Tower speaker question

I see that a couple websites have the Bullet 650 and 770 HLCD tower speakers for 40% off. I'm definately going to pick up one pair but thinking about two pair. Is one pair of quality HLCD tower speakers really enough sound? Is having two pair more just for sheer volume and/or bragging rights? Seems like everyone running 4+ tower speakers, cabin speakers, and a sub, you're getting into 3+ amplifiers then having to think about alternator upgrades. My boat has dual batteries already with the factory stereo.

A.J.

If you're going with a single pair then I would recommend the HollowPoint 770s. The larger surface area does make a difference in an open-field. Properly powered with 150 true watts per speaker, and you can use more, one pair will comfortably reach the rider under noisy conditions with plenty of volume and good intelligibility and without having to stress the speakers or amplification.

You can check out the HollowPoint Youtube video. The individual who recorded it said he could hear the speakers clearly several hundred feet away.

There are alot of reasons to run multiples including 'he who has the biggest toys wins.' I'm all in favor of that! But for me the reason to run two pair would be so I can run everything more conservatively. Running under capacity means sharper clarity and less compression. Two pair definitely sound warmer and are more responsive to resetting the tone controls for SQ situations when beached or anchored.

Class D amplifiers offer a nice solution if you're concerned about current draw.

HLCDs are so powerful and you get so much ambient radiation from above that many minimize their cabin speakers while pulling.

Also, with a decent AC shore charger and good charging habits you can extend your play time at rest and remove alot of stress off your alternator. There's much more on that subject if you're interested.

David
Earmark Marine

Sent you a PM David

A.J. On my last boat I started with one Wetsounds 485 on the tower. I didn't want to blast the whole lake with my music. The problem I found was that I had to drive it hard and the amp ran warm. I added a pair of Pro 80s and the overall sound behind the boat got more clear and with the second amp added they both ran a lot cooler. I would recommend bitting the bullet and getting two sets. You wont have to drive them as hard for great sound.

Running under capacity means sharper clarity and less compression.

Meaning keeping the gains down or showing them less watts?

Thats gotta be nu bu's video on you tube.

that is nubu`s video and that video while good still does not due them justice. My girl is the one that shot the video. In person we could still hear him after we were done filming and had walked up the road to are car. another 2-3 minutes and he was literaly across the lake.

Oh I know I have 4 of the 770's with 225 watts going to each. I've had two friends that were at houses not even on the lake call me when I was out to tell me they could hear them. They're such a killer value right now. I got a great deal on mine and still paid a few hundred more than you could pick em up for right now.

Where are you finding these deals if i may ask?

Quick question, I was looking at getting a pair of these, but someone told me that they thought these were on sale because the company is going out of business (ie. warranty would be worthless). Can anybody confirm this? Because this is a great price but dont want to buy speakers that dont have a warranty.

Bullet's website and Earmark have the same prices. I'll be making the drive to Earmark even though it's a few hours away.

jkw, it could be true but I'd get them anyway at the price they're offered at. I've had no issues at all and I puuush mine. I've been wanting to order a 3rd pair but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Hate N Pain - thanks

That Video is impressive but that does not take into consideration wind and water noise. Someone needs to shoot a vid behind the boat, say on a tube while moving.

A.J. West - You can't go wrong getting them from Earmark. David and his crew will bend over backwards to make you a satisfied customer.

What's a good amp for the 770's? I know the preferred one, but that seems a bit steep. I wouldn't mind picking up another kicker amp.

Should I get a 4 channel, 2, or mono since it won't be stereo anyways.

I'm just going to get one pair of speakers right now since I'm not made of $$. Possibly might add another pair later when I get rich, so if I can pay a few extra dollars for an amp that I could expand on that would be great.

Excuse the thread hyjack, but it looked about done.

I use the recommended one and stole it off ebay from a dealer that went out of business. You should be able to find the GTG-28 on there for pretty cheap as they have redone all their amps. If you want kicker get the ZX 850.2 It'll be a lot for them at 4 ohms but they can handle it and you can just keep the gains down plus it'll be ready to go when you add a second pair.

Todd,

A bridged four-channel is ideal for one pair of 4-ohm 770s in order to extract full power. I like the JL Audio G4500. Use a large two-channel amplifier for two pair 770s which in parallel present a 2-ohm load. In this case, my preference is dual JL Audio G1300 monoblocks. We're actually doing this exact set-up monday. Maybe we'll get a video. In any case, give HLCDs all the power they deserve.

jkw,

That's an awful rumor. Sounds like its being propagated by someone motivated by sour grapes. But you can ignore it because from what I see Bullet Speakers is behaving proactively in all respects of their business and only an ongoing concern does that.

Hate,

Here's what I meant by, "running under capacity means sharper clarity and less compression." It's not related to the gains and I prefer excessive power even though I personally don't listen to music as loud as others.

Let's say your music program material has 18 dB of inherent dynamic range. That translates to a 1 to 64 power ratio between the background passages that must overcome the ambient noise level and the foreground peaks like the full attack of a rim shot. As you approach the full capability of your amplifier this power ratio gets seriously compressed. So even though I don't want the extra power to drive the average volume higher, I want an inexhaustible supply for the transient nature of music. I hear those extra peak reserves as improved dynamic range, in other words, greater contrast, clarity and realism. I never want the limits of my system exposed under normal listening conditions.

David
Earmark Marine

^^^Not to mention they are only putting their HLCD's on sale and none of their other products i.e. Towers, racks, lights, coaxial tower speakers.

So David, your doing two 300 watt monoblock amps for four tower speakers? Why not just use one 4 x 150. Also Phil from kicker is always saying he hates running a 4 channel in bridged mode. Why do you think that is? Just trying to understand and learn. Also thanks for the explanation.

Hate how did you know??? I love the bullets, much better than any other tower speakers I've heard. Not saying other tower speakers aren't good and loud, just don't like the way they sound. I'd like to hear some of the competition with only 150 watts running them.

Jamie Futch I'd love to pull you on a tube behind my boat .

Pain: Here's a few things for everyone to noodle on... what David brings up about running a system within its capacity almost warrants a thread of its own. Your follow up question touches on the same thing yet coming from a different angle.

A closer look at what happens to an amplifier being played beyond its limits goes something like this.... (I wont get to tweaky on you but it will be long winded). Input signal comes into the amplifier in DC volts. Usually 2-6V or if a line driver is used you might get upwards of 6-10V. Without getting into a whole bunch of technology within the amplifier suffice to say its exiting the amplifier in AC volt form. When an amplifier is operating within its limits she gives you that nice clean AC signal exiting to the speaker or woofer. If its over driven, i.e. starts to clip internally its because the amplifiers rail voltage is being exceeded. As it approaches its ceiling thats where you get that ugly compression and lack of transient (power supply cant keep up). Once it is driven beyond that rail voltage say for this example 35 volts, the part of the signal that goes beyond actually turns into a DC square wave. Once this happens the amplifier is clipping and actually sending your speaker or woofer DC volts and its this situation that heats up and starts cooking your voice coils (horns, tweeters, subs - it doesn't matter). Once this happens it doesn't take much time to kill your speaker as the VCoil is usually an aluminum former and warps easy. Assuming for a moment that you havent destroyed the speaker yet... thhe amplifier is operating in what we call mixed clip mode. If you looked at this visually on a scope what you'd see is the whole top part of your music signal being obliterated as the amplifier fails to operate beyond ability. The amount of time it clips off the top of the signal is the amount of time your sending DC volts on down the line to the speaker.

Now, let me tie this all into what you asked about your 4 channel question. There are really two parts to why an amplifier gets itself into trouble. I ran you through output stage compression / clipping. But you brought up a very real problem on the other side of any given amplifier.... Input / power supply clipping. If the power supply cant keep up it will sag. If the amplifier doesnt get a good source of voltage/current it will start trying to make rated power if it has hard regulation circuitry. Confusing stuff really, but the point about running a 4 channel amplifier in bridged mode is that you have to ask, "How well can the power supply keep up?" I'm not sure about the kicker (maybe someone can chime in) but in my own product line we have a big bad boy Xi800.4 that has dual power supplies. on this amplifier it handles higher rail voltages and the dual power supplies work independently from one another (ch 1/2 have one and 3/4 another). All that greatness is not without cost however. We also have an S400.4 which in turn has lower rail voltage ability and a single power supply. Dual power supplies sound like a great idea but remember, if you dont feed your amplifier the current it needs... It wont matter, you'll still see it fail.

In summary, the trick is just as David said. Keep your system running within its capability for maximum performance and life is good. Going beyond, and things get nasty, fast. Remember, there's no magic, Just physics.

-Brian
Exile Audio

I will chime in with David and Brian and agree.. It is all about operating at all times totally within tolerance, with a comfortable margin of extra power, just to prevent going to the ragged edge. That is what we call headroom.

An analogy can be made with automobile motors. For the same car, being driven in the same way, picture two different motors. One is a a 4-cylinder turbocharged motor really straining to make all the performance. The other is a V-8 that is delivering all the power of the 4-cylinder, but is doing it at oh, 2,000 RPM for example. Both engines are making the car perform similarly, but the 4-cyliner is on the ragged edge of its performance capabilities, while the V-8 has plenty of oomph still to go. Which motor is likely to fail first? Which one is for sure running hotter?

I discourage purchasing 4-channel amplifiers for running 4-ohm stereo pairs primarily due the the fact that you can usually buy a similarly powerful 2-channel amplifier to run the same stereo pair. In effect, I am recommending that you buy a V-8 instead of trying to make the 4-cyliner work.

Many speakers have an impedance that is dynamically below 4-ohms, and when connected to a 4-channel bridged amplifier, you many times are operating the amp at a load that is lower than its rated impedance. Operation at lower than rated impedance requires a ton of current, makes the amp hot, or even shuts it down; it is like you are driving that 4-cylinder motor with the gas pedal floored...

If instead, you use a big stereo amp that will deliver the speaker's rated power at 4-ohms you are using an amp that for the same volume output will run cooler, will sound better, and will usually have some headroom, as it is not being run out to its ragged edge. You can "bump the gas pedal" if you will and the whole system will still be okay.

Brian's summary is perfect.

I hope my analogy is a complement to what has already been stated, and hopefully clears up some confusion!

Phil
Kicker

Great analogy Phil made perfect sense. Thanks Brian as well its great to be able to glean from professionals that know their schitt David I certainly include you in there too.

nu bu, I used my batman powers of deduction.

So Phil,
I was originally going to buy the KICKER ZX650.4
to power a pair of tower speakers that have a 150W RMS @ 4 ohms and then use the other 2 channels to power 4 in-boat speakers that use 45W rms @ 4 ohms. I wanted to use a single 4 channel amp so I could easily fade my music from tower to boat with the head unit. Are you saying that this amp would not have enough ooooomph for this setup and I should split between 2 amps?

Brian,
When you are talking about supply current, isnt the alternator providing that to the amp and perhaps I should upgrade the alternator?

Nickster-

Your fader will work whether you have a 4-channel amp, or two separate amps, so fading is not the issue. The way you wire your RCA cables determines how the fading will work.

The wiring configuration you suggest will work, but I prefer to recommend a single speaker per amp channel for all full-range applications. Your in-boat situation where you want to run two speakers per amp channel for the in-boats goes against my best recommendations of one speaker per amp channel. I do not like running a full range amp at 2-ohms, (2 speakers per amp channel) because most full-range speakers these days have an impedance lower than 4-ohms, (really 3.2 - 3.6) and that loads the amp down BELOW the 2-ohm stability that most amps have.


The other issue specifically is with bridging, where you take two amp channels and use them to drive a single speaker. The same reasoning applies as above, because in reality each amp channel is loaded with a load that is lower then 2-ohms. My mantra has always been: if you are buying a pair of speakers, use a stereo amp to power them. If you are buying 4 speakers of similar power handling a 4-channel is fine. If you want to drive 6 speakers, buy a stereo amp and a 4-channel amp, or one of the 6-channel amps on the market.

In your application, I would buy a two-channel amp that will deliver 150 watts RMS to your tower speakers, and then get a 4-channel amp for the in-boat speakers that will deliver 45 - 60 watts RMS. Doing that allows you to go with a "one-speaker-per-amp-channel" system that will run cool, reliably, and with lots of headroom.

My exception to the rule is with subwoofers and subwoofer amps. Subs are pretty straight-forward 4-ohms, and these days there is no passive crossover in the circuit. Take that in combination with the fact that many if not most sub amps are digital these days, and you can count on running just about any digital sub amp into a pair of 4-ohm loads with no problem.

Zat clear things up? If not post back, I love to help!

Phil
Kicker



(Message edited by philwsailz on September 28, 2009)

I'm running 2 hlcd 7.7's with a true 250 watts per side and it is super clear and loud.

Is more louder? Yes, sometimes.
But, my stereo goes to 11, so that is one more than 10 already...

I actually had some kids making fun (not to my face, but I could hear them talking) of my 2 speaker setup while I was wiping down the boat the other day. I watched them walk to a inboard/outboard boat with a funky tower and about 8 6" coax's with dome tweeters. I actually laughed out loud knowing that my 2 would DESTROY their 8, or 10 or whatever car speakers.

Do it right! These Bullets are super awesome.

Thanks Phil, I understand and that makes sense....but one more question for you. I typically never drive the in boat speakers hard. If I am cranking on the tower speakers, I am faded 80% to the top so the in boat speakers are not being driven very hard. When I am in the boat listening to music, I am only driving 20% Tower 80% boat but the music is never really close to being very loud when listening in the boat. I guess my question is am I really taxing the amp that much? If that is the case, I will follow your suggestion. Good excuse to buy a new amp . Thanks for your expertise.

lifetimewarranty - True that!

Nickster-

Try this. One way is to go with the 650.4. That will get you 120 watts RMS to the tower speakers. Then wire the in-boat speakers in SERIES. This will deliver a minimum of 30 watts to each in-boat speaker, maybe even a little more. If you are running that half of the amp light anyway, the amp will like the lighter load even better. You might bump the gains a tiny bit for the in-boat half of the amp.

You could also go with the 850.4 which would get you a little extra power for the towers (175 watts RMS into 4-ohms) and will give you a little more than 85 watts RMS for each in-boat speaker with the same series wiring. That there would be the fo-sure definition of headroom; just a tiny little bit of extra power for each and every speaker!

Let me know what you think!

Phil
Kicker

Thanks Phil,
I will most likely go for the 850.4. Didn't know Kicker made one past the 650.4.

Almost back to the original question, 650 vs 770? I have not seen the 770's on sale, only the 650's. Can someone give me an idea of the sound quality difference between the two? I am looking to get 2 pair, so we do not have to revisit, the information already provided above. We have a "family" boat, 08 Supra 22, and not looking to rock the world. I was looking at a decent pair of coax speakers until the 650 went on sale. Simply looking to provide some nice tunes for the riders. Any help is appreciated.

Cooper,

Give David a call at Earmark Marine in Lewy. He has the 770's and the 650's with the monster discount. He can also cut you a sweet deal on the bullet coaxials if you want them in the boat. Here are his prices and you will not find a better guy to deal with plus you will be supporting a local dealer and have local help when needed.

Specials are as follows

Bullet HollowPoint 650HLCD in Black
Normally $799.99 Pair
Now $479.99

Bullet HollowPoint 650HLCD in Chrome
Normally $849.99 Pair
Now $539.99

Bullet HollowPoint 770HLCD in Black
Normally $899.99 Pair
Now $539.99

Bullet HollowPoint 770HLCD in Chrome
Normally $949.99 Pair
Now $599.99

Probably will make the 3hr drive up to Lewisville and see Dave this coming Monday and pick up two pair of 770's plus seek some advice.

A.J. West,

Make sure that you give the shop a call before you go. He is somtimes out visiting the local boat dealerships. Their operation is first class!

I have 4 770's Each pair is powered by an Alpine PDX4-100. The 200w per speaker sounds great. I would put them up against anything out there.

If I was to install 4 770s with two amps would I power the two right speakers off one amp and the two left speakers off the other? Or would it be better split each amp with one left and one right?

Not sure that it would matter Rich. As long as you split the RCA's left and right, then you would have an amp for the left pair and an amp for the right pair.

I have to ask why 2 amps. I have 4 HLCD's on my tower and I am using an Arc Audio KS 300.2. I am getting about 180 watts to each speaker and the amp is one of the most efficient on the market. Never overheats and very low current draw.

Yeah guys just run them of off a 2 channel at 2 ohms like Murphy and I are. If you get a good amp thats efficient you'll have no problems. It's not that Chris' is set up wrong but its more expensive and won't gain you much if anything.

Cooper, you won't be disappointed with the 650's but you'll always know there are bigger ones out there.

Rich,

I have a super clean Arc Audio KS 300.2 for sale. I can make you a super sweet deal, PM me if you are interested.

Murphy

Murph that looks like a sweet amp. If I didn't pay less than that for my JL HD amp I would have picked one of those up.

Cooper,

Good looking boat!

If it matters, you have the option of black or chrome grills, black or polished collars and black or matching red powdercoated pods.

There are applications where the smaller 650s are a better fit, can go six across or looked balanced on a small I/O or Jetboat. But for your boat I recommend the added surface area of the larger 770s. Its great leverage to have in an open-field and noisy environment.


Rich,

If you're running dual monoblocks for example, one monoblock drives the two left while the other drivers the two right. This way you'll only need four total conductors up the tower versus eight. BTW, we actually shot a video of this set-up yesterday. It was clear as a bell at over 400 feet.

Please contact me via email or PM for pricing info. I really enjoy the tech talk and answering application questions, but I've got to keep the peace.


Lifetime,

Are you sure they weren't laughing at the fact that your trailer is permanently afixed to your boat?

David
Earmark Marine

Phil,

I appreciate the engine analogy and agree with everything you stated concerning amplifiers in a general sense. And no one knows your amplifiers and your speakers as well as you do. But there's often a big difference between good theory and the actual applied science with all its circumstantial and conditional variations.

For example, some four-channel amplifiers have a common and strictly regulated power supply that adjusts the voltage based on the lowest load so its imperative that the front and rear channels have a balanced impedance load. Some four-channel amplifiers have a similar approach with twin supplies so an asymmetrical load is permissable. Some amplifiers have an unregulated power supply and the extra headroom is greatly diminished when the boat's voltage is less than maximum. Some amplifiers run diagnostics during the initial seconds and optimize the power supply so that the headroom, efficiency and thermal capacity remain consistent over a wide range of loads. Some amplifiers are specifically biased to run at a two-ohm stereo load, or four-ohm bridged mode, and their design encompasses a variety of speakers. With storage space being at a premium and with budgetary limitations its not always realistic to have eleven independent channels for eleven speakers. And, that is just the very tip of the applicational iceberg.

For a good system design you must know all your products with all their differences and all the applicational conditions. You have to weigh and balance the benefits and contradictions. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. The best design is often like choosing the leper with the most fingers.

Certainly, there is one statement that all of us old-school technophiles agree upon which is that many consumers have misinterpreted ohm's law or have been led to believe that halving your impedance or bridging an amplifier is a magic pill that delivers more power without consequences.

David
Earmark Marine

Yeah those KS's are sick little amps, they're essentially the same/very similar as Tims SYN line.

Nu, where did you get your HD that cheap Sonic? Also do you remember what the birth sheet was on it?

David, I'm interested in seeing that video will you let us know when its up on youtube? So those monoblocks must have a high pass on them, right?

Hate I got it from somewhere local when they first came out. JL's don't come with birth sheets like other amps do but you can believe they give you every watt and then some.

David what do you think these JL HD amps put out power wise?

Good points David!

As with most things, there are always exceptions. You bring up some good ones, and you are totally correct!
As a representative of one brand here, I am best served to speak in generalities to not unduly paint any product in a negative light, compare any in an unfair comparison, or somehow give a biased impression. It is because of this that I usually am generalizing things with some basic solid system design recommendations. In a general sense, I am going to always recommend a prudent system design approach that will hopefully deliver the most reliable and robust performance.

While some folks could run the 4-cylinder analogy and do so reliably, others might find that they had nothing but problems, and there could be any number of reasons they had problems. In contrast, we two can both agree that in general, the "V8 approach" will be less prone to problems with all of the other assumptions placed upon the example above and assuming similar performance requirements. Hate asked why I recommended the way I do, so I felt I probably should elaborate.

I love your comment about choosing the leper with the most fingers, you are so right!!!! I cannot begin to do customer-specific system design at the application level you do, and at times it makes me jealous... I need to come down there and hang out with ya some day!

I also agree there is no magic pill for more power or better sound. That magic pill often ends up being a magic trick, with a puff of smoke to go with it...

Sorry guys for what probably should be considered a hijack, but thanks for letting us dive into the questions above!

Phil
Kicker


(Message edited by philwsailz on September 29, 2009)

Hate,

Yes, the G1300s are fullrange AB with both high and low-pass. They're geared specifically for two-ohms so a set is perfect for two-pair of HollowPoint 770s.

We removed a B.A. GT-28 and installed dual JL G1300s yesterday and you really couldn't tell a difference...
And you know how loud that is!
We did shoot the video. Hope to get it up soon.


nubu,

I can't say for sure but I know they're a beast. Even though its a highly efficient Class D, I heard someone drove it into hard clipping so hard (they were definitely abusing it) that they shut down a 100 amp power supply. I'm guessing that would equate to well over 800 watts. Most people don't know that the HD 600/4 has dual power supplies and a fullrange level control port. With this you can control the tower speakers at your fingertips without running to and from RCAs.

David
Earmark Marine

David I use that JL remote for controlling the volume of the tower speakers independently, it works great.

Bullets HLCD's rock, I upgraded my JL cans from Mastercraft with them. Night and Day!!! and half the cost of wetties...

Looks like Earmark Marine has a new video on Youtube with the Bullet Hollow Point 770's. Very impressive and powered with very reasonably priced amplifiers...sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/user/EarmarkMarine#play/all/uploads-all/0/OWv-39ftIZo

Murphy,

The reason I have 2 amps running the 4 speakers is I only started with 2 tower speakers so the 1 Pdx 4.100 was plenty, then I decided to add the second set mostly because it looked better to me and I wanted to keep all the amps the same.

WOW thats a great video as is nu bu's and comparing it against some of the other ones on youtube I feel they display the best sound. Obviously its difficult to get a great interpretation from a video but its not terrible either.

ChrisM,

We've done alot of quad HLCDs off one PDX4.150 plus dual HLCDs off a bridged PDX4.100. Very impressive and possibly at the highest efficiency available. Two of them still have a very small footprint.

Hate,

That video was shot on a mini Sony snap camera and received zero equalization. I've watched or heard videos that were recorded simultaneously with a laptop and a high quality mic and/or were engineered with equalization. At least this video and nubu's, for better or for worse, are completely authentic.

David
Earmark Marine

In the video were only the tower speakers running? I know Nubu said he had the tower and the sub on. They have a full range sound if thats the case. Sound great!

Rich,

I don't know because I wasn't there. So I'll assume that the factory 10-inch Polk sub was on, just to be safe.

But since bass is omnidirectional and therefore quickly dissipates and because the boat is elevated on the trailer (versus sitting down in water) I doubt we're getting sub contribution at 444 feet.

However, there are a couple of tuning techniques that make a considerable difference in midbass production and also benefit power handling and projection. I'll walk you through these.

David
Earmark Marine

Anyone know how long the deal on the bullets is going to last?

Todd,

Oct. 31st.

David
Earmark Marine