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Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 11:41 AM Reply   
Who else loved this as much as I did?
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-09-2010, 11:44 AM Reply   
I loved hearing the Cheap Trick song, but the ad didn't make much sense to me. Basically, it mocks the entire green movement and then suggests that you buy their "green" car. Huh???
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 11:53 AM Reply   
I wasn't worried about their car. I was just enjoying what many of us think but is not often voiced in public.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 12:37 PM Reply   
"I was just enjoying what many of us think but is not often voiced in public."

So just what is it that you think? Or are you afraid to voice it in public?
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 12:54 PM Reply   

I enjoyed the ad. Perhaps you didn't. Both being OK.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 1:14 PM Reply   
German cars especially Audi's are my favorites, and I would love to own a TDI wagon. I have owned more than a few Audi's myself and I am currently the only one in my family to not own a German car at this time. A Sprinter conversion is in my future though.

The ad was interesting and brought about some of the issues people are struggling with today. It also highlighted some things people are ignorant of. Making a mockery of something is a good way to bring it to the general public as it will be accepted yet also starts opening their eyes.

So you are afraid of being baited or rather speaking you mind. I see...
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       02-09-2010, 1:18 PM Reply   
Cheap trick! - Of course, they may have ruined that song for me now.

I'm surprised they didn't pull the Volkswagen driver back to the side when he illegally pushed the throttle down too far when he took off thereby wasting excessive fuel on acceleration
Old    deltahoosier            02-09-2010, 1:41 PM Reply   
First thing that came to mind is that commercial is what Obama's America would look like if people would let him. It reminds me of the laws the green facists are trying to pass. I know it is a little over the top but it gives me the exact vibe.
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 1:51 PM Reply   
I'm all for environmentalism, reducing pollution and impact on the environment, conserving resources. I'm an outdoorsman. At the same time, I'm touchy about people/groups telling others how to live as if there's a "right" way (theirs). This goes for both/all sides of the political fence. The add struck that cord in an obviously over-the-top, funny way. There is much irony in the add; that on the way to doing good, freedoms can be lost, ridiculously so, and harm can be done. Life is about balance, juggling conflicting things. The add illustrated this conflict in a funny way. Each of us finds our own balance, and collectively through that, society finds its balance.

I have spoken my mind.

And I too, own a German car.

(Message edited by ottog1979 on February 09, 2010)
Old     (loveronix)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-09-2010, 2:12 PM Reply   
At first glance it appears Audi is merely cashing in on the eco frenzy to sell its low emission automobiles. The larger agenda is to get the plebs accustomed to the idea that their lifestyles are crimes against the earth and in response government must tax, fine, and even arrest violators. It is part of a propaganda effort to soften citizens up to a global carbon tax and fascist police state methods in order to enforce the a new green orthodoxy.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 2:36 PM Reply   
Green fascists vs the ignorant...which one is more dangerous and actually kills people? Hmmm...

Remember this from my organic garden? All the plastic was pulled from two small garden boxes.

The only way to this beach is by goat trail, and it is far from any major city.

This is 1/8 of what we took off of this remote beach. There was much more deposited from the last big storm.

Any of these items look familiar? Maybe even some from the Audi commercial?

Remember plastics have a thousand year life span and break down into smaller and smaller particles until they become part of the food chain that we all eat.

Got fish? Not for long...The ocean is already fished out and the streams/Delta can no longer produce fingerlings locally, hence no more salmon season in CA for many years to come.

Really sucks there are things your grand kids will never get to do or see, because people today have polluted or eaten the resources around us.

The sad reality is people do not take ownership and therefore must be told what to do by laws. It was not long ago dumping your oil down the gutter was considered normal, and that was in my lifetime. Today there is an environmental law that fines people if they do dump illegally. The right thing to do today is not use consumable plastic, yet people still do. Hence the ad's call on the guy grocery shopping asking for plastic bags. Everyone knows the plastic grocery bags are bad for the environment and use oil resources but few choose to use cloth bags which are superior, due to laziness. Banning plastic grocery bags has already become a law in many other countries and is very successful. It is a matter of time before it hits all 50 states. Either take it upon yourself to do the "right" thing or expect to see laws put in place to force you to do so.

What is the solution? Education? Who pays for the education?

Learn to love and protect your surroundings that we call home...
Old     (mammoth)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-09-2010, 2:38 PM Reply   
Trying here since the post about the illiterate crackhead and the lunatic didn't get the response you were hoping for huh ronix?

Really...there are much more creative ways to troll.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-09-2010, 3:17 PM Reply   
Either take it upon yourself to do the "right" thing or expect to see laws put in place to force you to do so.

Woah... woah! The "right" thing? According to who?
How dare you shove your ideals down my throat.

Sound familiar?
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 4:02 PM Reply   
Don't worry Barry they have laws for people like you

Ideals are not something I can shove down your throat and if you choose to do differently then that is your choice. If you choose not to do the right things in life you are part of the problem in society not the solution.

BTW in this case they are not ideals, as much as they are facts that are indisputable. Prove me wrong that plastic has not entered the ocean and the food chain. Go ahead I dare you! Sheesh, argumentative for the right of standing up for your constitutional rights, even though you know there are things we have to curb to protect the planet for future generations.

Example of the "right" thing to do. "Giving someone their money back when what you sold failed before they had a chance to use it." The product may have been sold as is, but the right thing to do is to refund the money isn't it? Keeping the money may be within your legal rights, but that doesn't make it "right" in the sense of brotherhood.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-09-2010, 4:22 PM Reply   
I love you, Peter... you're awesome! :-)

I do not disagree with you. It's only prudent to be mindful of our waste and usage.
I'm pretty good at failing to get my point across. I have years of experience.
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 4:32 PM Reply   
"choose not to do the right things in life"

This is the problem. The "right" thing. This can be debated endlessly with many and opposing views all being valid in their context.

The right way right way to be a recreational boater, for instance. I noticed some plastic in that boat of yours, in addition to that two-stroke outboard (the GP is towing from your driveway as we speak). Is that right? Is it necessary? With some people yes, with others no. Is recreational power boating (wakeboarding) right? What about that plastic computer you're typing on? ...Using electricity to be on non-necessary websites like this one (on it's own plastic computers using electricity). Is life as we know it possible without plastic? Is reducing plastic waste a good thing? Sure. I'm all for it. But who determines who gets what amount of plastic? Who determines all this? Who should we trust to make laws allowing us what we can do?

Going over-board with well-intended PC, the commercial was an attention getter. I liked that.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 4:42 PM Reply   
Your points are often only ones of rights and how you do not like being told what to do.

You conveniently leave out the part where you say, "you know I agree with you about X". "I just wish they didn't impose that stuff on me". "Otherwise I am more than happy to oblige". Or something along those lines.

Don't feel bad, I have years of trying to get my point across too, and it often falls upon Someone Else's def ears.

Edit: Andy you are right for saying at what point does the debate begin and end. No one so far as said an absolute. When talking about plastic it is about things like plastic bags and unnecessary packaging, but even more important is making sure it gets to the right place, be it the hazardous waste area, recycled, or into the landfill. Throwing it on the ground when you are done with a package, can, or bottle is ridiculous and shows a huge lack of respect for everyone around you.

Unfortunately everything they showed in the video will become reality in one form or another. The plastic grocery bag will be banned soon enough, the fluorescent light bulbs already have huge tax credits ($.99 for four at Costco) and save you money, the alkaline battery recycling is already in place, and yes fuel efficient vehicles are here to stay.

(Message edited by peter_c on February 09, 2010)
Old     (loveronix)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-09-2010, 4:57 PM Reply   
We can all do our share to Reduce, Reuse, Recycle but the whole global warming thing is just a scam. We are already suffering from this CO2 silliness in many ways. Our energy policy has been strictly hobbled by the prohibiting of new refineries and of drilling for decades. We pay for the shortage this has created every time we buy gas. On top of that, the whole issue of corn based ethanol costs us millions of tax dollars in subsidies, which also has driven up food prices. All of this is a long way from over.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-09-2010, 5:21 PM Reply   
I wasn't aware that's how my posts on Wakeworld are viewed. I make no apology for standing up for my rights. I will do almost anything you ask of me, but once you start demanding you're out of bounds and liable to catch an earful. Obviously sensible laws are an exception. Emphasis on sensible.
It is not sensible to me that while we are dependent on fossil fuels we can't extract from our own soil and are at the mercy of foreign oil tycoons.
It is not sensible to me that the Central Valley's water supply is cut-off killing our local farm land putting thousands of people out of work and driving up produce costs due to a non-native smelt in the Delta region.
It is not sensible to me that I cannot change parts of my vehicle unless they are "approved", even though in many cases the parts will reduce my emissions and increase fuel economy.
It is no sensible to me that we can only water our lawns on Sunday, Tuesday and Friday and if we're observed wasting water we incur a fine.My water main broke at about 1:00am spilling enough water to literally flood 3 blocks west and a block and a half east..The "water patrol" drove by and snapped a picture at 5:23am and we received a citation in the mail. He never bothered to let us know so we could stop the waste he so eagerly patrols for.

ad infinitum....

Peter, I dislike stupidity, manipulation and extortion and if that makes me appear to be the type of fella who doesn't like being told what to do, then I guess I am that guy.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-09-2010, 5:27 PM Reply   
and for the record, Peter..
From what I've seen your approach to waste and usage are sensible. Man made global warming is nonsense and any laws imposed based on man made global warming are nonsense. Follow the money.
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 5:52 PM Reply   

I am with you on much of what you have to say. I am an avid recycler. I bring my trash home in the car to put in the recycler instead of tossing it in the trash at the store. I'm the guy that gets out of the car at the stop light to hand the trash back to the guy that just threw it out of his window in the car ahead of me (I know, one day I'll get shot doing this). Like you, I pick up & carry out trash on hikes. I've got low flow shower heads and water my yard sparingly. I have a second car instead of driving the tow vehicle for a daily driver. On & on.

My point is that people respond MUCH better to positive reasons to change, not because other people deem it right and tell them they must. Nobody likes being told or ordered what to do. Instead, they respond much better to examples and ideas on how it or they can make it better.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 5:56 PM Reply   
Ronix, why did you bring up global warming? Who cares about global warming anyhow. Pollution is our largest issue at this time. As to the refineries and drilling did it ever occur to you that they want to drill in protected marine areas? They are protected for a keep companies out! I know from our chairs we may never see the drilling going on off our coast, but I also respect the need for protected marine areas. We are having a huge fight over the MLPA's on our coast and they are closing a lot of the coastal areas down to fishing. Many people are upset, but it has been proven to be effective in studies over and over, and will actually enhance the fishing in other areas. "Sometimes" things are actually done for a good reason, sometimes...

Barry, thanks for saying you feel I am sensible in my approach. I appreciate it :-) I know you often ride the opposite side of the fence as me, and that is okay. Please be sure you are on the side of the fence that allows future generations to survive.

As to following the money, heck just look in any politicians bank account and that is where you start tracing it backwards (Except maybe our Govenator). I HATE politics!
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 6:07 PM Reply   
Andy, you are a better man than I originally thought you were. You last post left a great impression on me.

I do not believe I said any where in post that you must do something and no where did I order anyone to do something. I did say that either humans need to make changes as a society or laws will be put into effect to force them to. I don't like laws anymore than the next guy.

Here is an all time classic saying, "Help enough people and you will help yourself".
Old     (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-09-2010, 6:34 PM Reply   
Some laws, however, are bulls**t. Although, I'm sure there will be much disagreement over which ones are the right ones!
Old     (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-09-2010, 9:12 PM Reply   
"If you choose not to do the right things in life you are part of the problem in society not the solution". -Peter are either a teacher, Firefighter/Paramedic, Doctor...or some other profession that directly helps donate all of your free time to the needy, hungry and never wear, use or eat anything that is made or processed by Man, in other words, you are perfect. People like you need to know how to reign in the self-righteousness, and realize most people dont care what you think of them. As if your opinion matters.
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-09-2010, 9:35 PM Reply   
Smug alert
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-09-2010, 9:41 PM Reply
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-09-2010, 9:51 PM Reply   
Howie, I wouldn't have expected less of you.

Although how did you come to the conclusion that one must devote every hour of every day to some form of helping others? Self-righteousness? LOL you are being creative. Are you on drugs? I thought they tested you guys routinely?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-09-2010, 10:40 PM Reply   
Peter is right on about plastic bag's. I hate them & try never to take or use one. It's funny how people @ the store look at you funny when you say no bag and carry 10 items in your hand, It's like they are programed to give you a plastic bag and a receipt that's 10 feet long and when you say no to it they are so confused.
Old     (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-10-2010, 4:52 AM Reply   
Your coveted Spectra or Dyneema line is made of the same substance as the plastic grocery bag....

The the plastic bags take less energy to produce than paper bags.

The plastic bags generate a fraction of the production waste as the paper bags.

So, if people did the "right thing" by recycling and kept the bags from littering, wouldn't we be better off using plastic bags?

Maybe the only way to really regulate the plastic grocery bag is to eliminate the source chemical from the supply chain.....

While most laws have great intentions, the law of unintended consequences rears its ugly head more often than not. Tread lightly, both on the earth and on the rights of others.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-10-2010, 11:27 AM Reply   
Karl, you are right in plastic does take less energy than paper, except paper is not the answer cloth bags are and every grocery store I have been to offers a discount for bringing in your own bags. Less than 1% of the plastic bags ever get recycled so people do not do the "right thing" by recycling.

This entire article is a great read

Introduced just over 25 years ago, the ugly truth about our plastic bag addiction is that society's consumption rate is now estimated at well over 500,000,000,000 (that's 500 billion) plastic bags annually, or almost 1 million per minute.

# Single-use bags made of high-density polyethylene (HDPE) are the main culprit. Once brought into existence to tote your purchases, they'll accumulate and persist on our planet for up to 1,000 years.

# Australians alone consume about 6.9 billion plastic bags each year, that's 326 per person. According to Australia's Department of Environment, an estimated 49,600,000 annually end up as litter.

# In 2001, Ireland used 1.2 billion disposable plastic bags, or 316 per person. An extremely successful plastic bag tax, or PlasTax, introduced in 2002 reduced consumption by 90%.

# According to The Wall Street Journal, the U.S. goes through 100 billion plastic shopping bags annually. An estimated 12 million barrels of oil is required to make that many plastic bags.

# Four out of five grocery bags in the US are now plastic.

# Plastic bags cause over 100,000 sea turtle and other marine animal deaths every year when animals mistake them for food.

# In a dramatic move to stem a tide of 60,000 metric tons of plastic bag and plastic utensil waste per year, Taiwan banned both last year.

# According to the BBC, only 1 in 200 plastic bags in the UK are recycled.

# According to the WSJ Target, the second-largest retailer in the U.S., purchases 1.8 billion bags a year.

# As part of Clean Up Australia Day, in one day nearly 500,000 plastic bags were collected. Unfortunately, each year in Australia an estimated 50,000,000 plastic bags end up as litter.

# The average family accumulates 60 plastic bags in only four trips to the grocery store.

# Each high quality reusable bag you use has the potential to eliminate an average of 1,000 plastic bags over its lifetime. The bag will pay for itself if your grocery store offers a $.05 or $.10 credit per bag for bringing your own bags.

# Windblown plastic bags are so prevalent in Africa that a cottage industry has sprung up harvesting bags and using them to weave hats, and even bags. According to the BBC one group harvests 30,000 per month.

Lightweight plastic grocery bags are additionally harmful due to their propensity to be carried away on a breeze and become attached to tree branches, fill roadside ditches or end up in public waterways, rivers or oceans. In one instance, Cape Town, South Africa, had more than 3000 plastic grocery bags that covered each kilometre of road (Ryan and Rice, 1996). In this century, an estimated 46,000 pieces of plastic are floating in every square kilometre of ocean worldwide (Baker, 2002).
3.1B Impacts on Wildlife
Most distressing, over a billion seabirds and mammals die annually from ingestion of plastics (Baker, 2002). In Newfoundland, 100,000 marine mammals are killed each year by ingesting plastic (Brown, 2003). However, the impact of plastic bags does not end with the death of one animal; when a bird or mammal dies in such a manner and subsequently decomposes, the plastic bag will again be released into the environment to be ingested by another animal.

Welcome to the LA River system, where pollution is a BIG problem.
Old     (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-10-2010, 11:33 AM Reply   
Your coveted Spectra or Dyneema line is made of the same substance as the plastic grocery bag....

The the plastic bags take less energy to produce than paper bags.

The plastic bags generate a fraction of the production waste as the paper bags.

So, if people did the "right thing" by recycling and kept the bags from littering, wouldn't we be better off using plastic bags?

Maybe we would be better of in being proactive instead of always being so reactionary.

How about, all of this stuff should be made using hemp...
Old     (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-10-2010, 11:44 AM Reply   
It is not sensible to me that while we are dependent on fossil fuels we can't extract from our own soil and are at the mercy of foreign oil tycoons.

Use up their oil before we use our own, if we didn't have our own they could really bend us over the barrel
Old     (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-10-2010, 12:19 PM Reply   
The unintended consequence of re-using bags has been in uptick in the food borne illness rates. There never will be a perfect solution - there always is a side effect.

Wash your bags frequently.

Or, do what I do and shop at Sam's Club a lot where they don't use bags. Buying in bulk saves packaging overall. It works for our family of 5. It may not work for smaller families where most may go to waste. Again, no easy solution.

Regarding beach debris and trash. I headed a program to both collect and educate. After 4-years of doing both, we had a 60% reduction in trash on the beaches. The one thing we could not impact was the beach becoming an ashtray for smokers. Those numbers stayed constant.
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2010, 12:33 PM Reply   
Peter, I literally drive over that part of the LA river everyday, its right next to Playa Vista and Marina del Rey and I can honestly say I have never seen it look like that. Ill even snap a photo of it tonight on my way back to Manhattan Beach.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-10-2010, 1:20 PM Reply   
Well Mike BRO you must be blind! Cause the boom has been there since 2001.

Watch this video and they specifically target that area half way through the video.
"Water board moves to enforce ban on trash in L.A. River: Cities along the watershed are required by 2016 to keep all trash out of their storm drains"

"Regional water quality officials on Thursday put some teeth into their long campaign to cleanse the Los Angeles River system of the tons of trash that turn it into a movable landfill after major storms.

Standards previously adopted by the Los Angeles Water Quality Control Board give cities along the watershed until 2016 to keep all trash out of their storm drains.

On Thursday, the board incorporated those limits into storm water permits, putting municipalities that don’t meet the requirements in violation of the federal Clean Water Act. Until now there had been no penalty for noncompliance.

“It’s taken two decades to get to this point,” board vice-chair Madelyn Glickfeld said after the 5-0 vote. “If we hadn’t done this today, it would have been a signal” to cities “to relax, guys.”

During storms, tons of trash and plastic debris wash up in municipal drains that empty into the Los Angeles River and its tributaries. The trash floating at the river’s mouth in Long Beach can be so thick that it is hard to see any water. In the unusually wet winter of 2005, Long Beach hauled more than 12,000 tons of garbage out of the river. …"

"Cranes picking up garbage debris after first rain of the season. The Garbage boom on the Los Angeles River in Long Beach was built in 2001. Urban runoff carries an assortment of trash and debris from catch basins where a network of pipes and open channels create a pathway to the Ocean. The man made debris can include plastic bags and bottles, Styrofoam cups, cans, tires, and household furniture. After the first major storm of the season, the boom may collect over 50,000 pounds of trash."

Maybe you also do not see a lot of garbage because of these types of people: "A diverse group of 2,000 volunteers gathered, to clean up the soft-bottomed Glendale Narrows section of the Los Angeles River."
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2010, 2:15 PM Reply   
Not blind treehugger, the boom is there correct, theres just no trash in it. Ill post a pic of the boom with no trash tonight while my blind eyes drive past it.
Old     (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       02-10-2010, 2:31 PM Reply   
You are right, I love tree's they make me money. I just wish they were worth more right now so we could sell at a higher profit. They need to close the import of wood from Canada which Clinton did and Bush rescinded. Our local mill closed after that and we have to truck the wood further now at a higher cost.

"After the first major storm of the season, the boom may collect over 50,000 pounds of trash"

Well duh! They clean it out.
Old     (timmy)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-10-2010, 2:50 PM Reply   
Add to that you can't (shouldn't) surf for 3+ days after a storm in socal, thanks to the pollution.
Old     (mammoth)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-10-2010, 3:15 PM Reply   
I think the one thing that Peter's posts prove is that the people of the LA area are disgusting and don't deserve to live in California.
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2010, 3:36 PM Reply   
"Add to that you can't (shouldn't) surf for 3+ days after a storm in socal, thanks to the pollution."

Isnt that because of the storm drains that basically drain sewer and oil from the roads into the ocean?
Old     (sjmedic)      Join Date: May 2004       02-10-2010, 6:24 PM Reply   
As well you shouldn't expect anything less from me. Someone has got to keep people like you on a short leash, or we will all be wearing loincloths and skateboarding to work. And as far as drugs go, you answered your own question genius. Now YOUR LSD use has definitely caught up with you. I dont take exception to your ideas, only your self righteousness and smugness over your own sense of self worth.
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2010, 7:20 PM Reply   
From the LA river at the exact spot of the photo you attached above from God knows when


Keep in mind, there was a storm yesterday, 2 days last week and 5 days 2 weeks before. Causing mudslides in the hills but apparantly not inundating the LA River with trash like you so liberally posted above.
Old     (mike_gilbert)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2010, 7:35 PM Reply   
PeterC=Kyles Dad
Old     (loveronix)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-10-2010, 8:07 PM Reply   
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       02-10-2010, 8:33 PM Reply   
Of course all of us should try and do everything we can to keep our planet clean. On the flip side the whole green movement goes far beyond just being diligent. I think the commercial is scary, because it very well could be a sign of things to come. When you start passing ridiculous laws that tell you what light bulbs to buy, cars to drive etc... then we are in big trouble. If anyone really thinks the environment is going to change because you have different light bulbs in your home or office or drive a so called greener vehicle then you are on crack or drinking wayyyyy to much Koolaide. Each of us can do our part to make it a better place to live, but don't take it to the extreme and turn it into a whacko religion.


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