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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Wakeboarding Discussion Archives > Archive through June 03, 2009

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Old     (andrewilso)      Join Date: Feb 2009       05-07-2009, 4:49 AM Reply   
Why have liquid force gone for a different mounting set up to every other board company !!!apart from the fact you have to buy l/f bindings or a set of adapter plates to fit other bindings, ie my 2008 murray's on a 2009 watson, which wont even fit on the adapter plates ......!!! luckly for me i ride with a wide stance and it only makes the set up a little wider 1cm or so,,so all is good :-) and what a great looking board can not wait to ride it, but just in case any body has a narrow stance check with your dealer before ordering a new l/f board to go with old bindings hope this is usefull..
Not heard of this until the board turned up looked at it and thought W,T,F lmao
Old     (jmuthafnp)      Join Date: Feb 2006       05-07-2009, 6:36 AM Reply   
Just goes to show you that you should not mix and match board and binding brands. LF bindings go with LF boards and so on. I wouldn't wear Adidas socks and Nike shoes. Just my .02.
Old     (charman)      Join Date: Aug 2006       05-07-2009, 6:42 AM Reply   
i have on adidas socks and nike shoes. they went right on this morning, and i can walk perfectly.
Old     (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-07-2009, 6:46 AM Reply   
Are you being serious about matching shoes and socks? Wakeboarding is the only sport I participate in where there is a proprietary-like gear requirement. It doesn't matter what type of baseball I use in my Rawlings glove, what type of bindings I put on my NeverSummer snowboard, what type of barkbusters I put on my dirtbike, etc. etc. I think it is silly of LF (and other companies) to do this. I totally understand why ($$$), and with the exception of an old LF Trip, my boards/bindings do match...but it still bothers me that they try to 'force' our hands like this.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       05-07-2009, 6:52 AM Reply   
That's what you get for cross dressin! Get yourself a Hyperlite board to match those Murray Boots!
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-07-2009, 7:41 AM Reply   
I agree andrew...The same applies to the CWB gear. I think its because the companies are going to a narrower (and stronger) baseplate and all the companies are not there yet. In another couple of year's everything may be on the 6" pattern...until then your screwed...and it sucks.

As far as not wearing adidas socks with nike shoes...that's just too funny, thanks for the morning laugh.
Old     (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       05-07-2009, 9:16 AM Reply   
It's no different then Burton using the 3D plate system and every other company using the 4x4 plate system on snowboards.


You mean this whole time I've been wearing the wrong socks with my shoes?!
Old     (knarbar)      Join Date: Nov 2006       05-07-2009, 9:23 AM Reply   
wakeboardSTL- There are legitimate reasons why people mix match. I for example have a foot that hates any and all LF bindings. (Ive worked for shops for the past 3 years Ive tried them all) The only boots that fit comfy on my feet, dont hurt, and perform the best are HYPERLITE. BUT, as far as boards I just cant get away from LF. So saying that you shouldnt mix match is A BIT inacurrate. Unless your showing off for your sponsors it shouldnt mattter. Support any all wakeboard companies to grow the sport.

just my .02
Old     (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       05-07-2009, 9:53 AM Reply   
more narrow does not = stronger...'09 vantange...being taken care of nicely by LF...
Upload
Old     (anodyne)      Join Date: Feb 2006       05-07-2009, 10:57 AM Reply   
At least Burton ships their bindings with 4x4 baseplates, just in case you happen to not ride their boards.

...hear that LF???
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-07-2009, 11:12 AM Reply   
Nick, I disagree purely based on physics principals. You can exert more force on an object with a longer lever. In your situation its more likely a materials issue. Companies are going with narrower baseplates because they are stronger...allowing them to reduce materials = lighter bindings.

Now, if you just wanted to show off your ability to break things...good job.

BTW, how do you like the new velcro? Is it really better than the 08 stuff? I LOVE the vantages but went through 3 pairs in half a season last year due to the velcro "dying".
Old     (andrewilso)      Join Date: Feb 2009       05-07-2009, 4:33 PM Reply   
Just to add another comment i have a set of 2007 shane bonifay ltd, and they fit the same as all the other board companys ..... But not on their new range unless u cough up for some adapter plates, so acctually liquid force are taking the $$$ a bit .Or they are saying all the other board companys universal fittings are a load of pants. And by the way Nike and Addidas suck, I like vans and airwalk socks
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       05-07-2009, 5:09 PM Reply   
4 inch and 4 inserts on slingshot boots if you want to throw in another factor... and they do include adapter plates in the box as well as 6 inch mounting on the newer boards

some day everyone will have a consensus. hopefully sooner than later
Old     (mikef9844)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-07-2009, 6:48 PM Reply   
If you think about it wakeboarding is still an extremely young sport. Every year we see new innovations that improve the equipment and everything else. The way I look at it is that we are still trying to figure out what works best, and everything keeps evolving. I remember a few years ago I was telling people they need to invent a binding thats fits and feel like a snowboard boot(i was rocking ultra suctions then), then in 2006 the Shanes were the first closed toe binding and now they are the standard. And we also rocked 2" center fins back in the day haha. I've never rode slingshot but bolting through the boot is another awesome idea. Just live with it now and in 50 years we'll be able to say "yea i was there when it started, i was there in the beginning and am a part of history!"
Old     (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       05-07-2009, 7:44 PM Reply   
actually the shanes werent the first, in 98 i was rockin the first real closed toe boots the sub rosa XTC's! Man I loved those things and they were literally about a decade ahead of the times.. Ratchet style CT bindings he he I never came out of those things, period. Weighed a ton tho..

Upload
Old     (mikef9844)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-07-2009, 8:08 PM Reply   
mark - those rock! never heard of those before but they look way ahead of their time!
Old     (czap)      Join Date: Oct 2007       05-07-2009, 9:28 PM Reply   
hah dang i thought i was lookin at some 2010 boots or somethin! 98! definatly ahead of its time
Old     (dizzyj)      Join Date: Jul 2003       05-07-2009, 9:34 PM Reply   
ya, was pissed about that myself. Was wanting to throw a pair of watson ltd's on my marek, but I'd have to go with a supper narrow stance, and thats just not going to happen.

guess im keepign my 06 zeuses for a while longer.
Old     (tentcitygoon)      Join Date: Mar 2006       05-07-2009, 10:42 PM Reply   
I'm pretty sure the move to a six inch hole pattern is industry wide; it is the new standard.
Old     (cheesydog)      Join Date: Mar 2009       05-08-2009, 12:19 AM Reply   
yea dude at the time I had no idea how far ahead they were, the funniest thing was that I stopped riding in 99 so they were my last pair of bindings, but I just assumed they were the future. Then when I started riding again in 06 the shane CT's had just been released and I bought those. But I had no idea that the whole period I had stopped riding they never progressed beyond the open toe stuff! Literally the last pair of open toe bindings I owned were the Moon Boots right before I bought the XTC's. Sorry for hijacking the thread! Couldnt help reminiscing :-)
Old     (andrewilso)      Join Date: Feb 2009       05-08-2009, 2:28 AM Reply   
So that totaly makes sense they have not done it for the money!!... it is to make the boards and the bindings lighter and materials are stronger, I'm not convinced personally,but that is my 02..then again I am a bit of a Scrooge when it comes to this sort of stuff,so if liquid force keep having to replace broken bindings Under warranty that must cost them quite alot of $$$ so it still boils down to the bucks in the end arrrrgggghhhh!!! I have to say it the new Watson is cool my bindings do fit on it but if someone has a narrow stance and they don't mind "addidas with Nike" Or was it "Nike with addidas" just check with the pro shop
First not second cos they just laugh haha and say how about a new pair of soven fly to go with that new board sir
Old     (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Dallas , TX       05-08-2009, 9:12 AM Reply   
M Dizzle, while it is true that a longer lever exerts more force, in the case of bindings the longer lever would be your leg or body. The narrow based plates would actually put more force on where the bindings screw into the board.

If you take a wide stance it is harder to knock someone down than if they are standing with their feet together. Same principle.
Old     (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       05-08-2009, 9:37 AM Reply   
thanks gene. don't take physics advice from a tax man...
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-08-2009, 10:03 AM Reply   
Okay I think I understand what your getting at Gene. I am trying to visualize it with a hand truck as that seems to be the most accurate comparison. Basically what your saying is that since the fulcrum location is a direct function of the baseplate length...lending more leverage to a 6" plate. Similar to trying to lift the same amount of weight at the end of a hand truck surface as opposed to putting up flush up against the lever surface.

Nick, can you fill me in on that velcro? I really want to rock Vantages again this season but am a skeptic with the velcro issues of 08. BTW, how about a little help with the physics issue since your an engineer you should be able to shed some light right?
Old    K.B.C.            05-08-2009, 10:15 AM Reply   
I'm curious on the Vantages now too. I never heard anything about the velcro last year. I remember reading that it may be an issue when they first came out, but was supposed to be some super bomber 3M velcro. I got a pair of the LTDs on the way and now Im worried.
Old     (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       05-08-2009, 10:23 AM Reply   
velcro is good so far. i really like the bindings overall...not too stiff and not too soft...easy in and out.

gene pretty much nailed the physics issue. it's not force necessarily that causes base plate failure like mine as it is torque (force X distance). there are two torques at work that caused this failure. the first is acting about the center point of the binding base plate which is the twisting of your leg (picture your leg is solid and disconnected at the hip...if you push on your hip parallel to your boards long dimension the torque acting about the center point of your binding baseplate is = to the force of your push X the length of your leg). this torque also acts about each binding bolt and the baseplate itself. the force (and resulting bending stress which causes failure) is = to the torque / the distance between the center of the baseplate and the bolt (or any point on the baseplate). smaller distance (as in the case of the new 6" baseplates) yields a higher force, higher bending stress, etc. I think the material plays a larger roll in the failure. I don't think an aluminum baseplate would have fractured like the resin baseplated did...but, of course, the aluminum is more expensive and maybe heavier...
Old     (andrewilso)      Join Date: Feb 2009       05-08-2009, 11:29 AM Reply   
Nickbot you mad professor what are you talking about, you obviously forgot the action of the board against the water as the board is also turning around a fulcrum, the amount of pressure applied around this does depend on the size of the leg and the amount of n/m applied but the board is also acting as a lever as well counteracting against the pressure applied,
sounds good have not got a clue what im on about
Ho Ho
Old     (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-08-2009, 11:38 AM Reply   
Okay, I think I got it then. I guess if you extrapolate it out to an extreme if you have a 5'10" lever (wakeboarder) attached to bindings with 5'10" baseplates it would put very little stress on the bolts just as if you were trying to lift something with a handtruck of similar dimensions...you would have to put a GRIP of weight against the Human portion to get any lift out of the baseplate.

So ultimately I guess the choice for going narrower has more to do with materials, and maybe board flex characteristics. I am also thinking that by narrowing the baseplate they can add material to the heal and toe lift issues some bindings have since they are lightening them up in other areas.

Scott, I had 3 pairs of the 08's no 09's. One of the issues I had was that the velcro would get all fuzzy (the sign its getting weak) and not hold as well. The life really shortens on the velcro if one of the edges of material creates a "run". That seemed to be the binding point of the velcro creating an unraveling effect. That issue was happening when I was riding 2-3 sets a day 2-3 days a week. I was told by several people that this year's velcro would be better. This information came from other skeptics as well, not "Pushaman" propganda B.S. I wouldnt be worried, LF stands behind their stuff as long as you dont void the warranty.

In case LF is listening... Why dont you guys put D-rings on each end of the velcro so you could just get replacement straps? Then people could have options to. You could market all kinds of different straps for the binding. It would be awesome! Rock different colors, different types of fasteners for different areas of the boot, totally customizable to each rider's needs!
Old     (adama)      Join Date: Feb 2008       05-09-2009, 12:07 AM Reply   
M-Dizzle, great suggestion. We are always listening. haha I will take that suggestion to the table. As far as the 6" vs 8". Simply screw only one side of an 8" plate into an insert and lift the other side. Measure the amount of lift. Do the same on any 6" plate. The 6" plate flexes less. You are forgetting that compression and pull strengths are different than bend and twist strength. Take the same 5'10" baseplate described above; it would have to be like 1000 x thicker to have a similar bend strength as say a 6" plate. Think how easy it is to bend an 8' long piece of pvc sprinkler pipe and how hard it is to pull it apart. Or for that matter, take the same pvc and cut it down to 8" and try and bend. That's why we (and CWB, Obrian, Ronix and Hype next year) changed the plate. The new 6" designs are lighter, stronger, stiffer, and even look better.

Nickbot, sorry your plate broke! We will replace it for you. The resulting fracture is actually caused by the plate being too stiff. But, moving to a narrower plate has reduced this type of breakage, dramatically....

Great discussion!
Old     (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       05-09-2009, 6:34 AM Reply   
adam,
what is the material of the baseplate?? it looks like some sort of mineral filled nylon??

also, new plates are on the way...thanks.
Old    K.B.C.            05-11-2009, 3:18 PM Reply   
For anyone concerned about mounting a pair of 09 LF bindings to an older board. I just got mine today and got them mounted to my 08 LF. The retrofit kits work great, I was a bit concerned that the retrofit mounts wouldn't be as strong, but it's fine. The retrofit kit is just like the HL "Claw" but just for one side, if that makes sense

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