edge to where I hit my previous 10, but I change my form slightly when I hit the white wash of the wake. I try to drop my ass a little back and my feet a little forward. I don’t know if that’s exactly what I do (hard to tell in the crappy video I got) but it’s what I feel like I do. It feels like I’m not leaning any harder back but rather repositioning the board to achieve a bigger angle with the water. Doing this seems to take the pressure I feel underneath the board from what used to feel like a 10, to a 20 comparatively. IMMENSELY more pressure.

The line tension and rise in the air scared the **** out of me a few times and I let go. But when I finally got the guts to hold on, I landed the biggest jumps I’ve ever done. MUCH higher and farther into the flats than ever before. They were on par with the guy’s jumps that I started this thread about. It feels like a vastly different type of jump and air then I have have been doing. at 19.2mph I was getting crazy pop and waaaaaay into the flats!

Maybe this all sounds dumb and ‘old news’ to most of you guys, but it was a crazy game changer for me. So I’m hoping maybe my description helps someone out there in my position.

Last edited by timelinex; 12-19-2016 at 4:29 PM.
Old     (YYCBoarder)      Join Date: Apr 2013       12-20-2016, 11:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
Iíve done the progressive edge for a while now. Start at a 1 and lean back harder and harder until Iím at my 10 at the wake. This worked great and got me decent pop and a little bit into the flats. I think the main problem was that if I try to go even bigger, I couldnít make my cut any harder than I already was. I thought it must have basically just been down to the limits of my personal strength. I did my cut exactly how LearnWake and many coaches teach it. Standing relatively tall (small bend at the knees) and leaning back against the rope while not changing any angles in my body (knees,hips, etc). Then standing tall at the wake while continuing the cut.

Like I said in my last post, this month I started to try riding at 19.2mph and experimenting a lot more. Well I just wanted to share something that I discovered this weekend to be a complete game changer for me. Iím still working on exactly how to describe it, but Iíll do my best and maybe someone else that is more experienced can refine my explanation.

To get insane pop, I now do the progressive edge to where I hit my previous 10, but I change my form slightly when I hit the white wash of the wake. I try to drop my ass a little back and my feet a little forward. I donít know if thatís exactly what I do (hard to tell in the crappy video I got) but itís what I feel like I do. It feels like Iím not leaning any harder back but rather repositioning the board to achieve a bigger angle with the water. Doing this seems to take the pressure I feel underneath the board from what used to feel like a 10, to a 20 comparatively. IMMENSELY more pressure.

The line tension and rise in the air scared the **** out of me a few times and I let go. But when I finally got the guts to hold on, I landed the biggest jumps Iíve ever done. MUCH higher and farther into the flats than ever before. They were on par with the guyís jumps that I started this thread about. It feels like a vastly different type of jump and air then I have have been doing. at 19.2mph I was getting crazy pop and waaaaaay into the flats!

Maybe this all sounds dumb and Ďold newsí to most of you guys, but it was a crazy game changer for me. So Iím hoping maybe my description helps someone out there in my position.
This sounds like great advice. It sounds like you're building more edge by digging the board in more (as opposed to leaning to create edge.) Thanks for the tip - I can't wait until spring to try this out for myself........winter sucks.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-24-2016, 9:22 AM Reply   
Lot's of fiber. Oh wait a minute, you said "pop".

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