My Sanger has a fixed Trim Plate on the back which is an extended line of the bottom of the hull plane. I know my friend has an adjustable tab on the back of his exact model although different year and I have been told it really changes the shape of the wake. I'm just now starting to think about changing my plate to an adjustable one. Before I do it I want to try adding a wedge on the plate to simulate the plate being down
My question is what are the angles of the adjustable plates, tabs, taps ....... Say taps 1 compared to taps 4 on a Tige or the angle of any of the other boats. We have a great wave but I have started to think about how much better it can be? Is a 22 degree angle enough of a difference from straight out the back like I have now?
All opinions and information greatly appreciated!!
Frank: I dont know anything about all of the angles. I did swap my fixed plate for a trim tab on my 08 Avy. Great mod that allowed you to fine tune the wave. Nothing drastic, just let you clean it up a little. If you decide to buy one, this guy puts kits together and sales them for $250.
The Taps plate works in conjunction with the convex v hull.The boat naturally wants to settle with the transom deep in the water and the bow up.That would be Taps at 8[biggest wake] As you move the plate down taps 7,6,5,4 ect the bow comes down and the wake is smaller.Most Tige owners find the Taps in the 3,4,5 range best for surfing.I'm not familiar with the Sanger hull,so i don't know how your plate will affect it.
The Taps plate works in conjunction with the convex v hull.The boat naturally wants to settle with the transom deep in the water and the bow up.That would be Taps at 8[biggest wake] As you move the plate down taps 7,6,5,4 ect the bow comes down and the wake is smaller.Most Tige owners find the Taps in the 3,4,5 range best for surfing.I'm not familiar with the Sanger hull,so i don't know how your plate will affect it.
You just described how a trim tab works That is all the TAPS plate is. Tige can call it what what they want. Kinda like Supra/Centurion calling a wake plate. Just a fancy name for Trim tab.
The Taps plate works in conjunction with the convex v hull. The boat naturally wants to settle with the transom deep in the water and the bow up. If you remove the Taps plate on a Tige, the boat would never get on Plane. This is what Robert was referring to (Convex V Design) Way different from what Centurion and or other brands are doing with their trim plates.
"You must be Egor"
"Now its pronounced Igor"
"But they told me it was "Egor"
"Well they were wrong now wernt they"
Lakesurfer is right, same dang thing, doing the same dang thing. Trimtab, Bennet trim tab, Wakeplate, Taps = a plate with an actuator on it that makes it go up or down.
Last edited by duramat; 03-24-2012 at 10:50 PM.
Reason: gramar
There is no question that all the plates are basically the same, whether its taps, trim tab, whatever. The difference is that a hull with a hook in the back is not going to benefit as much. There is a point where you put the plate up allowing the boat to sink deeper in the water. A hooked hull will only sink so much before the hook counteracts it. A non planing or convex hull will allow the boat to sink farther down when the plate is raised up. That is the difference.
I think the one point most can agree on, is that when it comes to wakesurfing, any hull/boat would probably gain some benefit from an adjustable trim tab.
I think the one point most can agree on, is that when it comes to wakesurfing, any hull/boat would probably gain some benefit from an adjustable trim tab.
Absolutely agree.
My point it that this thread has nothing to due with a Tige hull. I believe Frank has a Sanger. So describing TAPS (especially if you truly believe in the Convex hull) is worthless to Frank since he has a Sanger.
I am just trying to tell Frank, whose hull is closer to my Avy since it does not have the mysterious Convex hull that it will adding a TAPS/Wake Plate/Trim tab will adjust the attitude of the boat up/down. It will help clean the face of the wave up. But that this mod is truly fine tuning. I definitely suggest adding a Bennett/Lenco trim tab. But just to be clear, it will no add push or that much size to wave.
My point it that this thread has nothing to due with a Tige hull. I believe Frank has a Sanger. So describing TAPS (especially if you truly believe in the Convex hull) is worthless to Frank since he has a Sanger.
I am just trying to tell Frank, whose hull is closer to my Avy since it does not have the mysterious Convex hull that it will adding a TAPS/Wake Plate/Trim tab will adjust the attitude of the boat up/down. It will help clean the face of the wave up. But that this mod is truly fine tuning. I definitely suggest adding a Bennett/Lenco trim tab. But just to be clear, it will no add push or that much size to wave.
Have you ever seen one of there mysterious convex V Hulls? Are they as rare as Bigfoot? Do they really work? Inquiring minds would like to know!
Have you ever seen one of there mysterious convex V Hulls? Are they as rare as Bigfoot? Do they really work? Inquiring minds would like to know!
Why dont you post a pic? I have never seen a pic of a Tige. Especially of a Blue and White one.
Note: I am just teasing Ragboy with the "mysterious Convex hull" comment. Just having fun. But I do stand by my advice that for Frank the trim tab is a great mod but dont expect it to add a lot of push/height to his wave. Weight can only do that.
Why dont you post a pic? I have never seen a pic of a Tige. Especially of a Blue and White one.
Note: I am just teasing Ragboy with the "mysterious Convex hull" comment. Just having fun. But I do stand by my advice that for Frank the trim tab is a great mod but dont expect it to add a lot of push/height to his wave. Weight can only do that.
I understand now i was just trying to help Frank Wolter.If you read his post he uses TAPS as a reference. I also stated i wasn't familiar with a Sanger,but i'm very familiar with that Blue/White Tige. I'm not a frequent visitor to the surf forum.But just so you know i do like to stir the pot and joke around all the time.So now i know you like to mess with rag boy it's no problem here,he is big enough to take care of himself.
my 2002 v230 sanger has Tons of Push and a Big Fat Wave like stated above i was thinking about getting a longer cleaner wave ...... when the kids are skimming they like to almost empty 1 bag to clean up the wave ....... i was kinda thinking or hoping that with my wave and a trim plate that maybe i would be able to lenghthen and clean up the wave with adjusting the plate down only
lots of info so i want to add on a temporary wedge shape to the bottom of my plate that extends straight out now to act like ive adjusted a trim plate down before i add on a tab ........ does anybody have an idea about the angle down i should start with ....... 6" at the back of the plate almost gives me 25 degree angle
do you guys think that would be a good starting point or should i do more or less?
Frank: I think a combo of speed/trim tab will be your answer. On my Enzo 244, I have a buddy that skims and we use the trim tab to add height/shorten the wave.
Frank: I think a combo of speed/trim tab will be your answer. On my Enzo 244, I have a buddy that skims and we use the trim tab to add height/shorten the wave.
Frank: just as an example of what type of set up we run
Surf: 11.2mph and trim tab around 25%
Skim: 10.5mph and trim tab around 75%
@lake, I have a question. Typically, you would raise the wake plate to make wake bigger/steeper and then down like you said for shallower for skim. Makes sense. But unless I am missing something, you could not add a plate to a boat and make a wake any bigger/steeper than it is without the wake plate, since a boat without the wake plate should act like a boat with one, if the plate was ALL the way up (if installed correctly). Correct? So the only benefit frank would get is to adjust down. Or maybe he would find that for skim 75% down works great, and for surf 25% helps the shape of his wake or remove prop wash.
@lake, I have a question. Typically, you would raise the wake plate to make wake bigger/steeper and then down like you said for shallower for skim. Makes sense. But unless I am missing something, you could not add a plate to a boat and make a wake any bigger/steeper than it is without the wake plate, since a boat without the wake plate should act like a boat with one, if the plate was ALL the way up (if installed correctly). Correct? So the only benefit frank would get is to adjust down. Or maybe he would find that for skim 75% down works great, and for surf 25% helps the shape of his wake or remove prop wash.
Does that make sense?
Ragboy: This is from my observation of driving the boat so here is what I find.
The wake plate really only impact the actual size of the wave a little. this is more of a prop wash issue balanced with wave height. So for me, slowing down from 11.2mph to 10.5mph increases the height of the wave and shortens the length. Pushing the plate down (which pushes the bow down) then takes the size of the wave down a little but pushes the prop wash way over to the side. Since skimmers love short/steep the wash really needs to get pushed over quickly.
Now the opposite for surf. Speeding up lengthens the wave but shortens the height (speeding up also pushes bow down). So I move the tab up causing the bow to rise and increasing the size of the wave. Leaving the trim tab around 25% pushed the prop wash over just not as fast.
Again, this is not science for me. I just weigh the boat, turn my head around and tweak the wave on the fly. But in general, this works for me. I control height/length of wave with speed and control prop wash (as much as possible) with trim tab. It definitely is a balancing act since they both interact with each other.
understand, that makes sense. I am guessing with the hook in the boat that bringing the taps up won't let the boat sink down more and therefore adjust the height at all. I have never measured, but I would guess we can get up to 6 inches in height when bringing taps up. Will have to figure out a way to actually measure some day. But all the boats I have been on other than tige I never played or adjusted. Well, the sanger a bit, but that's it.
On my Avy we just surfed. I never touched the trim tab. It was always even with the back of the boat. The Enzo seems to need the trim down just a little for surf. I only have one buddy that skims. So having to use the trim tab that much is really pretty new to me.
I would guess we can get up to 6 inches in height when bringing taps up.
One comment on this, my wave has this type of impact if I dont adjust the speed. For example, if I was at 11.2 mph and went from 0% to 100% on trim tab it would cause a noticeable decrease in height. However, slowing down from 11.2 mph to 10.5 mph easily offsets this.
Most definitely. The tige convex v hull is a non planing hull. The boat may not even plane if the taps is all the way up, unless maybe when its empty. On a Tige convex v hull, the taps plate is not an accessory, its a critical part of the planing surface. Without the hook in the boat, it is vital. But the benefit is that it allows much greater adjustment. When I am in the back of the boat, and we are surfing and go from taps say at 1 (down) to 6 or so (8 is all the way up) you can visually see the boat sink deeper in the water and the wave shape and height change. I am embedding this video right in the appropriate spot, but you can see the wave change with the chalk line I add in the video. I will have to do this again when the water is perfectly smooth.
I am not sure, but I am guessing this is also the reason why our boat only uses about 4GPH surfing, even heavily weighted. Some of our friends use 8-10 GPH surfing. Not such a big deal at $2/gallon, but at $5, makes my wife happy. ;-)
Last edited by ragboy; 03-25-2012 at 8:36 PM.
Reason: typo
Yes, that is what I meant by "most definitely". It has varied with the different boats, RZ2, RZ4, Z3, 24Ve. The RZ2 for instance, will porpoise with just family weight with taps only at 4 or so at like 25 or so. Taps down to 2 or 3 is needed. As you speed up you can bring taps up a bit, and just like an outboard or I/O if I am driving say 30 MPH with taps all the way down, and then raise taps a bit to just before porpoise, the speed will increase due to less resistance, maybe to 32 or so. I haven't really played with the Z3 enough at higher speeds yet. Mostly 11mph. ;-)
Ok, I will take your word for it. I have been on several other boats, and def in chase with the events and polar bear and stuff, but haven't taken any for a spin around the lake at higher speeds. I actually rarely do that with my own boat. We usually hit the end of the no wake and surf. :-) I can only tell you precisely what the boats we have had for long periods do.
I am assuming you are referring to the porpoising at higher speeds with the plate up, BTW. Unless you are also saying that your boat and all others with a wake plate get approximately 4GPH or less wakesurfing with plenty of weight and a comparable motor to the PCM 343 or 409.
I should note that I haven't completely tested GPH on the Z3, I assume it will be similar, but I will let you know if it isn't.
I have a manual plate. You can chase your tail playing with it all day with a pair of Channies. I plan on putting an adjustable one for more control on the fly (near future)
Havnt dove into the science of what Im burning per hour
I would have to imagine that an adjustable plate would benefit any boat, and especially if you guys (re lake surfer) have the hookup for only $250, sounds like a no brainer. Definitely beats getting back there with channel locks. ;-)
I am def glad the plates are very reliable, other than syncing the adjustment up to my touch screen on a rare occasion, I have never had an issue. I think its pretty rare.
Im just gonna through this out there, the comment about the tige not being able to plane without the wake plate is complete rubbish. The boat will plane just as any other, and yes it is going to porpoise like crazy, however, you are correct in saying that it is vital to the running surface of the hull. All the trim tab/wake plate is for is just adjusting the attitude of the boat.
To the OP, does your current wake plate have some sort of adjustable strut on it. Ive seen older supra with the plate, but it had an adjustable strut so that you can manually adjust the wake.
Im with Thomas on that. Everyone I know on their boats is throttling it getting on plane and then adjusting their wakeplate to get whatever effect behind their boat when wakeboarding. Surfing is no different IMO.
OK, like I said, if empty or no weight it WILL plane with the taps up, but I can tell you that our 24Ve with a few extra people and no ballast won't plain with the taps all the way up. It only has a 340MP engine and its a big boat, which I am sure is part of it. The RZ2 wasn't as noticeable. I guess when I say "won't plane" I should say, "with great difficulty". Because I am guessing if I buried the throttle and waited long enough it probably would. Anyway, I will test it on the Z3, with various weights and let you know. Sounds fun.
Last edited by ragboy; 03-25-2012 at 9:51 PM.
Reason: typo
6" travel down is way too much. You probably don't need more than 1" below vertical to be very effective. I added an adjustable tab to my V210 which has no tab (not even fixed) and yes it does allow you to lengthen out the pocket a lot and clean up the wake. This is a pic behind the little old 210 with the tab adjusted for length of pocket (skim board)
On your 24ve, it doesn't sound like it was propped right. Granted thats not a big motor for that size boat, but it shouldnt struggle that much empty. A buddy of mine had a 24ve and just had (I believe it was just a Vortec 5.3 or 5.7) and his planed fine with a lot of weight and taps at any position. What altitude do you run at.
We run at 800 feet, and it was stock with a acme 537, but once we started wakesurfing with more weight, we went to a 1237. It planes fine as long as you have the taps around 3 to 4 or so. When you really notice, is say you take the boat out of the slip and head out and get past the no wake buoys and hit it, but taps is still on 7 from the last session. The bow just shoots up and I am sure it would plane eventually, but not very quickly at all, even with the 1237. Put the taps down to 2-3 and it planes very fast. This is MUCH more noticeable on the 24ve, but not as much on the RZ2. I really haven't spent enough time to notice on the Z3, my guess is it is more like the 24Ve since its bigger but also noticeably a$$ heavy. Also, with the 409 engine, it probably won't be as pronounced either.
So do your guys trim tabs or whatever go past 45 degrees down from the bottom of the hull?
And when you say plates are up is that past the line of the hull?
I'm going to run by the boat tomorrow but I think my straight out the back fixed plate is larger then the tabs I have seen that adjust on the other boats. My plate also runs under the hull and bolts in ........ I guess cut it off at back of the boat and add the trim tab ........ I'll take pics also
On my Avy, the plate attached to the hull. The only issue I had was the the fixed plate had a different bolt pattern. As for how far the plates travel, I cant remember exactly.
You can read about the two main types here. As an FYI, my Enzo 244 runs the Bennet trim tab. On the 08 Avy, I replaced the fixed plate with the Lenco.
i have a fixed plate on my avy, and i also do not like getting out the channies! So I basically leave it even with the hull. you don’t really get much movement out of these anyway. I think Sangers are pretty close to the same hull as an Avy??? I could be way off base, but thought I heard someone talking about it.
Adding a trim tab will allow you to fine tune your wake. Add more weight for size and use the plate for shape. Thats it.. It's that simple. Everything else is hype and marketing.
Thanks for the cross-posting, I was wondering where I was getting hits from.
IMO an adjustable wakeplate/trim tab should be standard on all boats for a number of reasons, wake shaping, refining boat handling in a number of conditions, etc.
Jeez, I missed this when it was first up. Frank, I took off the fixed plate on my 215 and put on the Bennett adjustable plate. I thought about just hinging the fixed plate and adding a couple pistons but decided the change was better for me. The Sanger hull can deal with most anything well but this was a good change on my boat. I can tune the wake more easily for surfing and boarding. I can still start fast and maximize the wake very quickly.
Aside from the wake tuning there is a great benefit in being able to adjust the attitude of the hull in varying conditions. If you are following waves in a storm my boat is safer with the plate up. If I'm heading into the waves the ride is much better and I make better headway with the plate down. I can trim the plate up 70% and pick up a couple MPH in top speed if I feel the need. With the plate up or down the hull never porpoises or rides poorly.
All the way down is less that 1/4" below level with the flat delta pad on the bottom o the hull. You don't need more down that that. Up all the way with the Bennett tab and the plate is free of the water so is not having any effect at planing speeds, but it has a little at surf speeds. The Bennett Tab is 1" shorter than the fixed plate and the same width.
Art so I completely understand you : You are saying you only have the trim plate where it goes 1/4" lower at the back edge from the stock flat plate out the back?
and you end up using the plate in the above the stock fixed plate position more?
I was thinking also along the line of cutting and hinging the existing plate but was going to try and make it more of a manual adjustment
So in your opinion this would be a good thing to add to the boat?
Where did you find the room to mount everything also?
Yes, the back of the adjustable Bennett tab only goes down about 1/4" from the stock plate's position. I could make it go down a bit further by putting in a washer between the piston end and the back of the raised lip on the plate where it bolts, but I have not felt it necessary to try. Most of the time I am doing any watersport other than skiing the pate is up 5-25%. Surfing I have it up 50% or more.
The stock plate is through bolted to the hull and is not hard to remove. You could hinge it with a heavy duty aluminum piano hinge welded tot the plate where you cut it or with a stainless piano hinge on top. If you do the latter you have a break in the smooth bottom which might mess the wake some. The Bennett tab I got from Sanger as a complete kit. It screws on to where the original plate was through bolted. Drilling and putting in the screws was a lot of work. (I broke a couple screws to make my life miserable) It was easy to plug the bolt holes as the new plate covered them from the outside.
I think it is a major benefit to be able to adjust the trim setting on any planing hull boat. I am very glad that I did the mod, although it is fairly expensive to get the kit. You could just take off the existing plate and try it with nothing on. Silicone on a piece of plywood with the existing bolts, temporarily. Then you can see what the boat is like with the plate all the way up, and how much difference the hull has with the plate attached when you do starts.
The kit had long wires for everything. There is a pump and reservoir that I mounted on a vertical stringer behind the seat backs under the gunnel. I installed the rocker switch and indicator gauge on the front right flat panel of the hull just above and forward of the throttle.
That is all the TAPS plate is. Tige can call it what what they want. Kinda like Supra/Centurion calling a wake plate. Just a fancy name for Trim tab.
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