Do helmets help?

Does wearing a helmet help with those star seeing crashes? I have had a few crashed were my head hurt after and wondered if a helmet helps with this or makes it worse.

oh god. no you didnt. I am scared of the out come of this thread.

oh boy what did i do? I have been away from the board a while.

Do a search, there are some huge threads debating for and against helmets.

Yes helmets work for those star seeing crashes.

The increased surface area of helmets cause greater deceleration and therefore a greater chance of concussions. Or wait, was it that they provide a sofer impact and slower deceleration with the cushioning inside the helmet? I don't remeber what everybody decided.

I don't care about the physics or whatever anyone THINKS. I rock a helmet and have had no concussions since wearing one. I had 3 in one summer before I started wearing one. IMO.

yes they do

There is no FULL PROOF of helmets causing or not causing an increased risk of concussion in the water.

WW submitted a little article on it here, but it comes to no real conclusions either. http://www.wakeworld.com/getarticle.asp?articleid=1499

I did some thought and discussion with peeps on WW and even talked to a few college professors and a neurologist at a hospital nearest a popular lake to board at in my area. We came up with some possible solutions, but tests would still have to be conducted.--> STILL NO ULTIMATE CONCLUSION. here is the thread that i started with this info.
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/1/552043.html?1204678508 Someone, please take the idea and run with it if you are still in school or have access to necessary equipment, it would be super easy to test. Accelerometers inside a dummy head, hit on water with and without helmet at reproducable velocities and angles, compare data, DONE!

p.s. Even if helmets later are proven to be good in WAKE RIDING, i would like to see if the ideas (specifically the golf ball dimple idea would reduce factors further.

Up to this point it can only be said with 100% surety that if your hitten sliders->: wear a helmet. if your wake riding, its up to your interpretation.

recently i have been trying to find somnething in the middle and came up with this

(please don't laughf everyone, untill you read all my reasons)



http://www.northwaleswetsuits.co.uk/surfhat.html

only problem is i cant find an identicle one sold in the states, but i guess this isn't a real "big problem"

REASONS:
1. about 3mm padding, insignificant? maybe. help in concussion? maybe. diffinately doesnt increase surface area significantly and provides a nice smooth surface to reduce deceleration (watch the double negative there) think of a swimmers cap

2. Even if it is a POOR substitute for a helmet in wake riding it will at least provide additional padding for a helmet later ;)

3. If 1 and 3 sound stupid, than i think everyone can agree that this cap is one of the most "stylish" neo caps (if i can say that about a neoprene cap) around for keeping your head warm in the colder seasons (a good % of heat is lost through the head as we all know)

i searched the web for about an hour finding what i thought was the most "comfortable and stylish looking" neo cap, so take advantage of it if you want. the ear pads are mesh, which is nice too

Sorry Jeremy....


BAHAQHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAH

Wheres the Horse! Looks like something a Jockie would wear!

someone mentioned on the last thread about submitting this to MYTH BUSTERS... i think its a good idea, but we need to think of a "myth" about helmets, or no helmets, that they can "bust"

.....jeremy if now you could buy that and have a spine out of foam stitched on, front to back (to help split the water, like a spine on a board)....you could be onto something. I think the helmet argument always falls apart because we use helmets made for hitting hard surfaces,....the water is soft we only need to break the surface tension (I think).......anyways sooner or later someone will come up with something specifically for water....and make a mint(thanks to our many discussions about this on wakeworld..its all good). Jeremy you seem to have enough energy and balls to promote new and different stuff that works (i.e. slingshot)...so maybe you should start up a new helmet company .

And maybe put pictures of brains or skulls on it!



(Message edited by absoluteboarder on March 17, 2008)

It's ok Andy,

but i challenge you, or anyone to post one that looks more "stylish and comfortable"



Michael Z-
the spine idea you mentioned was my first idea, but then it was pointed out that it only works for specific angles of a fall. Other angles the spine would act like a water wheel in reverse and actually slow the head even more... not good.
my golf ball dimple ide would work for every angle of crash. the dimples on a golf ball reduce the coefficient of drag in the air, and i imagine they would do the same in water.

I submited it to myth busters (and some other person did too in response to the thread here
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5261919888/m/3681966659

I would love to do testing on this, but i am graduating this semmester and there is no available time and space in the exercise science labs now to conduct my experiment. I would also love to "start a company" but i really have no funds as a poor-newlywed-newlydad-graduating-student.

Even those wearing them for sliders will hit the water once and a while. This really needs to be investigated and improved!}

here is the other one someone else started on myth busters
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5261919888/m/6591957659

i don't know how the website works, but maybe if the pages get enough views and comments then they will be taken up?

maybe if these ideas are submitted to some existing wake helmet companies than things can get rolling too?

......AFTER 12000...PLUS POST i THINK i WOULD HAVE SEEN ENOUGH OF EVERYTHING TOO

Jeremy,

You can find those made here in the states, just do a search for O'Neill Squid. Most surf shops carry them in 2 & 3mm.

....I disagree with the waterwheel theory ...we arnt talking of spines that stick out 4 inches but maybe 1 inch.

depending on the arrangement of spines....most angle could be covered (but nothing will ever be perfect)
and once the water is broken I dont believe another spine coming through the water then at a different angle (and only sticking out 1 inch) is going to make a difference)

I may for fun have to make a prototype this summer...thats how it all starts........we can
yada yada yada
all we want, but until we do something, nothing will get done (capiche?)

....also I am thinking it just be something like a baseball cap....so when you hit the spine that hits first breaks the water and then the cap just comes off from the water pressure.....so this would negate anywaterwheel theory as the cap would then just come off.

actually that makes me wonder if wearing a real helmet would be better not tying it up. That way it is used to break the water tension initially and then just comes off with the following water pressure. My shred ready you could tighten up around the head so it will stay on but not strap it up to really keep it on....just some thoughts......I guess that would be a breakaway helmet!



(Message edited by absoluteboarder on March 17, 2008)

the only good thing about this post was Joe's response

I'm outa here....can't take any more

gordon,

i did find the Oniel Squid, but i still liked the Alder stealth cap better because:
1. the mesh ear panels for better hearing
2. the brim of the cap looks more squared off and emulates a "cap" better than the squid, which looks more like a "hood" with a visor
3.i think the stitchings on it are kinda kool (and maybe they will help break-up water...
4. it is cheaper than the squid (excluding shipping fees)


another thing these "neo caps" might help in is guarding your ear drums? yes?

(Message edited by wakerider111 on March 17, 2008)

so im gunna submit it to mythbusters with the myth being helmets reduce the chance of concussion during a wakeboard crash
hey you never know they might use it

Considering some of the ridiculous stuff they have on Mythbusters these days, I'd be quite disappointed if they didn't use this idea.

heres the forum that you have to post em in if you wanna see what i put
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5261919888/m/3381990959
its kinda interesting what people say on it

more interesting NEW stuff that i found on my school's website home page.
if you find info on concussions and feel like getting "geeky" for a moment check this
http://byunews.byu.edu/archive08-Mar-concussion.aspx




ALSO, maybe some didn't see it on the thread link i posted but there has been research done comparing water skiing and wakeboarding injuries that concluded that some head protection is needed. here is the abstract to that study
found an peer reviewed journal stating the significant higher statistics of head injuries of wakeboarders than skiers (of course) and stating the undeniable need to research helmet and other protective gear. here is the abstract for those who have interest

Characteristics of Water Skiing–Related
and Wakeboarding-Related Injuries
Treated in Emergency Departments
in the United States, 2001-2003
Sarah Grim Hostetler,* Todd L. Hostetler,† MD, Gary A. Smith,* MD, DrPH,
and Huiyun Xiang,*‡ MD, MPH, PhD
From the *Center for Injury Research and Policy, Columbus Children’s Research Institute,
Children’s Hospital, The Ohio State University College of Medicine and Public Health,
Columbus, Ohio, and the †Department of Internal Medicine/Pediatrics, Ohio State University
Medical Center and Children’s Hospital, Columbus, Ohio
Background: Water skiing and wakeboarding are popular sports with high potential for injury due to rapid boat acceleration,
lack of protective gear, and waterway obstacles. However, trends in water skiing– and wakeboarding-related injuries in the
United States have not been described using national data.
Hypothesis: The number of injuries, injury diagnoses, and body regions injured vary by sport.
Study Design: Descriptive epidemiology study.
Methods: Data regarding water skiing– and wakeboarding-related injuries presenting to 98 hospital emergency departments in
the United States between January 1, 2001, and December 31, 2003, were extracted from the National Electronic Injury
Surveillance System. Data included demographics, injury diagnosis, and body region injured.
Results: Data were collected for 517 individuals with water skiing–related injuries and 95 individuals with wakeboarding-related
injuries. These injuries represent an estimated 23 460 water skiing– and 4810 wakeboarding-related injuries treated in US emergency
departments in 2001 to 2003. Head injuries represented the largest percentage of injuries for wakeboarders (28.8% of all
injuries) and the smallest percentage for water skiers (4.3%) (P < .01; relative risk [95% confidence interval], 6.73 [3.89-11.66]).
Analysis of injury diagnosis was consistent as wakeboarders had significantly more traumatic brain injuries (12.5% of all injuries)
than did water skiers (2.4%) (P < .05; relative risk [95% confidence interval], 5.27 [2.21-12.60]). Strains or sprains were the leading
injury diagnoses for water skiing (36.3% of all injuries), and the majority (55.7%) were to the lower extremity. Lacerations
were the most common diagnoses for wakeboarders (31.1% of all injuries), and the majority (59.6%) were to the face.
Conclusion: The analyses of water skiing– and wakeboarding-related injuries treated in US emergency departments in 2001 to 2003
highlight the differences in injury patterns for these 2 sports. The substantial number of head and facial injuries among wakeboarders
underscores the need for research on the potential role of helmets or other protective gear to reduce these common injuries.

as far as my searches have led me, this "research" has not been done (at least not to its full potential) and is more than over-due

i'm gona consider driving back and forth to my school (5 and 1/2 hour one way) after graduation and take my professors offer to use the lab... that is if it can be done in 5 or less days... hopefully. I'll let you all know if i pursue it.

I wore one all last yr I wasnt stoked on it but whatever. 100 + days of riding. This yr I have been riding without one. Last night i caught a back edge and when i got in the boat i was dizzy and my sight was blured, We went back to my house right away.It didnt get better and i felt worse and worse. I went to the urgent care and they said i have a concussion. great! today i feel like crap and still cant concentate or think straight. I am way out of it. Hmmm I think i need to break out my helmet agian.

sorry snippy tyno (and everyone else) if it seems i have totally hijacked the thread. But at least i am staying with the topic.


I wanted to get a quick poll of the helmets (particularly brand) that people wear and if there is anything particular about it that you chose it for (thinking functional aspects, not "because the price was better")

...maybe this might provide peeps with some help on which helmet to buy and will help me weed out a helmet i MIGHT do some testing on, if i do some testing.

no prob, I am a novice wakeboarder and had my bell rang a few times last year and wondered if I should wear one. Being an ex football player I shook them off but Im worried about saftey and you have posted a lot of good points. I am busting the helmet I bought for sking but it is also doubled to be a watersport helmet as well. Keep the info comming.

Well, here is an update.
Ive been doing lots of research and talking as some of you know.

I talked with a Fluid Mechanics teacher yesterday for 20 min or so. here is what i got from the discussion

1. golf-ball dimples (or any other surface modification to the helmet) will most likely not have any beneficial effect. He quickly explained the "Reynolds number" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number) and used it for some quick calculations and said that due to the higher density of water and the larger size of the head as compared to air and a golf ball that dimples wont work. I feel a little discourged knowing (in theory) that it seems that surface modifications won't work

2. coming to a quick conclusion, he said that a helmet in wakerideing would probably cause as much harm as it prevents. Again doing some quick calculations using 6" as the head's diameter and 8" as the helmet's diameter (1 inch thickness on helmet) that the impact is quite greater. But this is in exclusion of what the padding can do to dampen that increase. However, regardless of what the padding can do to compensate for the greater surface area, it seems that there is nothing to dampen torques on the cervical spine.

I still do not consider myself an expert by any degree, neither did the fluid mechanics teacher i talked to, acknowledging that there are other subject matters at play in this controversial subject that he knows little about. I am going to talk to another fluid mechanics teacher next week to get another opinion and to help myself to better understand things, because i know practically nothing about fluid mechanics.

anyway, there it is (so far). take it with a grain of salt, add some comments or findings of your own, etc.

Dude im just gonna write to myth busters and have them figure this crap out.lol no seriously

Snippy- No expert here, but I've noticed a huge difference when helmet is on....

Also, you can try this simple test.... put on a helmet and have a friend hit you on the head with the flat side of a shovel..... Then repeat the exercise without the helmet.

While it might not be effective if they hit you on the face, you may notice a difference if the hit is anywhere on the helmet....(plus it keeps you warmer in winter)

If anyone writes myth busters they should work it from the angle that helmets actually increase injury in wake riding. That would probably have a more interesting take and be more likely of getting picked up than say, "Helmets prevent injuries." The common public assumes that helmets would prevent injury so they wouldn't think it would be an interesting topic.

These three submissions have already been made to myth busters. check them first then see if it is necissary to make anew one, or make an additional comment on the mythbuster forum

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5261919888/m/3381990959
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5261919888/m/3381990959
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5261919888/m/6591957659

To summarize all the ideas of the controversy:

1. Of course there is no question as to whether it is a good idea to wear a helmet when there is a possibility to be hit by hard objects such as "shovels" and sliders and such

2. Will the increased surface area of the helmet increase forces associated with an impact on water enough to increase problems of concussion and/or cervical spine injuries? Water is a whole different medium than a shovel, slider, concrete, grass, etc. (a 20 min talk with a fluid dynamics professor suggested a high possibility of a "you win some you lose some situation" as stated above)

3. True, water feels more like a hard surface at faster speeds, but at what speed (if any) does a helmet cause (or not cause) as much other problems, as it prevents as mentioned in #2?

4. Is there something that can be done to the surface of the helmet (seems like the answer is no) to minimize the adverse effects of an increased surface area? keep in mind all angles, speeds, etc. of crashes.

5. Besides shape is there anything else that can be done to make helmets more safe than the current designs? Can the padding be changed for better safety? Will Neoprene material extending from the bottom edges of the helmet help to create a tighter fit to prevent "bucketing" [(when water enters the helmet, slowing the head down as air entering a parachute would slow any device) this is one of my favorite ideas i have come up with. look at the pic of the neoprene cap at the first of the thread and imagine it attached to a helmet)

6. Some ideas of a "soft" helmet for wakeriding have been suggested. although this is an option, i think the safety of the current helmets still needs to be evaluated and made better. After all, when riders hit sliders, they hit water too.

also, can this information be extrapolated for the benefit of other sports/ activities on water?

AT LEAST READ THE CONCLUSION AT THE END if you don't want to read all this

Saw the post about the bern helmet on whiskey and noticed for the first time a STANDARD for helmets in water and so i looked it up.
here are some details i'd like to highlight taken from these two web sites


http://helmets101.blogspot.com/

RF: Ah I see. What about the CE 1385, that seems like a small amount of energy.

TS: It is, but the people who helped right the whitewater helmet standard did not have any data to suggest how hard kayakers hit their heads. They thought about the vertical distance the head travels and also though about the water slowing the head down when flipping upside down. They set the standard with the best knowledge they had at the time.

RF: So we really don’t know how hard we hit our heads?

TS: Right we don’t. There is subjective or anecdotal evidence but I know of no studies with objective measurement of the forces of head impacts in whitewater.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.happy-2b.com/new/pages/CE1385.htm

CE 1385 Certification Helmets for canoeing and white water sports
Introduction
The most common head injury in canoeing and white water sports happens when a person strikes an underwater object after capsizing. Under these circumstances it is extremely unlikely that the speed of impact will be greater than 18 km/h (5 m/s) because this is the highest recorded rate of flow in a white water river.

This standard includes the International Canoe Federation classification of risks.

&

CE 1385 standard

This European Standard specifies requirements for helmets for canoeing and white water sports for use in waters of classes 1 to 4 as classified by the International Canoe Federation. The levels of protection recognize that most fatalities in canoeing and white water sports result from drowning after concussion and not from brain damage.
Click for large image
This standard is not intended to apply to helmets for use in extreme white water situations such as those where the jumping of high waterfalls is undertaken, because the need for impact absorption for such a helmet, and the area of the head to be protected, are greater than those for most canoeing and white water sports. The standard applies to helmets with and without holes in the shell.
NOTE: This standard does not provide performance requirements for visors, chin-
guards or face-guards.


All helmets loose their impact resistance over time. We reccomend that paddling helmets be replaced after every serious impact, and even if you never experience an impact, your lid needs to be replaced every third paddling season.
International Canoe Federation classification of risks.
Class 1 Not difficult. Regular current, small waves and riffles, occasional small rapids; pebble banks, no or few obstructions.
Class 2 Moderately difficult. Clear and wide passages; irregular current, rapids bigger waves, easy eddies, stopper and whirlpools; simple obstructions in the passage, small ledges.
Class 3 Difficult. Course not always easily to recognize. High and irregular waves, long rapids, stopper, boils and whirlpools; occasional boulders, drops and various obstructions in the passage.
Class 4 Very difficult. Course difficult to recognize, inspection from shore is advised; big hydraulics, keepers and boils; staggered boulders in main stream, ledges with keepers.
Class 5 Exceedingly difficult. Inspection from shore is mandatory; extreme hydraulics, keepers and boils; narrow in the only line of passage, high drops in cascades with difficult entrances and/or exits.
Class 6 The absolute limit of difficulty. Usually considered unrunnable. All previous mentioned difficulties increased to the limit of practicability. Attempts at certain water levels imply a high risk to life.
NOTE Helmets for use in water classes 5 and 6 are outside the scope of this standard. It is expected that these helmets will have performance requirements in excess of this standard.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quick conclusions (or assumptions if you will made from this info i have quickly gathered)

1. wakeboard helmets use info gathered from ESTIMATED whitewater sports which do not reach the speeds of wakeboarding

2. impacts are rated for rocks and debris while kayaking... so they are not rated for water impact specifically, except for maybe a roll over in white water... with consideration of hard objects

3. apparently these helmets are not rated/ recomended for "EXTREME- Kyayaking and white water" which is defined by going off cliffs and stuff. SOOOO... i guess considering this, helmets are not even as good as they should be for some of the stunts our favorite pros are doing. If you ask me, a big rail gap 20 feet or more in the air is DEFFINATELY EXTREME!!!

p.s. I am gona have to contact this "helmet school" sometime and ask some questions. maybe they will test it, especially if associated with shred ready.

ohh, and the standard/ certification is CE 1385. which most helmets are labled, even pro tech and other wake helmets. wakeboarding is not kayaking. but atleast we have something so i am at least thankful for that

(Message edited by wakerider111 on April 02, 2008)