Bladder boats banned

A local lake that I take my X2 on has banned "bladder boats". As expected I am not happy about this . Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with fighting something like this? I realize that I could put lead in the boat, add more people, etc. I'm not looking for ways around the law but rather a way to stop it. Here is a link to a news story outlining the ordinances:
http://www.grantky.com/articles/2004/05/05/news/news02.txt

This is a good example of outlawing something that lawmakers don't understand.

It doesn't sound like you can stop it at this point, so I'd just switch to non-"liquid" ballast.

There was obviously a powerful lobby behind this effort, because officials admit that only "3 or 4" boats are causing the problem. They passed an ordinance based on 4 boats???????

"Williamstown City Council members approved an ordinance during a meeting on May 3, in a 5-1 vote, that would prohibit bladder boats (boats with large tanks that can be filled with liquids to make them ride lower in the water and create more of a wake).

"The issue of bladder boats came up a couple of years ago," said Mayor Glenn Caldwell. "We received several phone calls and it seemed to be a situation that was getting out of hand, so we felt like we needed to address it from a safety issue."

For Bobby Newman, Grant County's fish and wildlife officer who sometimes patrols Lake Williamstown, banning bladder boats on the lake is a good thing.

"Those boats create a lot more turbulent wake and boaters are responsible for their wake," Newman said."


Wow! Time to purchase some lead.

It sounds like the private docks were the big issue and boat thing was just threw in there. Probably by some fisherman on the board.

This sounds like a little knowledge is a bad thing. If this is a commercial area, then they just outlawed all seagoing vessels, fishing vessels, and any vessel with a livewell/integrated cooler. Fountain also makes high-speed boats with ballast tanks in the nose to provide trim for maximum speed.

You ARE responsible for the damage your wake causes. This is both federal and in every state. For example, when the USCG is on patrol they will come off plane to dead slow to pass a small craft (fishing boat, canoe, etc.) to avoid throwing the wake to swamp them. If you swamp them with your wake, you can be cited under federal and state rules. So keep your distance. No, this is not fair, but has been in place since the early 1900's when powered craft capable of throwing a bow wake came on the scene.

If it were me I would address the city council and ask for specific situations where "bladder boats" had caused problems that standard boats had not. I would be willing to bet that they do not have any specific cases. You probably can't do anything about it but you can make a point and point out that it is not the the boat but it is the boater. I can add fatsacs to my boat and get just as much wake so why wouldn't they ban my boat?

My inlaws have a house on this lake, and it is a long narrow, horseshoe shaped lake with houses crammed on top of one another. I think the primary problem is that the lake is really busy. It's the only big public lake around, short of driving to Cumberland or Brookville. I would have to agree that it seems a bit like overkill, but having been there trying to pull into a slip or out of a slip while some jack00f is cruising off plane behind you, I can see what they felt it as necessary. It's almost impossible to fing glass down there any time of day, so I have to believe that it has to be falling out of favor with people who want to ride.

I guess we need to ask the question: "Is this like skateboarding, where it will be illegal most places?"

Eric

FWIW, I am not criticizing or anything, just trying to see things from the other side. I know how hard it is to get the boats in and out of the slip and they aren't even in a busy part of the lake. However, I live on an even smaller lake and can imagine it will not be too long before we can't board with ballast either. Starting wednesday, we'll have about 2000# in the boat.

Eric

Can we get the city to pas an ordinace that prvents fishermen from sitting in the lake stationary and causing a "road block"? I bet that would never pass.

That sux, My wife and I were looking to buy a summer home there. Aren't they also expanding that lake?

There has been talk about the lake expanding for years but I've yet to hear anything to confirm it.

The lake on the weekend is crazy. But no one wakeboards at this time...way too much traffic and the water is too rough. The only time you see "bladder boats" is during the week or really early on the weekends.

It looks like a group of us will be attending the next city council meeting. Does anyone know of any research, statistics, or info that will help dispute such a ridiculous ordinance? Thx in advance...

If it is worded in such a manner that the bladders are a result of wanting bigger wakes, can you use the excuses that you want the ballast to help trim the running attitude of the boat. If that does not work, then point out that any boat that has tanks capable of holding water would also be included in the ban since it could be assumed that adding any water to the interior of the boat will cause a bigger wake, then that would mean that all bass boat would then also be under the umbrella of the ban.

I see this as unjust and unconstitutional. They are singling out a very small group, and not treating them like they are treating the whole.

If this was a private lake, then I could see how they could do it, but not on a public lake that is supported by tax dollers.

Thing is if the property owners are the ones pushing this you might have problems. About five years ago, the town wanted to draw more water out to sell and the Property owners freaked because it would lower the lake level by 5-10 feet. They threatened to leave and default on the taxes thus bankrupting the town. They realize the lake is more valuable because of the tax dollars, which is why they want to expand the lake too. I'd suggest alligning yourselves with the Lake Association if you really want to accomplish something.

I too think you could also argue the bass boat/fish well argument side of things as well.

Eric

I posted a similar thread earlier "Banning wakeboard boats?" . We just had wakeboard boats/wake enhancement systems get listed as prohibited watercraft, which I was informed by my area rep. that it can't be enforced. The thing is, your boat is rated for a maximum weight or people. I don't see how they ban your boat as long as your not exceeding the approved limits. I am allowed 1100lbs in my boat. If I choose to put lead, water sacs, gear, etc.. that is my choice. Also, what is the difference in wakes between a wakeboard boat going 22mph and a Rinker I/O going 15mph. The wake is about the same if not bigger on the Rinker. Wakesurfing is next. It will just be outlawed all together. Once other lakes see that it is getting passed elsewhere, they will jump on the bandwagon. Normally older people sit on the boards that pass the rules and most, not all, don't like this kind of activity. Good luck!

It sounded like it was the ranger that pushed it. let me guess; he likes bass fishing.

You might bring up the point that you believe the rather silly-sounding term "bladder boat" was coined for the purpose of mocking and belittling wakeboarders, that it is not part of the wakeboarding vernacular nor that of the general public, and that this derogatory language suggests that whoever proposed this action against wakeboard boats has a particularly biased and uncivil view of wakeboard boats and their owners, i.e. he is less concerned with public safety than with reserving the lake for uses which appeal to his own taste.

Suggest that it is entirely possible for all lake users to coexist and that banning one group is not the answer. Point out that a boater is already responsible for damage caused by his or her wake so banning wakeboarding boats serves absolutely no purpose but to exclude wakeboarding participants from using the water, even if they would do so in a safe and courteous manner as required by current laws.

Similar examples to this ban would include:

1. Banning cars and trucks from roadways to make it safer for motorcycles even though there are traffic laws in place to ensure safe coexistence.

2. Banning motorized vehicles from roadways to avoid scaring horses even if there is already a law that says you have to slow down so you don't scare the horses.

3. Banning all motor boats, including bass boats, so that swimmers won't get run over when people pilot them in an unsafe manner even if it's already illegal to run over swimmers.

How are they going to expand the lake?

They should ban bass boats from going 80+mph through crowded tow areas.
These guys either creep along with a trolling motor or go flying across the water with a 10ft rooster tail. Either way, they hate our wakes. No Ski zones - I say there should be some No Fishing zones. Can I get an Amen.

The funnies thing I saw was a Bass Boat trying to pass me in a channel he was running 60+ MPH, and everytime he hit my wake he just about lost control. He bounced at least four times before he could finally get a clean run past me. Now am I responsible for the damage caused to the bass boat when it capsizes when it looses control due to a faulty fisherman's zeal to be the first to a fishing hole?

search the web for an article from some bass organization that claimed the wakes from wake boats hitting the shore actually made the fishing better. Someone posted it here a while back.

I think the best thing is to try and get representation on the board if you can....but meeting with them and intelligently discussing the issues w/ facts is the next best way to go. As for the big wakes....you could explain that a loaded boat wouldn't be any worse then a large storm rolling across the lake. That could throw thousands of waves similar to a loaded down boat.......

Good Luck!

Too many smart ass punks who think they have the god given right to do as they please (look at the comments now and read those that follow this post). No one seems to understand your rights end when they affect others.

Property is and always has been sacred in the U.S. The second you destroy it or limit an owners enjoyment of it, you've lost. This is how it should be.

Three foot rollers that destroy the shoreline and those pro audio speakers on the towers do not exactly endear the voters (those that live on the lakes and pass the regulations) to wakeboard boats.

Common courtesy unfortunately is lost on too many wakeboarders.


(Message edited by dfish on May 18, 2004)

I agree Dan, but it is a two way street.

Fishermen's right end whne the impact me too, as my rights end when I impact them. I guess we should all just go home and stay inside.

Robert

Thanks for proving my point so eloquently. I've been through this with all kinds of other sports:

1. Our jeep trails were threatened becuase too much garbage was left behind. We organized groups that maintained the trails. That worked for a while, until a few started driving off the trails. Now the trails are closed for all.

2. We had thousands of miles of trails closed to our mountain bikes because a few could not dismount and yield to the horses. The horses won.

3. Our local rock climbing locations are closed because a few had to put in their own anchors.

4. Our local lake banned out of the water exhaust systems because of a few convertors (converts gas to noise boats). Fought and had the ban removed to allow tournement boats. They are working to ban wake enhancing boats. It will pass soon.

The if he can do it, or they are just as bad as I am, I'll just "go home and stay inside," I can do whatever I want five year old logic gets old.

The most objectionable thing about a fisherman is the 1,000,000 candle power floodlight shinning in your bedroom at 5:00 AM because they are looking for bass under your dock.

Take some responsibility, show some respect and a little courtesy.

(Message edited by dfish on May 18, 2004)

Sorry about the rant, just sick and tired of more and more things I enjoy being legislated away.

Whether you agree with the reasons is mute, the end result is our sport and our boats are being legislated away.

Dan,
Your right - limiting the enjoyment of property (my boat) is wrong.
The "do as they please" mentality is definitly a problem at our PUBLIC lake. Personal watercraft darting around ignoring (or oblivious to) the rules of navigation, bass boats blazing and bouncing through on the verge of losing control, drunken pontoon parties that just love throwing bottles & cans out in the water. Oh yeah, and a few waves from a wake board boat. What about the fact that 2 cycle outboard motors (common to fishing boats and other small craft) cause a significant amount of water pollution while a 4 cycle is much cleaner. Maybe we should be capsizing these boats; take them out of commission. All this has a lot to do with your point of view, SO, here's mine:
If you're on or around a lake, wouldn't it stand to reason that you would encounter some waves? Whether you live on a lake or visit occasionally, you might want to read up on waves - what they are & what they do. Don't you think "three foot rollers" at the shoreline is a little bit of an exageration?
On our lake there are plenty of NO SKI zones for the faint of heart to spend time away from skiers, tubers, and boarders. So, when I see someone in a small fishing boat, canoe, etc. being swamped by waves - I have no sympathy.
I keep my boat moored at the lake and I know what kind of damage waves can do to a boat. So, I invested in some strong rope and dock fenders - PROBLEM SOLVED. Now I just hope I don't get some discarded fishing line caught on my prop, or maybe step on a broken beer bottle. I guess I'll just keep my eyes open and deal with it. It seems like you have the great American "blame someone else" mentality.
As for common courtesy, the residents of Williamstown should learn to share their lake, and Dan should have enough common courtesy to not get all potty mouth in his posts.

Okay, I'll bite. Recently I moved to Fl and have a house on the lake now in Central Florida. I don't believe that anyone that does not live on a lake understands the impact of rollers from boats. I too, was in denial. The fact the the boat creates a large wake is not so much the problem as the need they feel to ride as close to your docks as possible to avoid a blown out lake. 3 foot rollers? Yeah maybe a little bit over the top. 1-2 foot rollers...seems to be the rule. That doesn;t sound large, but when they come every 3 minutes due to the traffic, the boat's docked takes a beating. I can attest to this first hand.
If the sport wants to protect their right to ride with ballast, then they need to wake up and see that not everyone enjoys the sport the way that we do. I know that on the weekends my son thinks he is at the ocean, I've seen Cocoa Beach have smaller waves. Unfortunately, it seems to be that the "younger" boat drivers are the ones that aren't paying attn. Don't take this post wrong, I am against banning boats that produce large wakes, but until this sport educates the drivers to "common sense" I think we will be seeing more banned boats from lakes. The smart groups that will be out to take away your rights will be those that argue shore errosion. How are you going to argue that a lake without boat traffic during the week is smooth and yet on the week-end is enduring
3 minute bashings from boats. All boats can create a large wake at slow speeds, but the ones that do it the most on my lake are young inboard drivers. I too make sure my boat is not damaged from wakes, but not everyone does. Remember, if the wake creates property damge its your dime....like it or not. There is a very simple solution to this entire topic before it becomes wide-spread. EDUCATION and COMMON SENSE. If anyone is in denial about the wakes created against the docks, let me know I could take pictures every day. Fisherman..........Why do they think that because fish may live under our water trampoline that it is okay to cast.......

Dan,

I hear ya, and I am not trying to use a 5 year old's mentality. I am just pointing out that we all need to find a way to co-exist. This does not work when one group just goes out and bans another group.

I feel bad that a few rotten apples can ruin the whole bunch, but that is what happens more often than not. Your examples explify that.

I spent my entire youth (weekends and summers) at my grand-parent's lake front house on a private lake in east texas. I have seen first hand how big wakes can erode the shore, and throw the boats at the docks around. This was back in the 80's before this whole bladder boats thing happened. There were big boats that caused big wakes back then too, so I don't see how banning bladder boat will solve anything. i think it is pointed legislation to help fishermen and punish skiers. That is just wrong no matter how you feel about either party.

I agree that 99% of the problems come from unresponsible boaters. Stay away from others regardless of where they are or what they are doing, stay away from the docks, and don't think it is your lake for only your use. That also means stay away from me, and keep in mind that I also have the right to use the lake, but also know it is not just my lake.

This is very similar to the posts that I see where a wakeboarder is pissed that somebody is encroaching on the "line they have been running all day." They get pissed when they ahve to deal with the other boat's wake. They never think that,"Hey I have been in this same spot all day, and not let anybody else use the good water." No they just think, "It is my spot so get the h3ll out of here." It is that attitude that is getting wakeboarding banned.

We all need to learn to use the same lake, and we all need to learn to respect the other's needs on the lake. Wakeboarders want big wakes, skiers want no wakes, and fishermen want no boats on the lake but their's. Somehow we need to make it all work or we WILL be staying home on the couch watching the boobtube.

robert you forgot to add that duckhunters don't want fisherman anywhere near their decoy spread. Usually a shot across the bow relays the point.

Courtesy is one thing that is lacking for sure. Williamstown is a lake that is plagued each weekend by the best of the worst. Jet skis, jet boats, inboards running top speed for fun. Someone gets killed nearly every year. The lake I now live on is pretty small. Only about 3-4 boats can be enjoying the watersport of their choice at a time. When we have been out and each taken a set, we'll pull into a nice, sunny cove and relax for a bit until an opening developes and we can jump back in. I think if more people thought of things that way, we would be better off.

As for the erosion thing, I don't think much can be done to help that, it's a natural progression. You can't build seawalls everywhere. I tend to agree with Dan more than Ricky. If more of us were more responsible we might not have to worry about people banning our activities. That's not blaming the problem on others, it's the beginning of accepting responsibilty for your actions.

ERic

You all are proving my point exactly! Oh, the fisherman and their bass boats, oh the PWC's, oh the converters, oh the drunken sailer in the Bayliner.

Well boys thats what we call _unt logic. It goes a long way toward making an intelligent argument.

Well 2 stroke engines on the PWC's (and on snowmobiles) are banned in many places and will be completely phased out in 2007.

Yes I do have a bladder boat, yes I have had a weighted boat for over 10 years!

And yes I want to be able to continue to use my $50k+ for a long time to come.

None of us want to lose the right to use our boats as we feel. The go fast boats also get the bad rap for noise, speed and carlessness, but not all are bad. Wakeboarders get the bad wrap because they send rollers into docks due to being to close or over-weighted, but we all don't do it. The fisherman, well the sad thing is they have alot more participates and spend alot more money than all of the rest of us combined. They are better organized (locally and nationally), have more exposure on TV (Can't not find a fishing show on Sat. am.) They generally have a more non-threatening look to themselves. They in general don't dis-respect other boaters. Our industry that we enjoy also carries a stigma, and as we all learned along time ago, first impressions are everything. It doesn't make it any better when once we do make mistakes by driving to close to docks, or acting like we own coves and then create a scene once confronted. I have seen this occur many of times. It amazes me that such a niche sport like wakeboarding can be so clickish. I will say it again, if things do not change and the industry doesn't pull together, this case of banning "bladder" boats will continue. If you don't believe ask the Winter Park Chain of Lakes users in Orlando or do a search on the internet, I found about 5 other post for different lakes across the country that are talking..........Just use Common Sense!

Santa Fe waterski community (Texas) has banned wakeboard boats on their ski lake, so it is not just comming from outside the industry.

Robert,

Are you talking about Lago SanteFe in Houston? They banned WakeBoard boats on thier lakes??? Really? I live in a private ski lake community in Dallas, developed by the same company that developed Lago, called Princeton Lakes. Princeton lakes was designed for all water activities, including wakeboarding and skiing, tubing...ETC.. Were wake boats never allowed or did they vote them out?
Sean

I love the shore erosion theory. Why don't you complain to God about the moon because it makes waves that continuously beat against the beaches.
This a tuff world that has been around long before we were here and it will be around long after we are gone. Nature will take care of everything. Where something dies something else will thrive. In the animal kingdom when there is too much population for a given area disease and other things set in and thins it out.
Treehuggers talk about global warming(which I think is a crock), but if the weather is warming up it's just a cycle. When something is a billion years old a cycle could last 500 years and it just be a blink of an eye.
Back to you're lake and it's shore. You should be complaining that there is a lake there at all cause chance are it man made and messed up everything that nature had in place and you're happiness is irrelevant.

(Message edited by mcfatty on May 20, 2004)

(Message edited by mcfatty on May 20, 2004)

I believe that banned any v-drive boats and don't allow extra ballast b/c a few abused their lake and caused excessive erosion. That is what my dealer said when we asked about ski communities. Since we have a SANTE he did not want us to buy somewhere we could not use the lake. I think the ban was a result of some people loading their boat up with 3,000# or more of ballast.

The same developer is making a lake in Katy out west of Houston too.

How do you like the developer? My wife and I would like to find a ski lake we could live on.

This is one more example of how one bad apple can spoil the bunch.

Robert... I live in Princeton Lakes, north east of plano. I have a Supra Launch SSV and there are a couple of other V-Drive boats on the lakes as well. I would think that banning V-Drive boats on a private lake, when they already exist could probably get pretty hairy. I love our development! I find it extremley funny, and you will have to excuse me, we deal with some issues as well, but there is NO WAY IN HECK that one boat full of ballast could do shoreline ersosion if the shorelines are sloped to the proper specs, and you have proper vegetation to the shorelines. We to have some people that are the big believers in the V-Drive boats and ballast is going to ruin the lakes.. Our biggest issues reside on lakes that wakeboard boats have never been on. They are on the shorelines that were never ever sloped properly. Like McFatty stated, mother nature will cause more damage in one day with high winds causing rollers all day that the 2 hour's that your boat will create any wakes.

Sean

I agree with what both of you are saying. The problem comes from public opinion, not fact. This is a fact of reality. When was the last time you ever heard of any legislation ever being passed based on facts alone, and not based on public opinion. Unfortunatly most people don't bother to use their brain and reason things out, and would rather take the easy route and just jump to conclusions.

I am not too sure if they banned the v-drives from all the lakes, or just limit them to a specific lake. Either way I see it as a start to a bigger problem.

I have spoke to some people at a few of the ski communities here in Houston (Texas Ski Ranch near Rosharron, Lago Santa Fe, and Lakes of Rosehill). Of all of them I want a place on Rosehill since it is only a few miles from my existing Home, but I have heard the are only Hardcore Skiers, and don't really take too well to the amateur hacks like me. The others all have their issues, and when you add water to a homeowner's association everything gets much more complicated than the standard homeowner's assoication that is already a mess in most cases.

I don't necessarily agree that sloping and vegitation will prevent shoreline erosion. Regardless of the slope, when the water preaks across the shore there will be some transfer of sand. At my grandparrents lake house there has been about 8" of erosion in the last 20 years. There is erosion, but is 3/8" erosion each year something we need to deal with? Or is it a justification to ban bladder boats?

Since I've been on the lake for about 15 years now I can attest this is not a case of "bad apples" ruining it for everyone. There are only 4 "bladder boats" on the lake and all are respectable and courteous. These boats are used 95% of the time during the week when there are maybe 4 boats on the entire lake (all fisherman). The weekends are impossible to wakeboard on during the summer so we don't even try.

This is more or less a case of singling us out and it irritates me. I appreciate everyone’s input and advice on how to address this issue and will post updates to the situation.

Robert...

Not doubting your experience with shoreline erosion, and maybe I should have clarified. On OUR lakes, they were designed to operate at a water level of 5'10" to 7'3"'s. As the water level rises above that point, and the shoreline is not slopped properly erosion will happen. If we manage the lake level VERY closely our erosion issues dissapear almost completley. I have watched extensivley, (I am on the POA board as lake ops) the wakes thrown from a fully loaded V-Drive boat, and a ski nautique pulling a tuber w/no weight at all, and the wakes are very very close when they break at the shoreline. Don't foget, out lakes are dug out of the black gumbo mud, which is very very stick and compacted, and not sand, so erosion cause from backwash after the wake breaks is extremley limited, and take into account, the lakes depth, at only 6'0", the wakes are not nearly as big as they would be in a deep lake. The ballast in a lake of this depth only help in the firmness of the wake, and not nessessarily in the size.

Sean

Robert,

Just look at the erosion as expanding your lake and in a 100 million years it will be as big as Lake Mead with party coves and everything.

3/8" is nothing. If your lake was still a river you would have alot more with heavy rains through out the year raising the level and swift currents eating the shore. Look at the Grand Canyon.

I understand what you are saying, and agree to a point. My grandparrent's lake is a constant level lake. It can't have the water higher than its normal state, unless there is a flood. This lake is in east texas, where the soils is a sandy-clay gumbo. Mostly red clay, but the shores are mostly sand b/c that is what the top layer of soil is there. This is also a lake that is about 500' wide in most places, and about 20-25' deep in the center. It was made by daming three ends of a valley, and is both spring and stream fed. The pojnt I was trying to make is that there will be erosion in all lakes regardles of whta you do to prevent it. The erosion can be slowed way down, but it can't be totally stopped. That is physics in action. The damage can be repaired, but for your condition I doubt you would see more than 1/8" per year erosion, and that is just about immesurable. Don't think that there is no erosion even in clay soil that is covered with vegitation.

I just think that people need to come to the realization that the laws of physics na't be broken. We just need to be sure that they understand the laws of physics apply equally to fishermen, skiers, pontooners, and all other.

I have seen a lake filled with rollers due to one jon boat making a 6" wake. The 6" wake was just high enough that the wind caught it, and amplified it. Then the secondary waves were created, and the wind caught them, and the cycle started, and then the lake was filled with large rollers. Heck this is how the waves at the beach are created. Maybee we should ban wind, it is responsible for larger waves than my SANTE.