Competition divisions and Fin Placement

Just want to stir up a conversation on Fin Placement and the different divisions of competition. There has been some murmors about the placement of some fins not fitting into either surf or skim.

I for one think skill is skill, and if there is a better placement, the sport will progress toward that board and people should learn the tricks, but what does everone think?

are you saying that you think wakesurfing will eventually move more towards either skim or surf style? Surf and Skim style wakesurfing are two totally different sports in my opinion. Just like how Vert skating and street skating are completely different. They are both skateboarding, but they have their own set off athletes and dont compete against eachother. Thats why i think the overall world championship is really weird and doesnt make sense.

Both are separate in my book, and should be properly referred to as skim or surf.

I am more refferring to whether a twinzer fin, which has the capability to perform both skim and surf tricks, should be in the surf division. The fins are much farther forward it seems in this style.

I realize the difference between surf and skim is there, but what happens to that middle ground.

I agree surf and skim are two total opposites just like wakeboarding and wakeskating. I think the middle ground should be the riders style like what tricks they are doing and they should be able to fit into a category of surf or skim

I don't see how a twinzer could even remotely be considered "skim". Most setups I've seen have 3 inch fins plus the smaller ones. Twinzers come from the traditional surf world and are applied to boards with a traditional surf shape. I can't see how the Twinzer would be considered middle ground. It's kinda like saying a quad fin surf board can generate more air (because the fins provide more drive) than a twin fin board so it should be in its own division. Thoughts?

crazyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

I had a fish with twinzer like fins growing up surfing, I think that all points here are valid. Is there a point where some surface tricks should be thought of as skim tricks, therefore not giving you a higher score in surf style? Should the basis of the contest be trick related, or an overall impressions style, similar to Pro Tour?

We can take this conversation in many directions and I think they are all good for the sport. Especially with the large cash prizes we will be seeing this summer.

I dont know how twinzer would be close to skim. Are twins skim too? Surf style equals 3+ fins?
James being able to do 720s on his board does not make it like a skimboard. There is so much fin in the water. And the shape is a a surf shape. It doesnt ride at all like a skim besides that it floats and you can surf behind a boat with it.

Casey could you please clarify what you mean when you say twinzer fin. Are you talking about Hybrid boards like the old Walzer and Walker comp X that only had two fins and they were small 2 3/8".

Just so everyone knows, I have clarified with Jeff and this is not a witch hunt on James. I simply want to make sure that everyone is on the same page when it comes to competition divisions. I will have a very large cash prize pool at our competition and want everyone to be on the same page.

Jeff hopefully can feel secure after dealing with me that I have no skin in the game either way. I do not compete and could care less where division lines are set.

It is just a discussion that needs to be had based on as I said "murmurs" about divisions.

Well, let's just say that James hasn't booked his flight to MN and I am sure as this thread develops it will be clear who the "murmurers" are and how the organizers react. We'll take a wait and see posture.

this will be a very interesting thread to follow ........ what is by definition surf vs skim ....... length of fins or style or performance or board?

the powers that be need to define this for everyone ........ who gets to define this? is there a group of people that determines this and therefore sets the rules for the sport?

im very new to this sport but ive read and heard lots about different judging criteria and how everyone wishes the events would be judged the same

so it seems that there needs to be a process to get everybody on the same page everywhere regarding all aspects of the sport and its sounding like this is the time to get "everybody" together and have "everybody" agree to set up an official stance as to what is surf or skim and how each is judged and why

SIMPLE!!!

Simple indeed. There is a simple way IMO to divide the type of board. If the board can be ridden revert for 5 seconds then it is a skim board plain and simple.
Getting "everyone" to agree on anything is neither simple or possible.

Anyone that rides a Walker Project Signature model or a Flyboy will definitely agree that they ride nothing like a skim.
Chase does shuv to revert on his quad but that doesnt mean he is riding a skim. it seems very obvious what is a skim and what is a surf style. and a skim board with multiple fins like an Inland Surfer Black Pearl yellow is still a skim board.

Jeff,
We as the organizers of this comp want to make it as rider driven as possible. That is why this discussion is important. I feel the best way to get this sport in the top of mind for all boaters (which is good for the industry), is to have the most cohesive community in watersports.

This is why we are creating an entire weekend of events at the comp to bring the community together and progress the sport. These discussions are important for the developement of any sport, business, etc.

I will be the first to admit I am coming over from a true surfing background, with the idea that my 9'0" longboard is still the most fun board to ride in the world, but we all no as the industry moves forward, innovation takes over. i.e. the banned bodysuits in olympic swimming. Everyone could where them if they wanted, but the sport was not ready. I am not saying this is the case with these boards, just a thought. ..

P.S. I love when people get passionate about their sport, makes me feel all tingley inside.

What discussion? Everyone in this thread has said WTH? Casey I'll be honest. You are keeping the identity of the "murmurers" secret, protecting them for a reason and it would appear that YOU are holding secret discussions with those folks or at least aren't making all of those details public. Certainly there is nothing in this thread to warrant what you profess to be happening. If it's a manufacturer that is behind the murmurs, as you put it, that's important for folks to know. Manufacturers that produce boards that can't compete would naturally indicate there needs to be a change. I doubt we'll ever know, because it is all very secretive to begin with. Your suggestion that anything be banned is very telling. Why would you NOT take the opposite position of - innovation within the sport is it's lifesblood? In my opinion, you are leading this "discussion" in a very biased way and it's sad to me that anyone would somehow feel they can dictate a sport.

Just let me know when you make your ban public.

I am not banning anything. I want the best of the best in the comp. I don't know how else to say it, I have no board company pushing anything, I have no pull either way, I am not a pro rider, I am a board sport enthusiast who has been surfing, wakeboarding, skiing, and taking ocean boards behind boats since I could stand. I don't even carry a wakesurf board in my shop right now do to the vast number of options. I think board choice is very personal and every board has its place.

Jeff,
Think about it, for me to ban what is arguable the best wakesurfer in world right now from my contest, would make no sense. Just think about what that would do to publicity for the event, and as we all know, pub. is the most important factor in a successful event.

I always find it funny that no discussion can be opened without somebody taking it personally or declaring a conclusion. It is a discussion, as I put in the first post, and that is it.

Sorry, Not understanding... There two different boards, Shaped different, Surfed different. If a rider is talented enough to do a trick, reward it....

IMO if you can put your fin(s) in a normal surfboard that would make it a surf style. No skimmer would put a fin more then an inch or inch 1/2 on their board, (I dont think), unless they want a challenge lol. Skimmers don't like fins, it gets in their way, right?. I asked my buddy at lunch today and he said theres no way he could wakesurf with his board, with a pair of futures, expecting to ride better while riding skim style. Just like ocean surfers dont leave to their break without their fins in the board. I think we should just use the guidelines we used at worlds, Northwest and Barrelboss. It seemed like it was fine with everyone to me. No one told me I shouldnt have been in the surf division at Nationals or Barrelboss when I placed with my twinzer set up.

Wheelhouse's Turn.

Jeff though I completely understand a father's desire to protect his son, please change your posture. No one is attacking you, your designs or James for that matter. I have read the post in its entirety and cant see any of that. You are a leader in this industry with an industry leader behind you so lead on my brother!!!!

Casey, your point is also valid. No one here is wrong or right. The wakesurfing community really appreciates you wanting to make your contest fair for all and have proper divisions setup. Remember you are throwing the contest and can make the rules as you see fit. This is the same for NWWSA, Worlds, Barrel Boss and who ever else wants to throw a contest.

What this boils down to is a lack of proper divisions in this sport. That is in part because some of the events simply dont have enough riders to have multiple classes. When this happens skim and surf classes get combined into one. A skim rider is going to rack up more points on the scorecard because the board offers the ability to do more. I dont see anyone riding a surf style board doing 1080's but see skim riders do it all the time.

I dont care what any one says here, a shuv it on a skim is much easier than a shuv it on a Hazen Elevation. I know well because I ride both and have tried it on both. My shin still hurts from the fin hit i took on my elevation.

To further complicate matters we have great designers like Jeff Walker, Jeff Paige, Nick Weirsema, Jerry Price, and Mike Walker bringing new designs and technology to the sport everyday.

What is ultimately evolving here is the idea of an in between class. I.E. Surf Style Skim Style and a class some where between surf and skim style. Or that fin placement somehow should have an effect on class. This is probably never going to happen as there simply are not enough riders that travel to the competitions to warrant a third class. However we should all work together to resolve this.

You could also get into wave shape and size. Recently Chase and I were on our boat with Dominic. Chase and I love a tall lippy super powerful wave. Why because we ride surf style boards. For Dominic we put the power wedge up and filled the front ballast to make the wave flatter. Most skimmers tend to like that style wave better which by the way is why the Enzo is so popular amongst skimmers.

Chase and I also ride faster. Sean Cummings rides slower because with faster speed it is harder for him to break the small fins on his skim board loose for spinning. Now we can add speed to the variables.

There are so many variables here. We should all remember this is about having fun anyway and no one here is going to get richer by winning all the wake surf contest.

We are all pioneering this sport together and should all work together on the necessary changes to bring more credibility to riding the endless wave in competitions.

Perhaps fin length, number of fins, smallness of fins, and fin location could be used to handicap a total surf run score. I.E. a skimmer with no fins loses 10 points on their total score versus a skimmer with fins is at Par and a skimmer with 3 fins gets gains 10 points to the total score.

Wakesurfing is all about Peace and Love and good happening stuff. Lets not loose site of this.

Wheelhouse

StanleyWheelhouse, so you think if there were enough riders that twin fin and twinzer fin boards should be in different divisions that thruster and quads?

Actually Stanley, Casey referred to a Twinzer fin pod, that is James board. TWP has a separate, but similar fin pod they refer to as a Stinger. I would have a hard time believing it isn't specifically aimed at James. Also who on a TWP is really a threat at this level? Further, as Mark referenced, quads have a hugely unfair advantage with area and drive and should be penalized for any aerial trick or any trick connected with speed. So perhaps a 20 point reduction for not requiring as much effort and every aerial is reduced by 15 because it's so much easier to generate the needed speed.

We all see what we want, and I am sure in time at the contest we'll know what the root of all this is.

If the basic intent is to create a division for over-finned boards that's fine, but making any sort of reference that is one sided or doesn't take into consideration that there are advantages to quads or thursters is biased and truly an effort to gain a competitive advantage through rule making, IMO.

If the purse is to be split evenly between surf, skim and over-finned boards we won't argue. If James board with 4.5 inch fins is deemed a skim board, you'll hear me call that a crock for YEARS.

As my Costa Rican friends say:

Pura Vida - This is the basis of the entire culture and when we surf I am sure we all feel a bit of this.

Thank you Wheelhouse for your insite. As I have said, I want to make this contest as rider driven as possible. And for this year, I don't think any divisions will change, but eventually, like all sports, their will be some changes and if we as a whole are cohesive, we can define the industry.

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Gentlemen...

Twinzer was simply a reference, I am not saying we should not discuss all fin setups, I guess my stirring up a conversation worked. Let's keep it going - maybe a little less personal though.

P.S. - I am thinking ASP World Tour style judging =

Commitment and Degree of Difficulty
Innovative and Progressive Maneuvres
Combination of Major Maneuvres
Variety of Manoeuvres
Speed, Power and Flow

Scale Utilized: [ 0.0 – 1.9: Poor ] [ 2.0 – 3.9: Fair ] [ 4.0 – 5.9: Average ] [ 6.0 – 7.9: Good ] [ 8.0 – 10.0: Excellent

Evens everything out. What do we think?

being rather an insignificant person in the sport and who's opinion is merely his own ....... i like the judging format you listed above ....... seems more then fair and if you can get enough judges to be able to score things close with guidelines in place that everyone is aware of it seems to make sense

every board is different and every rider is different ....... so to score them evenly needs to be based on as many different factors as possible ( also being able to understand why and how scores are achieved by seeing the individual breakdowns would seem to lend a better fairness ) IMO

it would be cool to know how this differs from the scoring that has been used at the different contests like the northwest, springfest, worlds, barrelboss etc

Casey, when you mentioned twinzer it made me think about how shredstixx/slayshtank has called the flyboy a skimboard in the past, even though it is very far from it.

I believe divisions should be based on style. If a rider feels they can kill the skim competition on s 10' long board let them do it. If they throw 3 shuvs and 1080s that's impressive but if they are cross stepping to the nose to hang ten, they are no longer riding skim style.

From what I've heard Chase is trying big spins on his board which is surf style. That's a hard trick on a skim, with 4+" fins its even more difficult. As a reference, Chase and I ride surf style, but we have different personal riding styles, stemming from sports backgrounds and even body type. We are still judged against each other in the surf style division.

Now if I were to go out on any board and throw shuvs, 3 shuvs, big spins, switch front bigs, spin til I couldn't walk a straight line but not once try an air or grab, there is no way I could be judged in a surf style division and I would hope the judges of any event would suggest the correct division for me and let me know my score is reflective of not riding the proper style for the division I entered in.

As for judging the asp style is tried and true. It seems to me that it works well.

Nice to hear from you James...Let's get some more opinions on the judging from the community here.

As of now, I am leaning toward to ASP style, but I am still open.

Casey, good for you for bringing this subject up. As someone who has been participating as well as involved in organizing and running these events for many years, I can tell you that so far we are still fumbling around on this one.

I do agree, however, that bringing up a specific type of fin setup does seem to single out one type of board and rider. In my opinion it might have been better to just ask how best should we divide surf and skim. That being said, I appreciate that you are looking at this holistically.

My opinion: Each type of board has its advantages and drawbacks. Each rider picks a board that meets their needs (based on a TON of different variables).

How about we make this really simple. We all basically know what a skim board looks like (generally pin tail, bi-directional, thinner with none, one or a few small fins). We also know what a surf board looks like (generally thicker, directional, bigger curved fins, etc). If your board fits the general classification, you ride in that division. If your board could go either way, pick a division. Since no one board is great at everything, the rider is going to be giving up some aspect to gain in another. A quad fin board with mongo fins can boost big air, but can be tougher to spin. A twin fin board gives up some drive but spins easier.

This concept allows for continuing innovation (critical to our sport) and doesn't punish for it. Maybe the Twinzer is the BEST EVER fin setup for a surf style board? If so, manufactures will gravitate towards it because riders demand it. Maybe quad is the best, who knows. Maybe there is no perfect setup (much more likely). But by limiting the divisions at such a granular level (fin setup and placement) you are sure to stifle innovation and not allow the market (and the riders) to experiment and ultimately push our sport forward.

I like the ASP judging format, cant really go wrong there. The contest's need to move away from the trick = points thing. It's hard to put a certain amount of points on each trick. There are to many ways to do a certain maneuver and new trick's are being thrown all the time. I feel the ASP format puts everyone on somewhat of a level playing field. It looks more at your overall performance and execution, doing every trick with the most power, style, amplitude, commitment, and control. I like this because it promotes progression, and doing each trick as "radical" as possible. yes, James and I have different styles and do different tricks. With this format whoever rides the hardest and is the most progressive is going to win no matter what trick's were doing.

we also need to find qualified judges, that actually know what their talking about. Without good judges no contest format will work. I know at this point in wakesurfing it's hard to find qualified people to judge. we have to figure something out, it would be cool to get all the top people in the sport together and make it official.

When it comes to the boards fitting into the category of surf or skim it's pretty obvious. James board is a surf style, its borderline but its still is a surfboard. James has a good point with what style your riding too. who cares if someone wants to ride a skim in the surf style, that's when good judges and common sense come into play.

put up a post the other day on wakeworld. It was about how i was stoked about the 2011 ShredStixx boards, and how i wanted to hear eveyone's thoughts about the boards (good or bad). Anyways, it got taken down for some reason??? so thought id put it back up. what do you think????

I think the most important point here is reiterating what Wheelhouse brought up. The difference is the wake or wave shape preference. Skim style wakesurfing is akin to ocean skim surfing or wake skating (equivalent tricks). They prefer and shine on a flatter, less aggressive wake. Whereas the surf style prefers a "tall, lippy, angry wake. This would make the competition divisions easier to manage. Just bring your board, and pick a wake.....Flat chested or barrel chested.

I agree that we need to discuss boards, judging criteria, wave conditions, and everything that affects this sport. This is a young and evolving sport. Just like anything that is young and evolving, it will change as it grows. To discuss those changes is healthy and will ultimately benefit the overall position of the sport and everyone associated with the sport.

Regarding the divisions – Surf and Skim, I think that everyone agrees that they are different. From my experience, the difference between Surf and Skim is a riders style and preference. I have seen many “Ocean Surfers” ride and it is very apparent that their riding style transfers from the ocean to the wave behind a boat. I have also seen many skim style riders and they too have their own unique style and preference. It is however just that, a riders preference.

Regarding the boards, I think that there are three categories of wakesurf boards today. Skim style board, Surf style board, and a hybrid board. Between Lil Chris and I we are fortunate enough to have the following boards and I will categorize them based on my opinion only:

Shred Stixx Comp1 - Surf
Shred Stixx Custom Elevation 4’8” – Surf
Shred Stixx Custom Elevation 4’6” w/twinzer fins - Surf
Shred Stixx Thresher – Surf
Shred Stixx Skim Stixx – Skim
Shred Stixx Nano - Surf
Phase 5 Drew Danielo Pro Model – Skim
Phase 5 Prop – Skim
TWP Comp 4.5 – Hybrid
TWP JWSM – Hybrid
Liquid Force Custom 4.5 – Hybrid

The hybrid boards are just that. Boards that can be ridden either as a surf style board as a skim style board. They are boards that seem to make both styles of tricks possible. Somewhat like a cross over board. I do not own a Flyboy board and can not comment on that board. I can comment on the TWP JWSM board that I own. It is, in my opinion, a hybrid wakesurf board. The design of the board enable’s the rider to perform surface spins (and other tricks which are more traditionally categorized as skim style tricks) AND aerial’s (tricks which are more traditionally categorized as surf style tricks). I don’t think that this is such a bad thing.

Regarding the Twinzer Fins, I have ridden two boards with a twinzer fin setup. The first is the JWSM and the second is a Shred Stixx Custom Elevation. I would consider my style of riding on each of these boards to be “Surf” style, however, the twinzer fins do make it easier to “break” the board loose and perform surface spins. If someone wanted to ride the elevation with the twinzer fins in a competition under the Skim division, they should be able to choose to do so. If that rider was a skim style rider, they would still be a skim style rider. If they were a surf style rider, they would still be a surf style rider. A board can not change a riders style of riding. It can, by proper design, enhance certain types of tricks and styles of riding.

Again, just to clarify, I do not believe that a wakesurf board can make a rider either a surf style rider or a skim style rider. It is more of how the rider interacts with the wave and the arsenal of tricks and how the tricks are executed that make a rider either Skim or Surf Style. I also believe that the difficulty of the trick should effect the score and the board can be a factor. For example, if two riders in the same division performed the same trick. Let’s say it was a SHUV. If one of the riders is on a traditional surf style board and the other in on a skim style board, the rider of the surf style board should score significantly higher. The level of difficulty to perform a Shuv on a surf style board is much greater that a Shuv on a Skim style board. Based on this, riders will be sure to enter the division that best fits their style. They will be rewarded with a higher score for their tricks if they are in the division that fits their style.

In my opinion, the competitions need to be split into the two distinct categories (not three). Scoring should be done based on the division the rider enters. I also like the ASP Judging format. There are a million ways to judge any sport, and it’s worth the energy to discuss all the alternatives. Ultimately, however, no matter which criteria is selected, judgments will continue to be subjective. That is why it is so important to create an atmosphere where opinions can be expressed and debated.

Originally Posted by wakemitch

StanleyWheelhouse, so you think if there were enough riders that twin fin and twinzer fin boards should be in different divisions that thruster and quads?

Not necessarily. However, there are valid points being made here by all. One cant argue with the fact that a shuv it on a surf style board like a Hazen Elevation vs a Drew Skim is much harder on that surf style quad fin board. The rider should be rewarded. Just like an air on a Hazen Elevation is much easier to do than on a Drew Skim and the rider should be rewarded for it.

The balancing of the reward should in no way prevent the progression of our sport or the design of the boards.

I ride both..............

Casey, when you mentioned twinzer it made me think about how shredstixx/slayshtank has called the flyboy a skimboard in the past, even though it is very far from it.

Hybrid - a surf style board with a lot of skim style characteristics. (Wheelhouse)

To say the Flyboy is a skim is unfair and untrue. I have ridden the board on an Enzo wave and it is not a Skim Board. it is well designed and free to move around.

If we look at the extremes being a Red Woody on one end of the spectrum and a Phase 5 Drew on the other end of the spectrum one could argue that some where in the middle lies a Tweener (somewhere in between). Therefore it is easy to understand where all of this discussion and challenge is coming from.

CK Sr. You have some excellent points.

Legendary Surfer Mark Sher You also have illustrated some excellent points.

No scoring system should prevent the progression of our sport. That would DAMN us all.

Lets keep the discussion going as I can see many of the people I get to see all over the country at wakesurf events are chiming in here.

Lets keep it professional and not make this personal. It is about progressing our sport.

Why I am thinking about it, if anyone wants to see a media packet for possible sponsorship and has not given your address to Danny, shoot me an email at casey.smith@marinemax.com with your company and address and I will get them out Monday or Tuesday. All sponsor dollars after expenses are paid will go directly back to the prize pool, so the more the merrier...I have prize pool numbers I would like to hit, but that is for me to know, and for everyone to find out. If we hit it, which is possible from what I have heard, It will be epic for the sport.

Now let's continue the conversation...

It is amazing that in this sport someone is always I mean always stirring the pot. If you are talking about a skim board shape with a twinzer on each side, dual fin skim board then they belong in the skim class. If you are talking about any type of surf style board with surf style fins and twinzers then you are just here stirring the pot. What’s next you supplying the boards that the riders ride in a contest?

idk, its pretty obvious when someone is riding surf style, or skim style.... its like your beating a dead horse here dude. Ive never had an issue trying to figure out which is which...

Originally Posted by riverrunner

It is amazing that in this sport someone is always I mean always stirring the pot. If you are talking about a skim board shape with a twinzer on each side, dual fin skim board then they belong in the skim class. If you are talking about any type of surf style board with surf style fins and twinzers then you are just here stirring the pot. What’s next you supplying the boards that the riders ride in a contest?

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a part of the contest; and no, I will not be supplying boards for the comp. Did that answer your question?

If you feel as though I should - maybe we can work on a different contest setup...kind of like ristricter plates on racecars(you see, we can all have rediculous questions and statements). If you don't want to be apart of the conversation, we will all survive. However, it will still be my pleasure to have you here for the contest.

[I]"idk, its pretty obvious when someone is riding surf style, or skim style.... its like your beating a dead horse here dude. Ive never had an issue trying to figure out which is which... "[/I]

You must just be smarter than I sir, can you send me your judging criteria for reference (casey.smith@marinemax.com) ...Thank you for helping the topic!!!

this is going in a good direction ........ its really great to hear from the competitors themselves and its refreshing how all they want is a fair and consistent judging platform ....... surfing is a free fun and personal passion and should not be subjected to scrutiny as to our individual styles and choice of boards ....... there is a common ground for all this and we should all be wise enough to be able to come together to acheive this ...... being on the west coast it would be great to hear from surfdad and dennis and robert about their ideas of how surf contests can be judged

wouldnt it be great to have some sort of agreement to the future rules and regulations regarding the wake surfing competetions everywhere ...... seems like all the other sports can do this

Frank I believe this thread is allowing this to happen. The last thing we need is inconsistency as it will only devalue our sport. There needs to be a set of rules and judging criteria that all contest are run by. Every one who posted here on this thread has the pull and brains to make this happen. It will be a pleasure to watch it unfold.

It is also nice to see everyone here saying what is on their mind. I hear it from all directions when at the contest and have even said a few things myself. It is nice to see everyone voicing their opinion here and not being judged by what they say.

last time i checked we live in a country that allows freedom of speech.

im very sorry that i left out jeff from inland surfer as to hearing his views also ......... ( damn )

If you leave out the personal agendas/slams, this is a good and pertinent discussion and it is good for our sport.

We need a unified set of rules and guidelines for competition that we can all adhere to, regardless of geographic location. For the most part, the more established sports do not have competitive criteria that depends on who is riding and where they are doing so.

If you look at the AWSA rules, guidelines and judging criteria that Jeff Walker, Dennis and others have developed, you see there is already a strong foundation in place to build upon. The verbiage regarding a skim vs surf board is relatively broad in its descriptions of each. This broad description is the key to allowing designers to grow the sport through design innovation that ultimately benefits the riders with better product to ride.

These rules and guidelines should be governed and evolved by the leaders in the sport. It would be ideal if our most prominent and talented riders could continue to evolve the outline of what the Surf vs. Skim criteria would be and get these differences down on paper. The AWSA rules would be the the governing, and living document of competitive wakesurfing.

We need to make a collaborative effort to develop the AWSA rules, and then encourage each "tribe" to adhere to them at all of the different events. Ultimately, as competitors, whether we win or lose a contest, we want to come away feeling we were judged fairly. Whether you are a pro competing at World's or a grom at your first contest, it is the expectation that the event holders are responsible organizers and taking the steps to create a fair event in exchange for your $50 entry fee.

We have developed the Midwest Wakesurfing Association locally, and it is our goal to work with the other factions/associations across the country to follow one, uniform contest division/judging formats. The website, www.midwestwakesurfing.com, will be live shortly and will include a link directly to the PDF copy of the AWSA rules and regulations.

Here's to good, positive discussion and progress!!
Stacia and Chris Bank

I hear many names and acronyms thrown out in the wakesurfing community and I am not really sure what they all do. I have heard of the AWSA(American Wakesurfing Association), NWWSA(Northwest Wakesurf Association), WWSA (World Wakesurf Association), and now the MWWSA. Are these organizations independent of each other? Can someone tell me the function of each organization and how they interact?

I wrote the original rules for the AWSA 4 or 5 years ago. They were based then as now on the criteria put forth by the ASP. Every contest that I was involved with has used the basic criteria of the ASP. There have been some contests that I was not a part of that used some of the rules from ASWA but not the judging criteria. Last years World's is an example. They used a point system that IMO stifles innovation and variety in how competitors do their runs. I have never been in favor of a point per trick in Open Classes. Again I say that if a board can be ridden revert for 8 secs then it is by design a skim style board. Boards with 4 1/2 inch fins do not allow for a rider to pump and carve with the fins forward. The whole discussion about what is or is not a surf or skim board is as simple as that. I could go on but think it best to stop here.

Without endorsing any part of whatever is going on in this thread I can give you some background on the organizations listed above. Chronologically, the WWSA was the first organization created and it consisted, at the time of members from Cenurion Boats, Level X magazine, Calibrated Wakesurfing, Trick Boardz and Fresh Air Exhaust amongst others. The sought to organize the sport and provide a framework for furtherance of sport in contests, prevention of legislation against the sport and in general nuture it's existence. It self destructed in what one member told me was: the weight of it's own egos. There was never a formal non-profit entity registered in California and it doesn't exist in it's original organization. Someone has created a Facebook page, but I don't believe that it is associated with this original organization.

The AWSA is now basically in legacy status, pending approval from the Secretary of State it will be dissolved and no longer exist. It created, borrowing heavily from documents created by the WWSA, a general rule set and judging document. That rule set and the judging document were released into the public domain, originally, I believe in 2005, with revsions up through a few years ago. The judging system does not include any reference to a points based system craeted and adopted by the World Wake Surf Championships and the NWWSA. The AWSA also staged several small local contests and helped the local INT League stage several wakesurf components within their events. The AWSA hasn't been active in the better part of two years. The AWSA was formed as a non-profit public benefit corporation.

The NWWSA under the guidance of Grace Stanton has staged two North West Wakesurfing events. They have a huge following with upwards of 50 volunteers at each and every meeting. Principally they have been organized to help stage a contest, the last two years on Lake Samammish and it's my understanding they have been invited to create a rule set and judging document for the INT League. The NWWSA used bits and pieces of the public domain document created by the AWSA, but as with most organizations felt the need to put their own brand of ownership on it.

The MWWSA is the newest of the organizations and I provided copies of the public domain documents to Chris Banks and Danny Lemke (spelling?!) and had no idea Casey was involved. I suggested to both of the individuals above that they collaborate and that the original AWSA documents were written to be permissive and allow local organizers to hold a contest as they saw fit. I don't know the type of entity of the last two organizations.

From what I have seen and personally experienced, there is little interaction between any of the organzations, realizing that for last year only one of the 4 was active, so there wouldn't be much interaction. Gong forward there will be The NWWSA, the MWWSA, a new organiztion is possibly in the works in Northern California, or at least the folks at Wake9 will be organizing and then possibly organizers for the WWSC and Towanza's events. Lastly, the USA WB (USA Wakeboard) also hosts a wakesurfing event in conjunction with their Nationals contest and they use a modified version of the AWSA rule set and judging document. There is no formal wakesurfing component and so after that one contest, there is almost no activity within USA WB with regards to wakesurfing.

That's my 2 cents on all of the organizations involved.

No Dennis, you were one of SEVERAL that wrote the rules within the AWSA.

I am not a founder of the MWWSA, I am only involving Chris because I like the way he carries himself and his desire to make the sport the best it could possibly be. If offered, I would love to be a member of the MWWSA, but that is for a different conversation.

Sounds like we need a cohesive entity...I feel like we are getting at something.

I need to correct one thing, Danny Lemke pointed out that I was wrong about his association with the MWWSA. My apologies Danny!

We have all said our peace.


how about some resolution?

We will be using the ASP format with tweaks. I would like to enlist the help of those who have spoken with Danny and want to be a part of it to make these tweaks to better fit the wake aspect of the judging.

Please contact me via email if you would like to be a part of the conversation. Thanks to all for the insights and I hope we can create a system that benefits everybody and helps the sport as a whole.

so thats it? party over?

its very obvious that i knew nothing of the rules and organizations involved in wakesurfing ....... sounds like some others who have been involved alot longer then me didnt know either ....... i only know what i know and there is really no way to know more unless i ask

great history lesson from surfdad and dennis

after reading all this it seems like we all agree to disagree ....... seems like a shame ........ every organization is going to do things in its own fashion towards its own agenda ...... there is nothing wrong with that and for all the work and effort that they put out they deserve to run things like they want to and bless them all for having events we all get to participate in!!

it would be nice IMO to see this all headed towards the common good for the sport ...... whatever the rules and regulations and scoring is ...... strength is always in unity it seems ........ and if we cant stand as one we leave ourselves at risk of some larger entity with an agenda of its own taking control for the better or worse ....... ( its a little to dramatic but i hope you understand my point of view )

There should be a scoring organization that is led by someone who is not affiliated in any way with a board company. As one could argue the scoring system could be in favor of skim or surf or even hybrid as the thread has pointed too. Having 19 wakesurf organizations around the country is great. I love the organization. However, only chaos will exist if each tribe has its own scoring system.

Casey would you please share the scoring criteria with us here on the post. I really hope you are not discouraged in any way from throwing what promises to be an awesome event from traffic on this post. I am really glad you opened up this can of worms as it does need to be opened, discussed, and resolved.

Come on guys and gals....

Can someone post the criteria / point / trick list that was used at Wolrds and NWWSA. This would help further our discussion.

As i like many here are not ocean surfers (please forgive us mother ocean) we may not understand ASP scoring. Could someone elaborate on this?

Frank,
I feel strongly that we need a unified system, it takes time and hopefully enough cooperation is achieved that we can have a result. As I have said, I would like to bring people together to make the contest here in Minnesota fit the ideal scoring platform. The more input the better. I know Chris Bank, Dennis, Mike Walker, etc. are willing to work at this and based on the desire I have seen from Chris, we can achieve the ultimate goal of a unified industry.

Please, anyone who wants to participate keep the conversation going and lend your ideas. Maybe after the summer of contests, if there are different formats of scoring, we can start to determine the best way to lean our efforts.

Commitment and Degree of Difficulty
Innovative and Progressive Maneuvers
Combination of Major Maneuvers
Variety of Maneuvers
Speed, Power and Flow
That is the total of the ASP judging criteria. If that is good enough for contests with million dollar prize funds I think it should work for us.

Stanley,
Mother Ocean forgives you...

Format is based on the Following Scale:

Article 143: Wave-Scoring Scale
The wave scoring will be done from 0.1 to 10.0 (ten), broken into onetenth
increments (e.g 7.3).
Article 144: Judging Criteria
Surfers must perform to the ASP judging key elements to maximize their
scoring potential. Judges analyze the following major elements when scoring
waves.
- Commitment and degree of difficulty
- Innovative and progressive manoeuvres
- Combination of major manoeuvres
- Variety of manoeuvres
- Speed, power and flow

NOTE: The following scale may be used to describe a Ride that is scored:
0–1.9 = Poor; 2.0–3.9 = Fair; 4.0–5.9 = Average;
6.0–7.9 = Good; 8.0–10.0 = Excellent

This allows for riders to not only become robots in competition, but push the envelope of the sport and allow for progression. The first rider of the day will be scored with the ability for other riders to be higher and lower. From there, all runs are based on this standard.
What we will have to define is a progressive manoeuvre vs. major manoeuvres (and these will change from year to year as the sport progresses). A minimum of 4 judges should be required with a head judge in the boat to monitor that there is no conversation between judges about scoring. Once a score is written, it can not be changed, this forces the comparision to be the basis rather than individual tricks.
For skim - instead of speed,power and flow - we might use speed,style and flow... but these are the things we must discuss. It will take time to make it perfect as in the Ocean, condition are a large part of judging and some categories are not judged as hard. When riding pipeline - committment and difficulty are the most important.

This is a rough breakdown, but it is a great base in my mind.

@stanley We are a small group and finding anyone with expertise in the sport of wakesurfing that has no ties to the industry is impossible. That being said there are experts in judging that even with industry affiliation want to do the best for the sport without bias. I have judged for years with judges that own board companies and have not had any instance where the best rider in a class was not picked by all three of us regardless of what they were riding. Just because a person is in the industry doesn't make them biased.

Casey and Dennis thanks for the info on ASP. That scoring system sounds like it will push the rider to not ride like a robot. Agreed on the fact that this system is used to judge million dollar prize contest and therefore should be adequate for wake surfing. I ride in competitions and always feel like i am riding like a robot because i am being judged on the tricks that I do and feel little else matters.

What would we considered to be major maneuvers?


@Dennis - I was not intending to question the integrity of the board makers ability to judge contest with bias. I could see how one might argue that the skim board is more for scoring points than style and aggression and Bob Dillon makes skim boards so his judging system favors skim boards....

IMO the point system used at the World's and others is exactly that a contrived attempt to score as many points is a short period of time. Tricks with major degree of difficulty are not attempted because their point value isn't worth the risk. A point system in amateur classes is however a viable option as it gives riders a framework to learn and progress. Point systems in Open competition runs the risk of stifling innovation and progression.

Major maneuvers is associated only with combinations of tricks. Doing for example a fire hydrant ( I don't consider this an Open Trick) with a 360 would not be a combination of major maneuvers. Doing an Ollie 180 followed by a 540 would be a combination that would be considered for example. Chase does a 180 shuv that has to become a combination trick because it is not possible to ride revert so he adds to 180 to backside switch or adds a body varial to get back to riding the board forward and not switch. Hope this helps everyones understanding of the criteria.

@Stanley Many have questioned wether Board Makers can create judging rules without bias. I would say that we can.

Wow, I have been really busy with work, and buried in the snow right now, but what a thread. Lots of good points, and this is something that has been discussed a lot in the last year. I probably lean more towards ASP type judging myself. In the end, I think there has to be some type of consensus that can be a foundation moving forward, and that can evolve. That consensus will be tough, but everyone would have to come to the table willing to compromise to some degree.

Fortunately, as long as goofy and regular riders get equal opportunity, I personally am not stuck in any one direction. ;-)

We are hopefully finishing up plans for the may event, and I would love it if we were using the same system that would then be used across the country. And I know that I don't have a desire to designate what that is, and would be willing to adhere to a consensus. Hope that makes sense.

Also, Amy and I have talked about helping to host registration at wake9 if possible, for free, so that contest can share benefit of insurance. Insurance is SUCH a pain. But how cool if a rider can sign up for his $35 member fee for WWA, and then all contests after that are cheaper, because he doesn't have to add that into the mix? We just need to do a bit of coordination to make that work.

If any of you holding contests want to work together on that, please feel free to contact me, would be great for the riders.

Sounds like there could be a single, national (world wide), unified organization formed which could be based on a membership type of system. The main group could publish rules and guidelines just like was done with the AWSA. In fact it seems that the AWSA has already done much of this. It just seems that the regional or local groups should be a part of the main organization, like chapters. They could have their own autonomy and be somewhat independent but abide by the guidelines of the overall organization. The main organization could be formed from an elected group of directors. That way everyone is represented fairly.

If done correctly competitions could be sanctioned. It could even get to the level of a point system, so that at the end of each season, the overall point leader is the world champion. Not just the winner of one event. Isn't that the way it is done in ocean surfing?

Exactly, and I know that wake9, and anything we would do would submit/adhere to that organization/body/whatever, as long as it is a good concensus, and good for the sport. Otherwise, we splinter, and that can't be good. I will do what I can to help.

great progressive thinking here!!!!

AWSA is the Lead Organization ...... its leaders would be from all the regional groups ....... then some type of charter written with guidelines Addressing the Sport as a whole ....... the charter ( if im using the right word here ) would be a finalized version of everyones input and would be considered the governing body of the AWSA ....... hopefully then the regional groups ( who all had a say in the regs ) would endorse this charter and there would be guidelines set in stone

then this sport can take off and who really knows how far it could go in the mainstream of sports

Originally Posted by wofrankwo

great progressive thinking here!!!!

AWSA is the Lead Organization ...... its leaders would be from all the regional groups ....... then some type of charter written with guidelines Addressing the Sport as a whole ....... the charter ( if im using the right word here ) would be a finalized version of everyones input and would be considered the governing body of the AWSA ....... hopefully then the regional groups ( who all had a say in the regs ) would endorse this charter and there would be guidelines set in stone

then this sport can take off and who really knows how far it could go in the mainstream of sports

Interesting thread. Shows that the sport is evolving and the judging criteria will need to evolve with it.
I'm an "old guy" that wakesurfs weekly and has about 15 different wakesurf boards. I currently ride a custom Roush and prefer the skim style boards.
As a regular judge at many of the competitions, I don't think it's that difficult to distiguish between surf and skim style riders. Although I would agree that Keenan and James both push the envelope on what is traditionally accepted as a skim or surf style trick, and there are hybrid boards pushing the envelope on what is a surf or skim style board.
Although my opinion doesn't really matter, I don't think surf style and skim style can ever be judged fairly in the same class.
The judges were just lucky at World's that Keenan threw down such an amazing run that we did not have much difficulty determing the overall winner.
I personally don't think they should ever be combined again. If a surf style and a skim style rider each had truly amazing runs, it would be impossible to say which one is better.
I've ridden outside of competitions with Sean, Keenan, Dominique, Chase, Jaqueline and Bri. My apologies to others I rode with outside of competition and did not list.
From a judges perspective, with a limited subjective judging criteria as described earlier in the thread;

Commitment and Degree of Difficulty
Innovative and Progressive Maneuvers
Combination of Major Maneuvers
Variety of Maneuvers
Speed, Power and Flow

it is extremely difficult to differentiate between the best riders.
In my opinion, which has no authority, no boat manufacturer influence, and no board manufacturer influence, a combination of the trick points and the subjective judging criteria produces the most accurate result.
Attached (hopefully) is a modified version of the trick list and point scoring criteria used at World's, NWWSA, and Florida "Nationals".
I'm not the author, just a wakesurfer who has judged many competitions and has tried to modify the trick list and scoring criteria to provide the most accurate result.
The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the sport continues to evolve and the judging criteria needs to evolve with it. Continued input from the best riders is more important than opinions from "old guys" like me.
I will weight heavily any comments from Drew, Keenan, Dominique, James and Chase

once again im nobody ........ i have a 15 yr old son that competes in the surf style ........ i get the feeling that nobody really feels like the skim and surf should ever be in the same class

it also seems to me that the point style system seems to work great for the skim style riders who throw down a gauntlet of tricks

it seems to me that the surf style riders do not like the point system format ........ i believe that james and chase have both offered input to their preferred choice of scoring earlier in this thread

i have no experience with skim riders for the most part and am really in the dark as to their feelings ( seems like the majority posting on this thread are surf style riders i believe )

would be great to hear what each individual would like to see evolve and why

my opinion and my sons is that the surf style rider should be judged on the ASP scoring format ....... we dont feel that a set of required manuvers should be judged ahead of an agressive stlye that is more truer to a surfers ability ...... rewards for tricks are in the ASP format but style drive and agression should be factored in also

lets hear what people would like to see happen and why?

Ok well I’m a nobody too but this DOES need to happen!

First I agree with Dennis, amateurs should be on the point system. That way it will be simple, easier to judge, easier to know where they are going to get points. Amateurs are not showing great “degrees of difficulty”, not “combining major maneuvers” or showing “speed, power and flow”.
Pros ARE. Surfing is not a race so it has to be judged on most skilled. The Olympic have been using the 0 to 10 rating system for I don’t know how long and defiantly is what should be used on pros! Just like ASP World Tour too! Duh! Like Casey said. For skim and surf.

OK with that said, oh wait and Surf and Skim should always be judged separately.
And a skim is a skim everything else is NOT a skim. You have to keep it to 2 classes so you have A)Skim and B)Everything else, that simple. A glass of water is a glass of water because of what it does NOT have, lemon, tea, whatever. A skim is a skim for what it does not have, long fins.

OK, I sure hope this idea of making ONE organization with Chapters or whatever does NOT die! That is my big thing I hope we can get out of this thread! Reading this got me so stoked that something like this could happen. To where anyone could fairly easily set up a Chapter and host a sanctioned event and pros would want to come to get more points to become world champ. THAT is when this will take off! Right???

Where do we go from here?

Hope all of these ideas come together and start molding our sport! It would be sick to do the points system throughout the season just like the ASP world Tour and maybe have a place online where you can peep in and look at the standings? Have our own type of wake awards at worlds, Best trick,video, up incoming rider, contest run, contest..etc. This is really pumping me up for this season to get here!

OK, so I finally took the time to read every post on this thread for my own edification. Whew!

This has been on my mind a lot this winter, and I am glad this is bought up again. There was a conversation started regarding this just before the holidays, and we discussed several of these topics. This thread is great, because it makes it clear what the issues are. I have invited a group that I think represents just about everyone to see if a consensus can be built. And from there, maybe the beginnings of a governing body. Something that would be best for the sport, and something that can evolve with it. Wouldn't that be great?

The important thing, is everyone is going to have to be willing to compromise and work together. I really don't know where this is going to go, but I can say that if a consensus can be reached, wake9 will pledge to adopt and promote it to the community.

Here are the people that I have invited, so chime in with them if you need to.

Grace Stanton - NWWSA
Todd Gaughan - Towanza/Worlds
Scott Culp - Wake Surfer, former AWSA
Dennis Horton - Wake Surfer, Coach, former AWSA
John (Chris) Kinsey - Wake Surfer, Dad, Sponsored by ShredStix and tied into the Texas scene.
Me, Dad, and wake9 guy, Organizer of Spring West Coast contest

I have also sent a note to Danny Lemke from the MWWSA, but haven't heard back. Everyone else above has agreed to sit and chat. Lets see what can happen. When there is something to report, I am sure one of us will.

I am sure there could be more folks in the discussion, but too many would get unruly. This is just the beginning, keep your fingers crossed. I am excited for the future of wakesurfing, hopefully you are too.

Correction, danny is a part of the minnesota contest, not the MWWSA. I sometimes have trouble keeping it all straight. ;-)

Yea Team WakeSurf!!

Wow! Cool, looks like a great start Ragboy! Good group, Good luck guys!

I want to be careful not to derail a process due to posting online...

That said, today was a VERY encouraging day. We have started putting a framework together, there is a great deal of cooperation and likemindedness, and the riders are going to be engaged thoroughly in this process.

I really felt like everyone involved wanted to put the sport and the riders first, and their own interests second.

If you can please keep me posted at bbaker2012@gmail.com!

Awesome - let's keep things rolling!

I think we should put all of our fins on the top of our boards, ride them upside down and on the wrong side of the wake. Mayeb even behind a jet powered Canoe wake!!!! That would be a good event.

lmaorotf!