surfrod

Hi all. First post here and I apologize in advance if I'm too long winded. It seems like this is a good forum for those of you who are wakesurfing experts and I hope I get some valuable feedback from you.

My sons and I have gotten into wakesurfing this year and really enjoy it. We have a 2005 VLX. Many times it was just the 3 of us that went out and it was a challenge to get a decent wake. I thought if I could get the boat to list more, it would help, but I did not want to add more ballast bags. So, I made a prototype "surfrod" which bolts to the side of my Illusion X tower (in the existing hole/guides for racks). Essentially, it is a steel block base with a 1" SS rod attached to it that can hold barbell plates. We hung 200 lb. (8 25 lb. plates) on our prototype during this past summer and it easily held the weight as did the tower. It has the same effect as having someone hang on to the tower outside of the gunnels which I have seen in pictures. Since the proto worked so well for us, I made up a prettier looking "production" version with a black powder coated base and a polished SS rod - looks really cool. I have not had a chance to take pictures of the newer version as I just completed it, but will soon and post. I also intend on adding 50 more lb. to it based on how easily the proto handled 200 lb. So far, the surfrod has been specifically designed to fit the Illusion tower since that is what I have, but I'm sure it could be modified to fit most any tower out there.

Our VLX setup is stock rear ballast on the surf side, 280 lb. additional ballast (4 70 lb. portable sacs) in the surf side locker, center/front ballast full, 2 people (300 lb.) on the surf side, the driver, and 200 lb. on the surfrod. With this setup, the swim step was 4-6 inches underwater at rest and the list was such that the rub rail was at water level at the rear corner of the boat. The resulting wake really "cleaned up" compared to just using water/people ballast. An added feature was that there was still plenty of room inside the boat since we do not use any fat sacs in the seating area. Also, we are able to avoid having people positioned on the sun deck the sundeck (for which I was ticketed by the DNR late last year) and not have anyone hanging off the tower outside the gunnels (which I have also seen and I KNOW is illegal). When changing sides, it actually takes more time to pump/drain the rear tanks than it does to change the weights and 4 70lb. locker bags.

In summary, I am looking for feedback on what use/potential this may have for the wakesurfing inustry. I thought it worked so well that I have invested siginificant time and money into it thus far and have protected it under "patent pending"; I also have a patent search that is in process. If it does prove to be worthwhile pursuing, I'm also looking for marketing suggestions. I was going to create a web site and market them directly, but I am sure that there are other, maybe more effective, options.

Thanks in advance for your feedback and I'll be happy to answer any questions either on this forum or via PM.

Marty Maringer

Hi Marty,

Seems like a good idea on a number of levels with some potential drawbacks

GOOD (I think you mentioned all of these)
- fast set up for instead of waiting for bags to fill
- quick change out for people who have crew that wants to surf both sides
- more space in boat
- potentially helps the boat list more with less weight overall needed
- less illegal activities on boat (people hanging or sundeck)

POTENTIAL DRAWBACKS / QUESTIONS
- does it still allow people to place boards on the racks fairly easily (either surf or wake)?
- extra weight on the boat while trailering or sitting isn't good (but people do it all the time with pop bags)
- will people think it looks cool on the side of their tower or look like an eyesore (I know you mentioned it is powder coated and SS - so probably looks good, but have to ask)
- there are probably others that I'm missing, but those are my first thoughts.

As for marketing you could doing a number of things or a combination.
- your own website is a great start
- sending out samples for people to test -> if they like them word of mouth will do wonders
- hooking up with the guys at www.wakeoutlaws.com, www.lakeeffectsupply.com and other sites that cater to the wakesurf crowd-- most of them are on this site and if they like the product they would probably consider selling on their site and could help with customer service, etc.
- you could also consider licensing the patent to another company such as DBOT5 that makes wakesurf racks. they already have relationships set up with various dealers/pro-shops around the country and could be an easy way to get a higher number of orders rather than ones and twos sold directly
- or you can try on your own to contract with a few reps that already have established relationships with boat dealers/pro-shops and see if they can get your product in the shops that way
a good place to advertise for "rep" positions is on www.malakye.com

I'm sure others will weigh in with other ideas. Good luck!

Like what Ed S was doing last year?

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/328728.html?1187024267

Thanks for the feedback Matt.

ADDRESS POTENTIAL DRAWBACKS/QUESTIONS:
I still have the Board racks on the upper tower locations. The Illusion tower allows lower and upper positions for racks. I have not fitted other towers, but I'm guessing that board racks could still be in place.

The weights are removable - similar to adding/removing weights to a barbell. I put them on the floor of the boat when not in use. I would not recommend having the weights on the surfrod while towing or even going above wakesurf speeds - I've not tested either case.

I think they look cool, but I'm biased. I forgot to mention that the weight plates I got are chrome plated. The powder coating could be in any color, I just chose black to match the tower.

Jeff,

Thanks for the link. It does indeed look like the same concept with a couple of significant differences.

The Surfrod is manufactured out of a machined steel base block and a 1 inch diameter SS rod.

The Surfrod can accomodate WAY more weight. I used 200 lb. plus the 25 lb. weight of the surfrod itself for a total of 225 lb. I believe Ed uses 80lb. With the production prototype, I plan to test 250 lb. of weight plus the unit for a total of 275 lb. (almost equal to Ed's big friend, but legal).

To date, the Surfrod is only designed to fit the Illusion X tower.

Marty

i like your idea marty, seems very effective. it seems as if your looking for feed back for potential buyers, correct? if or when you try to market this product i have one major concern. knowing that most people understand you have to be willing to push your boat to the limit to create a decent surf wake, many people will consider this product. but what about the effects it will have on the boat. what will you, the maker of this product do when a guy brings his boat to you with gel cracks, tower cracks, etc. its alot of stress on that tower and alot of stress on a single point of the hull on a bu. maybe not so much on a traditional tower. im just throwing out there for you to consider. but i do like your idea and would like to see some pics. good luck. bryan

Here is a picture showing Surfrod uninstalled.

Marty

Same concept, the fact the materials are different is a trivial difference.

Ed - I agree, it is the same concept.

marty, do you have a reply for my concern or should i leave it alone?

So what type of bolt are you using that is going into the tower, that can support 275 lbs in possibly choppy water that wont flex or eventually bend? Could this product with enough weight possibly damage the tower or boat? Basically what Bryan said

Yes - good point regarding regarding Ed - I forgot to mention that he did the same concept last year. Thanks for posting that up Jeff.

Ed - you still using that rack?

Tyler,

With regards to the bolt, I am using a 1/2 " diameter SS bolt with a Locknut and fender washers (larger diameter). The hole already in the tower is made for a 1/2" bolt, so that's what I used.

I did some calculations before ever considering putting it on my own boat. A summary of those is that a .50 inch diamater SS bolt has about 7840 lb. tensile yield capability and 4700 lb. shear capability - both way higher than the weight applied in this case. I considered going to Grade 8 bolt at first which significantly increases the strength, but after doing the calculations found it was not necessary.

With regards to the tower, I have not calculated forces applied, but have watched for any movement/deflection while using the Surfrod and have seen none. Note that the tower footprint at the base is pretty big - I estimate (I have not measured it) 2 x 10 = 20 square inches, so the downward force is applied over a relatively large area.

One summer's worth of use has shown no damage to the Surfrod, tower, or gelcoat. Again, I would NOT recommend buzzing across the lake at speed with the weights on. When going at surfing speeds with the boat weighted down, the boat does more cutting through chop than bouncing over it because of the weight and also because the boat is not on plane.

Marty

Bryan,

I've thought about your point and will seek advice as to what liability I would have, if any. Regardless, as a businessman I think that a liability insurance policy is a must as well as "do not use with more than xx lb. weight" warning. Seems like aftermarket products these days have a "use at your own risk" type of disclaimer, not just in the marine industry but any (note the disclaimer of any wakeboard, ski, etc. that spells out the risk of severe injury or even death). I would think that with aftermarket products such as this, there are so many misuse scenarios that it is not reasonable to hold the manufacturer responsible except in the case of a manufacturing defect.

Again, I have used the Surfrod for an entire summer and have seen no damage. I guess I don't know what else to do to test it.

So, thanks for bringing this up and I'll get some professional advice on the liability scenarios. If it proves to put me at too much risk, I'll just use it on my own boat and not market it.

Marty

Hey guys, I just exchanged email with Marty. Marty sounds like a standup guy. For various reasons I haven't done what Marty has. That is I haven’t made a product for public sale and I haven’t sought a patent.

I can say that on my boat the additional torque that tower mounted weight generates is very effective. In terms of safety and meeting required safe operating requirements the device is also effective. We used to have our big guy rope up and hike out. At 10 mph I don’t think that’s a huge hazard, but I got flak for operating like that, hence my tower rack. Secondly you’ll probably get stopped by marine patrol officers if you have your crew sitting on the gunnels or hiking out.

As far as damage to your boat, tower, and so on. First, this is Marty’s product and he’s going to have to deal with product liability. Keeping the weights close to the tower reduces the torque on the tower. That plays to the inherent strength of the tower.

I never loaded up more than 80 pounds on my rack. On my boat 80 pounds results in about 320 foot pounds of torque. I think the wood would have supported more weight, but I didn’t need more torque and I didn’t want to push the limits. I’ve run with 80 pounds on my tower for two seasons with no ill effects. My recommendation would be to make the pegs only long enough for a few weights limiting how much weight you can put on the tower.

marty thanks for the reply, the product is on the money, there is no doubt it will be affective. one other question for you. will you or could you intergrate this product into a form of a rack and or a quick release system to remove and or utilize it as a board rack when not weighting. a combo device would be the ultimate. i wil be following your progress and im not sold yet however you have grabbed my gained my intrest for the future. please continue to show progression pics and updates. good luck

Ed - thanks for the input. Give me a call when you're at Lake James. I think you have my cell number from our e-mail. I think our place will be completed on Jimmerson by then, if you need a place to stay we'll have extra dock space and room. I do have the rod at a limited length, both to limit the amount of weight and also so that the boat will still fit in a Shorestation (I made a proto with the rod too long and was in for a not so pleasant surprise when I tried to drive off my lift after I bolted the unit onto the tower).

Bryan - I had not considered combining a rack with the Surfrod, I'll have to pursue that. Seems like a quick release system where a rack and the Surfrod could be easily exchanged is very doable, though it would have to be more heavy duty to accomodate the much higher weight requirement.

Marty

Does anyone know what the most highly used tower is? I doubt that it's the Illusion X for which I have currently designed.

Thanks and also thanks for all the other input.

Marty

Marty, when my family goes to Lake James we stay at the Potawatomi Inn in Pokagon State Park. My family has been going there on and off for about 75 years. We just love the place. We reserve it two years in advance. I’ll have to give you a call next season.

75 years???? Your grandparents must have wakesurfed behind rowboats.

I don't think they were wakesurfing back then. When dad was a Boy Scout we built a wooden, finless, surf board form a mail order kit. Uncle Ralf had a 35 hp boat.

Here are some pictures I took yesterday.

I was previously mistaken with the amount of weight used. As you can see from the pictures, I used 6 25 lb. plates for a total of 150 lb. I intend to try 8 for a total of 200. I guess I can't count.

Marty

Marty- Looks really good on the tower... Keep us posted on your progress for sure.

Hi all. I've been busy with other things and, with our Indiana winter weather, was not really motivated to work on this for awhile - I think winter is going to last forever. But finally I got back to it. I dialed in the manufacturing drawing aspect of the design and made a "mini-production run" of 10 which brought the cost down considerably compared to making 2. Here are some pictures of the results. The rod is polished stainless, the base is gloss black powder coated carbon steel, all fasteners are stainless. So far, the Surfrod is still only designed to retrofit the Illusion X tower in the existing board rack holes.

Marty