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Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-23-2009, 10:37 AM Reply   
One month ago I purchased a new boat. I looked at Mastercraft, Correct Craft, Malibu, Supra, and Moomba. I researched for months. I heard the same story at all the dealers. They all said production is going to be cut by about 65% (or so depending on manufacturer) and the prices are going up by 7% - 12%. I got an unheard of deal on my new loaded 2009 24ssv gravity games because nobody is purchasing new boats (used market seems to be good though). All the dealers were giving away boats. The deals were amazing. I had 4 different competing offers going with some less then dealer cost. The laws of supply and demand do not support a price increase. I guess they figure if supply is limited enough then prices can be raised. In my eyes this seems to leave the market wide open for a Sanger, Centurion, Epic or one of the other smaller manufacturers to gain huge market share at the expense of the "big boys". The market is not going to support these prices. A "common" person can't buy a 70k+ boat and they can no longer use their home equity to pay for it. just my 2 cents. I think the manufacturers have lost their minds if they think this is going to work. If it does work, good for us who already have boats since ours will be worth more.
Old     (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-23-2009, 10:59 AM Reply   
They quit caring about the common person in 1999
Old     (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       10-23-2009, 11:03 AM Reply   
Sales pitch...boat prices going for 2010 models makes the 2009 price look better.
Old     (cavlxenvy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-23-2009, 11:03 AM Reply   
There are many reasons why that is going on. For one, manufacturers cannot lower the prices on their boats when the cost of production goods continue to increase. That is a trend that has been going on for years and will not stop.

The great deals on 08, 09 boats have been largely the result of dealerships going under. Banks have been selling the boats from those dealerships to other dealerships at ridiculously low prices. That is why there have been great deals out there on those boats.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-23-2009, 11:16 AM Reply   
As a person looking to sell a late model used boat, I hope used prices go back up. Can't wait for the boat show...new v-drive ski boat sticker shock drives people to easily pay 50k+ for a used boat.

This is probably the worst place ( right now) IMO to sell a used boat. Buyers on this site are looking for the "deal of the century".
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-23-2009, 11:29 AM Reply   
They keep adding all this bling and unnecessary crap to the boats increasing their cost to build these boats so they have to charge more. It just isn't a good time to be increasing the price of boats no matter why it is increasing.
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-23-2009, 12:18 PM Reply   
Also, there are those who bought their boats 2-3 years ago at or near asking price when the economy was "good". Unfortunately due layoffs, loss of business, or other financial issues they are stuck with a boat oweing more than it's worth and can't sell the boat due to new 08/09 prices being down.
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-23-2009, 12:20 PM Reply   
The commodity market in general is way down over the last year or so (but up since march) so higher input costs are not the reason for a price increase. It really sounds like the manufacturers think they are going to make the same gross yearly profit on less overall yearly revenues (less boats sold at higher prices). Their input costs have to be less then they were a year or two ago so I can't buy the "our costs are going up" arguement.
Old    murrayair            10-23-2009, 12:25 PM Reply   

quote:

They all said production is going to be cut by about 65% (or so depending on manufacturer)...




Wow, that's incredible. And it's only going to get worse with increasing boat prices in this economy. I'm not terribly worried, though. The process of capitalism will weed out the weak/stupid companies and we'll all be better off when it's done.

I really don't feel sorry for companies who aren't smart enough to adapt to a changing market.

(Message edited by murrayair on October 23, 2009)
Old     (johnny_jr)      Join Date: Mar 2006       10-23-2009, 12:34 PM Reply   
Law of S&D does not account for cost of materials to produce. although S&D holds true most of the time, it is not the case in this industry as well as high end "Enterprise" electronics (like servers storage etc.)

When demand drops to a point that reduces the production output of any MFG by 60%+ you will see an increase in cost of goods sold.

With a decrease in production of 60% MFGs will buy 60% less of all parts and material used to build boats, that will equate to an increase in material/part cost due to lower volumes.

Example: If you buy a gallon of fiberglass resin it will run $45 a gallon, if you buy a 55 gallon drum you will most likely reduce you cost of resin by 15 to 25%.

Example: If it costs you 100K a year to keep a production facility open for a year and you sell 1K boats a year it costs $100/boat to keep the doors open. If you cut production by 60% then it now costs you $250 or 2.5 times as much.

Compound the 2 examples and you can easily see why the cost of boats will go up 7 to 12% next model year.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Costs used above are not actual, but are a good representation of the truth of the matter.
Old     (kraig)      Join Date: Dec 2002       10-23-2009, 12:54 PM Reply   
Quote: "In my eyes this seems to leave the market wide open for a Sanger, Centurion, Epic or one of the other smaller manufacturers to gain huge market share at the expense of the "big boys"."

I don't see anyone gaining a 'huge' market share right now. If the market allowed for someone to gain a huge share of it then the market would be doing better and hence the big boys would be doing better.

And as stated earlier, "the law of S&D does not account for cost of materials." First of all, I don't think the cost of the materials is the major problem for alot of these manufacturers. The cost of wakeboats skyrocketed upward in the last 5-6 years. Mainly due to a specialized boat that few build, not because the cost of materials went up. Not saying that materials haven't increased in price, I just don't believe it was the cost of the materials that caused the huge jump in wakeboat prices. Given the example of the cost of fiberglass and resin, then ALL types of boats would have shot up in price. And to expand on that example, a Moomba uses the same fiberglass as a boat almost twice the price. I understand that there are other factors that affect that price, I just don't believe it's the cost of the materials that caused the prices to increase the amount that they did.

WE are the reasons why the prices went up so much.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-23-2009, 1:05 PM Reply   
I'm really glad to see that they are cutting production. It's going to increase the value of our used boats quite a bit, which we need as so many of us have taken a big hit in the last year. I've seen it in the auto industry where used car values have sky rocketed (which never happens) as the new vehicle production has been cut.
Old     (brock_sampson)      Join Date: Oct 2009       10-24-2009, 6:10 AM Reply   
The wake boat industry is in for a HUGE shock if they don't start figuring out a way to drop prices in a big way.

When I bought my first wake boat, I looked everywhere for a used one. I wound up driving from illinois to atlanta to buy one. The used wake boat market did not exist.
A couple of years later when I knew exactly what I wanted to trade up to, I was able to find several options locally, and was forced to compare them all.

fast forward several years, and I am tripping over used wake boats wherever I go. V-drives with perfect pass and ballast and towers, just waiting for new homes.
Without big price cuts or great new innovations, people are going to churn the huge new supply of used boats and cut deeply into new boat sales.
Old     (sailing216)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-24-2009, 6:50 AM Reply   
The new boat inventory (08 and 09) is way too big for the demand. Dealers have to really give away boats and take a loss. It's going to take 2 years of low production to work through the excess.
Just like houses, it sucks cause I can't easily sell my used boat to upgrade and get an insane deal. If you're buying your first boat, it's a dream come true.
The market will even out in 2 years. Nobody is going to gain market share, they all have the same plan to cut production and try to live while the market evens out.
Old    shooter_08            10-24-2009, 8:41 AM Reply   
It is frustrating that the boat manufactures upgrade the stereo system, add a few LEDs or some billet and then expect to sell the boat for 5K more than last year. I can see an added cost for a new hull or an innovative design upgrade. Donít add some aftermarket bling that I could install later (for less money) and pretend that the boat is much better than the earlier models.

Manufactures can not increase prices 7%-12% every year and still expect to sell boats. No matter what their reasoning for the price increase is.
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       10-24-2009, 8:49 AM Reply   
The cost of materials has gone way way down.Steel,gas,upholstery pretty much everything because people are fighting for a smaller market share.Plus the lower demand has left excess materials drowning the market.They is no logical reason for the increase other than boat companies trying to regain some of there losses.
Old     (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       10-24-2009, 8:53 AM Reply   
this is depressing. I will never be abe to justify a new boat. used i/os for life I guess...
Old     (hayes)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-24-2009, 11:46 AM Reply   
Love it... My 1997 super sport (upgraded to air) is actually appreciating because of the ridiculous new boat market! I do not see how someone can justify paying $60k for a toy. Also, they end up having to finance and pay closer to $100k!!!
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-24-2009, 12:19 PM Reply   
My comments about Epic, Centurion, Sanger taking market share are based on them selling cheaper boats and not raising their prices (they may raise theirs too, I don't know). If everybody raises prices, the few that do not raise prices and make a less expensive boat may be able to steal some market share during this slump. If the "big guys" all make 70k boats and an Epic is 45k, more and more people in that market may buy an Epic (I have no idea what an Epic costs). More and more people may just buy a used boat too. I thought I was going to buy used until I found out I can buy new for the priced of used with all the good deals out there now. That is of course with dealers giving boats away to get rid of them - a temporary situation.
Old     (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-24-2009, 12:56 PM Reply   
What's interesting to me is when I bought my V-210 in 1999, it was in the low 30's, at that time pretty close to the same price as the other two boats I considered, (Super Sport, and 205V)

I believe you can still get a new V-210 in the mid 30's, but how much are the CC's and MC's now?
Old     (highrock)      Join Date: Apr 2008       10-24-2009, 2:13 PM Reply   
Epics are not selling for $45K New Tre. I am pretty sure just the dealer cost for an epic is well above that. I think its ridiculous for the boats to keep getting more expensive, but its been going up all along. Can anyone not remember 9 or 10 years ago what a new boat was going for then? Thats part of the reason the used boat market stayed so strong and high prices for so long.
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-24-2009, 4:03 PM Reply   
Some prices from Wakeworld.

2004 X-Star $64,630
2005 X-Star $65,340
2006 X-Star $68,520
2007 X-Star $74,280
10k increase in 3 years

2004 Malibu Wakesetter VLX $42,941
2005 Malibu Wakesetter VLX $45,800
2006 Malibu Wakesetter VLX $47,900
2007 Malibu Wakesetter VLX $51,587
2008 Malibu Wakesetter VLX $54,921
2009 Malibu Wakesetter VLX $56,984
14k increase in 5 years

2004 Supra Launch ssv $43,995
2005 Supra Launch ssv $45,995
2006 Supra Launch ssv $47,595
2007 Supra Launch ssv $51,995
2008 Supra Launch ssv $55,995
12k increase in 4 years.

The 2010 SSV is 62,500 so that is an 18,500 increase in 6 years.

2004 Moomba XLV $36,995
2005 Moomba XLV $37,995
2006 Moomba XLV $39,995
2007 Moomba XLV $42,595
2008 Moomba XLV $46,995
10k increase in 4 years

The 2005 Supra 24 ssv was 50k when it came out as a new model. For 2010 the boat is 67k. A wopping 17k increase in 5 years. WOW!

All I can say is, what are they thinking? All prices above are with no options.
Old     (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       10-24-2009, 6:15 PM Reply   
Tre,

keep in mind the 22ssv is a totally different boat in 2010 than in 2004. Skiers choice also changed how they lables their msrp's 2 or 3 years ago. On the dealer side, I'm seeing 2009 22ssvs selling for only $3k-$4k more than when the new 22 came out in 2007(during the summer, not including "get rid of it" deals.
Old     (wakeitnofakeit)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-24-2009, 7:57 PM Reply   
Wakecraft dropped their prices. You could get a loaded 2010 for what a dealer paid last year. They moved into a more efficient facility. The question is what do I do with my demo. Glad my son likes it.
Old     (deltawake)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-26-2009, 7:51 AM Reply   
Boat manufacturers will not be able to increase prices significantly for quite some time, because there are still plenty of lightly used, really nice boats selling for much less. Also, the economy will not support the kind of financing that people were using to buy boats. The loose credit phenomenon fueled the increase in boat sales and boat prices up until 2008.

Also, IMO boat companies are going in the wrong direction with fancy electronics and unnecessary bling... These features probably look good to consumers who don't actually put a lot of hours on a boat. As someone who actually uses a boat a significant number of hours per year, I say give me a row of toggle switches that I can glance at and know everything that is on and everything that is off at any point in time. Simple, functional electronics is what I want in a boat. Fancy electronics and unnecessary bling drives up the cost, and has very little to do with what makes a boat enjoyable.

I think that the boat manufacturers that will survive going forward will be the ones who can deliver a quality product for a reasonable price. They must become lean and mean. Unfortunately, plants must be closed, employees must lose their jobs, profit margins may become thinner for awhile. The current trend towards a lot of expensive bling may not be sustainable. Manufacturers should be focusing on putting out simple boats with good wakes for the best price point they can attain IMO.
Old     (jon4pres)      Join Date: May 2004       10-26-2009, 8:05 AM Reply   
Peter,

I think most of the boat companies know that just look at what they have done. If you go to almost any of these dealers looking for a boat they have a "cheaper" solution to get you on the water. (It is very debatable is these solutions are truly a value or cheap enough but they do have a product)
Malibu - Axis
Tige - z1
mastercraft - x1
supra - moomba
moomba - outback v
Old     (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       10-26-2009, 8:19 AM Reply   
A-Dub....you are correct. 1999 started it all. A Malibu Wakesetter went from 32,000 in '98 to over 43,000 for 1999. It was somewhere near an average $10 grand jump for some of the manufacturers. This was the beginng of the Wakeboard craze!!!!
Old    shooter_08            10-26-2009, 11:25 AM Reply   
I would say 1999 was when wakeboarding really became "cool". Everyone wanted a tower (including the guy with an Eliminator or Advantage). The "hot boat" was now an X-Star instead of the offshore go fast boat. Every non-wakeboarder with money or equity to burn wanted the newest blinged out wake boat. The manufactures saw the $ and went with the trend. They must feel they can continue the trend. I think its time to go back to the basics and wake up.
Old     (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-26-2009, 11:42 AM Reply   
Shaun Brinkle - In mid-Sept I demo drove an Epic locally and the price was $45k no questions asked. A week later in an email from the dealer he dropped the price to $43k or $45k and they would pay for a custom hull wrap. Epics can be bought inexpensively relatively speaking. I don't see why anyone would pay more than $50k for an Epic though. I went with a different manufacturer even though the Epic price was incredible to say the least compared to what I have seen elsewhere and what other's are paying.
Old     (mellowman)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-26-2009, 11:46 AM Reply   
"Buyers on this site are looking for the "deal of the century"."

I think this is more a case of people in a buyers market expecting to get way too much for their used boats. I see boats listed on this site all the time, which are extremely over priced in my opinion.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       10-26-2009, 12:26 PM Reply   
Peter is on the money as I see it. But I guess the manufacturers are trying to keep up with our expectations. I think they are just a few years behind. At the peak of the economic boom, we wanted touch screens and lots of gizmos, now I want toggle switches and reliability...I doubt anyone will ever return to that, but who knows. I was critical of the first manufacturers to do this, but now since every one has gone touch screen, I am hosed. I really think replacing one of this in a 10 year old boat is going to be a nightmare...so if your boat has one of these, the boat may not be worth so much in 10 years.

The group of buyers willing to cough up 60K or more for boats is getting smaller...so they are increasingly competing for a smaller pie.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-26-2009, 1:05 PM Reply   
^^Really don't think replacing a screen is a big deal nor would it decrease the value of a boat if it has one in it. All it would require is replacing the LCD screen and that's it. If this was the case your boat with the vdig screen decreases the value of your boat. The technology is not in the screen, it's the computer. The brain is separate and you have alot more issues than a screen to worry about if that goes. That goes for a boat with switches or a screen.
Old     (skull)      Join Date: May 2002       10-26-2009, 2:21 PM Reply   
I bought my 1st (new) VLX in 2000 for $36,000 out the door. Now, the 2010 VLX is going for around $68,000 out the door. I have a 2005 Super Air now and the 2010 210's are running more like $74,000-$77,000. In late 2001 I worked a deal on a new X-Star and offered $39,900. I ended up keeping the VLX but an X-Star is twice that now (but a much bigger boat).
Old     (mikes)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-26-2009, 4:06 PM Reply   
Wakecraft dropped their prices. You could get a loaded 2010 for what a dealer paid last year. They moved into a more efficient facility

This is key. Manufacturers cannot lower prices because they can't afford to. Bu,M/C and CC all have a large amount of overhead compared to the smaller companies and they are selling less boats.Less boats = less revenue w/same operating costs. Gotta make more on each one. The end price reduction to the consumer will be on the dealers end of the profit,not the manufacturers' end. The prices are absolutely going up(at least on paper) but the consumer will most likely not see the end result of that especially in this economy. The mfgs are trying desperately to replace the dealers they have lost so that they can sell more boats. We lost our local CC dealer recently ( who had a large protected market) and they opened 2 new dealers(working on a third) in the area he had alone. Now, instead of him buying 30 boats a year, they will try to sell the three new dealers 30 boats each. Get it? Factory makes money, dealers compete,cutting their margins,blah blah blah. The boat industry is F-ed and it's not getting fixed tomorrow. Anyone know what the margin is from manfg. to dealer to consumer on a say a new CC boat. It's huge. It has to be for them to keep the lights on.
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-26-2009, 4:13 PM Reply   
MikeS, I understand your logic but in 1999 the manufacturers sold fewer boats and the price was around 35k per boat. The same boat in 2010 may be 70k (a 100% increase). Why can they not make money with a lower price boat like they did in 1999? They were not selling tons of wake boats/year in 1999.
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-26-2009, 4:18 PM Reply   
^
agreed... price will go up by whatever that year's standard inflation is ~2/3%

The only way to really stop that is to cut costs... from a manufacturing standpoint other than becoming more lean in some way its really hard to.

Good job wakecraft
Old     (wakeitnofakeit)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-26-2009, 6:34 PM Reply   
Mike I think the dealership you are refering to should sell wakecrafts. I wish you had the chance to check it out this summer. The owner and all the shop guys loved the wakecraft. You can ask them. The problem with wakecraft is the are unable to offer flooring. I think cc made a big mistake with their decision. The good thing is if anyone buys a wakecraft in that area you will be able to service at that dealership.
Old     (mikes)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-26-2009, 7:24 PM Reply   
Tre,
Not sure about the other manufacturers, but I know CC had alot less overhead in 1999 than they do now.In their defense,the cost of doing business has gone up alot as well.They could probably sell alot more boats if they lowered the price,and wind up with the same money in the end,but they'll be working twice as hard for it so it's not likely to happen.It's also a risky proposition that could further damage the already flooded market. I saw something posted in the Rathy thread(no longer @ CC) and there was speculation Nautique may be trying to aquire another brand. My guess....it most likely will not be an inboard brand. Their parent company looks to be an an investment company who will most likely expand into a "pontoon" brand and diversify.
The other problem is that once you start making x amount,it's hard to justify going backwards. This is a phenomenon we're starting to see with the loss of jobs. People working for $30 an hr would rather collect unemployment than work for $20. Perhaps some mfgs. are the same way?

Dan,
Those guys had good things to say about your Wakecraft. They will do fine w/ Tige. I think short term Nautique may have some success with their new dealers up here,but I also believe that they are going to regret their decision down the road.
Old     (mikes)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-26-2009, 7:54 PM Reply   
Forgot this: copied and pasted from Bill Yeargin interview in Boating Industry Mag

Bill Yeargin: The answers here were also quite varied. At this point, everyone in our industry is working in a segment that is struggling, and many people may not enter the business they are in today. It does seem reasonable to assume that some consolidation will happen through the combination of excess capacity to be able to sustain and be profitable at lower volume
I read that as "Build less,charge more" in a polite, unsuspecting kind of way
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       10-27-2009, 6:46 AM Reply   
Its all BS.Everything cost less now and even when it didn't the cost of a part in 99 verses today is not that much more.The wakeboard craze drove the industry to where it is and large profit margins are a thing of the past now.All manufactures are trying to regain some of that profit but it will never be the same again.My guess is it will take five years or so for companies to fold or revert to the specialty market they started as back in the ninties.
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: WI       10-27-2009, 8:29 AM Reply   
I wonder how much of the money it takes to build a boat is labor and how much is the actual raw material/parts costs. Raw material costs are all down and Labor costs really never went up in the last 10 years. Assuming most manufacturers are still in the same building as 10 years ago, rent/mortgage, electric, insurance, etc are all pretty static costs. The only component that went up is the health care costs for employees but that did not make the boat price double. Too bad they are not publicly traded. I suspect we would see massive profit margin increases in the last 10 years as the sport grew. What now? As a manufacturer you can't go from 2300 boats per year to 650 boat per year and expect to maintain or increase net profit and profit margins. I really think the manufacturers think this is possible. So the only question left is how many and which inboard menufacturers will go out of business in the next few years?
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-27-2009, 9:17 AM Reply   
^^You don't take into account local business taxes, EPA VOC emmision requirement changes, etc.. I don't see how any business can survive it California it's a joke.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-27-2009, 9:37 AM Reply   
Makes sence to me. Why would you discount NEW boat's when there is hundreds of Brand new year old boat's sitting on lot's that dealers need to sell. You wanna buy a brand new boat whats the big deal about 7% to 12% up charge. NUT UP OR SHUT UP. LOL j/k Another thought. Now a day's company's need to make money just to stay alive and make up for lost profits. I dont think the Idea or notion that its ok just to move another unit for the sake of it. Question "If you couldn't make money/profit on NEW item's would you continue to make them? IMO No! You would stay home and watch TV or start and new line of work. With out trying to sound like a A$$. "People" Each year the cost of living/thing's go's up weather you say so or not I don't care. But they do. People need to make a profit and a living. IMO the idea or the trend that you deserve a discout for a item that costs more and more to make each year is part of the reason we are in the state we are in. You want a discount go after a 07 08 or 09 you want a new boat Pay up sucker!
Old     (justridin)      Join Date: Oct 2002       10-27-2009, 9:42 AM Reply   
"^^You don't take into account local business taxes, EPA VOC emmision requirement changes, etc.. I don't see how any business can survive it California it's a joke."

I would wager that there will never be another Malibu built in Merced.

The Economist magazine printed that GM would need to sell 10,000,000 vehicles under their new business model to break even, and some people believe the towboat companies have been getting rich in a market niche that at the best of times built maybe 12,000 boats. If this was a lucrative market segment companies like Toyota (old Epic) and Sea Ray (Ski Ray) would have stayed in longer than they did. I am sure the stronger companies did just fine prospering as the prices and sales volumes increased in recent years but how things go for them in the next few years will tell us whom the smart ones are. There will always be towboat buyers and they want all the bells and whistles on their boats. New towboats at cheaper prices is just not going to happen (except Wakecraft).
Old     (jon4pres)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2009, 9:45 AM Reply   
To me it seems . . .
All of the big wakeboat companies are tying to make as much money as possible and they have found that it is more profitable to build high end boats for high end clients. They are spending research money on bling, wraps, graphics, touch screens, and stereos rather than hulls that produce great wakes. I think the best proof is that Mastercraft is spending their research money building yachts while their ultimate wake machine's hull has not changed in 5 years(I know everyone loves the star but you can not tell me that in the last 5 years they could not make something better).

I applaud companies like Epic, Wakecraft, Sanger, Moomba, and axis for still building wakeboats for wakeboarding.
Old     (mikes)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-27-2009, 9:46 AM Reply   
If my numbers are accurate(which were from a fairly reliable source) one of the big three looks something like this:

Retail price minus 35% = dealer cost(roughly)
Dealer price minus 45% = mfg cost(roughly)

I do not work in the boat industry,but have no reason to believe these figures are not accurate. If someone in the industry thinks these are innaccurate please feel free to let me know. Does anyone know what the average build qty. per year for one of the big three was when the going was good(2000-2005),including all ski/wakeboard boats vs. what it is now?
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-27-2009, 9:58 AM Reply   
MikeS, I think that those numbers might be over exaggerated and certainly would vary greatly by manufacturer. Those numbers show an Axis at 40k only costing 14300 to build which is impossible.

It would also mean a 100k MSRP X-Star costs about 36k to build which is definitely closer to a reality (in my guesstimate) but still probably a few grand off.
Old     (mike2001)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-27-2009, 10:15 AM Reply   
Jon- don't forget Standard Boats
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-27-2009, 10:32 AM Reply   
"I would wager that there will never be another Malibu built in Merced."

I don't doubt that at all. Those guys at the Tenn plant need to learn how to tape lines though for gelcoat. I'm glad I got one of the last Cali boats.
Old     (mikes)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-27-2009, 11:26 AM Reply   
Ian,
I agree with the numbers not working on the Axis,but I do think as you stated that those #'s on a 100K boat are "somewhat" in the ballpark. I'm sure the Axis is built on a much lesser margin than that as well is as any other entry level/ price point boats. Those "king of bling" boats is where the bread and butter is. I paid almost $19K off MSRP on my 05 SANTE in Dec. of 05 and I know the dealer still made money on me. I can also reasonably assume that the factory is making more on the dealer than the dealer is on the consumer.
Old     (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       10-27-2009, 11:54 AM Reply   
This is for the boat mfr's:

"I WILL NEVER BUY A NEW BOAT FROM ONE OF YOUR DEALERSHIPS. DO YOU THINK WE ARE STUPID??"

I have been in my Supra now for 14 years, and I love it!. Yes Its old and only seats 4-5 people, no the paint Isnt really shinny anymore, yes i want more weight and a bigger wake. BUT I WILL NEVER SPEND MY SMART MONEY AT ONE OF YOUR DEALERSHIPS! I have spent over $20,000 in upgrades and crap for fun. i have money, a brand new house, a business and 3-nice cars. I am almost debt free, and have 1-credit card. And I am not over living my pay. What I don't have is $50,000-$60,000-$70,000 and yes $80,000 to spend on triple axle trailers with 22" on em, or $12,000 upgraded stereo, or $4-$5-$6000 to spend on a tower that only keeps growing in price not size, LOL! Stupid stuff! yes, they are nice to look at, but In this day and time Its just stupid. And now for 2010 I'm seeing touch screen dashes that makes the F-16 look stupid and old. read my lips. YOUR GOING THE WRONG WAY, WE CAN'T RELY ON DAD TO TO BUY US A BOAT!

What i need is choices, a wakesetter, ssv or ?? With the basic nice stuff, not over the top one off custom pieces. i know, you will say I'm not your market, But I have been doing this for a long time and i have spent alot of money..Its just going somewhere else and your missing YOUR market.

WOW! that felt really good, ooh the sun is out and no rain? i think I'll take my other girlfriend out for a spin..I love her..jet
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-27-2009, 12:14 PM Reply   
^^^LOL. Andrew quit beer bonging redbull. 4 words for you, To Each His Own.
Old     (jon4pres)      Join Date: May 2004       10-27-2009, 12:19 PM Reply   
In all fairness these guys are building what they can sell. Just becuase you do not want an 80k boat does not mean they are wrong to make them. Obviously someone is buying these boats.

I think we just need to realize that it is not 1999 any more and MC, CC, BU, Supra are not marketing to the same clients they were then. If all you want is nice basic stuff there are boats out there that can deliver that.
Old     (duckboat)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-27-2009, 12:23 PM Reply   
Credit is just to easy these days! I blame that for the huge price jumps and its not just boats.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       10-27-2009, 12:25 PM Reply   
Nu bu,

I am still surprised by your optimism. My 10 year old computer does not even have a USB port. Connecting a new screen is going to be difficult. I am mostly worried about replacing the computer, not the screen. I think the two are integrated in most of these.

The MC VDIG screen is a round screen....10 years from now, it is really not going to be very easy to replace. And if the computer fails, you will need to match the two together...just seems like it is not going to be easy.
Old     (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       10-27-2009, 12:38 PM Reply   
Oooh! Axis? never heard of them. but i just watched the vid demo ride. Hey! Malibu..Supra..Correct Craft. Buy some sandwich meat for dinner..your going to need it.

Off to Axis I go....
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-27-2009, 12:53 PM Reply   
talltigeguy I can crawl underneath the drivers dash and change the computer out in less than 5 minutes, can't get any easier than that.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-27-2009, 12:55 PM Reply   
Andrew I hope Axis does do well since Malibu owns them.
Old    shooter_08            10-27-2009, 1:04 PM Reply   
To G and the others defending the mark-ups:

I think most of us do not have issues with the boat manufactures making a good profit. This subject always gets a lot of response because there is a feeling that many of the inboard boat manufactures have lost sight of what they once did, build boats for boarders and skiers.

It comes down to being true to the sports that made them what they are. When boat manufactures target the rich to sell fewer boats at a higher price, they have abandoned the average rider and the values that made them. This type of business model will only hurt them when it's no longer "cool" to drive a wake boat.

Many wakeboarders are screaming for a better wake boat without the bling. Boarders will buy what is enjoyable to ride behind at an affordable price.

Boat manufacture should make as much money as they can. Just donít tell everyone that core wakeboarders and skiers love your product when 95% of your so called market could not afford to buy one.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-27-2009, 1:53 PM Reply   
Some people will never be happy no matter what you do. It was only a few years ago people wanted all the B.S and Bling the more fancy crap the better. Yea I remember people saying they wanted all this stuff. Now that people lost their 80k job driving a fork lift and the house that they over payed for and were using as a credit card is NOW worth nothing boat's are some how overpriced and loaded with to much stuff? How come people didn't complain back then when they were paying 150K for a new X star with 22's LOL pretty funny.
I guess when them money's flowing it's no big deal.
I do see boat makers trying to make a diffrent boat for every nich. People want a price point boat they come out with it and some how it's not cheep enough and dosen't have all the bells and whistles that the expencieve one has. Hummm I wonder why is beacuse even at 1/2 price people don't want to be rolling around in a boat with half the bling and no option's. Hey if you think New boats are over priced and don't meet your expetations ect then get a used boat and fix it up to your spec's. There is a tone of great stuff out there for cheep. IMO for the Money a slightly used SAN 210 or X2 or Wakesetter with a nice system is hard to beat.
My bet is when people get back to work and have money to spend these so called Overpriced boats won't be so Overpriced.

That being said. I don't see how a NEW 2010 boat is any better than a 2009. So yea I agree can or should they expect to get 7 to 12% more for a diffrent graphic or tower or a useless touch screen. NO! some people just gotta have then newest latest greatest. For your people "Nut up or Shut up". LOL

IMO I haven't seen anything NEW (gotta have)in boating since the Hybrid EPIC.
Old    shooter_08            10-27-2009, 2:15 PM Reply   
G:
I looked at the new boats, but purchased a 03 SANTE for the same reasons you mentioned. I personally just wanted a good wake and never wanted all the bling (even when I made 80K as a forklift driver). Bling is nice, but where do you draw the line? I guess that is where we are at today.

Do I need a stereo that makes my ears bleed? Do I need a video camera mounted to my tower? Do I need an in dash display that plays DVD's and controls my ballast at the same time? How many LED's do I really need? Does everything on my boat need to be made out of billet? At what point do you say enough is enough and ditch the bells and whistles to focus on wakeboarding.

"My bet is when people get back to work and have money to spend these so called Overpriced boats won't be so Overpriced."

Those overpriced boats were only affordable to most because of easy financing and home equity. I doubt those days will be back anytime soon. Everyone better take good care of their used boats for the sake of wakeboarding.
Old     (mikes)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-27-2009, 3:32 PM Reply   
It comes down to being true to the sports that made them what they are. When boat manufactures target the rich to sell fewer boats at a higher price, they have abandoned the average rider and the values that made them. This type of business model will only hurt them when it's no longer "cool" to drive a wake boat.


See "HARLEY DAVIDSON" lol!
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       10-28-2009, 11:26 AM Reply   
Deep down I think we all can agree that a hundred grand for a fiberglass hull with a smallblock is just crazy.Yes,when people didn't actually have to pay for things it wasn't a big deal but times have changed and the people who make up the real market just won't foot the bill.The difference now is I have money to buy a boat and the credit monsters don't so that makes me the primary market.Just for the record I don't need a touch screen.I have one in my truck that never gets touched.I don't need chrome do dads and massive complicated electronics.I just need gas,weight and a small stereo.
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       10-28-2009, 12:25 PM Reply   
Brock,

On the new boats, you won't be able to operate your boat if the screen goes out. Probably will start and can use the throttle, but not much else.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-28-2009, 2:13 PM Reply   
^^^My boat has guages as well.
Old     (jimmy_z)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-28-2009, 3:52 PM Reply   
Nu bu,

Can I borrow your rose tinted glasses?????

Wanna compare the cost differences between a toggle switch and a touch screen????

Or the cost to replace the ECU that is used to control the screen????

Yeah they are nice at the boat show but they are completely unnecessary for wakeboat applications.
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       10-28-2009, 5:26 PM Reply   
Im going to put twenty fours on my boat trailer so you guys have something new to talk about this winter.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-28-2009, 5:32 PM Reply   
Jim you can borrow the glasses anytime. I never tried to compare the cost between a toggle and an LCD screen since there really is no comparison. The ecu to control the screen is the same one to control all the controls on the boat and is about $1200 since you're interested, it's the same unit that controls the mux switches and stereo.

Who said an LCD screen was necessary, it's nothing more than a cool gadget really? I merely stated I didn't agree that it reduced the value of a boat 10 years from now regardless of brand, and that I could still use my boat if the LCD went out while on the water due to the fact I had guages also that displayed any information I needed.

So I guess with all that said it does look kind of rosey and having an LCD screen really isn't so bad after all.
Old     (jimmy_z)      Join Date: Jun 2009       10-28-2009, 8:35 PM Reply   
"So I guess with all that said it does look kind of rosey and having an LCD screen really isn't so bad after all."

I couldnt agree more...short term delusions typically have a positive outlook.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-28-2009, 8:46 PM Reply   
If you say so .
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-29-2009, 5:27 AM Reply   
""So I guess with all that said it does look kind of rosey and having an LCD screen really isn't so bad after all."

I couldnt agree more...short term delusions typically have a positive outlook."

I agree with you jimmy z. My next boat (prob. buying new one in 2011 or 12) is not going to have an LCD screen. Old school gauges and an 8-track player for me.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-29-2009, 6:26 AM Reply   
^^Can I recommend a Standard brand wakeboat for you then.
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-29-2009, 6:32 AM Reply   
I personally don't understand this argument at all. If you don't want the bling and LCD don't get it. Period. There are base model boats on the market right now that will do what you want for less money. Those of you saying you can't find those boats I wonder how hard you have really looked. (now if your favorite brand is not producing these entry level boats, then take it up with your favorite brand, not the entire industry) If simple is what you want, then buy simple. If you want the blinged out, buy that. Personally I think all the options are great. Bring on the LCD's, bring on the technology, just make it an option.
Old     (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       10-29-2009, 6:35 AM Reply   
hey lil nu bu..quit being such a tool. Jet
Old     (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       10-29-2009, 6:36 AM Reply   
Nu bu,
Will your perfect pass work without the touch screen? On an MC or tige it won't. Tige's ballast won't work without the touch screen, IIUC.
Old     (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-29-2009, 6:40 AM Reply   
Bite me Jet.

Talltige, don't think the cruise will work without the screen good point, I know the ballast will though.
Old     (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       10-29-2009, 6:47 AM Reply   
Over all boat prices are out of control. If you Americans think you are paying too much come up here to Canada and then you will understand that your prices are better them the boats sold in Canada. Even with the exchange rate. That is why alot of Canadians are going to the states and buying boats.

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